WEBVTT - Rugby Direct Episode 114: Tour launch - The first team is in 0:00:09.093 --> 0:00:11.973 You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B. 0:00:12.373 --> 0:00:16.173 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio, 0:00:19.413 --> 0:00:30.253 Straight down the Middle Sky Try get inside the game 0:00:30.613 --> 0:00:34.413 from every end goal. It's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith 0:00:34.533 --> 0:00:37.133 and Leo LaPier powered by News Talks EDB. 0:00:37.373 --> 0:00:40.693 Welcome to Rugby Direct powered by Folklifb Solutions, lifting you 0:00:40.773 --> 0:00:45.013 and your business to a higher level. That afternoon on 0:00:45.053 --> 0:00:49.173 a Wednesday in Capetown and naps. We've been here for 0:00:49.253 --> 0:00:52.413 a couple of days in South Afburica. Good to be 0:00:52.533 --> 0:00:56.133 here and settling in very very well. The jet lags 0:00:56.173 --> 0:00:58.133 being a bit of a punish but other than that, 0:00:58.213 --> 0:00:58.973 enjoying being here. 0:00:59.173 --> 0:01:01.293 Yeah, it always takes a few days, doesn't it, Elliott, 0:01:01.333 --> 0:01:04.493 when you're trove halfway around the world. But great to 0:01:04.533 --> 0:01:07.453 be back in South Africa and particularly in Cape Town. 0:01:07.813 --> 0:01:11.773 Really really love the city. We had a big day yesterday, 0:01:11.773 --> 0:01:15.133 didn't we all blacks on a media day off after 0:01:15.173 --> 0:01:19.093 we arrived, So it took you up Lion's Head was 0:01:19.173 --> 0:01:23.413 quite the climb. Beautiful day, amazing views, so nice to 0:01:24.053 --> 0:01:25.893 should we say, knock the bastard off one of them? 0:01:25.933 --> 0:01:28.293 Well yeah, I declared just before the top I thought 0:01:28.293 --> 0:01:30.773 I had enough runs on the board and left you 0:01:30.853 --> 0:01:33.533 boys to it to do the final ascent. You know, 0:01:34.613 --> 0:01:37.413 some of us are Edmund Hillary's intending Norgays, and some 0:01:37.493 --> 0:01:39.413 of us are not meant to be so. But it 0:01:39.453 --> 0:01:41.133 was a great day. Feeling it today, but it was 0:01:41.133 --> 0:01:43.653 good to get out and experience a little bit of 0:01:43.653 --> 0:01:46.493 Cape Town and in stretch the leagues. All Blacks team 0:01:47.253 --> 0:01:50.933 is out for their first tour game against the Stormers. 0:01:52.373 --> 0:01:54.493 I guess it's a mix of players that haven't had 0:01:54.533 --> 0:01:57.933 many opportunities, not only this year, but you know, prior 0:01:57.973 --> 0:02:00.853 to this year, we've seen you players like Blackadder onto 0:02:00.853 --> 0:02:02.893 the bench. Here it's in Simon Parker. He's in the 0:02:03.133 --> 0:02:05.573 mix this year. Boden Barrett was well telegraphed that he 0:02:06.333 --> 0:02:09.453 would be at ten. So I and large win's that 0:02:09.533 --> 0:02:13.053 predictable team, but kind of a experimental team, which is 0:02:13.053 --> 0:02:13.933 what we're expecting. 0:02:14.453 --> 0:02:19.013 There's no shock and or as the elliott I think, yeah, 0:02:19.053 --> 0:02:23.173 I don't know if it's necessarily. Everyone couldn't predict this team, 0:02:23.213 --> 0:02:26.253 but it was always going to be a second string outfit. 0:02:26.333 --> 0:02:30.773 I think if you cast the heads to next Tuesday 0:02:30.813 --> 0:02:33.893 local time, the second game against the Sharks that looms 0:02:34.013 --> 0:02:36.773 as the likely shadow test team ten days out from 0:02:36.773 --> 0:02:40.813 the opening test. So in that context, there were always 0:02:40.853 --> 0:02:43.573 going to be a couple of rookies coming into the mix, 0:02:43.613 --> 0:02:47.933 and we see that with Lowaki the Hurricanes prop and 0:02:48.653 --> 0:02:51.253 Josh Jacob and then, like you say, those guys who 0:02:51.293 --> 0:02:55.133 haven't featured, Kyle Preston another Rikalwhany coming back onto the 0:02:55.173 --> 0:02:58.773 left wing. So a number of players getting opportunities. Boden 0:02:58.773 --> 