Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
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Speaker 1: Straight down the Middle Sky Try get inside the game
Speaker 1: from every end goal. It's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith
Speaker 1: and Leo LaPier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Rugby Direct powered by Folklifb Solutions, lifting you
Speaker 2: and your business to a higher level. That afternoon on
Speaker 2: a Wednesday in Capetown and naps. We've been here for
Speaker 2: a couple of days in South Afburica. Good to be
Speaker 2: here and settling in very very well. The jet lags
Speaker 2: being a bit of a punish but other than that,
Speaker 2: enjoying being here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it always takes a few days, doesn't it, Elliott,
Speaker 3: when you're trove halfway around the world. But great to
Speaker 3: be back in South Africa and particularly in Cape Town.
Speaker 3: Really really love the city. We had a big day yesterday,
Speaker 3: didn't we all blacks on a media day off after
Speaker 3: we arrived, So it took you up Lion's Head was
Speaker 3: quite the climb. Beautiful day, amazing views, so nice to
Speaker 3: should we say, knock the bastard off one of them?
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I declared just before the top I thought
Speaker 2: I had enough runs on the board and left you
Speaker 2: boys to it to do the final ascent. You know,
Speaker 2: some of us are Edmund Hillary's intending Norgays, and some
Speaker 2: of us are not meant to be so. But it
Speaker 2: was a great day. Feeling it today, but it was
Speaker 2: good to get out and experience a little bit of
Speaker 2: Cape Town and in stretch the leagues. All Blacks team
Speaker 2: is out for their first tour game against the Stormers.
Speaker 2: I guess it's a mix of players that haven't had
Speaker 2: many opportunities, not only this year, but you know, prior
Speaker 2: to this year, we've seen you players like Blackadder onto
Speaker 2: the bench. Here it's in Simon Parker. He's in the
Speaker 2: mix this year. Boden Barrett was well telegraphed that he
Speaker 2: would be at ten. So I and large win's that
Speaker 2: predictable team, but kind of a experimental team, which is
Speaker 2: what we're expecting.
Speaker 3: There's no shock and or as the elliott I think, yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's necessarily. Everyone couldn't predict this team,
Speaker 3: but it was always going to be a second string outfit.
Speaker 3: I think if you cast the heads to next Tuesday
Speaker 3: local time, the second game against the Sharks that looms
Speaker 3: as the likely shadow test team ten days out from
Speaker 3: the opening test. So in that context, there were always
Speaker 3: going to be a couple of rookies coming into the mix,
Speaker 3: and we see that with Lowaki the Hurricanes prop and
Speaker 3: Josh Jacob and then, like you say, those guys who
Speaker 3: haven't featured, Kyle Preston another Rikalwhany coming back onto the
Speaker 3: left wing. So a number of players getting opportunities. Boden
Speaker 3: Barrett will be a bit of a focal figure, won't
Speaker 3: At ten Patrick two below two captains the team for
Speaker 3: the for the second time in a really strong second
Speaker 3: row pair with Fabian Holland playing his first appearance after
Speaker 3: our shoulder surgery. Has only had one hit out, So
Speaker 3: on the whole, I think it's a strong all Black team.
Speaker 3: It's a new all Black team. There'll be a lot
Speaker 3: of untested combinations, so they may be a bit rusty,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of points to prove, I think
Speaker 3: across the board as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And it was interesting
Speaker 2: to hear Simon Parker speak to the media before we
Speaker 2: arrived and sort of talk about not playing this year
Speaker 2: and saying, well, it's not a charity, so I can't
Speaker 2: expect it to play, and he was going to turn
Speaker 2: up and do your beast when you do get those opportunities,
Speaker 2: if you are someone like him, who do you think
Speaker 2: has the most to gain? Perhaps out of the run
Speaker 2: on team, he'll begin in the most minutes with an
Speaker 2: eye head to the bigger matches, the test matches of
Speaker 2: this tour.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Faban Holland's coming back into the mix.
Speaker 3: He needs game time, doesn't he after a long time out,
Speaker 3: So he's one guy that can definitely push into that
Speaker 3: test team. Massive human will break through player of the
Speaker 3: Year a couple of years back. Was played eighty minutes
Speaker 3: a lot for the All Blacks last year. And then
Speaker 3: the loose forwards I think are still contestable in some areas.
Speaker 3: Ad Severe and Luke Jacobson are pretty well locked in
Speaker 3: there and tuper Vira will probably play six. But if
Speaker 3: that does happen, then he could have two loose forwards
Speaker 3: on the bench, So big chance for Wallace Atituo, who
Speaker 3: was pretty underwhelming in his last starts at blindside against Italy,
Speaker 3: left out of the team. The following week, Dave Rennie
Speaker 3: was very open about the fact that he was dropped
Speaker 3: on form, so he comes back in to start at
Speaker 3: number eight, probably his preferred position with already not there.
Speaker 3: And then Peter Luckey, who I thought was excellent in
Speaker 3: the opening Test against France, in a surprise, we didn't
Speaker 3: see more of them. He only came off the bench
Speaker 3: late against Ireland. So when you throw into on signa
Speaker 3: in the mix who's not in this game, I think
Speaker 3: those three guys are really contesting possibly two spots on
Speaker 3: the bench, so they have lots again. And then and
Speaker 3: then a Josh Molby, who you spoke to today, gets
Speaker 3: start at fallback. And he's been a big mover, isn't he?
