WEBVTT - Five years since the first lockdown: Are we doing enough to prepare for the next pandemic? 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:06.800 Hielda. 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.000 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:17.040 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. At eleven 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.720 fifty nine pm on March twenty fifth, twenty twenty, New 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:27.400 Zealand entered its first Level four COVID nineteen lockdown. To many, 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.360 that moment may feel like it happened just yesterday, while 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.919 others are glad it's firmly in the past. Whatever your 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.720 feelings are about New Zealand's response to the COVID pandemic, 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.920 that first lockdown was a life altering event for many 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:42.360 of us. 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:43.760 Five years on. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.879 Did it change us for the better? Or did it 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:48.120 kickstart something else? 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:48.760 Entirely? 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:54.000 University of Otago epidemiologist Michael Baker became a household name 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.279 overnight for his commentary during the pandemic. He joins us 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.440 today on the Front Page to look back at the 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:11.720 start of the pandemic and forward towards potentially the next one. So, Michael, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:15.479 it's been five years since the first lockdown started. 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:17.360 Can you believe it's been that long? 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.039 Some days it seems longer, some days it seems like yesterday. 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:23.399 I mean, I feel like I know what your answer 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.559 will be already. But do you think that a call 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.119 for a nationwide lockdown was the right one? 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.720 Yes. But one of the things about lockdown is that 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.520 the term is used very differently if you're trying to 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.800 stamp out the virus, if you're going for elimination, versus 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.960 how the term was used in most countries that were 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.640 not trying to get rid of the virus. They were 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.200 just suppressing it to stop it overwhelming the system. And 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:53.000 that's how old influenza plan, which is about flattening the 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.640 curve and trying not to overwhelm the health system, it 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:00.400 took I think a radical approach and said we want 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.880 to get rid of the virus entirely. And that is 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.280 a very different use of lockdown because it's for a 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.800 much shorter period. I think with lockdowns we've got a 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.040 real problem with the terminology and that in much of 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.200 the world they were used to flatten the curve, and 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.760 that's the old approach to influenza in our pandemic plan, 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.400 whereas in New Zealand we had a much more radical approach, 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.320 which was to eliminate the virus entirely. We went alone. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.120 I mean China had led the way and then countries 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:31.160 like Australia, Taiwan, Singapore and actually quite a few countries 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.440 in Southeast Asia adopted the same approach and in that 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.519 situation using lockdowns hopefully for a short period of time 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.960 to stamp out the virus and then you can go 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:42.120 back to life as usual. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:44.320 Do you think if we had our time again, we 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:45.840 would take the same approach. 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.359 I think so, and for good reason. I mean, we've 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.280 had the raw Commission of Inquiry into the COVID response 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.960 that produced a very large, comprehensive report that was released 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.480 in November last year, and they concluded that this was 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.440 the optimal approach. We've also done a lot of research 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:06.480 on this, comparing countries that took elimination approaches with those 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.200 that use suppression and mitigation, which is a reduced level 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.240 of control, and the outcomes were so much better for 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.040 countries that took elimination. I think it should be the 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.080 default choice in future. Ever pandemic has sufficient severity, and 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.520 we're talking about with COVID nineteen a case fatality risk 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.959 of getting up towards one percent. Initially before we had vaccines, 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.560 and if you think back to nineteen well none of 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:33.880 us can think back to nineteen eighteen. But we can 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.480 look at that pandemic, which was the worst natural disaster 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.600 in our history, and that flu pandemic came through and 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.760 it killed about one percent of the useualm population in 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.240 just six weeks, So that was about nine thousand people died, 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.840 and so we know that that level of impact is 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.360 totally unacceptable. So if we had a pandemic that was 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.800 coming at us that we thought might be as severe 0:03:57.840 --> 0:03:59.960 as that, I think everyone would want us to share 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.480 our borders until we knew what we were dealing with 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.560 and can work out how to manage it. So I 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.920 think that's a huge lesson we have learned, and I 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.080 think it's now going to be built into I think 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:10.200 our pandemic planning. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.880 The one PM press conferences, they were such a key 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.919 part of daily life for close to two years for 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.080 the majority of the country. It was the only way 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.680 of knowing how many cases there were on any given day. 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.520 Now most of us wouldn't have a clue how many 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:28.600 cases there were last week, or deaths or hospitalizations or 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:33.640 anything like that. So where are things at currently with COVID? Michael, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:35.520 How serious is of a threat is it? 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.720 Well, we've recently looked at the last five years and 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.800 we're COVID as now and it's still our most important 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.960 single infectures to these I mean, last year it put 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.240 nine thousand people in hospital, it killed around six hundred 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.560 and sixty people, and also it caused a large number 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.240 of cases long COVID. We think somewhere around six to 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.520 seven percent of the population and now living with longe COVID, 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.159 which has a huge economic cost, perhaps around two billion 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.960 dollars a year. So it's certainly a major health problem. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:08.880 But of course people don't want to think about it. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.960 They want to imagine they've moved on from COVID, and 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.160 many ways we have. We don't need an emergency response, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.880 of course to COVID nineteen, but we still need to 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:19.440 prevent it and manage it. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.680 Over the past few weeks, the world has changed, and 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.719 it has changed very quickly. In February, it would have 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:35.039 seemed unimaginable to close New Zealand's borders to the world, 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.680 and now it has been an obvious step as we 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:43.480 fight COVID nineteen. This is because we are experiencing an 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:49.159 unprecedented event, a global pandemic that in New Zealand we 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.080 have moved to fight by going hard and going early. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.960 Five years on social distancing. My q QR codes everywhere 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.040 you go, vaccine mandates, rushing to buy toilet paper, and 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.720 hunting for teddy bears all feels. 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:08.560 Just like relics. 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:10.200 That's right. 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.880 Yeah, If people have adopted any lessons from that time 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.120 in lockdown, what would you hope those were? 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.040 Well, one of the big lessons is around how viruses 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:25.360 get transmitted, and prior to COVID, I think the conventional 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.600 wisdom was they were transmitted in droplets which have a 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.840 range of up to about two meters, or from touching 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.280 surfaces contaminating them. That's called fomite transmission. And the thing 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.880 we learned from COVID nineteen is something we should have 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.320 known for a long time, is that actually aerosols are 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:47.839 really important. These these very fine droplet nuclei that we 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.880 breathe out and cough out, and they can linger in 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.080 the air for long periods, and they can also waft 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.080 over great distances. And one of the benefits of the 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.839 really good science that we had during this period was 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.240 it just identified the fact that this was really important. 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:11.120 So this means designing our indoor environments differently improving ventilation, 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.840 thinking more about controlling infictions and hospitals and wearing masks 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.360 and situations where the ventilation is very poor, like public transport. 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.280 So I think it's one of the main lessons at 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.240 the medical or epidemiological level. I think another one, of course, 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.480 is just how effective vaccines can be. I mean, they 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.880 really did transform the environment once we could vaccinate, and 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.880 unfortunately we were able to vaccinate at a high level before 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.680 we got infected with this virus, and that gave us 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.720 extremely low mortality from this infection compared with most countries. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.679 The first part of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.360 COVID came out last December, and I'll read out one 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.240 quote from it to you. Contentious public health measures like 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.280 vaccine mandates wore away at what had initially been a 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:00.000 united wall of public support for the pandemic response. 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:01.520 Would you agree with that. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:07.320 I think that there was some overuse of mandates, and 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.280 I think they were well intentioned. One of the effects 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.120 of putting pressure on people we'd some people would say 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.960 nudging them to get vaccinated, but in fact it was 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.320 stronger than a nudge, was that we did achieve very 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:20.760 high vaccine coverage, but I think we did pay a 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.800 price in terms of cohesion and trust in what we 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.520 were doing, and I think I hope that we would 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.120 do things differently next time, if there was a next time, 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:31.040 which is very likely. 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.640 When did you first notice the mood starting to turn? 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.480 Because we were so united there for probably the first 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.120 year of this and then things really started to shift. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.000 Hey, yes, So I think midway through year two there 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.840 were a whole lot of pressures building up. I mean, 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.679 there were pressures around obviously vaccination, but I think one 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.320 of the other pressures was just New Zealanders wanted to 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.679 return to New Zealand more easily, and we realized that 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.960 the quarantine system was absolutely capacity. It couldn't take any 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.760 more people. So that created rationing and I think quite 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.160 a bit of ill will towards the response. So that's 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.600 the problem. And I think one of the great difficulties 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:13.960 with elimination is exiting for this strategy, because it is 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.880 quite binary. You know, you've got no transmission or you've 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.720 got ongoing transmission. You know, there isn't really a middle ground, 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:23.840 and I think that was a difficulty and you could 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.000 see by the end of year two we had reached 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.280 a really critical point and obviously it progressed to the 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.800 parliamentary occupation and very visible protests. So that was the 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.199 very difficult time for the government working on this exit strategy. 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.800 Now, just from doing this episode and speaking with you, Michael, 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.360 I know that I'm going to receive emails about this. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.319 People are still angry about COVID. There are it's misinformation 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:06.160 disinformation online. Still how much do you get even five 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:07.800 years on now, Well it. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.200 Has decreased a lot, But basically every time I write 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.600 something or are on COVID or talk to the media 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:20.960 or talk about vaccination, I will get very unpleasant emails. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.560 And there are still people. Most of the people I meet, 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:27.120 you know, out socially are very positive about New Zealm response, 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.880 and I think, thank me and others who contributed to that. 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.280 But then you occasionally meet someone who is mainly about 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:38.280 vaccination who is very verbally abusive and unpleasant. You know. 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.520 I've had a few encounters where I felt physically threatened, 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:46.200 but I haven't been assaulted, And I think that overall 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.600 the level of risk is actually much higher for other 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.760 groups who have to interact with the public during this period. 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:56.079 I think journalists I know did get assaulted, politicians got assaulted, 0:10:56.200 --> 0:11:01.040 and I think frontline staffs, police and people were emergency departments. 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.400 So I think it has been very negative, some of 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:08.040 the disinformation and attacks. But I've got quite used to 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.000 them now, and I know in many ways it's not 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.679 really personal. It's just that people are getting so bombarded 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:18.359 with so much disinformation now, I think they are quite confused. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.400 I think people in your position probably hoped that the 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.440 pandemic would have united US and prepared us for the 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.640 next one. But instead we've got the likes of the 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.800 USA and other countries pulling out of the World Health Organization. 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.400 We've got that dis and misinformation being baked into public policy. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.480 A lot of young people seem to be quite affected 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:37.440 by the pandemic, interfering with their. 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:38.440 Childhoods as well. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.439 If Christopher Luxen got a call next month telling them that, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.679 you know, bird flu cases is skyrocketing and we need 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.959 to go into a lockdown again, you'd have to agree 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.120 that the public sentiment and support that was present five 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.240 years ago simply isn't there anymore. 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.360 Well, I think it's decreased. The surveys that we have 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.640 done and also read about show that there's still a 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:03.480 high level of trust, and scientists and health professionals also 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:08.719 that most people supported the museum response. That's the elimination strategy. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.880 So if we get it right, if there are future 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.000 pandemics of this scale or larger, there should be much 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:20.440 more reliance on rapid productive measures like closing borders and 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.439 switching to quarantine. And the good thing, or one of 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.320 the good things about those measures is they mean that 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.320 life in museum would carry on more or less as 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:32.120 it did during the good phases of the pandemic response. 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.240 That is that you could still have people attending mass 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.400 sporting events and going about their lives. And after all, 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.760 domestic tourism is always a larger contribution to our economy 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:46.280 than overseas tourism, so we can actually get by quite 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.920 well if we have to do that that response. Now, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.400 I think lockdowns are a different measure. They do require 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.319 a lot of public support to work, and many of 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.320 us would say we need to actually use other approaches 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.360 much more. And one of the most effective ways is 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.280 it still requires public engagement, is mask use. And the 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.520 evidence and I've been involved in some very large international 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.920 reviews that show masks are highly effective. They can stop 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.520 any virus, and while you're waiting for a vaccine that 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:20.320 for fluid might take six months before it arrives. Masks 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.199 are very effective if we get local outbreaks, for instance, 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.839 if our border controls don't work. So I'm optimistic. We've 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.240 got a lot of good tools and really lockdowns should 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.640 be a last resort, but certainly if you had a 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.640 very severe outbreak that was spreading across the country, you'd 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:38.079 need to look at something like that. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.880 A few thousand anti lockdown protesters have gathered in the 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.280 Auckland domain for the third time since the Delta outbreak began. 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.400 It's been called Freedom Day and is being led by 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.800 Destiny Church leader Brian Tomicki. The card have also marched 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.680 through a new market and farmers have also joined. They've 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.679 set up some vegetable stands in front of tractors with 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:06.040 some signs reading no farms, no food. Although organizers have 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.320 encouraged it, little masks are being worn, nor is social 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.800 distancing being observed, and there is a strong police presence. 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:20.440 What's the likelihood of us seeing another COVID level pandemic 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:21.400 in our lifetimes? 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.920 Well, there have been several modeling efforts that have looked 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:29.560 at this level of risk understandably, and the risk is rising. 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.160 And currently the estimate is around twenty percent of seeing 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:37.080 another COVID magnitude pandemic within the next ten years, so 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.360 it's maybe around two to three percent a year. That's 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.720 the risk. And it's like earthquakes. You can look at 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.200 the overall level of risk, but it doesn't tell you 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.440 exactly when and where it will happen. I mean, if 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.600 it did, that would be fantastic, but modeling can't do that. 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:55.480 It can just look at an average level of risk, 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.120 and that risk is rising, and it's for a number 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.440 of reasons. Partly just that a massive humanity our contact 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.760 with animal reservoirs that might be the source of the 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.320 next pandemic agent. But actually my biggest worry now is 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.640 for engineered pathogens. And we have a growing list of 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.240 laboratories it's now approaching a thousand across the globe that 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.040 are called a level four lab and they have the 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.320 ability to work on very dangerous pathogens, and of course 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.080 a lot of them as farther know, all of them 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.800 are doing this for the right reasons, to plan better 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.440 defenses for pathogens, better anti virals, and so on. But 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:37.520 we have the technology to edit genomes now and alter pathogens. 