0:03:01.533 Barrett will be a bit of a focal figure, won't 0:03:01.653 --> 0:03:04.133 At ten Patrick two below two captains the team for 0:03:04.173 --> 0:03:06.693 the for the second time in a really strong second 0:03:06.733 --> 0:03:11.893 row pair with Fabian Holland playing his first appearance after 0:03:12.213 --> 0:03:15.573 our shoulder surgery. Has only had one hit out, So 0:03:16.293 --> 0:03:18.093 on the whole, I think it's a strong all Black team. 0:03:18.133 --> 0:03:21.453 It's a new all Black team. There'll be a lot 0:03:21.493 --> 0:03:24.893 of untested combinations, so they may be a bit rusty, 0:03:25.853 --> 0:03:27.773 but there's a lot of points to prove, I think 0:03:27.813 --> 0:03:28.813 across the board as well. 0:03:28.893 --> 0:03:30.773 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And it was interesting 0:03:30.813 --> 0:03:33.893 to hear Simon Parker speak to the media before we 0:03:33.973 --> 0:03:36.413 arrived and sort of talk about not playing this year 0:03:36.413 --> 0:03:38.933 and saying, well, it's not a charity, so I can't 0:03:38.973 --> 0:03:40.693 expect it to play, and he was going to turn 0:03:40.773 --> 0:03:44.293 up and do your beast when you do get those opportunities, 0:03:44.293 --> 0:03:47.053 if you are someone like him, who do you think 0:03:47.093 --> 0:03:49.093 has the most to gain? Perhaps out of the run 0:03:49.133 --> 0:03:51.253 on team, he'll begin in the most minutes with an 0:03:51.293 --> 0:03:54.213 eye head to the bigger matches, the test matches of 0:03:54.253 --> 0:03:54.653 this tour. 0:03:55.493 --> 0:03:58.733 Yeah, I think Faban Holland's coming back into the mix. 0:03:59.093 --> 0:04:01.613 He needs game time, doesn't he after a long time out, 0:04:01.613 --> 0:04:04.373 So he's one guy that can definitely push into that 0:04:04.453 --> 0:04:08.013 test team. Massive human will break through player of the 0:04:08.093 --> 0:04:12.853 Year a couple of years back. Was played eighty minutes 0:04:12.893 --> 0:04:14.733 a lot for the All Blacks last year. And then 0:04:14.773 --> 0:04:18.253 the loose forwards I think are still contestable in some areas. 0:04:18.253 --> 0:04:20.813 Ad Severe and Luke Jacobson are pretty well locked in 0:04:20.853 --> 0:04:24.813 there and tuper Vira will probably play six. But if 0:04:24.813 --> 0:04:26.733 that does happen, then he could have two loose forwards 0:04:26.733 --> 0:04:30.893 on the bench, So big chance for Wallace Atituo, who 0:04:30.973 --> 0:04:36.933 was pretty underwhelming in his last starts at blindside against Italy, 0:04:37.213 --> 0:04:39.213 left out of the team. The following week, Dave Rennie 0:04:39.253 --> 0:04:41.093 was very open about the fact that he was dropped 0:04:41.093 --> 0:04:43.453 on form, so he comes back in to start at 0:04:43.533 --> 0:04:48.213 number eight, probably his preferred position with already not there. 0:04:48.213 --> 0:04:51.653 And then Peter Luckey, who I thought was excellent in 0:04:51.693 --> 0:04:54.533 the opening Test against France, in a surprise, we didn't 0:04:54.573 --> 0:04:56.613 see more of them. He only came off the bench 0:04:56.733 --> 0:05:01.173 late against Ireland. So when you throw into on signa 0:05:01.213 --> 0:05:03.253 in the mix who's not in this game, I think 0:05:03.293 --> 0:05:08.653 those three guys are really contesting possibly two spots on 0:05:08.693 --> 0:05:10.533 the bench, so they have lots again. And then and 0:05:10.533 --> 0:05:14.373 then a Josh Molby, who you spoke to today, gets 0:05:14.413 --> 0:05:16.413 start at fallback. And he's been a big mover, isn't he? 0:05:16.413 --> 0:05:17.773 He has been and we'll hear that interview a bit 0:05:17.853 --> 0:05:20.373 later on in the podcast. He has been a big mover. 