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Speaker 1: Welcome to Sportsfix, your daily dose of sport by.
Speaker 2: Hello there, welcome on into the Sports Fix podcast. My
Speaker 2: name is Darcy Waldgrave. Got me for the duration. It
Speaker 2: is a Wednesday. It's the twelfth of Mark twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: Coming up on today's Fix, We're going to talk with
Speaker 2: Mike Hester. He's on rugby Participation Development Manager. As the
Speaker 2: game looks at implementing a number of changes across the
Speaker 2: junior rugby ranks, including the sizes of the team, the
Speaker 2: sizes of the field.
Speaker 3: The list goes.
Speaker 2: On, why are they doing it, what do they want
Speaker 2: to achieve? What is the actual proposal? Mike joins us
Speaker 2: on that shortly, Formula one gets underway this weekend at
Speaker 2: Albert Park in Melbourne. It is a massive weekend for
Speaker 2: Liam Lawson. Finally here's a full time drive.
Speaker 3: It is with Red Bull.
Speaker 2: What faces them for this opening weekend and indeed the
Speaker 2: rest of the season.
Speaker 3: I'll let you know.
Speaker 2: After that we open the doors of the chamber and
Speaker 2: get Smith News Talks. He'd beat Rugby editor joins us
Speaker 2: as we take a look at the big sports stories
Speaker 2: of the day. That's our plan for the fixed.
Speaker 4: So let's do it in other news.
Speaker 2: Let's tune in now to the voices of sport for today.
Speaker 2: Discipline that's the constant buzzword and Super Rugby and Hurricanes
Speaker 2: prop Paselio Tossi is well aware of his team's weakness.
Speaker 2: They've been given six yellow cards in four games.
Speaker 5: Out just thought discipline. It was probably number one, giving
Speaker 5: away too much penalties and like a strong team like
Speaker 5: one and when we let them in tight twenty two,
Speaker 5: a team that will just capitalize on that. So we
Speaker 5: can get the penalty countdown and keep the yellow cards
Speaker 5: till the minimum, and then I feel like we could
Speaker 5: probably see someone broke.
Speaker 2: Billionaire Jim Ratcliffe, fresh after pulling the poor Poor Me card,
Speaker 2: is now crowing about a brand new stadium for EPL
Speaker 2: strugglers Manchester United, after fleeing from a Zordwake's contract is
Speaker 2: now promising the world and I'm sure people trust his
Speaker 2: latest flight of fancy.
Speaker 6: I think it will create enormous starling for the North
Speaker 6: of England. I'm for Manchester and Oxford economics who've done
Speaker 6: a study on it. Reckon that that would be in
Speaker 6: the reason seven billion pounds per annum.
Speaker 2: Well you think that, I just think it should pay
Speaker 2: your bills. And Jastevanga, former Warrior who now applies as trade.
Speaker 3: With Manly, has had a super tough time after.
Speaker 2: His great friend and former Junior Warriors teammate Roman Toymata
Speaker 2: passed away.
Speaker 3: You know, I've been struggling forward the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 5: She had to come home and.
Speaker 2: Put them through it. So yeah, it's going to be
Speaker 2: a mitional for sure.
Speaker 7: You know, I get a mational just thinking about it.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: This is Sports Fix, You're daily dose of sports news
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Speaker 2: EBB, and it's a welcome out on podcast to Mike
Speaker 2: hester he Us on Rugby's participation, developed and manager.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the podcast, Mike, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: Well thanks for joining us. This very interesting story. Another
Speaker 2: tweak I suppose in the way rugby is rolled out
Speaker 2: specifically aimed at the youth, which of course is the
Speaker 2: Green Shoots. Isn't it really of the sport? You've got
Speaker 2: to look after that? So could you tell us nice
Speaker 2: and simply what exactly this proposal is?
Speaker 3: All this rollout is going to be what are we
Speaker 3: looking at?
Speaker 8: Yeah, So just to set that up, we've been going
Speaker 8: through a whole series of changes over the last five
Speaker 8: years around our small blacks development model, and so that's
Speaker 8: where kids learn how to play the game from when
Speaker 8: they're very little right through to when they're sort of
Speaker 8: ready to transition to the adult version of the game.
