WEBVTT - Episode 15: Dyslexia - A 'specialisation', not a disorder 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:00.679 Good evening. 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:02.960 My name is Turette's is a poem called the New 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.080 New Zealand. 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:09.840 Terrees otherwise known as Dominic Hoey novelist, poet, playwright. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:11.959 And with the graffitist commission. None of the fights are 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:14.239 worth winning. No one cares about your life, just what 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:15.360 you do for a living. 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:20.200 Publisher, rapper and profoundly dyslexit for you. 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:22.520 And other day jobs. He work that no one else 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:24.720 would do, so we could follow our dreams at night, 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:25.720 like you told us. 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:29.320 To, Gelda. I'm Sonia Gray and this is no such 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:33.120 thing as normal. Series two, I'm diving into the complex 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.280 and fascinating world of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.720 my daughter is neurodivergent and a few years ago I 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.680 was diagnosed with ADHD. In this series, you'll hear from 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:48.640 experts and from many wonderful people who experience the world 0:00:48.720 --> 0:01:02.520 in a unique way. We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.800 This is the second of a two part focus on dyslexia. 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.240 In the last episode, I talked to twenty three year 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.760 old Michael, who buys and sells supercars for a living. 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:17.240 It's a dream job. Michael's profoundly dyslexic. He can read 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.120 when it's a topic of interest to him, like supercars, 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.360 but fictional writing just doesn't make any sense. I could 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.360 read your book, it would make sense to you, guys, 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.200 wouldn't make sense to me now. In this episode, I 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:33.880 talked to dominic Hoey, best selling novelist and poet. Unlike Michael, 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.679 dom finds it almost impossible to read or write anything 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:41.440 that's not fictional. It's fascinating. We can't assume we know 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.160 what strengths or struggles any one dyslexic thinker might have. 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:52.000 Dyslexia comes in many flavors, so dyslexia a loaded word 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.680 and misunderstood. I think, how did your diagnosis come about? 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.600 I was probably, I want to say, like thirty, and 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.760 I went to university as an adult student. I kind 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:05.520 of knew something was up because I'd been in special 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.280 education and I still can't write. 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:08.680 My hand or spell and stuff. I didn't know exactly 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:09.240 what it was. 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.800 I suspected dyslex yet, So anyway, I went into the test, 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:14.200 and I thought that'd be like, oh, you're a little 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.280 bit dyslexican, but like, no, you're very looking disabled. 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:18.440 So how to feel. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:20.720 There was a bit of relief, but there's also a 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:22.840 lot of frustration that I kind of wish someone had 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.880 told me when I was seven, or you know what 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.800 I mean. I mean, there's definitely advantages. I think you know, 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:31.840 and you have a certain level of grit and tenacity 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.160 and stuff. But I do wonder, if you know, all 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.680 the sort of self loathing and low self esteem and stuff, 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:39.640 is it worth to sort of payoff? 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:40.120 I don't know. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.320 It's tragic that almost all dyslexics have a deep sense 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.040 of shame. Would it have been different for Dom if 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.960 he'd been diagnosed as a kid, Well, it's unlikely he 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.560 would have been. An assessment is expensive up to fifteen 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.080 hundred dollars these days. That would have been out of 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.560 reach for Dom's family, who didn't have much money. Poverty 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.800 and the disadvantages that come with it as central to 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.120 his writing. You always wanted to be a writer. M 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:09.480 tell me about that. 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:11.919 I don't know where it came from, Like I guess 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.960 because like when I was young before I couldn't read 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:15.680 to us about eight or nine, and my parents had 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.160 just read to me all the time, and I was 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.400 always like kind of like just like I loved stories 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.200 and I loved you know, I was always making stuff 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.800 up from a super young age. I just think because 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:28.680 I was asking my mum kind of recently. I was like, 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:30.799 did I talk about being a writer when I was young? 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.079 And She's like, yeah, you did, but you know, you 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.400 couldn't read, so we were kind of like, maybe this 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.880 isn't the thing for you. And then when I learned 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:39.320 to read, my dad was like, oh, if you want 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.000 to be a writer, she just read all the time, 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.480 and so I did. And he actually had a library, 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.840 like a room just full of books and I kind 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:47.920 of read all of them in a lot of strange stuff. 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:49.560 But I think that really helped as well, like to 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:51.480 sort of develop the style I have. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.120 Did you've got quite a unique style? Line? 