0:05:20.933 --> 0:05:24.213 And I guess we've seen him come off the bench once, 0:05:24.293 --> 0:05:27.573 we've seen him play on the left wing once, and 0:05:27.613 --> 0:05:30.573 now we're going to see him at fullback. And while 0:05:31.853 --> 0:05:33.853 you know Damie McKenzie clearly at this point is the 0:05:33.853 --> 0:05:36.933 first choice fallback for the All Blacks, there are a 0:05:36.973 --> 0:05:40.133 number of people putting the squeeze on a wing and 0:05:40.213 --> 0:05:42.653 you just don't know whether maybe that is an option 0:05:42.733 --> 0:05:45.053 potentially down the track. You know. Will Jordan's had time 0:05:45.093 --> 0:05:48.813 at fifteen of course as well, but it does add 0:05:48.813 --> 0:05:51.173 another option to the All Blacks if that works well. 0:05:51.173 --> 0:05:54.453 He's got a good kicking game. Josh Molby playing at 0:05:54.613 --> 0:05:58.373 an international level, not this is a test, but this, 0:05:58.613 --> 0:06:00.933 you know, it's a little bit different around the requirements 0:06:00.933 --> 0:06:03.253 because they've seen him do it at super rugby level. 0:06:03.253 --> 0:06:05.213 But I think he's a player that is just making 0:06:05.253 --> 0:06:07.893 every post to winners, so intrigued to see what he 0:06:07.933 --> 0:06:10.093 can do. Look at the locks as well and go. 0:06:11.293 --> 0:06:13.573 It's going to be interesting to see what combination they 0:06:13.653 --> 0:06:17.053 land on for the first Test match, because I think 0:06:17.053 --> 0:06:18.853 there are a number of quality locks in the mix 0:06:18.893 --> 0:06:21.693 of the All Blacks at the moment. Fabian holand coming 0:06:21.693 --> 0:06:24.053 back from that shoulder injury. Of course we'll get some 0:06:24.173 --> 0:06:26.333 game time. I'd expect a heavy amount of game time 0:06:26.373 --> 0:06:29.573 over the next three tour games. Whether that's enough to 0:06:29.573 --> 0:06:31.413 put them in the Test side, I'm not entirely sure. 0:06:31.453 --> 0:06:34.093 Patrick Typerlaw too is very good at Eaton Park, San 0:06:34.213 --> 0:06:37.333 Dowi's had a good couple of opening Test matches as well, 0:06:37.373 --> 0:06:41.653 So Josh Lord is yeah, very good and it is 0:06:41.693 --> 0:06:45.253 making you know, for a player that's been on the 0:06:45.253 --> 0:06:47.453 periphery for a number of years now is right in 0:06:47.493 --> 0:06:50.173 that conversation now to be a starting lock. So with 0:06:50.293 --> 0:06:53.093 Tupo playing on the blind side, there are any number 0:06:53.133 --> 0:06:58.173 of combinations. I guess it's around also scrummaging and Lucy 0:06:58.253 --> 0:07:01.013 tight heads sort of scenario. But you know, I think 0:07:01.013 --> 0:07:04.733 there are a few things that Dave rene be keeping 0:07:04.733 --> 0:07:07.293 on in the second road department when when they see 0:07:07.293 --> 0:07:10.453 farbing hold and three to scrumming together and packing down. 0:07:10.893 --> 0:07:14.853 Yeah, Fabian's the wild card, isn't he Because on the 0:07:14.853 --> 0:07:17.133 basis of what we saw Eden Park against Iron, you'd 0:07:17.173 --> 0:07:21.053 say Paddy t and Josh Lord will start again. Be 0:07:21.093 --> 0:07:24.253 pretty hard to drop them on the basis of that performance. 0:07:25.413 --> 0:07:28.413 I think you're right that Fabian will get a lot 0:07:28.413 --> 0:07:31.573 of game time and maybe doesn't feature in the first test, 0:07:31.613 --> 0:07:36.533 but we'll firmly come into the reckoning beyond that, particularly 0:07:37.493 --> 0:07:40.613 just with Tupo probably playing six and you're just having 0:07:40.613 --> 0:07:42.853 two locks and and you're looking at too loose forwards 0:07:42.853 --> 0:07:46.613 if they do indeed go that way. But look, this 0:07:46.693 --> 0:07:48.613 is a this is a four test series as well, 0:07:48.733 --> 0:07:53.133 and there will be casualties. Dave Reddie's not going to 0:07:53.173 --> 0:07:56.653 be able to play the same team throughout. It's going 0:07:56.733 --> 0:08:00.013 to take a huge physical mental toll, and Russy is 0:08:00.013 --> 0:08:01.813 certainly going to rotate, and I think the All Blacks 0:08:01.853 --> 0:08:08.813 will have to as well. So while the large basis 0:08:08.853 --> 0:08:11.173 of that first Test team I think is pretty well 0:08:11.213 --> 0:08:14.973 locked in, I think we will see changes throughout that series, 0:08:15.013 --> 0:08:18.013 and these performances in these midweek games will firmly put 0:08:18.053 --> 0:08:22.413 players in the frame for the First Test and beyond. 