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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from Newstalk zed B.

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Speaker 2: And so to Cricket. As mentioned for the first time

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Speaker 2: in eight years, New Zealand Cricket is seeking a new

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Speaker 2: black Caps coach, but just which teams the newcomer will

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Speaker 2: take control of is yet to be determined. Incumbent Gary

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Speaker 2: Stead has stepped down from his white ball duties. His

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Speaker 2: contract expires in June, but he is still contemplating whether

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Speaker 2: he wants to put his name forward to remain as

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Speaker 2: Test coach. Now whether or not that's even an option

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Speaker 2: remains to be seen. New Zealand Cricket haven't yet committed

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Speaker 2: to staying with an all format coach or splitting the

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Speaker 2: roles between red and white ball for the first time ever.

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Speaker 2: New Zealand Cricket's head of High Performance, Brian Stronach said

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Speaker 2: this week the ultimate goal was to get the best

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Speaker 2: coach or coaches for New Zealand's players. England had split

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Speaker 2: coaches between twenty twelve and twenty fourteen. Andy Flower looked

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Speaker 2: after the Test side and as Giles the white ball side.

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Speaker 1: They did it.

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Speaker 2: Again between twenty twenty two and twenty twenty four with

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Speaker 2: of course our own Brendan McCullum looking after the tear

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Speaker 2: side and Matthew Mott the white ball teams, and from

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Speaker 2: the start of this year Brendan McCullum took charge across

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Speaker 2: all formats. Pakistan and South Africa also make use of

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Speaker 2: split coaches for their different setups. So what are the

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Speaker 2: pros and cons? Is it the right thing for the

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Speaker 2: black Caps to do? Let's bring in leading English cricket

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Speaker 2: writer from The Guardian, Alie Martin. Ellie, thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with some generic pros and cons, shall we.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with the pros the benefits. What are

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Speaker 2: the benefits of splitting the coaches between red and white ball.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, hi, Jason, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: I think in England's experience what they found, but particularly

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Speaker 4: in the most recent era that you'd spoke about with

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Speaker 4: mottin McCullum, was that just this sheer fixture overload meant

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Speaker 4: that splitting the coaches allowed those coaches to manage their

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Speaker 4: workloads much better. They weren't complete strung out, They could

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Speaker 4: hit each series with fresh energy. You'd have to say,

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Speaker 4: I think in other advantages you can bring in specialism

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Speaker 4: by way of format. It might be that a particular

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Speaker 4: coach has their strengths in one format and that that

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Speaker 4: actually lends itself to having a specialist for one of

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Speaker 4: the others or for the other two if it's Olyyes

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Speaker 4: and T twenty and I think a big thing at

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Speaker 4: the moment we're finding in the modern era, particularly with

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Speaker 4: the rise of franchise T twenty cricket, is that coaches can

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Speaker 4: pick up really lucrative gigs for pretty much an annual

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Speaker 4: salary for about two months work. And that being the case,

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Speaker 4: is that by splitting the coaches you can actually bring in.

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Speaker 3: More of the talent pool around the world and be

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Speaker 3: a slightly more.

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Speaker 4: Attractive proposition, so that that particular coach may be able

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Speaker 4: to marry up working with the national team and still

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Speaker 4: having the opportunities in franchise cricket as well. So that

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Speaker 4: was certainly England's thinking when they split it with McCullum

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Speaker 4: and Mott. But as you mentioned, we've gone back to

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Speaker 4: the single coach now in England.

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Speaker 2: All right, So those are the pros. Let's talk about

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Speaker 2: the cons conversely, what are the downsides Ellie of split coaches?

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Speaker 3: Well, the cons are that well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, with split coaches is that you can have you

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Speaker 4: can get into a situation where the two teams, or

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Speaker 4: maybe that the test team and the white ball team

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Speaker 4: are at very different stages of their development and the

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Speaker 4: one medicine for one team is not necessarily the medicine

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Speaker 4: that the other team requires. So in that instance, you

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Speaker 4: can find that with two coaches that sometimes the messaging

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Speaker 4: can become a bit mixed and for it to work well,

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Speaker 4: I believe you have to have a real alignment in

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Speaker 4: terms of the overall vision between the two coaches.

