1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Hei Elder. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Should 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: or shouldn't New Zealand become a republic? It's a quandary 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: that sparked fierce debate over decades, and it's back on 5 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: the agenda as King Charles heads down Under for his 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: first tour, but is skipping New Zealand with his visit, 7 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: prompting debate over in Australia is a time for New 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: Zealand to consider becoming a republic? Today on the Front Page, 9 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: Republican Z's Peter Hamilton joins us to discuss this issue 10 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: and what a monarchy free New Zealand could look like. 11 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: We did invite Monarchy and Z to participate in this discussion, 12 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: but they declined. So, Peter, can you tell me how 13 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 1: long have you been a staunch Republican? 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: Well, I guess it would be about twenty or thirty years. 15 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: But I was, until my retirement ten years ago, a 16 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: member of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Wellington, 17 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: therefore representing New Zealand overseas. So at that point I 18 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: had to keep my views, my personal views to myself 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: on the question of New Zealand's head of state. But 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: since I've been retired, of course, I don't have that 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: constraint anymore. So I'm now free to say what I 22 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: really think about the issues and also draw on my 23 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: professional experience as a New Zealand diplomat over the years 24 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: as to why I think we should now have our 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 2: New Zealand head of state? 26 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: Well, why should we? 27 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: Well, it's an issue that can be debated from both sides. Firstly, 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: I think that it's time for New Zealand to finish what, 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: in essence is an uncompleted constitutional puzzle since we became 30 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: a name from eighteen forty onwards. The head of state 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: in any country, including New Zealand, has a very important 32 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: role to play. In our case, it's a ceremonial role. 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: It's not executive as it is in the United States, 34 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: for example. It's a ceremonial role, but it personifies the 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: country itself, and so the head of state has to 36 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: be a person in my view, who lives among us 37 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: and is able to rise above domestic politics and can 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: champion the interests of the nation, not only internally in 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: New Zealand, but also externally. Overseas. Now we have a 40 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: New Zealand. Of course the Governor's General all have been 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: fine people, but they're hampered in their international role because, 42 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: of course other countries know that our head of state 43 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: is not actually a New Zealander but somebody living offshore 44 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: a long way away in London, and this is a 45 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 2: very confusing concept to most countries around the world. It 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: does impede our international image, which is why I think 47 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: we should bring home the role of head of state 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: to where it actually really does now belong, and that 49 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: is in the form of the Governor General by transforming 50 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: the Governor General's office into that of our head of 51 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: state as a New Zealander. 52 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: And like you said, the Governor General at the moment 53 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: is very ceremonial. You'd want them to do a little 54 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: bit more, say take some jobs off of the Foreign 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: Minister's hands. 56 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: I suppose no, actually, no, this is a very important point. 57 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 2: I think it's very important that we make the distinction 58 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: between the head of state, who is a ceremonial role, 59 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: and the head of government who is the prime minister 60 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: in the cabinet. And I don't believe we should merge 61 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: the two. I think the head of state should remain 62 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: non political and clearly non political in terms of the 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: person we appoint to the job, and should be able 64 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: to rise above the domestic politics at any time. So 65 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: this is a concern I think that New Zealanders have 66 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: about how we would appoint our head of state. I 67 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 2: think it's essential that we keep the role as ceremonial 68 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: nothing to do with running the country. In terms of 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: executive roles. That remains with the government of the day, 70 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: the Prime Minister and Cabinet of the day and Parliament, 71 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: so it's quite quite separate. 72 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: Are there any other countries that we could look to 73 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: and their set up? I suppose any of those that 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: you'd quite like the look of. 75 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think one that we would want to avoid 76 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 2: is the United States model. And a lot of people 77 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: do get very worried about our head of state, who 78 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: might become a sort of Trump person. Now, in the 79 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: manner we appoint our head of state, we would need 80 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: to avoid any possibility of somebody like a Trump taking 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: the role of head of state. Other countries some combine 82 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: the role of government and ceremonial. In the United States, 83 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 2: does that other countries keep it separate. For example, in Germany, 84 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 2: the President of Germany is not a member of the government. 