0:08:22.493 --> 0:08:26.013 Yeah, it's very rare that you would see players play 0:08:26.133 --> 0:08:30.453 four test weeks in a row ever, outside of maybe 0:08:30.453 --> 0:08:33.413 a Rugby World Cup and you know, quarterfinal, semi finals, final, 0:08:33.653 --> 0:08:36.693 let alone against the world as their back exactly right. 0:08:36.813 --> 0:08:40.053 So I think you know, obviously end of U two, 0:08:40.093 --> 0:08:43.173 you play four matches in a row and those can 0:08:43.213 --> 0:08:46.133 be tricky as well. But and that's probably the only 0:08:46.173 --> 0:08:49.613 time really but playing the same opponent, I think you 0:08:49.653 --> 0:08:51.253 do need to vary it up and do need to 0:08:51.293 --> 0:08:55.493 bring something there so you know, while you know players 0:08:55.533 --> 0:08:58.373 will we experience in quick turnarounds and playing you know, 0:08:58.493 --> 0:08:59.933 four tests in a right at the end of the year, 0:08:59.973 --> 0:09:01.653 I think this is a different beast in terms of 0:09:02.013 --> 0:09:04.693 playing the spring box, so it maybe that they go 0:09:05.373 --> 0:09:08.293 and change things around entirely with the Night to Bolton 0:09:08.533 --> 0:09:09.853 or whatever it might be. I think it's going to 0:09:09.893 --> 0:09:12.093 depend on the fabric of the series and the way 0:09:12.133 --> 0:09:15.333 it unfolds as well. Just as to what selections come 0:09:15.373 --> 0:09:19.773 into play No. Finanger or four for this game, our 0:09:19.853 --> 0:09:23.453 understanding is that he's unavaiable. Selection should be right for 0:09:23.853 --> 0:09:25.653 future games in the series, so he will get some 0:09:25.693 --> 0:09:29.493 game time. So Caleb Clark on the bench and look 0:09:29.773 --> 0:09:31.933 for Caleb Clark as well. I think it's an interesting 0:09:33.733 --> 0:09:37.533 position for him to be in because we saw him 0:09:37.613 --> 0:09:39.773 come off the bench against Ireland and Eden Park and 0:09:39.813 --> 0:09:43.533 perform pretty well in that role, probably slid behind Josh 0:09:43.613 --> 0:09:45.693 More we now, you'd have to say on the left 0:09:45.693 --> 0:09:49.613 wing stakes. So opportunity in terms of a bench roll 0:09:49.653 --> 0:09:53.893 fit for Caleb Clark coming off and showing what he 0:09:53.893 --> 0:09:54.773 can do inst the Stormers. 0:09:55.173 --> 0:09:58.333 Yeah, I think it's really unfortunate for Fee. He made 0:09:58.373 --> 0:10:01.453 his debut off the bench against France and christ Church 0:10:01.613 --> 0:10:05.693 only five ten minutes into his shoulder and then has 0:10:05.733 --> 0:10:09.253 fallen all the past couple of days since arriving in 0:10:09.253 --> 0:10:11.773 South Africa. So as you say, not in contention this week, 0:10:12.413 --> 0:10:14.333 so we haven't really seen him, have we in the 0:10:14.413 --> 0:10:17.853 Black Jersey, and this would have been an opportunity to assess, 0:10:18.093 --> 0:10:21.893 you know, can he make that step up to test rugby, 0:10:21.933 --> 0:10:25.573 particularly given his uncertainty around his future. So he doesn't 0:10:25.573 --> 0:10:28.813 get that chance. He's gonna have to wait. And Caleb Clark, yeah, 0:10:28.813 --> 0:10:31.253 I think he when he has performed that bench role, 0:10:31.693 --> 0:10:33.893 he's done it really well and it is a bit 0:10:33.893 --> 0:10:36.133 of a luxury in some regards to carry a winger. 