Speaker 2: He has been and we'll hear that interview a bit
Speaker 2: later on in the podcast. He has been a big mover.
Speaker 2: And I guess we've seen him come off the bench once,
Speaker 2: we've seen him play on the left wing once, and
Speaker 2: now we're going to see him at fullback. And while
Speaker 2: you know Damie McKenzie clearly at this point is the
Speaker 2: first choice fallback for the All Blacks, there are a
Speaker 2: number of people putting the squeeze on a wing and
Speaker 2: you just don't know whether maybe that is an option
Speaker 2: potentially down the track. You know. Will Jordan's had time
Speaker 2: at fifteen of course as well, but it does add
Speaker 2: another option to the All Blacks if that works well.
Speaker 2: He's got a good kicking game. Josh Molby playing at
Speaker 2: an international level, not this is a test, but this,
Speaker 2: you know, it's a little bit different around the requirements
Speaker 2: because they've seen him do it at super rugby level.
Speaker 2: But I think he's a player that is just making
Speaker 2: every post to winners, so intrigued to see what he
Speaker 2: can do. Look at the locks as well and go.
Speaker 2: It's going to be interesting to see what combination they
Speaker 2: land on for the first Test match, because I think
Speaker 2: there are a number of quality locks in the mix
Speaker 2: of the All Blacks at the moment. Fabian holand coming
Speaker 2: back from that shoulder injury. Of course we'll get some
Speaker 2: game time. I'd expect a heavy amount of game time
Speaker 2: over the next three tour games. Whether that's enough to
Speaker 2: put them in the Test side, I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 2: Patrick Typerlaw too is very good at Eaton Park, San
Speaker 2: Dowi's had a good couple of opening Test matches as well,
Speaker 2: So Josh Lord is yeah, very good and it is
Speaker 2: making you know, for a player that's been on the
Speaker 2: periphery for a number of years now is right in
Speaker 2: that conversation now to be a starting lock. So with
Speaker 2: Tupo playing on the blind side, there are any number
Speaker 2: of combinations. I guess it's around also scrummaging and Lucy
Speaker 2: tight heads sort of scenario. But you know, I think
Speaker 2: there are a few things that Dave rene be keeping
Speaker 2: on in the second road department when when they see
Speaker 2: farbing hold and three to scrumming together and packing down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Fabian's the wild card, isn't he Because on the
Speaker 3: basis of what we saw Eden Park against Iron, you'd
Speaker 3: say Paddy t and Josh Lord will start again. Be
Speaker 3: pretty hard to drop them on the basis of that performance.
Speaker 3: I think you're right that Fabian will get a lot
Speaker 3: of game time and maybe doesn't feature in the first test,
Speaker 3: but we'll firmly come into the reckoning beyond that, particularly
Speaker 3: just with Tupo probably playing six and you're just having
Speaker 3: two locks and and you're looking at too loose forwards
Speaker 3: if they do indeed go that way. But look, this
Speaker 3: is a this is a four test series as well,
Speaker 3: and there will be casualties. Dave Reddie's not going to
Speaker 3: be able to play the same team throughout. It's going
Speaker 3: to take a huge physical mental toll, and Russy is
Speaker 3: certainly going to rotate, and I think the All Blacks
Speaker 3: will have to as well. So while the large basis
Speaker 3: of that first Test team I think is pretty well
Speaker 3: locked in, I think we will see changes throughout that series,
Speaker 3: and these performances in these midweek games will firmly put
Speaker 3: players in the frame for the First Test and beyond.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very rare that you would see players play
Speaker 2: four test weeks in a row ever, outside of maybe
Speaker 2: a Rugby World Cup and you know, quarterfinal, semi finals, final,
Speaker 2: let alone against the world as their back exactly right.
Speaker 2: So I think you know, obviously end of U two,
Speaker 2: you play four matches in a row and those can
Speaker 2: be tricky as well. But and that's probably the only
Speaker 2: time really but playing the same opponent, I think you
Speaker 2: do need to vary it up and do need to
Speaker 2: bring something there so you know, while you know players
Speaker 2: will we experience in quick turnarounds and playing you know,
Speaker 2: four tests in a right at the end of the year,
Speaker 2: I think this is a different beast in terms of
Speaker 2: playing the spring box, so it maybe that they go
Speaker 2: and change things around entirely with the Night to Bolton
Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. I think it's going to
Speaker 2: depend on the fabric of the series and the way
Speaker 2: it unfolds as well. Just as to what selections come
Speaker 2: into play No. Finanger or four for this game, our
Speaker 2: understanding is that he's unavaiable. Selection should be right for
Speaker 2: future games in the series, so he will get some
Speaker 2: game time. So Caleb Clark on the bench and look
Speaker 2: for Caleb Clark as well. I think it's an interesting
Speaker 2: position for him to be in because we saw him
Speaker 2: come off the bench against Ireland and Eden Park and
Speaker 2: perform pretty well in that role, probably slid behind Josh
Speaker 2: More we now, you'd have to say on the left
Speaker 2: wing stakes. So opportunity in terms of a bench roll
Speaker 2: fit for Caleb Clark coming off and showing what he
Speaker 2: can do inst the Stormers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's really unfortunate for Fee. He made
Speaker 3: his debut off the bench against France and christ Church
Speaker 3: only five ten minutes into his shoulder and then has
Speaker 3: fallen all the past couple of days since arriving in
Speaker 3: South Africa. So as you say, not in contention this week,
Speaker 3: so we haven't really seen him, have we in the
Speaker 3: Black Jersey, and this would have been an opportunity to assess,
Speaker 3: you know, can he make that step up to test rugby,
Speaker 3: particularly given his uncertainty around his future. So he doesn't
Speaker 3: get that chance. He's gonna have to wait. And Caleb Clark, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think he when he has performed that bench role,
Speaker 3: he's done it really well and it is a bit
Speaker 3: of a luxury in some regards to carry a winger.
