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Speaker 1: The Huddled with New Zealand Southby's international realty, local and

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Speaker 1: global exposure.

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Speaker 2: Like Noah the Huddle, We've got Claire de Law, journalist

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Speaker 2: and Rob Campbell, vice Chancellor of aut former Health New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Heare hello you too, Hello there, Claire. What do you

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Speaker 2: make of the Erica versus jan Stout stout over the

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Speaker 2: B word?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean Eric has done the right thing by saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, sorry, she's stemming the the ongoing debate about

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Speaker 3: whether she's going to apologize, and you know she's put

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Speaker 3: it right, I suppose to an extent. But I do

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Speaker 3: think that Parliament seems to have got a little bit

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Speaker 3: out of hand of late, in the sense that people

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Speaker 3: say it as and ala carte menu of rules. Now

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Speaker 3: they're kind of designed for everyone for a reason. Now,

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm being keeny bit old fashioned, but I think

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Speaker 3: that works better where everyone doesn't decide which rules apply

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Speaker 3: to them and which don't. Parliament's always held in the

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Speaker 3: lowest of regard by people, along with journalists side. But

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Speaker 3: I tell you why I don't read it.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand clear why the Labor Party didn't stop

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Speaker 2: and think that if you can complain about Erica breaking

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Speaker 2: the rules. People who go be like bang on to

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Speaker 2: take you people just broke the rules about three times.

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Speaker 3: There's so many examples you could give in the last

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Speaker 3: little while across all parties. But yes, I agree that

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Speaker 3: last week hasn't mean they're fines start or labor, but

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Speaker 3: I think it should, you know, it should sort of

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Speaker 3: cross party political lines and just be a general standard

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Speaker 3: because parliamentarians do enjoy something the rest of us don't.

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Speaker 3: They have absolute privilege to hopefully not abuse each other

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Speaker 3: in the House, but to actually deal with some of

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Speaker 3: the more serious issues facing the country. And if they

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Speaker 3: get on and do that, we probably have a higher

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Speaker 3: opinion of them that at the moment, I'd say the

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Speaker 3: standing of parliament's pretty low.

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Speaker 4: Robert, you what, it's a bit disappointing. I didn't know

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Speaker 4: we didn't have privilege to say whatever we felt like

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Speaker 4: and give it a go. Rock never really understood that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's sort of bit childish, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: But you know, good can come with these things. I

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Speaker 4: remember when Cinder are doing quite rightly called David Seymour

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Speaker 4: or a arrogant prick, and I think she withdrew and apologized,

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Speaker 4: but they then managed jointly to auction the transcript of

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Speaker 4: it for one hundred thousand dollars to a VET on

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Speaker 4: the West coast and raise the money for charity, which

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Speaker 4: tells you more about what vets in than anything I guess.

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Speaker 4: But you know good can come with these things, so

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Speaker 4: I suggests that's what they do. Frame it up, auction it.

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Speaker 2: Yep to right, Hey, robire you happy to see the

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Speaker 2: back of the gang patches or are you feeling are

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Speaker 2: you sympathizing with the poor wee blighters?

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Speaker 4: I think it's one of many diversions that have been

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Speaker 4: created at the moment. I don't think it matters very

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Speaker 4: much to anyone, but some gang members I think they'll

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Speaker 4: I think they'll get around it. But it's performative, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: Look at what we're doing, look at how we're being hard,

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Speaker 4: And I don't think it solves any issues at all.

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Speaker 4: It's not going to stop young people joining gangs because

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Speaker 4: the reasons they join gangs are not being changed by that.

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Speaker 2: Having said that, Rob, having said that Dennis are himself

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Speaker 2: of a Black Power Life member, said that he actually

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Speaker 2: think this good could come of it because maybe some

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Speaker 2: gang members will actually find a reason here to break

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Speaker 2: their ties with the gang.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, lots of people do, and I respect innis

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Speaker 4: a view. He's very knowledgeable on the gangs, and as

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Speaker 4: you say, he's been close to and a member of

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Speaker 4: Black Power for a long time, so I respect his

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Speaker 4: judgment on that. Maybe some people will leave gangs. There

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Speaker 4: is a fair degree of turnover in them, and some

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Speaker 4: of the chapters of various gangs have actually got on

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Speaker 4: to a better path than they were on some years ago.

