1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A brainchild 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: of the previous Labor government, the Healthy School Lunches program 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: provides free lunches to about two hundred and forty two 5 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: thousand students in greatest need. Since its launch, the program 6 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: has often been a target by politicians and commentators of 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: the cost involved in the scheme. It's now under supervision 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: of Associate Education Minister David Seymour, and a cheaper alternative 9 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: to it launched this year, but it's faced a myriad 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: of issues, notably incidents of unappetizing, late or absent food 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 1: deliveries and a more serious case of one child suffering 12 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: second degree burns from a hot lunch. As a result, 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of meals have been left uneaten and now one 14 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: company contracted to deliver the food has gone into liquidation. 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: So why are free school lunches such a source of 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: controversy and can the government get past the negative headlines 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: around them? Today on the Front Page, we're joined by 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Victoria University of Wellington politics professor doctor Lara Greaves to 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:30,279 Speaker 1: discuss why there's no such thing as a free lunch, Lara, 20 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: are you surprised by how often we've been talking about 21 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: school lunches so far this year? I mean we're only 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: about a month and a half into the school year, 23 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: and it feels like every week we've heard stories about this. 24 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 2: I mean, look, Kaur, I'm not surprised about the school lunches. 25 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: Is the fact that there are pictures. So this is 26 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: one of those political issues where you can actually just 27 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: take a photo of a school lunch and voters can 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: make snap judgments based on a whether they would eat 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: the food or b whether they wouldn't. It's kind of 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: one of those issues where it's quite tempting and it's 31 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: quite a simple, black and white kind of issue for 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: voters when they see, you know, a picture of food 33 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: and the same way that people say things like the 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: flag riferind was quite an easy issue for people get 35 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 2: their heads around, you know, like you haven' like a 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: flagg you don't. We're not talking about something like, you know, 37 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: end of life choice or any kind of big moral 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: ethical issue. It's being framed in terms of is this 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: food yucky or yummy? Basically, and so that has meant 40 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: that it's captured a lot of political attention because journalists, 41 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: you know, here's a photo. We don't need to go 42 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: and like do some kind of big investigation. This is 43 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: just simple photo proof. 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: Well, the eighty five million dollar annual contract was won 45 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: by the school lunch Collective. Now that's a partnership between 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: Compass Group and ZAID Liberal Group and Gilmore's Liberal Group 47 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: has actually since gone into liquidation. That's going to be 48 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 1: causing the government an enormous headache. 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: Well, it's just a saga that's ongoing, really, isn't it. 50 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: I think one of the things that it speaks to 51 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: is the idea that National campaigned on that last election 52 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: as being able to better manage the country and campaigned 53 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: against laborhood had you know, all those issues in cabinet 54 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: and we're going down on various indicators. So National really 55 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: campaign on that. And what we have here now is 56 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: we have David Seymore quite firmly and the Associate Education 57 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: Minister kind of portfolio in charge of this specific contracting, 58 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: in charge of this delivery of these school lunches. And 59 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: so what it becomes has it becomes a test so 60 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: to speak, of the government, and more specifically, of course, 61 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: the buck stops off the Education Minister at the end 62 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: of the day with therap A Stanford. But that's what 63 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: it comes down to, and we've heard kind of the 64 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: latest was that term two. This is all meant to 65 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: be sorted out by so the government have kind of 66 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: set a bit of a end too, the potential school 67 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: lunch saga, although we'll see what happens there. But basically 68 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of moving parts. There's a 69 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: story every couple of days around this, and it's quite. 70 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: Really well, it's an absolute shattels, a dismal failure. 71 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: It's the debarcle. 72 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 4: A major union is calling for Erica Stanford to be 73 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 4: put in charge. The Associated Minister has really failed our 74 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 4: children and failed to provide good, healthy, wholesome lunches. Chris 75 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 4: Hipkins giving the house are low lights reel if it 76 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 4: hasn't taken feeding children melted plastic, failing to deliver lunches 77 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 4: at all, serving up the same food thirteen days in 78 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 4: a row, or serving pork to Halal's students, what will 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 4: it take for him to finally step in and sort 80 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 4: out the mess that his government is made of the 81 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 4: school lunches program? 82 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: How much do you reckon It's damaged the coalition. 83 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: It's really hard to tell how much it's damaged the coalition. 84 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,559 Speaker 2: I've been trying to find political polling on the issue 85 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: of school lunches. So there are a couple of separate 86 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: issues here. The first one is the extent to which 87 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: someone believes that the government should be providing school lunches. 