1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Gilda. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,079 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In recent months, 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: stories of extreme turbulence have come to dominate travel headlines. 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 2: A flight between Spain and Uruguay this week had to 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: be diverted to Brazil after dozens were injured due to turbulence. 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: In one case, in April, a man on board an 8 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: Air New Zealand flight from Balley broke his leg, while 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: in May, a violent Singapore Airlines flight saw dozens hospitalized 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: and one passenger dive. On top of all this, we're 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: also seeing multiple stories of domestic flights where planes have 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: had issues landing, and local and international flights getting turned 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: around midway through their journeys due to technical issues. So 14 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 2: why are more flights seeing extreme turbulence? Should we be 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: concerned by flights turning around? And what are your rights 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: as a passenger if flights go wrong. We'll touch on 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: that last point later, but first on the front Page, 18 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 2: we're joined by the chief executive of Massy University's School 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 2: of Aviation as Shock potal Wall. Just to start with 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: the shock, I understand you've got over twelve thousand hours 21 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 2: of airline jet flying experience. Is that correct? 22 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: Yes, that would be correct. 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: So you know what you're talking about when it comes 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: to planes. 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 3: I would like to think so. 26 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: So a shock. When we talk about turbulence, what are 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: we referring to exactly? 28 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 4: Turbulence has simply put the movement of air created by 29 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 4: atmospheric pressure. You know things called jet streams, floor around mountains, thunderstorms, etc. 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 4: To give you an analogy, it's like a car is 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 4: traveling at six hundred kilometers per how if it hits 32 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 4: a bumpy st road, you will be jolted in the air. 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 4: It's basically horizontal or vertical changes in wind speed, which 34 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 4: is called wind shear that happens when the aircraft is 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 4: traveling through the air, and that causes the turbulence. 36 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: Why do you think extreme turbulence is becoming more of 37 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: an issue now? I've seen some suggestions that climate change 38 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: is to blame. 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 4: Well, all I can said the stage is that is 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 4: a theory that is being put forward, and the number 41 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 4: of incidents of turbulence in recent times have been more 42 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 4: in quick succession. Put it that way, Whether this is 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 4: going to be an ongoing trend or not remains to 44 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 4: be seen. But there is a study that you or 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 4: may or may not have seen by the University of 46 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: Reading where they have talked about the link between climate 47 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 4: change and turbulence and they're forecasting that turbulence incidents are 48 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 4: going to increase in future. They've done a study from 49 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine onwards, I believe, and they're focusing that 50 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 4: the increase due to basically a climate change is what 51 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 4: they're saying. There would be more incidents of turblence, But 52 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 4: at the moment, I would say this could be a 53 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 4: cluster because you have things like cluster of events happening 54 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 4: random events, and that then creates a perception that there 55 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 4: is an increase in that particular type of event. 56 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: There's also been dozens of stories in recent weeks involving 57 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: planes departing New Zealand and then actually having to turn 58 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: around mid flight due to technical issues. What goes into 59 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: that decision making to turn a flight around, Well. 60 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 3: That entirely depends on the nature of the issue. 61 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 4: Chelsea, because if it is an issue that would impact 62 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 4: the progress of the flight ongoing and it's not safe, 63 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 4: then the pilots would take a decision to come back 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 4: and a lot of these decisions are also taken in 65 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 4: conjunction with the ground because most airlines have something called 66 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 4: an integrated Operations Control Center, and so they're constantly in touch. 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 3: With the aircraft. 68 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 4: So the nature of the problem is communicated there, and 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 4: then the pilots can make a decision either to carry 70 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 4: on or to divert to an alternative field, or to 71 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 4: turn around and come back. So it just depends on 72 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 4: the circumstances. 73 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: And I suppose we can have solace in the fact 74 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: that if a flight does have to turn around, it 75 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: really does, doesn't I saw it just yesterday in Auckland 76 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: to China. Flight had to turn back after seven hours 77 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: of flying. Could you imagine being up in the air 78 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: for fourteen hours and ending up in the same place 79 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: where you left off from. But I can imagine that 80 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: there would have been some serious conversations and it would 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: have actually had to seriously turn back. 82 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 4: Hey, absolutely correct. That kind of a decision is not 83 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 4: made by one individual. They said, communicate the information that's 84 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 4: available to the OPS control center, which has engineers, which 85 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 4: has operations people, you know, the whole range of the 86 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 4: commercial staff there, and then they make a considered decision. 