Speaker 3: But I think when he came on against Island, and
Speaker 3: I even remember the last time the All Blacks to
Speaker 3: in South Africa, he was coming off the bench and
Speaker 3: added some impact there. I'm thinking run. So he certainly
Speaker 3: did it at the MCG against the Wallabies on one occasion,
Speaker 3: so it's not foreign to him. But he will want
Speaker 3: some more game time. And yeah, in terms of the
Speaker 3: composition of that back three, Dave really has largely favored
Speaker 3: those fallbacks essentially, right.
Speaker 2: What's going back to twenty eleven sort of vibes, isn't it?
Speaker 3: And you'd have to say, on a small sample size,
Speaker 3: your Blacks have made improvements under the high ball, but
Speaker 3: they are this is where the rubber meets the road
Speaker 3: because the box Are and the Stormers and the Bulls
Speaker 3: and Sharks are going to test them in the area
Speaker 3: that's part of the South African DNA, and so Josh
Speaker 3: will be going back to fullback. He's going to be
Speaker 3: peppered there. Same with Riquewani under the high ball. Watts's
Speaker 3: capacity after others have improved. So there's gonna be a
Speaker 3: real spotlight I think on the back three throughout this
Speaker 3: tour and how they handle that. Damian McKenzie is a
Speaker 3: small fallback. Did well in July, but this is a
Speaker 3: bit of a different beast. So we have seen improvement.
Speaker 3: But that needs to continue, doesn't it?
Speaker 2: It does, It absolutely does, and I'm intrigued to see
Speaker 2: how this game goes, just in terms of setting the
Speaker 2: tone for the overall series from the All Blacks, you know,
Speaker 2: this has been a tour long in the making, and
Speaker 2: I guess you look at it and go, what's the
Speaker 2: what's the par level or the you know, the expectations
Speaker 2: for this tour. You know, what do we learn from
Speaker 2: these tour games? I guess this is another question, So
Speaker 2: what are your expectations? I guess in the overall tour
Speaker 2: from where we are sitting here on you know, two
Speaker 2: days out from the first game, to where we might
Speaker 2: end up in Baltimore in a few weeks time.
Speaker 3: I think the starting point is this is the All
Speaker 3: Blacks and the expectation the bar has to be set high.
Speaker 3: I think there's a reality to the fact that Dave
Speaker 3: Renie said this team a matter of five weeks ye,
Speaker 3: and there's clearly been improvement. I think they're in a
Speaker 3: vastly better place already than they were at the back
Speaker 3: end of last year if they were coming into this
Speaker 3: tour with that same management, with that same cloud hanging
Speaker 3: over that team, the same internal ructions that could have
Speaker 3: really imploded on this tour. So so I'm a lot
Speaker 3: more optimistic. But that word that's a buzzword, isn't it?
Speaker 3: But this is there's a reality to it. Look, the
Speaker 3: Box have phenomenal depth. They've what have they won is
Speaker 3: it four of the last five or five of the
Speaker 3: last six against the All Blacks. They've had their number.
Speaker 3: They're the world champions. I think they've won their last
Speaker 3: ten twelve games. They've swept the Southern Northern Hemisphere teams.
Speaker 3: It's an incredibly difficult place to come. I think the
Speaker 3: minimum expectation for me, Elliot is one win in South Africa,
Speaker 3: one Test win. Anything beyond that I think would be well,
Speaker 3: a great successful, a phenomenal achievement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think we're gonna be realistic. Is that,
Speaker 2: you know, only one team's ever come to South Africa
Speaker 2: and one a series. That was the nine ninety six group.
Speaker 2: And I think it's probably fair to say that had
Speaker 2: the All Blacks toured South Africa in the style you know,
Speaker 2: at some point between two thousand and ten and twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: they would have won probably another series. You know that
Speaker 2: they had some big wins here in South Africa, you
Speaker 2: would have backed them to win a series proper like
Speaker 2: they did in ninety ninety six, but the opportunity wasn't
Speaker 2: afforded to them. Now, you know, South Africa of the
Speaker 2: dominant force in world rugby, and you've got to go
Speaker 2: and go. Okay, well, history tells us that this is
Speaker 2: just a hard place to play, whether you're in form
Speaker 2: you're not in form, and when you're playing the world
Speaker 2: champions and a team that is, you know, as I said,
Speaker 2: the dominant force in world rugby, you've got to set
Speaker 2: your expectations realistically while also having very high standards. So look,
Speaker 2: I think in terms of without just let's discard Baltimore
Speaker 2: for a moment, but I think I'm with you that
Speaker 2: winning one of these three games, I wouldn't deem it
Speaker 2: necessarily as success, but I think that has to be
Speaker 2: the minimum for the All Blacks to go. Okay, there's
Speaker 2: a step forward there, and then you can view Baltimore
Speaker 2: its own, you know, because it's not in South Africa.