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.240 And the worry is that this can happen if people 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:45.080 are radicalized or have personality disorders, and there are still 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.720 bad actors who may be doing things that are not 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.800 known these at a state level. So I think that 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.080 is an increasing concern for the future that I think 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.800 raises the risk level several degrees. 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:01.000 And I mentioned before about bird flu or the H 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.160 five and one virus. Now that's been spreading over the 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.680 last year globally, but notably in the US. So, Michael, 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.040 how can we go about making people pay attention again 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.280 and prepare or even be interested in another pandemic threat. 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.680 One of the best things we can do now is 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:21.480 to actually get people used to using basic measures with 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.520 the winter peak of respiratory and fictions we get every year, 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.440 particularly influenza, which is still Before COVID nineteen it was 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.120 our number one infectures disease killer and it's still a 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:38.560 very significant virus. So, for example, we could introduce measures 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:42.640 such as encouraging people to wear masks on public transport 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.120 when we're in the middle of the flu season every 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.120 year as a protective measure that would get us used 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.480 to the fact that that masks are actually quite comfortable 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.280 once you're used to using them. And these are the 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:58.720 N ninety five masks that actually filter out small particles. 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.280 It's not the the basic surgical masks. So that's one 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.400 thing we can do. We need to get much better 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.840 at infection control in our healthcare system. There's some evidence 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.240 that about fifteen percent of COVID deaths in Australia, for instance, 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.960 came from transmission and hospitals, and we have many reports 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.240 in New Zealand, but we're not even counting these cases here. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.640 This is people who are very vulnerable, they earned hospital 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.879 for some reason, and then someone else gives them COVID 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.560 in that environment, and we really should be stopping this. 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:33.480 So these are practical ways of getting better at infection control. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.679 The other area, of course, is vaccination. We obviously have 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.639 We're not hearing much about COVID vaccine, but it's still 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.760 very good at protecting us from serious illness. And also 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:46.919 one of its big benefits is reducing the risk of 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.480 long COVID and that's why I think we should lower 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.200 the age of eligibility for boosters down to eighteen, because 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.760 currently it's at thirty and that's different from other countries 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:58.919 like Australia, so that all these things we can be 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.919 doing now. I think we just need to have this 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:07.679 public communication about these respiratory infections and the fact that 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:09.359 we don't have to put up with them. There are 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.359 things we can do and all of that better understanding 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.560 would mean we're much better able to respond to future 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:20.359 pandemics that will probably be other respiratory infections. And at 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:24.119 the moment we're not really seeing this conversation happening. But 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.679 if you look at Asian countries which went through the 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.879 original SARS and then now COVID, they are a mass 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.720 wearing societies and public transport and so on, and of 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.119 course it's one of the things you really see is 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.480 quite striking when you go to those countries, and it 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:44.560 meant that places like Japan South Korea avoided largely avoided 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.639 lockdowns and they did have border management, but not the 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.120 intensity of New Zealand, so that seemed to have been 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.040 one of the big benefits for those societies. But one 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.280 of the other areas that I think is so important 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.240 is to have a strong voice for public health in 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:04.720 New Zealand, just to keep reminding us that we can 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.760 make our populations healthier and safer and give people longer 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:13.240 lives without suffering from some of these avoidable threats. And 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.320 I'm quite concerned at the moment that we're seeing this 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.880 as some effor it's to muzzle the voice of public 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.920 health in New Zealand. I think this is sending a 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.399 chilling effect through the system. So some of the voices 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.320 in New Zealand I can no longer speak out on 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.919 public health concerns, particularly the local medical officers of health, 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.720 and I think it's a missed opportunity because the best 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.520 way to really get people prepared for these future threats 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:40.439 is to keep them in the public eye, and so 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:45.760 I think it's a negative step to actually reduce the 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.800 public discussion about public health concerns. So I hope that's 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.879 something we can learn from our experience with the pandemic 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.000 and the period since that we need to have. We 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.560 need to encourage these voices in these conversations. 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.400 Thanks for joining us, Michael. 0:19:58.359 --> 0:19:59.280 Great to talk. Thank you. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.639 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.480 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.560 at enzdherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.320 produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:19.560 a sound engineer. 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:21.560 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.280 Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:29.120 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:30.440 behind the headlines.