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:55.320 Yeah? 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:56.760 Good unique style. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:57.320 Yeah. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.080 I mean, you know, it's not for everyone. 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:00.560 People love or hate it, but I think that's a 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:02.760 good thing, you know, And I think that comes from 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.520 just having taught myself mostly, you know, and also like 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.000 I learned a lot about writing from rapping, which probably 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:10.480 unusual for miss novelists, you. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.480 Know, Don Joe started out as a rapper under the 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:18.520 name to read poetry was a natural progression In twenty seventeen, 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.240 his first novel, Iceland, was published, and it's most recent 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:28.000 is called Poor People with Money. I read your book 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:30.920 Poor People with Money. Loved it. 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:32.359 Oh thank you, I tell you. 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.080 One of the reasons I loved it you right in 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.720 a way that's easy for someone like me to read. Now. 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.200 I'm not dyslexic, but the way I read a book 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.520 is often it's not really that linear. But I found 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.880 myself being able to read it in a linear way 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.240 because it wasn't too dense. Did you do that on 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:53.599 purpose or is that just your style? 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:55.360 A bit of both. 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.400 Like Penguin had been super supportive, but I think I've 0:04:58.400 --> 0:04:59.920 had to fight for a little bit because I think 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.599 that they were like, why don't you make the chapters 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.640 a little bit longer, make the book a bit longer, 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.039 make it more like a traditional literary thing. And I 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.640 was just sort of like explaining, well, this is kind 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.840 of my audience, or this is the audience I really care. 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:13.839 About, and there's a shitload of books for the other. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:15.360 Audience, exactly exactly. 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.960 You know, of course, the material is enjoyable and funny 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.839 and deep and gritty and all the things, but just 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.040 that fact that I didn't have to think. It's yeah, 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:25.599 thank you. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:27.880 I mean that's the greatest compliment, you know. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:29.960 And like when people say stuff like that, you're just like, 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:34.279 oh man, it's like crazy, because good you have to entertain, 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.200 you know as well. And I think a lot of 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:36.919 writers forget that. 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.479 Yeah. Yeah, they're very busy creating this beautiful prose and 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:44.960 yeah it's just too dense. 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:47.080 They're trying to be clever, you know, clever. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting and we all want to 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:53.040 be clever. But if it stops people reading it, then yeah, 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.760 if no one's reading you're clever, then you're not that clever. 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.760 If you haven't read any of Dom's work, do it, 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.520 he is clever. The first time I read a Dom 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.280 Harry poem, I was like, how does he know what 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.000 I'm thinking and feeling when I don't even know he's 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.839 a master with words because he doesn't use that many. 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:18.960 But just because he's a writer, it doesn't mean he 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.680 likes all words all the time. Like filling in forms 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.240 quick and easy for most people, for Dom it can 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:27.240 be impossible. 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.040 I'm like, I can't do it, sorry, So what is it? 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.000 Tell me what it is about a form that is 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.440 difficult and what Sorry not to press on it, but 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:42.359 it's just interesting so that people understand what specifically is 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:46.960 it the writing itself? Is it the putting the words together? 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.000 Yeah, I think it's just I don't. 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:50.560 I mean, this is just me speculating, but I think 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:52.119 what it is is like whatever part of your brain 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.400 does creative writing, I've developed that, but I started from 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:58.760 the union like negative, but the other part of my 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.520 brain I didn't develop that non creative writing, and so 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.360 I feel like that's still in the dyslexic thing, you 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:03.880 know what I mean. 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:05.359 Like I think. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.920 Ironically, like I can't really it's quite difficult for me 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:09.880 to write stuff that's not fiction. So I think I've 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.240 taught myself to write fiction and I can kind of 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:13.200 write an email, but. 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:13.760 That's about it. 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:15.640 Like if I have to write anything else, I find 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.440 it incredibly difficult. Just sometimes I feel like I describe 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.000 it like there's a wall in my brain and sometimes 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.440 I just hit that wall and it doesn't matter what I. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.160 Do, I can't get beyond that. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.560 And I think oftentimes nonfiction kind of writing like guess why, 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.760 Like funding applications are just a nightmare for me because 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.280 you know what I mean it's like you're bending your arm. 