Speaker 8: So over the last five years we've been steadily working
Speaker 8: through a number of ages and stages, and the principle
Speaker 8: behind those changes is obviously to create more meaningful minutes
Speaker 8: for kids playing the game and the way that we
Speaker 8: want them to play, in the way they want to play,
Speaker 8: reducing this sort of complexity in the structures where it's
Speaker 8: not really necessary because they're not really able to contest,
Speaker 8: and also making sure the game design sort of seats
Speaker 8: that suits their needs physically, mentally, cognitively, et cetera. And
Speaker 8: so a lot of that's around principles of smaller sided
Speaker 8: games for longer. So the changes that have been introduced
Speaker 8: over the last sort of four or five years have
Speaker 8: been sort of under six through to under eleven space.
Speaker 8: We've got one more change in the under ten space
Speaker 8: which will just close that piece of work off which
Speaker 8: gets introduced next year. And what we're now starting to
Speaker 8: turn our minds to is proposals around what would happen
Speaker 8: around the under twelve, under thirteen, under fourteen space. And
Speaker 8: so some of the thinking there is around, okay, as
Speaker 8: kids are moving into those stages, around physical maturation, what's
Speaker 8: the right level of rugby that suits their needs, that
Speaker 8: engages them, helps them feel like they're progressing, but also
Speaker 8: is appropriate for their age and stage.
Speaker 2: So at the moment this is a proposition, it's not
Speaker 2: set in stone yet what are you going through in
Speaker 2: order to make sure this does actually get its traction
Speaker 2: and start.
Speaker 8: Yes, So we spent the last year doing a lot
Speaker 8: of work both here in Zealand but also overseas looking
Speaker 8: at other systems, trying to learn learn as much as
Speaker 8: you can around you know, where is youth sport looking
Speaker 8: what does it look like in terms of the future,
Speaker 8: And we've developed a series of proposals around what sort
Speaker 8: of under twelves, under thirteens, under fourteen's will look like.
Speaker 8: And this year we started to talk to our communities,
Speaker 8: clubs and schools, provincial unions, stakeholders, parents, et cetera to
Speaker 8: then engage what's what's their appetite for those changes? How
Speaker 8: might we best staged them answering any questions they've got
Speaker 8: around the rationale. We know that it will invoke some
Speaker 8: strong reactions because it always does in this space. People
Speaker 8: have want the best for their kids, and they want
Speaker 8: they'll have a picture of what that looks like in
Speaker 8: terms of their rugby experience. But ultimately, we need to
Speaker 8: make sure that the game fits the players by agent stage,
Speaker 8: and so we want to share that thinking with them
Speaker 8: and say, look, what is what we think it looks like.
Speaker 8: To ensure that the game continues to thrive, we retain
Speaker 8: more kids in the game so they move into the
Speaker 8: sort of teenage space and then ultimately at rugby, whether
Speaker 8: that's professional community, you know, we just want to create
Speaker 8: the best opportunites we can for everybody.
Speaker 2: So what pushbacks are you expecting from what you've done
Speaker 2: so far? Where is going to be the area where players, parents,
Speaker 2: schools and the light go.
Speaker 3: We don't like.
Speaker 8: This, you know, I guess probably people have a strong
Speaker 8: view about you know, if it doesn't look like fifteen
Speaker 8: outside rugby with full lineouts and scrums and all the
Speaker 8: systems and structures that go with it it's not really rugby.
Speaker 8: But the reality is we've been moving from a sort
Speaker 8: of game centric approach where we're just trying to make
Speaker 8: players fit that kind of mode of play, to more
Speaker 8: participant centric approach where we're trying to make sure the
Speaker 8: game fits the players. We know that fifteen's is a
Speaker 8: really important part of the experience as it's now sevens,
Speaker 8: but there's other ways that people want to play, both
Speaker 8: in terms of how they learn but also how they engage,
Speaker 8: so contact and contact format's become really important. So where
Speaker 8: we are expecting pushback is just through the change of
Speaker 8: In some cases kids are playing for Themoside Rugby now
Speaker 8: at eleven and twelve years old, we're proposing that that
Speaker 8: be deferred to later, probably in their thirteen or fourteen
Speaker 8: year old space, and also not introducing to the same
Speaker 8: degree scrums and lineouts with the same complexity, both in
Speaker 8: terms of size and in contest when the kids are
Speaker 8: not quite ready to be profiled into those positions. We
Speaker 8: don't quite know what they're going to look like through meturation,
Speaker 8: but also because they're not able to safely contest them.