Speaker 2: So I was probably were about size it on the matter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it's this is a relentless toil. You put
Speaker 3: the midweek games aside, which you can debate the well
Speaker 3: no more won't we in the context of these games,
Speaker 3: how much you can take out of them, But you
Speaker 3: set them aside the fact that you're playing three back
Speaker 3: to back tests in South Africa against the spring Box
Speaker 3: the first time in thirty years. It's can to be
Speaker 3: relentless and it will take a huge mental physical toll
Speaker 3: and the All Blacks are going to have to get
Speaker 3: a lot right they yeah, discipline, their scrum, more, high ball.
Speaker 3: All these vulnerabilities that we've seen at times are going
Speaker 3: to be pressed to the max and there's no place
Speaker 3: and we'll rugby quite like South Africa, certainly from a
Speaker 3: Alis Park point of view, where you feel quite as
Speaker 3: much a foreigner, where you're the hostility. It's just a
Speaker 3: magic place. So look, I think there's there's reason to
Speaker 3: be optimistic. There's reason to believe that the All Blacks
Speaker 3: can certainly win one test. They've really he's got a
Speaker 3: great record against South African teams. I can't remember off
Speaker 3: the top of my head, but when he was at
Speaker 3: the Chiefs, I think he is at three or four
Speaker 3: when he was with the Wallabies and that was when
Speaker 3: they were world champions and Russy was I think director
Speaker 3: of rugby at the time, Jacques Nebinad was coach. But
Speaker 3: he knows the South African style well, he knows how
Speaker 3: to counter that and I think the All Blacks will
Speaker 3: learn a lot in these tour games as well leading
Speaker 3: into that. So one one win and then you're on
Speaker 3: the board. Look, depending on when that arrives, if they
Speaker 3: were to win a series in South Africa, well, look
Speaker 3: if they won two games in South Africa, I think
Speaker 3: that would probably eclipse the what the ninety sixteen did.
Speaker 3: Just given the dominance, as you say of this current
Speaker 3: Springbok team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when both All World champions at the time, weren't
Speaker 2: they and the All Blacks had lost the final the
Speaker 2: year prior in South Africa. As there's a different backdrop
Speaker 2: to that series as well, you know, professionalism, and it's
Speaker 2: very very early stages, so hard to compare the two eras,
Speaker 2: but I think it would be a major achievement and
Speaker 2: we'll find out over the coming weeks how they get
Speaker 2: on and the names that will have no doubt a
Speaker 2: big influence on that are the referees appointed for the series.
Speaker 2: Four referees controlling the eight games, so each of the
Speaker 2: referee gets Each of the referees get a tour match
Speaker 2: as well as a test match. Matthew Carley gets the
Speaker 2: first one from England, Angus Gardner the second here in
Speaker 2: Cape Town, the third matches Nico Amisha Kelly of Georgia
Speaker 2: and the fourth match and final game is Carl Dixon
Speaker 2: of England, who also opens a series against the Stormers
Speaker 2: on Friday nights. So I guess your reaction to those
Speaker 2: names do they affix the way the All Blacks will
Speaker 2: play or the way the series will be played? You know?
Speaker 2: As as we look ahead to this thing.
Speaker 3: I think any official does right without no matter who
Speaker 3: they are, they will have an impact, positive or negative.
Speaker 3: I do like the distinction you made there about the
Speaker 3: All Blacks. Will get some experience with these guys in
Speaker 3: a tour match. That's important. You'll get up to speed
Speaker 3: with their nuancewers. In terms of the appointments are just
Speaker 3: broadly speaking, I would have liked to see it too,
Speaker 3: and two split Southern Northern Hemisphere and I think look,
Speaker 3: nick Berry was always up against it given the historical
Speaker 3: context and the vilifying basically of him in terms of
Speaker 3: him coming to South Africa again, but maybe he could
Speaker 3: have done Baltimore. I think he's hard done by. And
Speaker 3: Luke Pess I think should have been in the mix.
Speaker 3: I don't particularly rate Carl Dixon. I think he can
Speaker 3: lose control of the Test very easily. And Amicelley I'm
Speaker 3: not a huge fan of either. I think he's quite pedantic,
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily have a great feel for the game, but
Speaker 3: that's that's just my view. So look, they are the appointments.
Speaker 3: You've got to get on with it, and there's no
Speaker 3: points making a mile out of a mole hole. These
Speaker 3: guys that are going to be in the middle and
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to adjust.
Speaker 2: Ye. Yeah, I would almost like to see the same
Speaker 2: referee appointed for each of the four games.
Speaker 3: And what if what if that was Michelley or Dixon, Well, at.
Speaker 2: Least you would know what you're walking into. The The
Speaker 2: problem with will Rugby and the referee at the moment
Speaker 2: is that we have you know, take these four refreez
Speaker 2: for example. All four have got different opinions on how
Speaker 2: the game should be refereed within the broader rules of
Speaker 2: the game. And I think if you have whether it's
Speaker 2: an Angus Gardener or whether it's Amisia Kelly, or whether
Speaker 2: it's Luke Petz, whoever it might be, at least you
Speaker 2: go they've got the nuances. But over a four two
Speaker 2: series we can adapt to that, we can use it,
Speaker 2: and you know, I think that is almost a better
Speaker 2: way of doing things, is that you're just gonna have
Speaker 2: one consistent referee, same linesmen, the same rs for that
Speaker 2: same TMO, and then they get used to working together.