88 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: And that's where I was quite surprised initially that a 89 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: center right government did support school lunches and did keep 90 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: the school lunch program going. So that was quite surprising initially, 91 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 2: especially with someone like act in government too, because they 92 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: could have used that as an excuse or you know, 93 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: I talked about the ideology behind not having school lunches 94 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: and pulling it initially, so there was that initial kind 95 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: of almost misalignment with what you would expect the government's 96 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: political ideology to be. So then we're kind of going 97 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: into starting to go into that kind of territory of Okay, well, 98 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 2: if it's not ideology, what else. Is it quite possible 99 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: that public opinion indicates that people want the school lunches, 100 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: people like the school lunchers. The only poll that I 101 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: could find was commissioned. It was like a Talbot Mills 102 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: poll prior to the change of government around whether people 103 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: supported an expansion of the school lunches program, and that 104 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: showed the majority of people did support that expansion into 105 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: kind of more schools back in twenty twenty five. So 106 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: it seems like it's a popular program overall. But we 107 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: haven't quite as far as I can seen any kind 108 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: of high quality polling on this lately. So it must 109 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: be one of those kind of middle voter vote winning 110 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: type issues. And ultimately, if that's the case, if it's 111 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: those kind of swing voters, those medium voters, that kind 112 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 2: of whatever, it is sort of five to ten percent 113 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: of people that swing between labor and national if this 114 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: is an issue they really care about, it makes a 115 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: lot of things for the government to focus on it. 116 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was quite surprised when the coalition came in 117 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: and didn't scrap it immediately. But Seymour was quite proud 118 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: of that one hundred and thirty million dollars annual cost 119 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: savings he found in his model. But do you think 120 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: we'd still even have free school lunches? Like you said 121 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: that it must be appealing to someone. 122 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: There has to be something in that, because yes, ideologically 123 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like Sema and others would be aligned 124 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: with this. I mean, of course, all of the other 125 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 2: thing we could do, we could step back for a 126 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 2: moment and not be skeptical about politicians. I mean, all 127 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: of the evidence show that you actually want to feed children, 128 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: especially ones from lowestof economic backgrounds, so they can best 129 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: concentrate in school, so they can make the most of 130 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: their learning, make the most of educational opportunities. So actually, 131 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: every single piece of evidence points to the fact that 132 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: kids need healthy school lunches that are delivered, you know, 133 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: in their lunch breaks and help fuel their learning. So 134 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: perhaps it is a case of politicians actually going well, 135 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: the evidence shows this, you know, it's a if we 136 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 2: think of the broadest social investment co PAPA, which is 137 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: long being part of the National Party platform, school lunches 138 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: has to be part of it because it helps to 139 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: you know, fuel education and make those kids make the 140 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: most of educational opportunities. So it could just be politicians 141 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: actually acting on evidence, which I mean we're often quite 142 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: syptical of well. 143 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Christopher Laxon told News Talks and Bees Mike Hosking. 144 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: If parents continue to be dissatisfied with the lunches, they 145 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: should pack them themselves. 146 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 5: I just say to you, Yep, there's always going to 147 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 5: be people that are unhappy with school lunches. 148 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: And they get that. 149 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: And if you really are unhappy with it, for God's sake, 150 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: go make them my white sandwich an apple in a bag, 151 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: just like you and I head. 152 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: Is there now becoming this attitude in New Zealand that 153 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: parents should perhaps pack their own kids lunches, because that's 154 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister saying that. 155 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: It's hard because, like I said before, there's a group 156 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: of people who ideologically really do not believe in the 157 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: state providing lunches to parents. It's quite clear that that's 158 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: a quite firm ideological position. So we know that that 159 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: idea exists in the population. We don't know how many 160 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: people agree howleheartedly with that, and we don't know like 161 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: who they vote for, although we could probably make an 162 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: educated gift that they probably are more on the right 163 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: wing side of the political spectrum, So we kind of 164 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: know that those people exist. One of the things, though, overall, 165 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: is when something becomes a meme in politic we have 166 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: this overall, we've seen this overall idea come up in 167 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: terms of the preferred Prime minister, polling and various memes, 168 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: various commentary that lux In is to some degree out 169 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: of touch. So one of the things that the government 170 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 2: and lucks them have to be really careful about here 171 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: is that that then doesn't go against what those medium voters, 172 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: what there's middle voters view as New Zealand values viewers, 173 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: giving people a fair goal, and that any kind of 174 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: rhetoric doesn't just become a meme. Like I saw a 175 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: lot of memes around about that Apple and there was 176 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: a Vigiemite Marmite and there was a lot of Marmite jokes, 177 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: you know that kind of thing. So you just have 178 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: to make sure that these things don't carry on and 179 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: contribute to that idea that the government is disconnected from 180 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: everyday New Zealanders and the economic issue. 