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Speaker 4: Many haven't. So there are real issues with gangs in

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Speaker 4: New Zealand, but the patches, really, I don't think it

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Speaker 4: matters ech of a lot.

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Speaker 2: Tell you what, okayl this is why I'm happy about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm happy about it for a bunch of reasons,

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Speaker 2: but mainly because it's us just reminding them who's actually

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Speaker 2: in charging, and it ain't them.

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Speaker 3: Well, they know who normally is in charge. But in

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Speaker 3: their own areas they are pretty well organized, don't they.

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Speaker 3: And I do wonder whether this is going to become

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Speaker 3: a time consuming cat and mouth game, because what are

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Speaker 3: you going to do about, for example, forcing someone to

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Speaker 3: take off offensive clothing and they have mungrel mobil Black

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Speaker 3: Power tattooed right across the Also.

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Speaker 2: I think they're allowed to have their back.

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Speaker 3: Are they allowed that?

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Speaker 4: Yes? I guess you are. What your point? Marsia lasted

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Speaker 4: quite a long time and all they wore was really

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Speaker 4: classy suits. They didn't need patches or anything. So there's

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Speaker 4: still plenty of crime going on. There's still plenty of

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Speaker 4: crime being committed by people who are not in gangs.

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Speaker 4: So I'm not saying gangs are not an issue, that

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Speaker 4: gangs are good for people. I don't think they are.

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Speaker 4: But you know, this idea that we're sold in crime

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Speaker 4: by doing things like this, it's a performance, not real.

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Speaker 3: And there are enough gang members to tie up police

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Speaker 3: time on this one, you know, I do. I don't

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Speaker 3: think they're going to mind terribly much about another appearance

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Speaker 3: in court, you know, if they're that hardened, that's not

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Speaker 3: going to be there.

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Speaker 2: But well, once they've done all the prospecting that earns

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Speaker 2: them a patch, this is going to be the least

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Speaker 2: of their as I would thought. All right, we'll take

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Speaker 2: a break, come back to you guys in just six seas.

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Speaker 1: The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty elevate the

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Speaker 1: marketing of your home.

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Speaker 2: You back of the huddle cleared to law and Rob Campbell. Rob,

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Speaker 2: I see you signed that letter to the government from

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Speaker 2: the economists.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was an outstanding group of scholars, wasn't it.

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Speaker 4: Heather On knew it'd be impressed by Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's amazing. And I was also very pleased

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Speaker 2: to learn that you are in fact an economist. So

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Speaker 2: but we checked you on Wikipedia and you are. So

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Speaker 2: you've got the credentials. So what is the spending that

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Speaker 2: you want to keep.

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Speaker 4: Well, we want to keep any productive spending on infrastructure,

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Speaker 4: spending on supporting Farno, spending on supporting young people who

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Speaker 4: acquire it. There's plenty to spend on. It needs to

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Speaker 4: be spent wisely. It shouldn't just be a lolly scramble.

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Speaker 4: So the group was all for discipline about the spending,

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Speaker 4: but particularly spending on things like health and water and

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Speaker 4: other infrastructure are really important for both of them. So

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Speaker 4: and because they're only going to cost more further down

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Speaker 4: the track, but because of the general impact on the

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Speaker 4: economy as we are in a recession and we're stuck

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Speaker 4: in it and looks increasingly as if we're going to

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Speaker 4: be in it through twenty twenty five. There is a

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Speaker 4: role for government to be leading. It needs to lead wisely.

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Speaker 4: It needs to spend on things that actually have long

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Speaker 4: term value. But the idea that you cut, cut, cut,

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Speaker 4: and that things eventually come right is one that really

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Speaker 4: has been pretty discredited in economies worldwide. That's all we say.