Speaker 2: Now I know there's going to be a lot of
Speaker 2: working together with these referees because some are going to
Speaker 2: move to assistant referees and some are going to have
Speaker 2: the head referee for a certain game and rotate around,
Speaker 2: but almost go be better off just pointing Angus Gardener
Speaker 2: for four matches and in going he's our ref and
Speaker 2: you can see the flip side to that to my
Speaker 2: point of view, and go, it's better to have the variety,
Speaker 2: better to have different voices every week. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: just don't know whether you know, maybe for something like
Speaker 2: this you better often just having the same person in
Speaker 2: the middle week in week out, you know, for referees,
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's a special experiencing part of test matches
Speaker 2: and test series like this, so you know, get on
Speaker 2: them forgetting the appointments. But yeah, I mean, I think
Speaker 2: overall with World Rugby at the moment that the law
Speaker 2: book is so bad that they've got to a place
Speaker 2: where there's very there are very few referees that have
Speaker 2: the feel and nuance to referee a game of rugby
Speaker 2: in the modern test stage, with the way that coaches
Speaker 2: and players now expect the game to be officiated. It's very,
Speaker 2: very hard. But I just don't think that the depth
Speaker 2: of zeron World Rugby, So I'd go with one one
Speaker 2: referee for the entire series. So something to ponder for
Speaker 2: the future for world rugby. Types had news as well
Speaker 2: when you landed a captain. You wrote this on inzid
Speaker 2: Herald that Georgel his tour is over before it begins
Speaker 2: and Bradley Slater called in as replacement for the tour.
Speaker 2: So a big blow for George Bell who had been
Speaker 2: out with a calf injury for the back end of
Speaker 2: Super Rugby and just has seemingly tweaked it again at
Speaker 2: training and sounds like his tour is done and done.
Speaker 3: Donald done, Donald done.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Unfortunate, isn't it for George Bell because he's had a
Speaker 3: well hookers and calfs or props and cuffs go together
Speaker 3: like hand in glove. Unfortunately. I guess it's the nature
Speaker 3: of putting such weight exerted through scrums and whatnot. But yeah,
Speaker 3: really unfortunate for George. I thought he was really good
Speaker 3: at times for the Crusaders this season. Bradley Slater probably
Speaker 3: a surprise call up. I think it's fair to say
Speaker 3: Brody McAllister was in that slot when I suffer Armor
Speaker 3: was injured last year. Didn't really know was had some
Speaker 3: really ropey performances with his line out throwing. I don't
Speaker 3: know if that was on him alone, but that was
Speaker 3: certainly very evident in his two appearances off the bench
Speaker 3: last year, and so with a change of management and
Speaker 3: new Barnes coming in, he knows Bradley stayed a well
Speaker 3: from Tartanuki. Longer term, I think someone like eli Odin
Speaker 3: Ryan is really the future Jack Taylor at the Highlanders
Speaker 3: as well. But yeah, look, it'd be an amazing call,
Speaker 3: wouldn't it to get a Bradley winnige in South Africa.
Speaker 3: It's a once in a laft on opportunity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, absolutely Look, I thought the Blues lineout
Speaker 2: was a bit ropey at times this year. That's not
Speaker 2: all down to the hooker because you look at the
Speaker 2: two locks that are in there in Dari and Peep
Speaker 2: a lot too, and you know they're playing some great rugby.
Speaker 2: So I would have perhaps a couple of question marks
Speaker 2: just over that in general. But barring further injuries, he's
Speaker 2: probably not going to get it. Too many opportunities, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he would have. George Bell would have come off the
Speaker 2: bench this week, I'm sure at the Stormers if he
Speaker 2: were fit. So they've had to move on Muller in
Speaker 2: for that game that may change. They'll obviously give him
Speaker 2: an opportunity probably against the Lions. Whether he gets another
Speaker 2: one against the Bulls, I'm not sure. So incredible opportunity
Speaker 2: for for Bradley Slater to come over and show what
Speaker 2: he's got. And you know, I think he's twenty eight now,
Speaker 2: so maybe he thought the time he passed him by,
Speaker 2: but you know, he made that move from the Chiefs
Speaker 2: up to the Blues and it's proven to be a
Speaker 2: very very good one for him, So good on him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think if you look at these guys
Speaker 3: like that are in the you know, not well down
Speaker 3: the picking order, but they're not first choice players a
Speaker 3: Bradley Slater, Tavia Tavanawa two Po Tay Lower. There's still
Speaker 3: a real opportunity to impress on the training field or
Speaker 3: with how hard you're working, or on a tour like
Speaker 3: this when you're away for four or five weeks, you're
Speaker 3: not just being judged on performances, and that's probably what
Speaker 3: the fans don't see, right, Like, yeah, they might only
Speaker 3: get twenty minutes off the bench and one game perhaps,
Speaker 3: but when you're looking at head to a World Cup
Speaker 3: and you're plotting your dips Chart and his injuries. You
Speaker 3: can very much press your claims on a tour like
Speaker 3: this just just being involved.