0:10:36.573 --> 0:10:40.133 But I think when he came on against Island, and 0:10:40.173 --> 0:10:42.413 I even remember the last time the All Blacks to 0:10:42.413 --> 0:10:45.133 in South Africa, he was coming off the bench and 0:10:45.773 --> 0:10:49.773 added some impact there. I'm thinking run. So he certainly 0:10:49.813 --> 0:10:52.693 did it at the MCG against the Wallabies on one occasion, 0:10:53.453 --> 0:10:56.413 so it's not foreign to him. But he will want 0:10:56.413 --> 0:10:58.693 some more game time. And yeah, in terms of the 0:10:58.693 --> 0:11:02.133 composition of that back three, Dave really has largely favored 0:11:02.173 --> 0:11:05.533 those fallbacks essentially, right. 0:11:05.493 --> 0:11:08.053 What's going back to twenty eleven sort of vibes, isn't it? 0:11:08.093 --> 0:11:13.373 And you'd have to say, on a small sample size, 0:11:13.413 --> 0:11:16.773 your Blacks have made improvements under the high ball, but 0:11:16.813 --> 0:11:19.133 they are this is where the rubber meets the road 0:11:19.173 --> 0:11:22.013 because the box Are and the Stormers and the Bulls 0:11:22.053 --> 0:11:25.413 and Sharks are going to test them in the area 0:11:25.493 --> 0:11:30.013 that's part of the South African DNA, and so Josh 0:11:30.093 --> 0:11:31.573 will be going back to fullback. He's going to be 0:11:31.613 --> 0:11:35.453 peppered there. Same with Riquewani under the high ball. Watts's 0:11:35.533 --> 0:11:40.253 capacity after others have improved. So there's gonna be a 0:11:40.293 --> 0:11:43.373 real spotlight I think on the back three throughout this 0:11:43.453 --> 0:11:45.493 tour and how they handle that. Damian McKenzie is a 0:11:45.493 --> 0:11:49.773 small fallback. Did well in July, but this is a 0:11:49.773 --> 0:11:54.413 bit of a different beast. So we have seen improvement. 0:11:54.533 --> 0:11:56.853 But that needs to continue, doesn't it? 0:11:56.853 --> 0:11:59.013 It does, It absolutely does, and I'm intrigued to see 0:11:59.053 --> 0:12:01.133 how this game goes, just in terms of setting the 0:12:01.173 --> 0:12:04.853 tone for the overall series from the All Blacks, you know, 0:12:04.893 --> 0:12:07.853 this has been a tour long in the making, and 0:12:08.413 --> 0:12:11.373 I guess you look at it and go, what's the 0:12:11.653 --> 0:12:15.693 what's the par level or the you know, the expectations 0:12:15.733 --> 0:12:18.613 for this tour. You know, what do we learn from 0:12:18.653 --> 0:12:20.733 these tour games? I guess this is another question, So 0:12:21.253 --> 0:12:23.813 what are your expectations? I guess in the overall tour 0:12:23.893 --> 0:12:26.853 from where we are sitting here on you know, two 0:12:26.933 --> 0:12:29.093 days out from the first game, to where we might 0:12:29.173 --> 0:12:30.893 end up in Baltimore in a few weeks time. 0:12:31.933 --> 0:12:34.893 I think the starting point is this is the All 0:12:34.933 --> 0:12:39.613 Blacks and the expectation the bar has to be set high. 0:12:39.653 --> 0:12:43.733 I think there's a reality to the fact that Dave 0:12:43.733 --> 0:12:48.333 Renie said this team a matter of five weeks ye, 0:12:48.733 --> 0:12:52.773 and there's clearly been improvement. I think they're in a 0:12:52.853 --> 0:12:55.333 vastly better place already than they were at the back 0:12:55.373 --> 0:12:57.213 end of last year if they were coming into this 0:12:57.293 --> 0:13:02.813 tour with that same management, with that same cloud hanging 0:13:02.853 --> 0:13:05.973 over that team, the same internal ructions that could have 0:13:06.133 --> 0:13:10.373 really imploded on this tour. So so I'm a lot 0:13:10.413 --> 0:13:14.733 more optimistic. But that word that's a buzzword, isn't it? 0:13:14.773 --> 0:13:16.813 But this is there's a reality to it. Look, the 0:13:16.853 --> 0:13:23.093 Box have phenomenal depth. They've what have they won is 0:13:23.133 --> 0:13:25.933 it four of the last five or five of the 0:13:26.053 --> 0:13:28.893 last six against the All Blacks. They've had their number. 0:13:28.933 --> 0:13:33.253 They're the world champions. I think they've won their last 0:13:33.613 --> 0:13:37.493 ten twelve games. They've swept the Southern Northern Hemisphere teams. 