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Speaker 2: But Rob, we have a structural deficit, so we have

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Speaker 2: to cut spending.

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Speaker 4: Well, what do you mean by a structural deficit? We

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Speaker 4: have a significant government deficit.

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Speaker 2: Well, deficit is where you have your revenues coming in

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Speaker 2: are less than you are spending in expenses.

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Speaker 4: But you're talking about you're talking simply about the government deficit.

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Speaker 4: The government deficit in New Zealand is significant historically for

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Speaker 4: New Zealand, but it is not very large in global terms,

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Speaker 4: and it's not the most significant issue that we face

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Speaker 4: the present time at all the time. The much bigger

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Speaker 4: problem is the deficit in terms of our position vis

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Speaker 4: a v. Offshore, which is largely driven by the private

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Speaker 4: sector rather than the government sector. That'sing that people do

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Speaker 4: not really understanding different deficits that people have.

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Speaker 2: But so you think it as an economist, which I'm

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Speaker 2: not you think it is okay to spend more every

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Speaker 2: single year than you bring in in tax revenue.

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Speaker 4: In the circumstances we're in at the moment. Yes, from

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Speaker 4: a government point of view, that is perfectly sensible, and

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Speaker 4: in doing so you can actually assist to offset the

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Speaker 4: balance of payment side of that, the external deficits that

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Speaker 4: are important and which are largely driven by the private sector.

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Speaker 4: You don't you don't solve that by cutting back on

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Speaker 4: what the government spends, allowing pressures to build up for

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Speaker 4: future investment, and at the same time increasing the private

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Speaker 4: borrowings visa v what's coming into the country. So there's

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Speaker 4: a very sort of very low level understanding of what's involved.

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Speaker 2: In Okay, now, Claire, I know you're not an economist,

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Speaker 2: but do you.

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Speaker 3: Have you're just about to say that.

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Speaker 2: A taxpayer. Then come at it from a taxpayer's perspective,

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Speaker 2: what do you want?

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, coming at it from a taxpayer perspective, I

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Speaker 3: would say, of course, if you look take you know,

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Speaker 3: like our biggest spend is help, I think it is

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Speaker 3: a bottomless pit and we could keep pouring more and

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Speaker 3: more money in there. I do think that, you know,

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Speaker 3: when you look at the money that was allocated for

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Speaker 3: mental health a few years ago. There was nothing really

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Speaker 3: to show for it, and that was hugely disappointing to

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Speaker 3: those of us who had really sort of been hoping

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Speaker 3: that that could be a breakthrough. On the other hand,

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Speaker 3: I do wonder how much more we can keep cutting

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Speaker 3: in the so called back rooms without it affecting the

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Speaker 3: front line. And the front line, you know, it does

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Speaker 3: depend on a back So you're just going to have

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Speaker 3: to We're just gonna have to wait. And seems I

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Speaker 3: don't see the government's going to listen to you, Rob.

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Speaker 3: I think the government at the moment has got its

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Speaker 3: fingers and its airs. It's put an awful lot of

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Speaker 3: hope on a few people who are who they say

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Speaker 3: is key to changing not just health but all aspects

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Speaker 3: of a public sector, and they're going full steam ahead.

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Speaker 3: It kind of reminds me at this intervention today of

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Speaker 3: when David LONGI, you know, in eighty five, you know,

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Speaker 3: said it's time for a cup of tea, when he

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Speaker 3: was trying to stop the roller coaster of Roger nomics,

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Speaker 3: the newer part of those reforms to Rob. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's one of those things Their philosophy is push

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Speaker 3: your head as fast as you can, which is what

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Speaker 3: Roger said.

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Speaker 2: They're not pushing your head fast enough, clear by Robert

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Speaker 2: McCullough standards, but that was his Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was that was Roger Douglas's philosophy.

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Speaker 2: We've got to leave it the extent a run out

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Speaker 2: of time. Listen, I appreciate the pair of you, thanks

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Speaker 2: so much. As clear to Law and Rob Campbell a

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Speaker 2: huddle this.

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Speaker 1: Evening for more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live

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