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Speaker 3: And extremely good communication.

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Speaker 4: Another pitfall what we saw and a good example was

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Speaker 4: during that Flower Gild split that England had ten ten

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Speaker 4: twelve years ago, was that one team can feel like

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Speaker 4: it's getting the others getting priority in terms of resource.

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Speaker 4: I mean the way England and their schedule is mapped

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Speaker 4: out is it's there have been times when you know,

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Speaker 4: the selectors have had to decide who is going into

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Speaker 4: what format and who's being rested, and quite often one

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Speaker 4: format and one coach will feel like they are the

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Speaker 4: sort of the second class citizen in that instance. So

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Speaker 4: that that is an issue and that does require good

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Speaker 4: communication and a good alignment of the overall goal for

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Speaker 4: all teams at to work, I believe.

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Speaker 2: So England have gone to split coaches twice and come

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Speaker 2: back twice. So is that an admission of sorts that

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Speaker 2: it doesn't work, or or as the current scenario where

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Speaker 2: I've broader all back under Brendan McCallum just based around

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Speaker 2: Brandon McCallum.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, particularly in that instance of the Mott

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Speaker 4: McCullum one. I mean there was a huge lag in

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Speaker 4: terms of fixtures after the pandemic and actually England found themselves.

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Speaker 3: You know, a Test match would finish on day five.

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Speaker 4: And quite literally the following day a white ball series

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Speaker 4: would start in another part of the world, so that

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Speaker 4: coach cannot be in two places at one time. So

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Speaker 4: it really was a kind of pragmatic view that was

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Speaker 4: taken in that instance. And you know, England did enjoy

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Speaker 4: some early success in when they had the split coaching there.

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Speaker 4: England did win that T twenty World Cup at the

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Speaker 4: end of twenty two, and at the same time the

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Speaker 4: Test team enjoyed a really strong revival under McCullum and Stokes.

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Speaker 4: So we saw in that instance that you know, it

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Speaker 4: did work initially I think what's happened subsequently is that the.

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Speaker 3: Fixture congestion has eased a little bit.

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Speaker 4: We're actually seeing it might only be a week or

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Speaker 4: two weeks, but there are gaps actually starting to develop

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Speaker 4: in the schedule between series, so a coach can visibly

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Speaker 4: get from one to the next. And I think with

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Speaker 4: England not going that well under Modern and Butler in

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Speaker 4: the end they gave up both their world titles at

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Speaker 4: a very poor Champions Trophy, which was McCullum's first assignment

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Speaker 4: and led to Josh Butler being being sacked as captain

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Speaker 4: or stepping down as captain, but it was kind of inevitable.

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Speaker 3: I think looking at that is that McCullum has seen it.

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Speaker 4: I think he's he believes he can make it work,

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Speaker 4: and England are quite fortunate they have a coach of

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Speaker 4: his caliber and kind of state who believes he can

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Speaker 4: commit to a year round, single job with the national

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Speaker 4: team when as I mentioned earlier, there is a huge

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Speaker 4: appeal there to surely pick up a couple of gigs

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Speaker 4: on the side in T twenty, which, as I say,

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Speaker 4: a pretty lucrative.

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Speaker 2: Just for reference, Ellie, how much crossover is there currently

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Speaker 2: between England's red and white ball sides in terms of

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Speaker 2: players who play just read ball just white ball, in

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Speaker 2: players who play both.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good question.

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Speaker 4: It's certainly during that sort of post pandemic era they

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Speaker 4: really did split off into two separate groups because of

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Speaker 4: the logistics I mentioned, and what you had in that

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Speaker 4: instance was guys like Ben Stokes and Joe would kind

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Speaker 4: of come back just for the major tournaments and that

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Speaker 4: does create issues. You know, you kind of build one

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Speaker 4: team in bilateral cricket, but then some big stars come

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Speaker 4: back for the main event that can knock people out

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Speaker 4: of position, that can change the strategy, so that can

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Speaker 4: create an issue. What we're finding with McCullum now with

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Speaker 4: the fixtures having eased a bit for England, and this

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Speaker 4: probably reflects his background with New Zealand as well, is

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Speaker 4: that he is looking to foster probably a more tight

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Speaker 4: knit group and I think he's trying to bring the

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Speaker 4: two sets of players into one and have a smaller

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Speaker 4: pool so that he can get consistent messaging into a

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Speaker 4: smaller pool of players who can carry it across formats.