181 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and to your point before on The Herald's Politics podcast, 182 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: the panel there suggested that the fact that lux And 183 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: has taken such a firm line on this suggests that 184 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: might be what focus groups are telling them. 185 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 5: It was quite stark, actually, the way that the government's 186 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 5: messaging on this changed almost overnight. In fact, I think 187 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 5: it was overnight we had the mar Mate and Apple's line, 188 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 5: and then every minister was using it, and that was 189 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 5: the line because I think they might have done some 190 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 5: focus grouping. Line denies that they have, but basically saying 191 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 5: it is the parent's responsibility to provide lunches, and we 192 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 5: have a wide base of people that think this, so 193 00:09:58,880 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 5: we're going to lean into that. 194 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that because it does feel, like 195 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned before, it's targeting a specific demographic of voters. 196 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: Well, when we look at that group of voters, has 197 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: been work in the New Zealand Editude of Value study 198 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 2: by Nicole Safale and others that looks at who those 199 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: voters are in that seed to block the election. Studies 200 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: looked at them as well, and they are that kind 201 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: of tended to be more likely to be a woman, 202 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: tended to be more likely to be middle aged, and 203 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: that kind of group of people we can already kind 204 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 2: of profile or stereotype is caring about kids lunches. So 205 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: that is quite possible that there are focus groups. There 206 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: are people out there saying that this would be that 207 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: school lunches are aligned in some way with key values, 208 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: are aligned some way with the interests of center voters, 209 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: And again it's a shame that we don't have more 210 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: political polls and we don't have more kind of research 211 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: and public opinion work on this, because every single data 212 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: point that we have does indicate that this might be 213 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 2: something that is focus group driven as public opinion driven, 214 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: and ultimately it does start to over time contribute to 215 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 2: people's idea about the government, about their competency, about their decisiveness, 216 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: and about their values. 217 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: Have school lunches turned into an ideological issue because there's 218 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: definitely a large portion of the population who feels that 219 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: the bare minimum of having a child is being able 220 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: to feed them every day. Right. But on the other side, 221 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: we know that poverty is a massive issue in this country, 222 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: and these lunches perhaps are freeing up those families struggling 223 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: to make ends meet to put their money elsewhere. So 224 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: is this just going to be an issue that causes 225 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: controversy no matter who's running the country. 226 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: Ultimately, we've seen, especially since the Fourth Labor Government, over 227 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: this last sort of what is it thirty forty years, 228 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: we've seen a lot of discussion over the state's role 229 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: in welfare and the state's role providing for children versus 230 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: the responsibility of individual parents of parents of fauna or 231 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: families of communities and so on and so forth. So 232 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: this is a repeated discussion that we had in New 233 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: Zealand politics going back to at least the nineteen nineties, 234 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: and actually you can kind of see it even earlier 235 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: than that, and things like the family benefit in the 236 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: post World War two period. So it's one of those 237 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: debates that we've long had in New Zealand politics and 238 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: that we can expect every few years for this debate 239 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: to evolve and change in a different way about the 240 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: role of parents and the role of things like welfare 241 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: and the role of the state. It had seemed when 242 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: National and when this government came in that school lunches 243 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: were there to stay. I guess now it does remain 244 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: to be seen as to whether the government will just 245 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: in them, just hear the band aid off and take 246 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: any public opinion hit whether they will continue this online. 247 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: But ultimately school lunches are just a new version of 248 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 2: that kind of role of the state and the role 249 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: of welfare type political debates that we've been having for decades. 250 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: David Seymour was on this podcast last year and talked 251 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: about how he agrees with providing school lunches in theory 252 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: because it's good for the economy. 253 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,359 Speaker 3: Would it be smart for New Zealand as a country 254 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: to do what they do, and say the UK or 255 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 3: partner of America where actually the kids lunch making is 256 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 3: done by a company that delivers it to the school, 257 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 3: and then parents who have the ability to pay, they pay. 258 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: Parents who don't they get it subsidized by the government. 