87 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 4: Something like this are not made likely. J just now passengers 88 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 4: are not going to be very happy with that. 89 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: Virgil, a flight from Queenstown to Melbourne has been diverted 90 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: to in Vericago. 91 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 5: We have just received this video of the plane with 92 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,799 Speaker 5: flames being seen coming from one of the engines. 93 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: It started out as a seemingly normal landing in christ Church. 94 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: That soon flight JQ two to five from Auckland slid 95 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: off the runway. 96 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: We've seen two problem flights at Invicago Airport of all places, 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 2: in the past month. One Melbourne bound flight from Queenstown 98 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: had to make an emergency landing after the engines seemed 99 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: to catch fire, while a domestic flight had to circle 100 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: the surrounding area for two hours after landing gear issues. 101 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 2: In your experience as a pilot, how common are technical 102 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: issues like this? 103 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 4: I have a background with mathematics. You know, the probability 104 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 4: of something happening is mathematically extremely low. There are about 105 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 4: roughly between ninety nine thousand to one hundred thousand flights 106 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 4: globally every day. With that volume of flights, if you 107 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 4: have a few odd incidents happening, I don't know if 108 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 4: they happen every day percentage or probability of the currents 109 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 4: of such events is extremely rare. 110 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 3: Now the one about the engine fire. 111 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 4: You talked about engine fires are very rare, so our 112 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 4: aircraft fires, catastrophic failures. 113 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 3: Are extremely rare. Just a little bit. 114 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 4: Of information for you if you're interested that for an 115 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,679 Speaker 4: aircraft to be certified, the risk of any catastrophic component failure, 116 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 4: the components that are critical and that would cause a 117 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 4: catastrophic failure, the risk of that has to be lower 118 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 4: than one to ten to the power of nine, one 119 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 4: upon ten to the power of nine, or ten to 120 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 4: the power of minus nine. 121 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: It has to be lower than that. 122 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 4: So basically what you're saying is, if you throw ten 123 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 4: dice and the chances of all of them coming up 124 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 4: with the same number, the probable of a catastrophic failure 125 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 4: has to be. 126 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 3: Less than that. 127 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 2: Does the public have a right to panic in these situations? 128 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: And what would your advice be? 129 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 3: Okay, so let's look at what can be done about it. 130 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 4: One of the things that I always advocated keeping the 131 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 4: seat bills on at all times when seated, even if 132 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 4: you're sleeping. Keep the seat bilts on, perhaps loosely, but 133 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 4: keep it on and you may see that most salelines 134 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 4: have an announcement saying it's recommended that seat bills should 135 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 4: be kept on. I'm not sure if any measures are 136 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 4: going to be taken now with increasing number of turbulence 137 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: incident possibilities, whether they will mandate that, because for takeoff 138 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 4: and landing it's mandated you have to have your seat 139 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 4: bilts on in the air during crews. Whether you have 140 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 4: to keep it on or not as a mandatory requirement, 141 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 4: I'm not sure, but there is conversations happening around that. 142 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 4: But keeping it on at all times except maybe you're 143 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 4: stretching your legs or going to toilet is most important. 144 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 4: That's one that's really the key thing that a passenger 145 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 4: can do when on flight to remain safe. It's no 146 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 4: different from bearing a seat built when you're in the 147 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 4: car driving. 148 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: Earlier this year we saw several incidents involving Boeing planes. 149 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: Are you concerned at all by what you're saying in 150 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: regards to Boeing. 151 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 4: Boeing has unfortunately had some issues around quality assurance, and 152 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 4: there's investigations going on in America. Federal avis administration has 153 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 4: started investigations. The Boeing chief executive has had to face 154 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 4: a Senate hearing a while ago about these issues. There 155 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 4: are thousands, hundreds of thousands of Boeing aircraft flying across 156 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 4: the world, so I don't see any immediate serious issue 157 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 4: because once again the aviation industry, the moment anything is 158 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 4: identified that could be a significant risk, they've ground the 159 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 4: entire fleet, like you might have heard about the Boeing 160 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 4: Max issues, which happened when two Amax aircraft crashed some 161 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 4: some years ago, and then they grounded the whole Max 162 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 4: fleet for about two years before they could get it 163 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 4: back up into the air. So the safety structure scaffolding 164 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 4: around airline operations or aircraft operations is quite robust when. 165 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: We talk about quality assurance issues within Boeing and that's 166 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 2: being investigated. Is that like taking your analogy with the dice? 167 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: Have they not rolled that dice ten times? 