Speaker 8: So we don't want to have undue influence of these
Speaker 8: system and structures when naturally we want to create more
Speaker 8: minutes with playing open rugby, unstructured play, more autonomy around
Speaker 8: making rugby decisions.
Speaker 2: The physical maturation, that's always going to be a difficult one.
Speaker 2: Kids grow at different paces, different speeds, in different sizes, So.
Speaker 3: I suppose drawing a line around.
Speaker 2: That it almost too hard to do. It has to
Speaker 2: be pretty much age based more.
Speaker 3: Than anything to some degree.
Speaker 8: But what we do know is that you've got big
Speaker 8: numbers and you have team sizes that are small, then
Speaker 8: it cracks the opportunity for sitt biobending by age and weight.
Speaker 8: So obviously a metropolitan centers, a number of them have
Speaker 8: weight grades. They're always challenged in terms of as the
Speaker 8: team sizes grow, then those weight grades become quite hard
Speaker 8: to support. But with the shift back to smaller sided
Speaker 8: teams for longer, it might create the opportunity. Time will tell,
Speaker 8: but for more weight grades to main relevant for longer
Speaker 8: in those in those junior grades, and so it'll be
Speaker 8: interesting to see how that plays out, but we certainly
Speaker 8: think that that might create some opportunities.
Speaker 2: So it's about increasing enjoyment. It's about keeping kids playing
Speaker 2: the game from when they start and encouraging parents, I
Speaker 2: suppose as well to keep their children in the game.
Speaker 2: The elephant in the room he has got to be concussion,
Speaker 2: doesn't it. Mike, how if you address that because a
Speaker 2: number of parents so we don't want our children playing
Speaker 2: this sport. It's dangerous. You mentioned some safety measures there,
Speaker 2: but how does that work with the concussion debate.
Speaker 8: Well, we know that concussions in the junior space are
Speaker 8: actually roughly low. We see concussion rates probably more of
Speaker 8: a focus for us to address and the sort of
Speaker 8: teenage and adult space. But that's not to say that
Speaker 8: we're taking our off the ball in terms of safety.
Speaker 8: In terms of what's happening between the white lines. Obviously,
Speaker 8: it's been a big focus on reducing tackle height and
Speaker 8: so that continues to be a focus for us, and
Speaker 8: we've see the benefits of that already globally in terms
Speaker 8: of the impact of lowering tackle height and getting heads
Speaker 8: out of the same airsplace. Some of these changes that
Speaker 8: we're making in the junior framework are actually also coach
Speaker 8: centric and that we're trying to lighten a load a
Speaker 8: bit for coaches about the curriculum they have to deliver
Speaker 8: at each agent stage. So that can actually focus on
Speaker 8: the real critical view tackle height and successful ball carry
Speaker 8: or confident ball carrier, two of those things, whereas previously
Speaker 8: when they've had to also deal with that as well
Speaker 8: as scrums and mine outs and big numbers, it means
Speaker 8: that the coachable moments around those critical safety bits gets compromised,
Speaker 8: so that's also potentially a benefit. And then more broadly,
Speaker 8: the more choices people have, the more opportunity they have
Speaker 8: to choose the kind of rugby that they want to
Speaker 8: play in. So we know rip has been a really successful,
Speaker 8: well loved part of our game under sixes and the sevens,
Speaker 8: but that largely up until a few years ago was
Speaker 8: sort of the end of the non contact sort of
Speaker 8: opportunity for kids, whereas in more recent times we've introduced
Speaker 8: rip rugby and we're now part of the sort of
Speaker 8: world Rugby Tea one rugby troll roll out across the world,
Speaker 8: and so we'll be releasing that over the next year
Speaker 8: or so into in the New Zealand system. And that's
Speaker 8: a non contact variant. Produces all of the sort of
Speaker 8: moments and the game sense that we want, but it's
Speaker 8: a non contact variant, and so we just have to
Speaker 8: help normally is legitimize these different ways of playing and.