85 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: They are commonial as a Singapore. Now, some countries elect 86 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: their head of state. Ireland does very successfully and as 87 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: Singapore very successfully elects the head of state. But we're 88 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: arguing in fact that we shouldn't have another election in 89 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: New Zealand. New Zealanders are, i think, get tired of 90 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 2: regular elections and the main election is for the key role, 91 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: which is that of government of the day. And we 92 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: argue that the head of state in New Zealand, when 93 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: we bring the office back to the Governor General, should 94 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 2: be chosen by a super majority of Parliament to make 95 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: that person quite deliberately and definitely a political In other words, 96 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: no politician would be eligible to take on the role 97 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: of head of state, unless of course they could garner 98 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: super majority support from Parliament. One example we've had in 99 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 2: our past was when Robert Muldoon appointed Sir Keith Holyoke 100 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: as Governor General. Holioch had been a Prime minister, stepped 101 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: down and became a minister in Maldoone's cabinet, and to 102 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: reward him, Maldoon appointed him Governor General. Now he served 103 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: quite well in that role, but it's intensely political and 104 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: therefore demeaned the office of Governor General at the time. 105 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 2: So we argue that the head of State in New 106 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: Zealand should be chosen by Parliament and should remain a 107 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: non executive ceremonial role as the Governor General currently does. 108 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: The fact is we already have a head of state 109 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: in Embryo and the Governor General currently Dame Cindi Keiro, 110 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: does all the work of any normal head of state 111 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: except for the international dimension, but she doesn't get the 112 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: respect and the manna that should be accorded her as 113 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 2: head of state because of course Governor General means she 114 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: is in the B team. She is the King's deputy 115 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: in New Zealand and therefore doesn't have the manna that 116 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: would go with being our actual head of state. 117 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: So of course King Charles and Queen Camilla are heading 118 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: to our part of the world, going to Australia first 119 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: with events in Sydney and Canberra, then going to Samoa. 120 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 3: The leg of the tour that has been shelved will 121 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 3: be New Zealand, and I think that's it comes a 122 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: bit of a sadness for the King Queen not to get. 123 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: To see the Kei Weeds. 124 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 4: Contrast the King's first visit to Australia as head of 125 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 4: State to the late Queen's first visit to Australia in 126 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 4: nineteen fifty four. She visited every single state and territory, 127 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 4: seven capital cities, seventy towns over fifty eight days. King 128 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 4: Charles is going to be there less than the week 129 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 4: and is only going to be visiting Canberra and Sydney. 130 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 4: But of course the Queen was in her twenties when 131 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 4: she went, and King Charles Purley in his seventies and 132 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 4: he's got cancer. It's studn see why. 133 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: While we're aware he has been unwell, does it surprise 134 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: you that he and Camilla won't stop in New Zealand. 135 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: Yes, it does because since his coronation he's known very well. 136 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: But at some point he has to turn up in 137 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: an important relationship like New Zealand as our head of state. 138 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: Now he is unwell, we know that, and he probably 139 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: is avoiding coming here on the recommendation of his doctors. 140 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: But it underscores the problem yet again that our head 141 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: of state is absent and not among us. Although Charles 142 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: and Camilla have paid occasional visits here, when he was 143 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: Crown Prince. Our head of state actually hasn't visited us 144 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: in that role since two thousand and two, which was 145 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: the last time Queen Elizabeth came in two thousand and two. 146 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: It's quite an anomaly for any country to have a 147 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: head of state who doesn't actually turn up in person 148 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: for over twenty two years, so it shows in fact, 149 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: the role now is very much different from the days 150 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: of Queen Victoria, where she could set in her widow 151 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: weeds and windsor castle and not worry too much about 152 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: the colonies in those days. Today we expect the head 153 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: of state to be active and involved in the country, 154 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: and Charles is unfortunately not able to do that. The issue, 155 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: of course, is that we don't think much about what 156 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: it requires of Charles to be our head of state. 157 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: The suggestion that he has time to spend on looking 158 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: after it's nearly fourteen thirteen fourteen other countries of which 159 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: he is head of state, and that being head of 160 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 2: state in the UK is not a full time job 161 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: is of course an anomaly. It's a huge job that 162 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: Charles has to undertake in the UK itself, and I 163 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: suspect that the subtext of him not coming to New 164 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: Zealand is a subtle hint that it's time that we 165 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: looked at taking some of the burden off the British monarchy. 