0:13:39.613 --> 0:13:42.093 It's an incredibly difficult place to come. I think the 0:13:42.133 --> 0:13:44.973 minimum expectation for me, Elliot is one win in South Africa, 0:13:45.373 --> 0:13:54.493 one Test win. Anything beyond that I think would be well, 0:13:54.533 --> 0:13:56.893 a great successful, a phenomenal achievement. 0:13:57.413 --> 0:13:59.773 Yeah, yeah, I think we're gonna be realistic. Is that, 0:14:00.173 --> 0:14:04.613 you know, only one team's ever come to South Africa 0:14:04.653 --> 0:14:07.493 and one a series. That was the nine ninety six group. 0:14:07.733 --> 0:14:11.373 And I think it's probably fair to say that had 0:14:11.373 --> 0:14:16.733 the All Blacks toured South Africa in the style you know, 0:14:16.973 --> 0:14:22.973 at some point between two thousand and ten and twenty twenty, 0:14:23.893 --> 0:14:26.813 they would have won probably another series. You know that 0:14:26.853 --> 0:14:28.933 they had some big wins here in South Africa, you 0:14:28.973 --> 0:14:31.573 would have backed them to win a series proper like 0:14:31.613 --> 0:14:33.613 they did in ninety ninety six, but the opportunity wasn't 0:14:33.653 --> 0:14:35.933 afforded to them. Now, you know, South Africa of the 0:14:35.933 --> 0:14:38.173 dominant force in world rugby, and you've got to go 0:14:38.213 --> 0:14:40.813 and go. Okay, well, history tells us that this is 0:14:40.893 --> 0:14:43.293 just a hard place to play, whether you're in form 0:14:43.333 --> 0:14:45.733 you're not in form, and when you're playing the world 0:14:45.853 --> 0:14:49.013 champions and a team that is, you know, as I said, 0:14:49.053 --> 0:14:51.173 the dominant force in world rugby, you've got to set 0:14:51.213 --> 0:14:55.733 your expectations realistically while also having very high standards. So look, 0:14:55.773 --> 0:14:59.693 I think in terms of without just let's discard Baltimore 0:14:59.773 --> 0:15:01.973 for a moment, but I think I'm with you that 0:15:02.253 --> 0:15:04.773 winning one of these three games, I wouldn't deem it 0:15:04.813 --> 0:15:06.613 necessarily as success, but I think that has to be 0:15:06.653 --> 0:15:10.773 the minimum for the All Blacks to go. Okay, there's 0:15:10.773 --> 0:15:15.453 a step forward there, and then you can view Baltimore 0:15:15.493 --> 0:15:18.133 its own, you know, because it's not in South Africa. 0:15:18.253 --> 0:15:21.173 So I was probably were about size it on the matter. 0:15:21.493 --> 0:15:25.733 Yeah, Look, it's this is a relentless toil. You put 0:15:25.773 --> 0:15:30.533 the midweek games aside, which you can debate the well 0:15:30.533 --> 0:15:33.053 no more won't we in the context of these games, 0:15:33.053 --> 0:15:35.613 how much you can take out of them, But you 0:15:35.653 --> 0:15:39.933 set them aside the fact that you're playing three back 0:15:39.973 --> 0:15:42.173 to back tests in South Africa against the spring Box 0:15:42.173 --> 0:15:43.973 the first time in thirty years. It's can to be 0:15:44.093 --> 0:15:49.013 relentless and it will take a huge mental physical toll 0:15:49.973 --> 0:15:51.133 and the All Blacks are going to have to get 0:15:51.173 --> 0:15:59.093 a lot right they yeah, discipline, their scrum, more, high ball. 0:15:59.133 --> 0:16:02.013 All these vulnerabilities that we've seen at times are going 0:16:02.093 --> 0:16:06.053 to be pressed to the max and there's no place 0:16:06.253 --> 0:16:12.293 and we'll rugby quite like South Africa, certainly from a 0:16:12.293 --> 0:16:16.493 Alis Park point of view, where you feel quite as 0:16:16.573 --> 0:16:22.733 much a foreigner, where you're the hostility. It's just a 0:16:22.733 --> 0:16:26.533 magic place. So look, I think there's there's reason to 0:16:26.573 --> 0:16:30.493 be optimistic. There's reason to believe that the All Blacks 0:16:30.813 --> 0:16:33.093 can certainly win one test. They've really he's got a 0:16:33.093 --> 0:16:35.973 great record against South African teams. I can't remember off 0:16:35.973 --> 0:16:37.413 the top