Speaker 2: Our participation in development. Manager Mike Hester, thanks very much
Speaker 2: for your time here on News Talk ZB. You have
Speaker 2: a wonderful week thanks he having me on sort of sex.
Speaker 2: The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and
Speaker 2: this weekend everybody gets to dine out on the pudding.
Speaker 2: That is Liam Lawson, the young New Zealand hot shoe
Speaker 2: out of Puki Koi who takes up one of the
Speaker 2: hardest jobs in Formula One, teammate to Maxvistappen in Red Bull.
Speaker 2: The ability of Liam to achieve clarity this weekend is
Speaker 2: key for his success. We all know how good a
Speaker 2: pedlar he is. We all know about his history in
Speaker 2: various formula right the way from his cart days as
Speaker 2: a young man. What we don't know is how well
Speaker 2: he'll deal with the crushing pressure from the Formula one world.
Speaker 2: That's team owners, are the drivers, the media, the fans.
Speaker 2: Everything is going to be focused on Liam Lawson this weekend.
Speaker 2: He is the golden child, here's the next big thing
Speaker 2: in Formula One. He's battled long and hard to achieve
Speaker 2: his dream of finding a seat on the grid of
Speaker 2: the biggest, fastest, scariest, most expensive global sport there is,
Speaker 2: and that is Formula one. He's dreamed of this his
Speaker 2: entire life. But now he's got to push all that
Speaker 2: to one side. He's got to forget his dreams, forget
Speaker 2: his aspirations, forget what people have said about him, forget
Speaker 2: what people are saying about him. Now it's about performance
Speaker 2: and performance only.
Speaker 3: It's clarity.
Speaker 2: As the great violinist to Hudi Menewan used to say,
Speaker 2: learn everything you can, know your craft inside out, and
Speaker 2: when it comes to performance, forget it all and just play.
Speaker 2: And in Liam's case, all of us build up all
Speaker 2: of his career. He has to leave that to one
Speaker 2: side and race pure racing clarity, and then he'll get
Speaker 2: the best of himself in what promises to be a
Speaker 2: massive year for Liam Lawson. The proof of the pudding
Speaker 2: will be in the eating. Yum, yum yum.
Speaker 9: We are now in session of sports, and the door
Speaker 9: swings open and the chamber is darkened with the shadow
Speaker 9: of z b Rugby.
Speaker 3: Editor Elliott Smith. Elliott, was that a bit too much?
Speaker 6: Mate?
Speaker 4: I liked it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you did well.
Speaker 2: You're a vast character in so many ways, so you
Speaker 2: do you do cast a shadow? Thanks for joining us
Speaker 2: in here. Let's talk about one of the biggest sports
Speaker 2: stories of the last couple of days, and this is
Speaker 2: this concept of a rugby shakeup for junior rugby. We've
Speaker 2: been listening to them responsible for that, Mike Hester, and
Speaker 2: he's having rugby participation in Development Manager. It's a slow process.
Speaker 2: It's been going on for a while. Are they hitting
Speaker 2: in the right direction.
Speaker 4: I think they are. I like these ideas.
Speaker 7: I think we all know the issues that rugby has
Speaker 7: attracting and retaining talents, and that is more of a
Speaker 7: secondary schools into beyond level. But it's also about the
Speaker 7: kids and making it fun and enjoyable for them. You're
Speaker 7: not gonna be in all black because you scored a
Speaker 7: million tries when you're eight years old or nine years old,
Speaker 7: but you do learn to love the game at that stage.
Speaker 3: That's exactly it.
Speaker 2: That's what they need to do. They need to get
Speaker 2: that addiction. It sounds terrible, hardly drug pushes, but they
Speaker 2: need to get into this game.
Speaker 8: Go.
Speaker 3: I want to do that.