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:35.400 In a way it doesn't want to bend, or something. 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:36.440 That's what it kind of feels like. 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.880 I think this is crucial to understanding the struggle of 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.679 dyslexics and neurodivergent people in general. They can be great 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.480 at the things that are supposed to be difficult, like 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.120 in Dom's case, novel writing or poetry, but not so 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.400 good at the things that are considered easy, like filling 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.240 in a form. You can be a writer of award 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.280 winning best selling novels, but you don't get a US 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:01.120 on the Edmond. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.960 So me and my mate who's also dyslexic, we were probably 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.920 about twenty five and we were just like cooking and 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:08.600 just terrible places. And we're both like, we're going to 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:10.360 go to university. We're going to turn our lives around. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:12.600 So we walked down to the university and we're like, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:14.120 we want to enroll, and the guy was like, Okay, 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.480 here's all these forms, and we're like oh, And we 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:18.000 spent about an hour trying to fill the forms out, 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:19.200 and then we were back to going like we can't 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:20.640 do this, and he's like, well, if you can't feel 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:22.360 the forms out, he can't come to UNI, and so 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.600 we just left and that was you know, so it 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.320 was probably another five years after that that then they 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:28.880 got computers, so then I could enroll. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.640 You know, you got the RDE block before you've even started. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:34.920 Yeah, I mean, and I think it's like that's the 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.240 thing with just six here. Like I tried to pevson 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:39.760 level of pride in it and bravado and talk about 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:43.080 how it's like help me and all this shit, but like, definitely, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.760 my life is I feel like I'm always five or 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.840 ten years behind where I probably should be if I 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.600 didn't have this or if you know that there were 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.400 the systems to support people with this, you know what 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:54.719 I mean. 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.040 So only really in the last ten years, I think that. 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:58.680 I've got to the point where I don't let that 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.360 stuff stop me, and you know, if there's a system 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.280 set up that you know, like I'm like, okay, well 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.200 you need to sort this out because you can't not 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.199 let me do this or whatever. I was had a 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:09.240 dentist the other day though, and she's I spent the 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.199 receptions ask me for that form, and I just was like, oh, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:12.800 I'm dyslexic. Do you think you could do it? For 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.559 me and people are usually pretty understanding. 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:15.800 You know. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:17.719 Is that quite liberating when you do that? 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.760 Yeah, I mean it's a relative I guess that's another 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.920 thing that sort of is in the last ten years I've. 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.040 Started doing and you know what. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:29.280 I mean, just like really owning it. 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.880 It's taken do a long time to own it. He's 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.680 in his forties now, but can it go even further? 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:39.200 Move from shame through acceptance all the way to celebrating 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.720 his dyslexia. New research shows that evolution has kept dyslexia 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.160 and our gene pool for a reason. This unique way 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.760 of thinking is critical to the survival of our species. 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.800 If dyslexics weren't needed, they would have been like evolution 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:00.600 would have extincted them distinct. So there is a reason 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:05.080 that for different cognition. And so it's a specialization, so 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.959 you don't there's many people that can fill out forms. Well, 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:13.720 AI can do it now. So like it's an exciting 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.480 time to be dislexit because you're not going to have 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.120 to do all that stuff. I hope, I don't think. 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.920 But we need the explorers, the disruptors that I see 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:24.760 a solution to that problem. No one else has been 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:25.920 able to see it. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.199 What's it called, like the telescopic kind of thinking where 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.600 you can see the end of something, Like I think 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:32.520 that's something that I've noticed that I have that. 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:34.960 Can you tell me about that? Because that is a 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:35.400 big thing. 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:37.800 So like when I start the novel, it's like I 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.640 can see the end, Like even if I don't know 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:42.120 how it's going to end, I can see that I'm 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.480 going to get to the end. Like whenever I do anything, 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:46.880 I can see how to get to the end of it. 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.760 I guess, And I didn't realize that was rare until, 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:51.719 you know, I guess when I was making music with 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:54.400 like super talented people, but they couldn't do that, and 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.600 often they wouldn't finish their songs or they finished their 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.000 albums because they couldn't see that kind of end. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:05.400 Put this ability to see the end point reminded me 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.760 of doctor Ruth gibbons comments in last week's episode about 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.240 the different way dyslexics often do maths. My daughter can 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.200 provide the answer to a complicated math problem, but she 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.560 often loses marks for not showing the working because the 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.160 way she got to the answer isn't something she can 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:21.680 write down. 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.720 That's a natural way for dyslectic to work. DYSLEXICX don't 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.520 think in a linear way. Dyslexics are much happier when 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:29.800 they have multiple pieces of information that they can bring 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.560 together into one point. So when they're doing something like maths, 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.439 they will be bringing those things all together to get 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:35.920 the answer. 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.800 But you still have to show you working. So many 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.520 of the skills that dyslexics possess aren't definable or measurable, 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.840 but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they're 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:51.199 not very, very valuable. Research out of Cambridge University is 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:55.480 found that dyslexics have enhanced abilities and things like discovery, invention, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.240 and creativity. They say developmental dyslexia should no longer longer 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:05.120 be considered a disorder, but instead a specialization, which is 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.679 exciting and I wonder if dorm's aware of this dyslexic age. 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.280 To be honest, I still don't know a lot about 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.599 dyslexia other than what my experiences. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:17.080 Are you interested in it? 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:18.640 I kind of am. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.880 I think there's sort of like a lot of trauma 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.679 around it, Like I get I get quite emotional when 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.440 I'm reading about other people's experience. It are sort of 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.760 like minor stuff, So I guess maybe I kind of 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:29.240 avoid it. 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:34.320 Do you think a lot of it comes from school? 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:34.800 Yeah? 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:36.920 For sure, for sure, like because you know, like special 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.200 education was just like it was pretty much just like 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.079 a holding cell, like they destructed all the kids that 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.719 didn't know what to deal with in there. And then 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:47.640 also just like being told you're stupid for years and 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.280 sort of not I guess, you know, like part of 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:51.719 me sort of thought, well, I don't think I am. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:53.800 But then you sort of like if your teachers are 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.120 telling you that, you're like, well, I guess that's the job. 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:57.680 You know, they must know what they're talking about. 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.600 So I think, yeah, well did special education look like? 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.400 I'll sort of in and out of it throughout my 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.240 all my schooling, so sometimes that put me back into mainstream. 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.679 But in primary school, it was just this classroom just 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.960 for a flight deals a deaf kid. There was like 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.520 a with a school bully and just all of them. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.439 I don't know what I'm laughing. It's just like it's 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.400 like a whold itself. Yeah, the misfits. Everyone knew that 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:23.120 if you did. 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.800 That, probably weren't going to get a job, and that 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.400 and that again was just a holding solf because you know, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.240 like you had kids in there who were brilliant at 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:32.280 some stuff in life. 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.479 Brilliant it's some stuff, but not the right stuff. Sometimes 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.400 the kids who can see patterns and solutions are hard 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.720 to spot. They can often be ignored. Instead, we have 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.199 accommodations to help them get better at the right stuff. 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:50.679 I wanted to get the extra time, you know in 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:52.960 the exam. Well, actually I wanted to use a laptop. 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:54.920 But then they were like, there's no way we're going 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.560 to use a laptop. But the thing is having extra time. 0:13:57.640 --> 0:13:59.480 If you can't spell or handwr it doesn't really make 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.960 any difference, Just longer to sit there failing at the thing, 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:02.600 you know what I mean. 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.880 You can use a laptop now in university. In fact, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.800 university seemed to be set up super well to support 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:14.000 neurodivergent learners. It's trickier in schools, and a support isn't 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.520 a support if it's not the right support for you. 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.080 For me, it's like because I got to read a 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:20.480 writer for a while, and so I had to say 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:22.280 it out loud and I'd write it down. But that 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:23.920 for me is a different part of the brain lake. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.520 I can't community you know, when I'm talking, I'm not 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.480 as eloquent as I am on the page. 