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Speaker 4: One of the big sort of takeaways England had from

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Speaker 4: their very poor champions trophies. They really believe now that

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Speaker 4: that Test and ODI cricket are the two formats that

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Speaker 4: really marry up closest, and that T.

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Speaker 3: Twenty is now the outliers.

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Speaker 4: So it might be that, you know, we've just got

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Speaker 4: Harry Brooker as an all format players, just been made head.

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Speaker 3: A captain of the white ball teams.

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Speaker 4: But it might be that his T twenty side probably

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Speaker 4: contains more specialists going down the line, and that we

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Speaker 4: see the ODI teams and Test teams marry up a

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Speaker 4: bit more, certainly with the batting and also potentially with

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Speaker 4: the fast ballers as well.

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Speaker 2: That is so interesting that T twenty is now becoming

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Speaker 2: the one which is different, rather than teas cricket being

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Speaker 2: the one that is different. Ellie, do you think the

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Speaker 2: players who play just white ball or just red ball

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Speaker 2: cricket would prefer a coach just for them?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but potentially I think, I mean again, it will

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Speaker 4: come down to the individual's strengths as a coach and

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Speaker 4: whether they do have a good sort of cross format caliber.

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Speaker 4: Another thing we're finding at the moment is that players

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Speaker 4: are really looking for coaches who've been there and done that,

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Speaker 4: and that is you know, they really kind of respect

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Speaker 4: the caps and the achievements of players of coaches in

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Speaker 4: their playing days, so.

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Speaker 3: That's another factor there.

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Speaker 4: I think it really does come back down to the individuals.

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Speaker 4: It comes down to the individuals selected, It comes down

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Speaker 4: to alignment of.

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Speaker 3: Vision, and it comes down to excellent communication.

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Speaker 4: If you can get those right, I do think it

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Speaker 4: can work, but it really does sort of depend on resources,

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Speaker 4: whether equally financial resources, whether New Zealand can attract that

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Speaker 4: one big name coach and get them on a year

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Speaker 4: round salary, or whether they're actually splitting. It does help

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Speaker 4: them find the best candidate for each format because it

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Speaker 4: allows that coach to also go off and either either

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Speaker 4: take their well earned breaks or or maybe pick up

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Speaker 4: a gig in one of those champions in one of

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Speaker 4: those franchise leagues. I was actually I was crunching the

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Speaker 4: numbers for New Zealand and England in the up to

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Speaker 4: the end of April and twenty seven, which is the

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Speaker 4: end of the world.

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Speaker 3: The current Future Tours program.

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Speaker 4: New Zealand have about one hundred and fifty one days

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Speaker 4: of cricket outside of global tournaments, England one hundred and

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Speaker 4: sixty six. So actually in New Zealand have got quite

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Speaker 4: a bit of test cricket coming up, so I can

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Speaker 4: see why they are mulling this over.

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Speaker 3: But it is still less than England with that one coach.

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Speaker 4: So you think in theory it should be possible to

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Speaker 4: have a single coach overseeing the whole thing. They might

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Speaker 4: miss the odd series to have a break, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's a bit of family time. That probably comes down

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Speaker 4: to have the strength of their assistant coaches and whether

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Speaker 4: they're able to step up, But that also provides opportunities

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Speaker 4: for the coach development as well.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, I just began to get your view on something

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Speaker 2: that high performance manager Brian Stronach here at New Zealand

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Speaker 2: Cricket said this week. He said, at the moment, we

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Speaker 2: haven't any strong preference for either a split coaching role

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Speaker 2: or a sole appointment who covers all three formats, and

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Speaker 2: we're unlikely he said, to be clearer on that until

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Speaker 2: we see who's putting their name forward. I found that interesting.

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Speaker 2: Does it seem like the right approach to you? Or

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Speaker 2: should they decide first of all if they're going to

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Speaker 2: split them or not and then take their applications accordingly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it probably is the right approach. I

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Speaker 4: think you do have to kind of survey the field

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Speaker 4: and see what the options out there are out there,

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Speaker 4: and I think that will come down so the individuals

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Speaker 4: who come in, they have those discussions, you may find

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Speaker 4: I mean England certainly found this.