168 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 4: I suppose not exactly, just that there were some whistleblowers 169 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 4: who talked about them taking some shortcuts, you know, where 170 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 4: the commercial imperative overcomes the safety impertative, so to PA speak. 171 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 4: So I'm not quite sure. I can't speak for what 172 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 4: kind of shortcuts, if any, because I can only read 173 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 4: what's in the news because they talk about going having 174 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 4: cut some corners when they were manufacturing aircraft, So that's 175 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 4: really the issue. But I wouldn't say that it's anything 176 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 4: around when I talked about rolling the dice, because those 177 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 4: are what you call critical components which would cause an 178 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 4: aircraft to crash if they were not quality issued appropertly. 179 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: In terms of these events, how much of it is 180 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: technological challenges and how much of it is actually in 181 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: the hands of the pilot? Sully comes to mind for me. 182 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 2: Is there a balance there? 183 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: There is? 184 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 4: Aircraft are very highly automated, So what's happening these days 185 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 4: is the role of the pilot is changing from basic 186 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 4: stick and rudder. If you go back fifty years, when 187 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 4: it was all about your capability to practically handle the 188 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 4: aircraft physically, it's changed from that into actually managing the 189 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 4: automation to achieve a safe outcome. So, yes, the role 190 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 4: of the pilot is changing. Automation has made it very 191 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 4: much safer. There are there are many types of accidents 192 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 4: that used to happen in the past that have been 193 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: significantly reduced. 194 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: For example, flight into terrain. 195 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 4: We have terrain avoidance warning systems that's stopped a lot 196 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 4: of terrain related accidents where people are descended into terrain 197 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: without knowing that it was there in bad weather, for example. 198 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 4: Then there's the what's called the traffic advisory systems that 199 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 4: they have on aircraft where it actually tells you when 200 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 4: there's another aircraft closing or within within a particular range. 201 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 4: It gives you a warning. And now the automated systems 202 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 4: will actually take over and take aways of action as needed. 203 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 3: So there are. 204 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 4: Various technological advancements that have made huge improvements in safety, 205 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 4: and the pilots have to learn how to manage that 206 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 4: automation and also trust the automation and make decisions which 207 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 4: are based on the circumstance of the time. So yes, 208 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 4: the role is changing, but it's a combination of both. 209 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 4: The automation is a huge help for pilots. 210 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us. 211 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 5: A shock. 212 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: When we board a plane, we all expect to get 213 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: to our destination in one piece, not end up in 214 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: a different country or even back where we started. But 215 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: what are your rights as a passenger when things do 216 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: go wrong? We're joined now by Consumer and z Ed's 217 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: Jessica Walker. Let's start with turbulence. Jessica, if you get 218 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: injured mid flight, what can you actually do about it 219 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 2: from a consumer point of view. 220 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 5: So turbulence is a really interesting one and this isn't 221 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 5: something that our members have complained to us about as yet, 222 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 5: so we don't have advice ready to go. But you know, 223 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 5: generally speaking, when something happens that is outside the airlines control, 224 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 5: so something like turbulence. You know, looking at what happened 225 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 5: with the recent extreme event, I believe it was the 226 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 5: Singapore Airlines or it's between things poor in an Auckland flight. 227 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 5: The airline seem to handle that really well. So that'll 228 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 5: be your first part of call would be to go 229 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 5: to the airline, ask for us this sense and see 230 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 5: what they can do to help you out. We've been 231 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 5: reading that this is something that is expected to be 232 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 5: increasing in coming years, and so it's something that consumers 233 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 5: do need to be aware of when they're bucking flights. 