166 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: And now quite recently, in the context of his trip 167 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: to Australia, he did say that it is for any 168 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: country like New Zealand, Australia or Canada to decide its 169 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: own form of representation, and if New Zealand or Australia 170 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: wished to become a republic, then of course he would 171 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 2: in no way stand in our way. That's quite right 172 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: and proper for him to say that, but it's also 173 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 2: i think a subtext as I say that he and 174 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: the British establishment would quite like New Zealand to get 175 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 2: on with the job and appoint our Governor General as 176 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: our head of state. Now some people have suggested, well, 177 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: we want to retain the monarchy because we like the 178 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: king or we like the pageantry. The point is that 179 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 2: we're not getting rid of our relationship with Britain. We're 180 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: not getting rid of our relationship with the King because 181 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: he remains Head of the Commonwealth and still is welcome 182 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 2: as a visitor here as head of the Commonwealth, except 183 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: that when he does come to New Zealand. He is 184 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: received by New Zealand's own head of State, who is 185 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: our Governor General transitioned into the role of head of state. 186 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: You mentioned as well, which I thought that was quite interesting. 187 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: Also the fact that King Charles has said that he 188 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: won't stand in the way of Australia becoming a republic 189 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: ahead of his visit there. Also monarchists in Australia have 190 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: accused the state premiers of insulting King Charles as they 191 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: will not be present at a reception welcoming him to 192 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: the country. But I guess that's a sign of the times. 193 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: The fact that all six state premiers New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, 194 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: Western Australia, South Australia, Tasmania, they've all said that they're 195 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: unable to attend. Now look back thirty years ago, for example, 196 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: or even a couple of decades ago, that would have 197 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: been unheard of. Don't you think. 198 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely unheard of when you think about the huge crowds 199 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: that welcomed Queen Elizabeth in nineteen fifty four, and even 200 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: me as a youngster stood in Tarrona Domain in nineteen 201 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: sixty three to welcome her waiver at her as she 202 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: went past the fact that the state premiers in Australia 203 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: have diplomatically said they have other things to do as 204 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: a massive vote of no confidence in the notion of 205 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: having a foreign head of state in Australia. Now, whatever 206 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 2: you might think of Charles and the royal family and 207 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: some of the individuals there, Charles is head of the Commonwealth, 208 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: so of course he's coming to sar More. But this 209 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: is for Australia to decide, and I think as far 210 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: as New Zealand's concerned, there's no great appetite at the 211 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 2: moment for discussing constitutional issues because we have a lot 212 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: of other things on. So this issue will I think, 213 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: burn along for a while yet. But nevertheless, when Australia 214 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: becomes the republic, as it eventually will, I think at 215 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: that point it does become anominally for New Zealand to 216 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 2: still be a monarchy. So I think we will probably 217 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: take our lead from Australia, even though we don't often 218 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,239 Speaker 2: like to admit that we follow Australia. 219 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: What we're saying to Australians is that it's time to 220 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: farewell the role of monarchy in Australia. The next time 221 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: may come, we'd love to welcome as visitors, absolutely welcomed 222 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: by an Australian head of state. 223 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 3: The nineteen seventy five sacking of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam 224 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 3: by Governor General Sir John Kerr remains one of the 225 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 3: country's most polarizing political events, representing an unmatched level of 226 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: intervention by the Commonwealth. Australians voted against becoming purely a 227 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 3: republic in a referendum in nineteen ninety nine, but there 228 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 3: have been repeated calls for another ballot. 229 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: What about the relationship between Maori and the crown. How 230 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: would that change? Do you think if there was no 231 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: longer a crown, Well. 232 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: There still would be a crown, of course, and the 233 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: Crown would be the King in England and he would 234 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: be head of the Commonwealth. I know that some people 235 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 2: say that the Treaty of Waitangi in eighteen forty was 236 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: signed by Queen Victoria. Well, actually it was negotiated by 237 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: her officials, and I doubt that Queen Victoria herself really 238 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: had much inkling as to what was involved in that 239 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: far off, far flung dominion of for a colony of 240 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: New Zealand. Now the British monarchy long ago has given 241 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: up any responsibility for the implementation of the Treaty of Waiteitungi, 242 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: and since eighteen forty it's been the responsibility of a 243 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: New Zealand government and the people of New Zealand to 244 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,119 Speaker 2: address the issues that arise from the Treaty of Waiteitungi. 245 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: So my argument is that although the Treaty is extremely 246 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: important in this the actual movement of the head of 247 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: State role from London to Wellington doesn't impact or impinge 248 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: directly on the question of the Treaty of White Tungy, 249 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: because that remains as it is now and is not 250 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: in any way altered or changed by having our own 251 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: head of State anything to do with the Treaty and 252 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: its role in New Zealand. As you've seen through the 253 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: Actor Treaty principles debate and the reaction from Mari people. 