Speaker 2: You certainly can. The All Blacks, obviously in Cape Town
Speaker 2: have a big relationship to the city for historical reasons.
Speaker 2: They had five thousand fans come through the Great Gates
Speaker 2: to DHL Stadium last Friday in in a fan event capacity.
Speaker 2: They get healthy support. They're doing and I think a
Speaker 2: fan signing the day before the game here in the
Speaker 2: city at one of the Mules as well, maybe an
Speaker 2: Eddy desk store or something like that. They have been
Speaker 2: historically well supported here through the years because of you know,
Speaker 2: racial in Sou Africa's background obviously in that and while
Speaker 2: it is tilted more towards the South Africans now in
Speaker 2: the spring Box, given the way that the South Africans
Speaker 2: look now and what they've been able to do on
Speaker 2: the field, you know, there is still a healthy smattering
Speaker 2: of All Blacks fans in the city that will be
Speaker 2: no thatt cheering them on on Friday night here at
Speaker 2: at DHL Stadium.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's interesting dynamic, isn't it. What do you
Speaker 3: call them the Cape Crusaders or there's a there's a generation,
Speaker 3: generational legion of fans of fandom that's been passed out
Speaker 3: down from grandparents to parents to modern day All Black
Speaker 3: fans in Cape Town because of the historical view of
Speaker 3: the Springboks being a symbol of apartheid. And like you say,
Speaker 3: that has changed dramatically given the composition of the Springbok team,
Speaker 3: given Sir Calisi's the first black captain, but that support
Speaker 3: is still prevalent here and it also is because of
Speaker 3: the style in which the All Blacks play, and that
Speaker 3: has a massive pool in terms of attracting fans just
Speaker 3: purely from attacking point of view.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I remember and the last time the
Speaker 2: All Blacks were here in twenty twenty four, it was
Speaker 2: before the game, they had this video on the big
Speaker 2: screen and it was a long time All Black supporter
Speaker 2: here in the Cape that had switched his allegiances very
Speaker 2: late in his life to support in the spring Box
Speaker 2: because now what they meant to him. And obviously there
Speaker 2: are changes happening in that regard. And they showed this
Speaker 2: guy on the big screen after doing a sort of
Speaker 2: pre prepared video. He got a round of applause and
Speaker 2: things like that. But you know, there is still plenty
Speaker 2: of All Blacks Juicys in the stands that day, as
Speaker 2: there will be Friday night, as they will be for
Speaker 2: the Second Test, so that remains very very strong. One
Speaker 2: interesting thing, though, Liam, is that the match is not
Speaker 2: going to be a sellout on Friday night as perhaps
Speaker 2: maybe we might have expected. Now, there's been some stories
Speaker 2: this year around pricing for spring Box games, and maybe
Speaker 2: they're overpriced and unable to get enough people through the gates.
Speaker 2: I know the test matches are selling very well, but
Speaker 2: maybe the tour matches, you know, perhaps have been overpriced.
Speaker 2: I'm what sure, but to expect some empty seats in
Speaker 2: the stands on Friday night.
Speaker 3: Like you say, yeah, this is not the first time
Speaker 3: I've seen it. This share with the spring Box. They
Speaker 3: struggled to sell out their game against England, which was
Speaker 3: their headline Test of July, and they had to drop
Speaker 3: the prices significantly to sell out that match at Alice Park.
Speaker 3: And yeah, in a tour like this, you run the
Speaker 3: risk of saturating a market. What the Second Test, it's
Speaker 3: what three weeks after the game against the Stormers, and
Speaker 3: the Stormers aren't at full strength, so locals who are
Speaker 3: attuned to their rugby are perhaps not willing to play
Speaker 3: full price even though it's the All Blacks. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I think the South African Roby Union have probably got
Speaker 3: their using wrong and are clearly paying for it at
Speaker 3: the moment. Remains to be seen whether they dropped their
Speaker 3: prices late, but it could well not be a full stadium,
Speaker 3: which would be disappoint wouldn't it.
Speaker 2: Yea, it would be a shame if that is indeed
Speaker 2: the case come Friday night. As the way there's looking
Speaker 2: at the moment, a couple of interesting things back home,
Speaker 2: NPC obviously underway, and news that DUP is doing the
Speaker 2: reverse fying a Nuoku as it's non and slotting into
Speaker 2: the Wellington back line for the NPC game this weekend
Speaker 2: against Auckland at Western Springs Eyebrow raising. What did you
Speaker 2: make of it?
Speaker 3: Great venue, Western Springs, home to the Pontsby Ponies.
Speaker 2: Oh, I was gonna say I went to a big
Speaker 2: day out there. I think the one year Big Dat
Speaker 2: was there in Auckland City limits a couple of times.
Speaker 2: Maybe lame lame.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great music venue but also nosy pony.
Speaker 2: Mate, So what does that mean?
Speaker 3: It's just the slogan of Ponsby Rugby. Bet you Williams
Speaker 3: to tell you that, I'm sure, yeah, look but rogue,
Speaker 3: very rogue. I think from Wellington, and to be honest,
Speaker 3: it's a bit of an indictment on the Union that
Speaker 3: they don't have another compelling second five option. I know
Speaker 3: Riley Haggins is injured and I've clearly got some challenges,
Speaker 3: but I know fine and Oku did it. I think
Speaker 3: Creas he's a very different player and the forward pack
Speaker 3: of Wellington's also going backwards, so he's going to have
Speaker 3: a hell of a task. I don't know if he
Speaker 3: can throw a long ball. I certainly wouldn't expect him
Speaker 3: to kick, so he's just going to be carting it
Speaker 3: up and defending and looking to get over the ball.