Speaker 2: I love doing this, not the vagaries of how you're
Speaker 2: pushing it at a scrum with seven or team.
Speaker 7: There's time to figure that out, and they can watch
Speaker 7: the professionals and learn that way while not having to
Speaker 7: put it out on the training field. I think the
Speaker 7: more ways you can attract and retain kids into the
Speaker 7: game for longer, you know, it could be three people aside, sex,
Speaker 7: plavate people aside, nine, whatever they come up with.
Speaker 2: Are they having fun?
Speaker 4: Are they having fun?
Speaker 2: And it always their key isn't at that lowerly.
Speaker 7: Because it plants the seed for a lifetime of following rugby,
Speaker 7: enjoying rugby rather than playing on the iPads or watching
Speaker 7: techtoc or whatever it might be. And if you get
Speaker 7: that seed planted, you know, it becomes rooted in you.
Speaker 4: You follow that sport for life. I know I was
Speaker 4: the same. I was utterly useless as a kid playing rugby.
Speaker 7: And didn't play for that long in all honesty, but
Speaker 7: that was where you know, the love of the game
Speaker 7: watching on TV. So the more you're exposed to it,
Speaker 7: the better. And if these are the ways. By reducing
Speaker 7: team numbers and not specializing in positions until a wee
Speaker 7: bit older, then I think you do capture more kids,
Speaker 7: which is what we want.
Speaker 2: Playing the game problematic in the transition, though, once you
Speaker 2: get to the end of year teen or whatever they
Speaker 2: come up with, and then suddenly go on to the
Speaker 2: proper full game. Is there too much of a jump
Speaker 2: I created well?
Speaker 7: Or I think there is a genuine question around that,
Speaker 7: around when the right time to leapers, whether it's when
Speaker 7: you go into high school at year nine and ten,
Speaker 7: whether it's when you start playing at a certain weight
Speaker 7: restriction you know, when you do get to that point
Speaker 7: as well. I think there are questions around it. But
Speaker 7: you know, I don't think you know, there's a lot
Speaker 7: of rugby schools out there that pride themselves in their
Speaker 7: first fifteen, but that's still three sort of years until
Speaker 7: it gets that first fifteen level where you're learning to
Speaker 7: play the game. You begin to specialize in a position.
Speaker 7: You play it at fifteen on fifteen, Maybe going in
Speaker 7: out of year ten's a week bit too late, But
Speaker 7: I think you learn a lot more about the game
Speaker 7: by playing with fewer people than you do playing as
Speaker 7: part of a bigger group.
Speaker 2: It's all the argument around the maturation of players, how
Speaker 2: big they get, how fast they get there. But this
Speaker 2: is such a movable feast it's almost impossible to make
Speaker 2: any rules around that. We don't know how fast kids
Speaker 2: grow mentally or physically, so there has to be some
Speaker 2: parameters at least it's being looked up, looked at. And
Speaker 2: then there's the elephant in the room, the pagoderm and
Speaker 2: the parlor. Concussion is.
Speaker 3: That tar above everything.
Speaker 7: I think it does. But I think there's a lot
Speaker 7: of misinformation around concussion out there at the moment, and
Speaker 7: I think the big worry is the repeated knocks at training,
Speaker 7: not so much in game.
Speaker 4: Which of course are bad, but it's that over and over.
Speaker 7: Repetition at training, putting your head in dark places, putting
Speaker 7: your head, you know, into that contact area at training. Now,
Speaker 7: if you're reducing team numbers, you're probably less likely to
Speaker 7: be playing in those sort of collisions. So ultimately, I
Speaker 7: think it should be a safer sport. So it's not
Speaker 7: you know, obviously in games of serious and we've seen
Speaker 7: a number of those, but it's about that repetition at
Speaker 7: training that we need to stamp out, and with those
Speaker 7: smaller groups it might go a bit of a way
Speaker 7: of doing so, you know.
Speaker 2: It's accumulative concussion concept isn't and that's well known now.
Speaker 2: So how much time do you spend training to what
Speaker 2: degree do you train? There are risks associated with all sports,
Speaker 2: but it's a big one with rugby because it is
Speaker 2: presumed by a lot of mums and dads particularly, Hey,
Speaker 2: this is dangerous.