254 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: That's entirely a domestic New Zealand matter, and King Charles 255 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: is absolutely no role in it, and I suspect even 256 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: less an interest in it. So it's not an impediment 257 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: as such for the head of State role to return 258 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: to New Zealand or come back to New Zealand from 259 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: the UK. So Certainly people can create a mischievous argument 260 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: in saying that Mary will never allow us to become 261 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: a republic because they have an un dying love for 262 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: the British monarchy. I doubt that that is true in 263 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: my own conversations with Mari people. I think Mary people 264 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: have moved way beyond that. The point too, is that 265 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: the King Etanga is in no way impacted by having 266 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: a New Zealand head of state. In fact, it might 267 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: be the case that the New Zealand head of State 268 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: is able to accord much more priority and consideration to 269 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: the King e Tonga than King Charles can through his 270 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 2: very fleeting and occasional visits to New Zealand. There's one 271 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: important issue too, I think about having a head of state. 272 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: That is the fact that the Governor General at the 273 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: moment is hampered in her international role because she is 274 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: recognized as being the B team of our constitution and 275 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: not the A team, so that when she goes overseas, 276 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: there's no way the Governor General of New Zealand is 277 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: going to be accorded the same status as the Emperor 278 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: of Japan, or the Monarch in Holland, or any of 279 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: the Nordic monarchies, so the Governor General does stand at 280 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: a disadvantage because they don't have the correct designation as 281 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: head of state. The other point too, the government in 282 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: New Zealand, the executive in New Zealand is quite happy 283 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: to have a Governor General sitting in Government House in 284 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: Wellington that's basically on speed dial for when they need 285 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: her to come to Executive Council meetings and are quite 286 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: happy for her to undertake the investitures and ceremonial activities 287 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: that go with the Governor General's role. But to be honest, 288 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: the Parliament and Government of New Zealand do not accord 289 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: the Governor General. I believe the status and manner that 290 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 2: she should be given as head of state until she 291 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: actually becomes formally our head of state. I think it's 292 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: very easy for the New Zealand government to basically undervalue 293 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: the role of the Governor General in our society. 294 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: Jasindra durn and Chris Hopkins have both said they think 295 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: New Zealand will become a republic in their lifetime. Do 296 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: you think that's true? Is the writing on the wall? 297 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: Yes? I can't see that New Zealand will continue with 298 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 2: this arrangement. Indefinitely because it's so obviously an anomaly in 299 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 2: the twenty first century. I hope that by twenty forty, 300 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: the bi centenary of the Treaty of Waitangi, we do 301 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 2: have a New Zealand head of state who can receive 302 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: the British monarch as an equal at that stage. Now, 303 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 2: New Zealand politicians various colors and political leanings have said 304 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: they believe we should become a republic people like Jim Bolger, 305 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: Helen Clark, even Jacinda Down initially when she went into 306 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,239 Speaker 2: office was a convinced Republican. But of course reality of 307 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: office makes it difficult for them to move on this 308 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: and so it gets left aside. It all becomes too 309 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 2: hard under the pressure of day to day government and 310 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 2: political intrigue in New Zealand, so well meaning people who 311 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: actually do support the idea of having a New Zealander 312 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 2: as a head of state to find it very hard 313 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 2: in the reality of day to day politics to progress 314 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,959 Speaker 2: the idea. But yes, I think it does become obvious 315 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: over time that New Zealand needs to have a New 316 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 2: Zealander in the role. Now. I've always found it rather 317 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 2: odd that we expect the governor General to undertake this 318 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 2: role of being the King's deputy or prevoucy the Queen's 319 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: deputy in New Zealand. They did with such distinction. All 320 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: our previous Governors General I think would have made excellent 321 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: heads of state in their own right, but of course 322 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: they never get the chance to do that because they 323 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: are only the B team. If you remember the anomaly 324 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: situation during COVID when Cindy Kira was appointed Governor General, 325 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: she actually had to do that video hookup with the 326 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: Queen in England and so she got her mandate to 327 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: be Governor General of New Zealand from the Queen sitting 328 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: in the UK, not actually able to meet her in person. 329 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: It's an anomaly really to think that somehow the Governor 330 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 2: General of New Zealand can have this power bestowed on 331 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: her to be a governor journal by the British monarch 332 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: sitting thousands of miles away. 333 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Peter. That's it for this episode 334 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's 335 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at NZ Herald dot co 336 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills 337 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to 338 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 339 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.