234 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 5: I know from my experience in the office that people 235 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 5: who are already nervous travelers, it's giving them something else 236 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 5: to worry about. But it's really important that you have 237 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 5: a conversation with the airline if anything like that is 238 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 5: to happen, because that will be your best part of call. 239 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 2: It's probably more common that your flight might end up 240 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: in the wrong destination hey, or actually back where it's 241 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: started in some cases, what can you do in this situation? 242 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: Is that something you can take up with the airliner 243 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: or get a refund, or what can you do. 244 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 5: So again, that would be something that's clustered outside the 245 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 5: airline's control because you know, they couldn't have foreseen that happening. 246 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 5: Or you know, if there's an extreme weather event which 247 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 5: results in in turbulence, then they're doing what they can 248 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 5: to keep you safe. And so it's not, for example, 249 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 5: like a maintenance issue with an aeroplane, which means that 250 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 5: either your flight's delayed or canceled or you end up 251 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 5: in the wrong city. In those circumstances, you've got really 252 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 5: clear rights. And so in an example where there is 253 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 5: an extreme event like turbulence and the airline has done 254 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 5: all it can to protect you but gets you to 255 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 5: the safest point of disembarking if you like, then the 256 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 5: rules it would be different when. 257 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: We talk about things that are in the airline's control. 258 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: What kind of things are those? 259 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 5: So that's things like maintenance. So if there's a problem 260 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 5: with the airplane, which means it can't take off if 261 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 5: there's something like staff sickness, which happened and awful like 262 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 5: this time two years ago. We were calling it air 263 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 5: Mageddon in the office, and that was because so many 264 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 5: flights were being canceled because of staff shortages due to 265 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 5: a COVID wave. 266 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: In New Zealand. S is it's cutting its flight schedule 267 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: over the next six months. There's the airline experiences the 268 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: highest level and crew sicknesses, and over a decade, around 269 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand passengers will have your flights canceled or rescheduled, 270 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: which is concerns about the rights of consumers. 271 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 5: So all those things, the things that theoretically are within 272 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 5: the control of the airline, things that are outside of 273 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 5: the control of the airline are things that wouldn't really 274 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 5: come as a surprise to you. So and the COVID 275 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 5: restrictions were in place and flights were grounded, we knew 276 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 5: what the rules were, and so it was no surprise 277 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 5: to any of us that certain flights weren't taking off. 278 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 5: Or if there is really extreme weather, you know, for example, 279 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 5: you look at the window and it's really thick fog, 280 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 5: then it's not going to be a surprise to you 281 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 5: that the airline decides to cancel or delay a flight 282 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 5: and that is for safety issues, but that is something 283 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,479 Speaker 5: that they couldn't have foreseen, and so in those instances 284 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 5: we were classed as outside the airlines control, and so 285 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 5: your rights are quite different. 286 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: What are your rights when say your flight is canceled 287 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: due to something within the airline's control. 288 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 5: So if it's a domestic flight and the cancelation is 289 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 5: for reasons within the airlines'es control, the first thing we 290 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 5: would always urge impacted passengers to do is to find 291 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 5: out what the reason for the cancelation or delay is, 292 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 5: because we are hearing that this is getting better, that 293 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 5: communications from airlines is improving, and that's something we've pushed 294 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 5: them really hard on. But it used to be they 295 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 5: weren't always upfront about the reason for the cancelation or delay, 296 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 5: which put you in a really tricky situation as a 297 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 5: consumer to know what your rights were. But if the 298 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 5: airline is clear with you that So the example I 299 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 5: gave before, you know a maintenance issue which means that 300 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 5: the flight is unavailable or the planes unavailable, then in 301 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 5: that instance you are entitled to reimbursement up to ten 302 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 5: times the cost of the ticket or the cost of 303 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 5: the delay, whichever is lower. So the cost of delay 304 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 5: could be things like a new flight, perhaps accommodation if 305 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 5: there isn't a flight available until the next day to 306 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 5: meals so you know, you shouldn't be in a worse 307 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 5: off position just because the flight didn't take off. See, 308 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 5: you need to keep hold of all of your receipts 309 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 5: and then submit those to the airline and put your 310 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 5: claim in. You'd find that both the airlines jets down 311 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 5: in their New Zealand would say that claims have to 312 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 5: be reasonable. So what that means is, you know, you 313 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 5: couldn't go and buck into a five style hotel that's 314 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 5: five hundred dollars a night and expect to get that reimbursed. 