Speaker 3: We don't want our kids in it.
Speaker 2: So maybe if there's a spread, maybe there's more room
Speaker 2: to play, maybe it's not so intense. That might help ower.
Speaker 2: But that's a that's a real problem for not only
Speaker 2: he's the only run global right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, And look, once these kids grow up and
Speaker 7: can mactely their own informed decisions about whether they want
Speaker 7: to play or not and put themselves into a position where,
Speaker 7: you know, injuries happen. You know, obviously parents are going
Speaker 7: to be concerned. But all you can do is mitigate
Speaker 7: the possible risks as best you can, and I think
Speaker 7: this goes some way to doing so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's an argument a life's dangerous.
Speaker 2: Sorts of horrible things can happen to you doing all
Speaker 2: sorts of sport, like you know, tiger Woods, all sorts
Speaker 2: of horrible things have happened and golf, but maybe not
Speaker 2: necessarily because of golf. I think maybe he dragged some
Speaker 2: of it on himself, but he or he's out again,
Speaker 2: I had no idea so erupted killes tendon out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is just around the home.
Speaker 7: I assume it was in the act of maybe doing
Speaker 7: some training at home.
Speaker 4: He hasn't specified too much around it.
Speaker 7: But say what you want about Tiger Woods, his presence
Speaker 7: is still felt at Major's. You know, when he turns
Speaker 7: up Tiger's there, he's one of the storylines of the week,
Speaker 7: even at his advanced age for a professional golfer.
Speaker 2: He actual added that for a professional golf because he's
Speaker 2: still a younger.
Speaker 7: He's but you know, in terms of professional golfers, you
Speaker 7: look at the guys out there on tour at the
Speaker 7: moment that are killing a Scottish Scheffler, all those players
Speaker 7: that are on tour winning tournaments. He is a lot
Speaker 7: older than them, and so you know, he still has
Speaker 7: this remarkable aura about him, as anyone with his wrecker would.
Speaker 7: But maybe it's time for him just to give the
Speaker 7: top level professional what. You know, he can still roll
Speaker 7: into the Masters every year. He's got guaranteed invite for
Speaker 7: life to Augusta, but you know, maybe he needs to go.
Speaker 4: And duel that.
Speaker 3: So why does he keep playing them?
Speaker 7: I think there's unfinished business there, and the fact that
Speaker 7: he's not going out on his turns. Maybe he should
Speaker 7: have gone out after he won the Masters in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 7: But that's easy to say in Richros bit easy for
Speaker 7: us to say in the chamber are pining about, you know,
Speaker 7: golfers and when to call it quits and professional sports people.
Speaker 7: But I think he's unfinished business there for him. He's
Speaker 7: got nothing left to prove in golf. But obviously there's
Speaker 7: you know, jack necklace record and all these other things
Speaker 7: that are still there that he'd love to achieve for
Speaker 7: his career is out. Hard to see him doing that. Now,
Speaker 7: Maybe you should transition into the seniors to all the
Speaker 7: champions Tours. It's now known.
Speaker 4: Look, how good would be to see Tiger Woods and
Speaker 4: Stephen Elker jeweling.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, how good would be watched
Speaker 2: Tiger Woods getting thrashed by Elko?
Speaker 7: Yeah, who says no apart from Tiger, Yeah, they'd be
Speaker 7: hiding entertaining. Look, yeah, sports people very rarely get to
Speaker 7: go out on their own terms, and it feels like
Speaker 7: Tiger's body is just letting him down at the moment.
Speaker 3: All right, remove yourself from the chamber.
Speaker 2: Elliott Smith, sports news journalists for News Talk ZB and
Speaker 2: of course our rugby editor as well.
Speaker 3: Thanks very much for your time.
Speaker 4: Thanks having me, Sports, Sex and Complete.
Speaker 2: That is the Sports Fixed podcast for Wednesday, the twelfth
Speaker 2: of March twenty twenty five. My name is Darcy water Grave,
Speaker 2: looking forward to you joining us right the way through
Speaker 2: the week on the Fixed. Can do that by subscribing
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