of my head, but when he was at 0:16:37.413 --> 0:16:40.813 the Chiefs, I think he is at three or four 0:16:41.053 --> 0:16:44.133 when he was with the Wallabies and that was when 0:16:44.133 --> 0:16:46.973 they were world champions and Russy was I think director 0:16:46.973 --> 0:16:50.053 of rugby at the time, Jacques Nebinad was coach. But 0:16:51.893 --> 0:16:54.653 he knows the South African style well, he knows how 0:16:54.653 --> 0:16:57.493 to counter that and I think the All Blacks will 0:16:57.573 --> 0:17:00.373 learn a lot in these tour games as well leading 0:17:00.373 --> 0:17:04.373 into that. So one one win and then you're on 0:17:04.373 --> 0:17:07.613 the board. Look, depending on when that arrives, if they 0:17:07.653 --> 0:17:12.013 were to win a series in South Africa, well, look 0:17:12.053 --> 0:17:14.893 if they won two games in South Africa, I think 0:17:15.013 --> 0:17:20.373 that would probably eclipse the what the ninety sixteen did. 0:17:21.253 --> 0:17:25.613 Just given the dominance, as you say of this current 0:17:25.653 --> 0:17:26.333 Springbok team. 0:17:26.453 --> 0:17:28.493 Yeah, when both All World champions at the time, weren't 0:17:28.493 --> 0:17:31.333 they and the All Blacks had lost the final the 0:17:31.413 --> 0:17:34.573 year prior in South Africa. As there's a different backdrop 0:17:34.613 --> 0:17:39.493 to that series as well, you know, professionalism, and it's 0:17:39.693 --> 0:17:44.213 very very early stages, so hard to compare the two eras, 0:17:45.453 --> 0:17:47.533 but I think it would be a major achievement and 0:17:47.933 --> 0:17:50.853 we'll find out over the coming weeks how they get 0:17:50.853 --> 0:17:53.413 on and the names that will have no doubt a 0:17:53.413 --> 0:17:56.653 big influence on that are the referees appointed for the series. 0:17:57.973 --> 0:18:00.773 Four referees controlling the eight games, so each of the 0:18:00.773 --> 0:18:03.013 referee gets Each of the referees get a tour match 0:18:03.013 --> 0:18:05.773 as well as a test match. Matthew Carley gets the 0:18:05.773 --> 0:18:10.373 first one from England, Angus Gardner the second here in 0:18:10.453 --> 0:18:14.173 Cape Town, the third matches Nico Amisha Kelly of Georgia 0:18:14.333 --> 0:18:17.813 and the fourth match and final game is Carl Dixon 0:18:17.933 --> 0:18:20.333 of England, who also opens a series against the Stormers 0:18:20.773 --> 0:18:26.053 on Friday nights. So I guess your reaction to those 0:18:26.173 --> 0:18:29.373 names do they affix the way the All Blacks will 0:18:29.373 --> 0:18:33.133 play or the way the series will be played? You know? 0:18:33.373 --> 0:18:34.813 As as we look ahead to this thing. 0:18:35.893 --> 0:18:40.413 I think any official does right without no matter who 0:18:40.453 --> 0:18:43.053 they are, they will have an impact, positive or negative. 0:18:43.053 --> 0:18:46.733 I do like the distinction you made there about the 0:18:46.773 --> 0:18:50.133 All Blacks. Will get some experience with these guys in 0:18:50.373 --> 0:18:53.773 a tour match. That's important. You'll get up to speed 0:18:53.813 --> 0:18:58.453 with their nuancewers. In terms of the appointments are just 0:18:58.533 --> 0:19:00.453 broadly speaking, I would have liked to see it too, 0:19:00.453 --> 0:19:05.613 and two split Southern Northern Hemisphere and I think look, 0:19:05.973 --> 0:19:10.173 nick Berry was always up against it given the historical 0:19:10.213 --> 0:19:15.653 context and the vilifying basically of him in terms of 0:19:16.173 --> 0:19:18.333 him coming to South Africa again, but maybe he could 0:19:18.333 --> 0:19:21.333 have done Baltimore. I think he's hard done by. And 0:19:21.773 --> 0:19:24.293 Luke Pess I think should have been in the mix. 0:19:24.813 --> 0:19:27.733 I don't particularly rate Carl Dixon. I think he can 0:19:27.813 --> 0:19:32.733 lose control of the Test very easily. And Amicelley I'm 0:19:32.773 --> 0:19:35.533 not a huge fan of either. I think he's quite pedantic, 0:19:35.613 --> 0:19:37.573 doesn't necessarily have a great feel for the game, but 0:19:37.893 --> 0:19:43.933 that's that's just my view. So look, they are the appointments. 