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Speaker 3: I think with McCullum.

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Speaker 4: The initial suspicion was that he was kind of geared

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Speaker 4: up towards the white ball side, and when they had

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Speaker 4: those initial conversations, from his point of view, he saw

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Speaker 4: the greater remedial work needing to be done with the

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Speaker 4: Test team and that's what really appealed to him. At

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Speaker 4: the time, they thought England was, you know, the white

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Speaker 4: ball team was a pretty well oiled machine. They did

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Speaker 4: have two world titles, so they kind of that did

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Speaker 4: stack up in some respects. But what we've subsequently seen

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Speaker 4: is that white ball team has fallen off and the

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Speaker 4: McCullum now wants get the whole thing together. The question

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Speaker 4: I have seen this point raised by Mike Atherton, former

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Speaker 4: England cats in himself, is the whether the kind of

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Speaker 4: magic of McCullum and that messaging that he brings will

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Speaker 4: that be spread too thinly across three teams year round.

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Speaker 4: Will it lose some of its luster? Because players will

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Speaker 4: be consistently hearing the same voice over again and that

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Speaker 4: might maybe shorten his shelf life long term.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. We'll have to see how that one

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Speaker 3: plays out. It hasn't been a.

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Speaker 4: Great start for him in the white ball formats, but

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Speaker 4: you know this is now a fresh start with a

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Speaker 4: new captain and with the schedule easing. You know he

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Speaker 4: will hope that he can he can get that message

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Speaker 4: across in all three formats and the results taken up

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Speaker 4: to Neil Well.

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Speaker 2: I think we'd love to have bringher McCullum judge our teams,

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Speaker 2: but clearly it's not going to happen. Ellie, You've given

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Speaker 2: us heaps to think about and know our listeners are

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Speaker 2: going to want to who I have their say on this.

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Speaker 2: Just before you go, though, just want to flick across

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Speaker 2: the football because you are a Nottingham Forest fan. Hidy

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Speaker 2: times for you, third in the Premier League with seven

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Speaker 2: games to go, see me fine, the FA CAUP and

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Speaker 2: of course our man Chris what at the heart of

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Speaker 2: it all, although as you'll also know, he got injured

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Speaker 2: when he was back here playing for New Zealand and

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Speaker 2: those FEEFA World Cup qualifiers. But how much have you

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Speaker 2: enjoyed watching Forest and watching our man Chris Ward being

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Speaker 2: them in for you this season?

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Speaker 4: Oh man, it's been manner from heaven. I cannot think

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Speaker 4: of a He's the best striker we've had, probably since

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Speaker 4: Collimore about twenty five years ago. Just that incredible low

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Speaker 4: heart rate, the way that he's able to pick himself

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Speaker 4: up even after.

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Speaker 3: A miss and still put the next one away.

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Speaker 4: He's a real leader on the field up front for us.

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Speaker 4: I did actually tune in to watch that World Cup qualifying. Finally,

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Speaker 4: I think it's sort of over breakfast time. My wife

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Speaker 4: thought I was mad and I was grimacing when Chris.

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Speaker 3: Wood went off with that injury. But yeah, it's an

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Speaker 3: incredible time at the club.

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Speaker 4: I'm just waiting to find out if I got my

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Speaker 4: FA Cup semi final tickets through. I hope I should

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Speaker 4: find out in the next twenty four hours, and hoping

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Speaker 4: that Chris is back on the park for them, because

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Speaker 4: we do need him. We played without a striker on

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Speaker 4: the weekend because of injuries, so we need them back ASVP.

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Speaker 2: All right, We'll keep our fingers crossed for that for

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Speaker 2: you and also for our national team as well. I

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Speaker 2: hope you get your FA Cup semi final tickets as well, Eley,

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Speaker 2: I think you probably deserved them. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 2: joining us to talk some cricket mate. We'll do it

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Speaker 2: again soon.

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Speaker 3: Lovely cheers Jason.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to news talks ed b weekends from midday, or follow

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