Speaker 3: I had some mates who suggested that maybe the All
Speaker 3: Blacks had suggested it. Can categorically rule that out. This
Speaker 3: has not come from on high. This is purely smacks
Speaker 3: a bit of desperation, honestly, I think from from from Wellington.
Speaker 3: But I hope it goes well for him, But I
Speaker 3: certainly don't think it will be something that will continue
Speaker 3: for the.
Speaker 2: Hurricanes or whether Jordi Barrett at twelve.
Speaker 3: Or anyone beyond that, so it might be a very
Speaker 3: short lived experiment.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I'm all for trying players in different positions
Speaker 2: and seeing how it goes, but I'm not sure that
Speaker 2: you're actually using D's skill set in the right way.
Speaker 2: You know, his strength is turnovers as his and you
Speaker 2: know you can do that at twelve. We've seen I
Speaker 2: do that and be involved there. But Wellington were poor
Speaker 2: against Talks Bay on Sunday afternoon. I think it was
Speaker 2: New Zealand time, and yeah, I think in occasions like
Speaker 2: that you need to back your specialists to deliver the
Speaker 2: following week against you know, a decent awcond team who
Speaker 2: were pitped by Canterbury. So I look, it's one of
Speaker 2: those ones. You go, I'm intrigued. I'm going to tune
Speaker 2: in and maybe I watch it live here at four
Speaker 2: am on Saturday morning or Sunday morning, whatever it might be.
Speaker 2: But I'm intrigued by the idea nonetheless and looking forward
Speaker 2: to seeing how it goes. But it just does feel
Speaker 2: a little bit weird.
Speaker 3: It's more common, though, isn't it. This whole hybrid concept
Speaker 3: We've seen South Africa with Ester Hazen fining anook who
Speaker 3: did a great job of it at super rugby level.
Speaker 3: Yet to see that tested in the test arena until
Speaker 3: he comes back.
Speaker 2: And Andy Jones was a big proponent of it when
Speaker 2: he was in England.
Speaker 3: From memory, yeah, I think we can probably get a
Speaker 3: bit carried away with it, So I think do PC
Speaker 3: as a specialist seven and wash him well and hope
Speaker 3: it works out. But I wouldn't expect it to be
Speaker 3: a long term thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, bit rogue, but you will see how that goes.
Speaker 2: Finally gone Rugby direct. As I mentioned earlier in the podcast,
Speaker 2: caught up with All Blacks outside back Josh Morby, who
Speaker 2: is slotting in at fullback for the side there's week.
Speaker 2: Let's hear that chat now, Josh, congratulations on selection for
Speaker 2: this week in first and foremost. Have you settled in
Speaker 2: to South Africa as a team and personally for you to.
Speaker 4: Yes, been It's been a good almost a week now
Speaker 4: since we've landed, and yes, as it's been quite warm
Speaker 4: their first few days. Today's actually cooled down a little bit,
Speaker 4: but that's been great. The reception of the people here
Speaker 4: has been awesome and we've just been able to get
Speaker 4: straight into our work which has been a really really.
Speaker 2: Good opportunity for you at fullback this week. How excited
Speaker 2: are you buy by that chance against the Stormers?
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, pretty exciting all right, there's a bit of
Speaker 4: space out there and to work with Bowden. Yes, it's
Speaker 4: going to be pretty cool to hopefully nosharing a few
Speaker 4: phases together and play some exciting rugby.
Speaker 2: What the things you need to change or adapt as
Speaker 2: you move to full back in a sort of international.
Speaker 4: Environment, hopefully not too much. Obviously, there's there's a bit
Speaker 4: of a difference between playing on the wing for the
Speaker 4: first my first two tests and then moving back now.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I'm just really excited to work and you know,
Speaker 4: just learn a bit more about about fullback and then
Speaker 4: obviously we help out my wingers and then my role
Speaker 4: as well if I happen to go back to the
Speaker 4: wing a.
Speaker 2: Bit more kicking potentially as well, although it was seeing
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a variation in the attack, but obviously
Speaker 2: at full back you're expected to kick a bit more. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: was seen.
Speaker 4: I mean it be good if I can get us
Speaker 4: out of travel, if we're you know, right down in
Speaker 4: our end goal. So yes, it's going to be good.
Speaker 4: It's going to be a pretty cool atmosphere and yeah,
Speaker 4: looking forward to it.
Speaker 2: What are the things that you've learned, I guess so
Speaker 2: far in your time in the All Blacks environment about
Speaker 2: about what it takes to be an international rugby player.
Speaker 4: I've just got to be so prepared and so well
Speaker 4: detailed and your prep for the week. And I mean
Speaker 4: everyone around around you is just so good at what
Speaker 4: they do, and I think that's the the beauty of it.
Speaker 4: You just have to worry about your role and getting
Speaker 4: that right and everyone else does their perfectly, so it's
Speaker 4: not so well awored machine. And it's just awesome, so
Speaker 4: awesome to be a part of how.