0:19:44.333 --> 0:19:47.653 You've got to get on with it, and there's no 0:19:47.773 --> 0:19:50.893 points making a mile out of a mole hole. These 0:19:50.933 --> 0:19:52.253 guys that are going to be in the middle and 0:19:52.293 --> 0:19:53.333 you're gonna have to adjust. 0:19:53.933 --> 0:19:59.053 Ye. Yeah, I would almost like to see the same 0:19:59.053 --> 0:20:01.013 referee appointed for each of the four games. 0:20:02.053 --> 0:20:05.733 And what if what if that was Michelley or Dixon, Well, at. 0:20:05.733 --> 0:20:08.373 Least you would know what you're walking into. The The 0:20:08.373 --> 0:20:10.253 problem with will Rugby and the referee at the moment 0:20:10.293 --> 0:20:13.093 is that we have you know, take these four refreez 0:20:13.173 --> 0:20:16.253 for example. All four have got different opinions on how 0:20:16.253 --> 0:20:19.613 the game should be refereed within the broader rules of 0:20:19.653 --> 0:20:22.853 the game. And I think if you have whether it's 0:20:22.853 --> 0:20:25.173 an Angus Gardener or whether it's Amisia Kelly, or whether 0:20:25.213 --> 0:20:27.653 it's Luke Petz, whoever it might be, at least you 0:20:27.733 --> 0:20:30.853 go they've got the nuances. But over a four two 0:20:30.933 --> 0:20:32.813 series we can adapt to that, we can use it, 0:20:34.093 --> 0:20:38.333 and you know, I think that is almost a better 0:20:38.373 --> 0:20:40.733 way of doing things, is that you're just gonna have 0:20:40.773 --> 0:20:45.573 one consistent referee, same linesmen, the same rs for that 0:20:45.653 --> 0:20:48.493 same TMO, and then they get used to working together. 0:20:48.533 --> 0:20:49.573 Now I know there's going to be a lot of 0:20:49.613 --> 0:20:52.213 working together with these referees because some are going to 0:20:52.253 --> 0:20:54.653 move to assistant referees and some are going to have 0:20:54.773 --> 0:20:57.213 the head referee for a certain game and rotate around, 0:20:58.053 --> 0:21:00.933 but almost go be better off just pointing Angus Gardener 0:21:00.933 --> 0:21:03.333 for four matches and in going he's our ref and 0:21:04.253 --> 0:21:05.893 you can see the flip side to that to my 0:21:05.973 --> 0:21:07.933 point of view, and go, it's better to have the variety, 0:21:07.973 --> 0:21:10.853 better to have different voices every week. But yeah, I 0:21:10.893 --> 0:21:12.733 just don't know whether you know, maybe for something like 0:21:12.733 --> 0:21:16.293 this you better often just having the same person in 0:21:16.333 --> 0:21:20.253 the middle week in week out, you know, for referees, 0:21:20.253 --> 0:21:23.053 I'm sure it's a special experiencing part of test matches 0:21:23.053 --> 0:21:26.013 and test series like this, so you know, get on 0:21:26.053 --> 0:21:29.133 them forgetting the appointments. But yeah, I mean, I think 0:21:29.453 --> 0:21:31.533 overall with World Rugby at the moment that the law 0:21:31.573 --> 0:21:35.213 book is so bad that they've got to a place 0:21:35.213 --> 0:21:39.853 where there's very there are very few referees that have 0:21:39.973 --> 0:21:44.093 the feel and nuance to referee a game of rugby 0:21:44.173 --> 0:21:47.053 in the modern test stage, with the way that coaches 0:21:47.133 --> 0:21:50.813 and players now expect the game to be officiated. It's very, 0:21:50.893 --> 0:21:54.093 very hard. But I just don't think that the depth 0:21:54.133 --> 0:21:56.413 of zeron World Rugby, So I'd go with one one 0:21:56.413 --> 0:21:59.373 referee for the entire series. So something to ponder for 0:21:59.453 --> 0:22:05.293 the future for world rugby. Types had news as well 0:22:05.293 --> 0:22:07.493 when you landed a captain. You wrote this on inzid 0:22:07.493 --> 0:22:11.733 Herald that Georgel his tour is over before it begins 0:22:11.773 --> 0:22:15.653