315 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 5: For one reason, it's because there is a cap of 316 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 5: ten times the cost of the ticket. But also they 317 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 5: would say that that's not really fair. However, if the 318 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 5: only accommodation that is available is that price and it 319 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 5: does come within the lower end of the limit, it's 320 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 5: not your fault, is it. So I think the thing 321 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 5: to bear in mind is that you shouldn't be out 322 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 5: of pocket because of a delay or cancelation that is 323 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 5: within the airlines control and. 324 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: Other things you can ask for as well. You mentioned meals, 325 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: but also perhaps could you get a change of clothes, toothbrush, toothpaste, 326 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: things like that. 327 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I guess it would depend on the 328 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 5: situation because it is all about what's reasonable. So you know, 329 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 5: so you're traveling and your somewhere longer than you're expected 330 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 5: to be, so it might be that you need, you know, 331 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 5: something to sleep in and a clean pair of bundis 332 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 5: for the next day, in a toothbrush, you know, so 333 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 5: that they would be reasonable things that you could claim for. 334 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 5: But you couldn't go out and buy a whole new wardrobe, 335 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 5: so it's just about being reasonable. Otherwise the airline is 336 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 5: likely to decline your request. 337 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: Is that the same with international flights as will or 338 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: is it slightly different. 339 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 5: International flights is different because it depends who you are 340 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 5: flying with where you're flying to and from. So for example, 341 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 5: if you are whether European airline or departing from a 342 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 5: European airline, you've got great protections. So it's definitely worth 343 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 5: heading to our website or doing a Google just to 344 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 5: see what your rights are if you are impacted by 345 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 5: an international delay. Or cancelation, because it really is quite 346 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 5: different for different jurisdictions. So the States have got different rules, 347 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 5: Australia has different rules. So the advice that I'm giving 348 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 5: now relates to domestic airlines, but most times you will 349 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 5: have some really pretty good protections. So it really pays 350 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 5: to not necessarily just take what the international airline is 351 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 5: telling you as gospel. You know, from my own experience, 352 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 5: I've had to put your hard in the past with 353 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 5: British airways. My in laws have done the same, and 354 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 5: it works. If you know you're rights, you are in 355 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 5: a really powerful position. 356 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: I guess a lot of people may be quite surprised 357 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: on what they actually can claim. 358 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 5: I think that's right, and that's one of the reasons 359 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 5: that we launched a campaign a couple of years ago. 360 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 5: We called it our Flight Rights Campaign, and that's because 361 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 5: we were getting no end of members and people that 362 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 5: were aware of us getting in touch to say they 363 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 5: were surprised that the flight was delayed or canceled and 364 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 5: all of a sudden, they're incurring all these fees. And 365 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 5: what we found was that people didn't understand their rights 366 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 5: because the airlines weren't being upfront and you know worst 367 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 5: case scenario. We found that some people were actually being 368 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 5: misled and we didn't think that was fair, and that 369 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 5: could have been that they just weren't being told their rights, 370 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 5: but also there were some airlines telling people that they 371 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 5: could claim up to a set field. I think it 372 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 5: was one hundred and fifty dollars a night for accommodation 373 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 5: and thirty dollars for a meal. But our argument was 374 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 5: that's not fair because that's not actually in the Civil 375 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 5: Aviation Act, that's not written down anywhere, and so of 376 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 5: course any reimbursement claims should be reasonable, but people shouldn't 377 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 5: be out of pocket, and so we think it's really 378 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 5: important that people do familiarize themselves with their rights. And 379 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 5: as they say, we are hearing anecdotally that the moment 380 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 5: there has been a flurry of cancelations and it does 381 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 5: seem that Air New Zealand and this instance have been 382 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 5: really good and upfront about the reason for the cancelation. 383 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 5: But it's definitely worth doing a quick google head to 384 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 5: our campaign page just to find out what your rights 385 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 5: are so that you can make sure you're not being 386 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 5: shortchanged if you fail to take off. 387 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us. 388 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: JESSICAA. 389 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 390 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 391 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 392 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Paddy Fox. I'm 393 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or 394 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 395 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: another look behind the headlines.