259 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 3: Might be better than millions of parents every morning getting 260 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: up and spending a substantial amount of time making the 261 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 3: lunch when they could be out being an accountant or 262 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 3: working in a pharmacy, or doing whatever it is that 263 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 3: those parents do. 264 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that? 265 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: This is a hard one. So when we go back 266 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: to something like what would it be the purpose or 267 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 2: the point of having school lunches? One of the things, 268 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: of course, I'm an academic, so I'm going to go 269 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 2: back to what is the academic evidence here, And one 270 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: of the things that colleagues in nutrition and education have 271 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: been saying over and over again is that, yes, probably 272 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 2: giving school lunches will be good for the economy. There's 273 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: definitely an argument there because kids need to be fed 274 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: to be able to, you know, like actually make the 275 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 2: most of educational opportunities and learn things, and then they 276 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: go on to be better workers, better educated, you know, 277 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: go into professions and so on and so forth. So 278 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: there's definitely that argument there. The more time in the 279 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: Morning's argument, I'm not I mean, it's probably one of 280 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: those interesting kind of examples. Again, can't speak to that, 281 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: but overall, the body of evidence shows that long term, 282 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: at least there's an argument that they would be better 283 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 2: for the economy. 284 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: Yes, with the backlash we're seeing over the kids not 285 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: eating the food and then being ungrateful, this, that and 286 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: the other, it looking awful. I mean, I've seen some 287 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: of those pictures. I would eat some of them, but 288 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: I wouldn't eat others. Is there a real chance the 289 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: coalition could just end the school lunch program altogether? I mean, 290 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: is it really going to be that much of a 291 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: big election issue? 292 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 2: Oh see, one of the things, the school lunch program 293 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: now has continued on and going on and on and on. 294 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: And this is the thing. Remember, we have to go 295 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: back to the last leave of government. Here we build 296 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: and how many houses they were going to build, went 297 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: on and on and on, and to some degree, obviously 298 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: crises interrupted that discourse. But we have to look at 299 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: governments and like they will have these issues that go 300 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: on and on and on, and for National, for the government, 301 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: it stands. I think they will want to try to 302 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: end at least the discourse, and there's only a certain 303 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: ways that they can do that. I have a distracting 304 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: based on another issue. Either fixing the school lunch program 305 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: is one way to do it, or getting rid of it. 306 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: I mean, they're going to have to make some kind 307 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: of decision because otherwise this will go on and on. 308 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: People will get kind of bored of it. It will 309 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: become a joke, it will become a meme, and it 310 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: will become something that people can point to as the 311 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: failure of the government. And especially on your first term, 312 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: you want to limit the failures that people can point to. 313 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: You want to limit in the twenty twenty sixth election 314 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 2: the extent to which Hipkins or Labor leader at the 315 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: time can point at National and say, well, you failed 316 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: on the school lunches. You couldn't even manage that program. 317 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: So it's going to be a continuing issue, and I 318 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: think we will see some kind of ending of it, 319 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: whether it is trying to distract everyone or ending the 320 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: school lunch program. 321 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: What do you reckon is the most likely because they're 322 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: not going to be spending any more money to make 323 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: it any better. 324 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: Oh, it's a struggle, there isn't it. I wouldn't be 325 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: surprised if they ended it. It aligns with the broader ideology. 326 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 2: And we're still quite a way away up from the election. 327 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: So there's certain certain kind of hits that you need 328 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: to take in government with certain issues that you need 329 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: to just sweep under the rug or lose or not 330 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: succeed on, and this might be one of them for 331 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: National But yeah, it remains to be seen, and it's 332 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: also remains to be seen the extent to which it 333 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: would blowback on Seymour. We saw an interview on Q 334 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: and A not long ago of Erica Stanford in the 335 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: role as Education Minister, and she kind of did say, well, 336 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: it's Seymour's area at Seymour's area. Yeah. The extent to 337 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: which it reflects back on Seymour versus other parts of 338 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: the coalition again remains to be seen. 339 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Lara Da. 340 00:16:59,040 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: Thank you. 341 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 342 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 343 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: at enzdherld dot co, dot MZ. The Front Page is 344 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 345 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 346 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 347 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.