Speaker 2: It's special to be on a tour like this because
Speaker 2: they don't really exist anymore, and that's been well publicized.
Speaker 2: But to be in camp together for six seven weeks
Speaker 2: and you know, playing in the same country, what do
Speaker 2: you feel like that as a modern rugby plague going
Speaker 2: back to these old school.
Speaker 4: Tours, Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Before we left, we had
Speaker 4: the ninety sixteen, you know sixteen come through and to
Speaker 4: share a few stories about obviously their tour and what
Speaker 4: it was like for them then and what it could
Speaker 4: be like for us now, and yeah, we're we're extremely
Speaker 4: lucky to be in this group and to tour so Africa.
Speaker 2: It's just such a.
Speaker 4: Well, a lot of history between the two countries. And yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm just really looking forward to these seven weeks. I mean,
Speaker 4: like you say, it's not every day it comes around,
Speaker 4: so Ye're just enjoying every day. And yeah, really looking
Speaker 4: forward to to these next seven weeks.
Speaker 2: The Stormers, obviously we don't have an idea really of
Speaker 2: maybe many of their players currently. What do you expect
Speaker 2: from them? I guess in the style perspective, What are
Speaker 2: we are you working on in camp that you might
Speaker 2: expect come a Friday night.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think they're going to throw everything at us
Speaker 4: the first test or first game for this tour. And
Speaker 4: I mean I've got nothing to lose it that would
Speaker 4: just be throwing everything at us. And yeah, we're going
Speaker 4: to be prepared for everything. And yeah, just really looking
Speaker 4: forward to to playing some rugby.
Speaker 2: How have your accommodation at ten and fifteen with but
Speaker 2: Boden worked in training so far this week? And then
Speaker 2: do you feel ready to slot into that game on Friday? Run?
Speaker 4: And yeah, I feel like we've worked pretty well together. Obviously,
Speaker 4: this will be the first time we've we've linked up,
Speaker 4: and yeah, I'm just really looking forward to it. I mean,
Speaker 4: he's so so good at at what he does, so yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll just be following him around and just following his lead.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I'm actually really excited for this opportunity South Africa.
Speaker 2: This was your first time, he didn't go over when
Speaker 2: you're playing in a one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my first time here with the Super Rugby and
Speaker 4: with obviously the Challenge Cup. So yes, it's a cape
Speaker 4: town's beautiful. Yeah, really enjoying this part of the world
Speaker 4: the night.
Speaker 2: Yes, the ninety six boys but also the guys I
Speaker 2: guess in camp that played a bit of Super rugby
Speaker 2: here and have played tests before, is it. Do you
Speaker 2: get a little bit of insight from them as to
Speaker 2: help and what to expect over the coming weeks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, a few obviously, there's quite a few of
Speaker 4: the boys that have played here before and have been
Speaker 4: in the previous test where they've gone both ways, and oh,
Speaker 4: you know, just letting you know that, you know, you
Speaker 4: just got to expect everything. That's just such a such
Speaker 4: a tough place to come and play rugby. So you've
Speaker 4: just got to be very well prepared.
Speaker 2: Just a couple of fine ones. Soon you play on
Speaker 2: the left wing a little bit as well as as
Speaker 2: right and obviously fall back this week. Do you have
Speaker 2: a preference or you quite comfortable on either side of
Speaker 2: the part playing when.
Speaker 4: Ah, I'd like to sound uncomfortable. I think that's the
Speaker 4: answer that you're level. Yeah, obviously they're both differently, you know,
Speaker 4: left hand being right hand. So it's it's it's quite good.
Speaker 4: It's I guess it's adding more more strings to my
Speaker 4: bow or you know, and yeah, I'm just hopefully developing
Speaker 4: more as a player to learn both sides. And then
Speaker 4: obviously it fallback to help service I guess the wingers
Speaker 4: and what they want from their fifteen.
Speaker 2: And just finally a cool moment for your family last
Speaker 2: couple of weeks with Tory winning a middle of the
Speaker 2: Comonworth Games, I've been pretty exciting for you and the fam.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is, it's yes, extremely cool. I mean she's
Speaker 4: worked very very hard for this, and yeah, just so
Speaker 4: so proud of her and what she's been able to Accomplishyah.
Speaker 2: Plenty of interesting stuff there from Josh Morby. Didn't realize
Speaker 2: that Tory Moreby was his sister in lawso congrats to
Speaker 2: her on her Commonwealth Games success in the last couple
Speaker 2: of weeks, and good to hear from Josh Morby as well.
Speaker 2: Big occasion for him on Friday night local time Saturday
Speaker 2: morning in New Zealand. Liam very much looking forward to
Speaker 2: getting this too underway and getting some rugby on the board.
Speaker 2: Should be pretty special come Friday night.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I can't wait. Beautiful stadium on the Cape town
Speaker 3: or front. Haven't been there myself, so yeah, I can't
Speaker 3: wait to get in there and get the tour started.
Speaker 2: Absolutely look forward to that. We'll be back in your
Speaker 2: podcast feed probably a day or so after the game
Speaker 2: as we look ahead to the Sharks game coming up
Speaker 2: in Durmam. We'll chat to you from Durban though. Thanks
Speaker 2: to Mark Kelly for producing. We are powered by Forklift Solutions,
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