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.760 For those that don't know, a reader writers a volunteer 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.040 that works with a student during an assessment. Generally they 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.440 read the question to you and then write the answer 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.240 that you give them. For some kids, it's great. For others, 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:52.440 it's really not. For Dom the big change came when 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:57.160 he changed schools. My husband knocked around with you, yep, 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.400 back in the day, and he said one of things 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.280 about you, but also that you went to a school 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.640 that I'd never heard of called Metro Auckland Metropolitan College. Yeah, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:08.560 can you tell me about that? 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.520 Yeah, so that kind of I think that really was 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.960 like maybe talking about that trajectory. It was one of 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.720 the turning points actually was I was at Western Springs 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.760 and just was having a pretty horrible time and then 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.560 they basically kicked out a huge amount of kids. I 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:25.480 don't know why exactly, and we all went to Metro. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.080 And so Metro was an alternative school in Mount Eden. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.720 It was just like a two storied building. There's one 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:32.880 hundred kids there, and it was based on this model 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.360 where kids loomed best when they want to loun and 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.800 kids got to vote on what classes they had and 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:40.400 all this kind of stuff, so she didn't have to go 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.320 to class, and I just spent the whole time writing 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.400 poetry and playing the drums pretty much. There was a 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.480 class on Marxism, so we had a class on Marxism, So, 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:51.720 you know, I left school without I didn't really have 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.760 any sort of practical skills, I guess as such, but 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:56.720 you kind of had an advantage because I'd been writing 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.240 poetry for two years and getting lessons and performing and 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.840 doing all that stuff. So at eighteen, I was sort of, like, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:04.960 I guess, a bit further ahead of most kids my 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:06.520 age to gone to traditional schools. 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:07.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.960 And the other thing was because it was so small, 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.640 like you couldn't have cliques, so you couldn't be like 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.280 they weren't like cool kids or whatever. Like you were 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.080 all just forced together, and you were hanging out with 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.320 kids who were just from wildly different parts of the 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.520 city or different backgrounds. There were kids there whose parents 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.560 were like millionaires, and there were kids there who were 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.120 like sleeping in the cars and everything in between. So 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:29.520 and we were all hanging out, you know, and I 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.000 think that was pretty incredible. 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.960 Dom says this school was fundamental to a success. But 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.960 this kind of state school, it doesn't exist anymore these days. 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.160 Dom wears a lot of hats. He co founded publishing 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.360 company Dead Bird Books. He co founded a Define, a 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:52.280 program for disadvantaged youth, and he mentors dyslexic kids in writing. 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.600 There's a common thread through all his mahi helping those 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:57.520 who are struggling. 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.400 I really think that if you're an artist that has 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.800 a profile, part of your job is to bring to 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:06.480 other people like you belong and it makes everything slower. 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.120 But I think in the long run, it's like way 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.240 better than does you know you having a little moment. 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.000 Dom has defied the distincts of gods and become a 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.600 successful author, but he carries the hangover from years of 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.119 being told the way he was wasn't right. It's a 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.760 while since Dom was at school. We know so much 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.760 more now. But if that's the case, why are there's 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.440 still so many young dyslexic kids having a terrible experience. 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.400 He would leave the room, or he would hide under 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.880 a table in the classroom and not move for hours. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.520 Amy is a high school counselor. She works with kids daily, 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.159 but she's talking about her own son, eleven year old Oliver. 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:48.320 He was not a confident kid at all, and he 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.000 would come home crying some days and we wouldn't know why, 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.040 and he started talking about that. He just he felt 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.080 different and he was sick of being told off. And 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.159 I think, yeah, there was not really any I guess, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:08.600 how would I say care in terms of the emotional wellbeing, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.720 He would say, I'm dumb, I'm stupid, don't. 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:13.120 Want to be here. 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.720 He struggled quite a lot in the reading writing, and 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.159 that was a constant thing that was brought up in 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.000 teacher interviews and a daily thing, and he just would 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.639 be pushed quite hard. So his instinct was to run. 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.479 Yeah, which is all of our instincts. 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:29.320 You know. 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:29.920 Yep. 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.240