WEBVTT - Why the RMA is being scrapped (again) and what it means for your backyard 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:05.640 Kyota. 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.959 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:17.080 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Twenty twenty 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:21.320 five came with a promise of the largest economic reform 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:26.560 in a generation. It's when the government unveiled its radical 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.960 overhaul of resource management laws, which aims to cut the 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:36.000 number of consents currently required by forty to fifty percent. 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.400 Led by RM reform Minister Chris Bishop, the move will 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:45.160 see the decades old RM replaced with two laws, one 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.600 focused on planning and the other on environmental protection, that 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.200 due to be passed by the end of this year 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.480 and be operational by twenty twenty nine. But what does 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.600 it all mean and why has it taken so long 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.840 to to tangle this convoluted law if so many people 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.840 agreed it needed to be done. Today on the Front Page, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.520 Herald Political editor Thomas Coglan is with us to break 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:19.880 it all death. First off, Thomas, what is the ROMA? 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.280 Why have there been so many calls to change it? 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.440 And why have we been talking about changing it for decades? 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:27.080 Yes? 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.200 So, the RAMA is the Resource Management Act, and the 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.839 Resource Management Act basically does what it says on the term. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.000 It manages the nation's resources. Basically, all of our resources, 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.200 from the air that you breathe, to the forest to 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.280 the waterways to the land that you build your house on, 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.520 they are managed by the Resource Management Acts. Basically everything 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.080 apart from mineral resources, which are managed under different legislation, 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:55.240 but almost everything else is managed by this one law 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.000 that was passed in nineteen ninety one. It was a 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:00.520 bipart as a labor national if it laid started that 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.240 the government changed in nineteen ninety National pasted it and 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.920 since then all of our resources have been managed under 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.880 this one piece of legislation. Prior to that, resources were 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.919 managed under many different pieces of legislation seven one for waters, serve, 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.920 one for this and that. So it consolidated the more 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.560 than one piece of legislation. It was meant to simplify it. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.760 It was meant to provide a clear direction on what 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.280 you could do and we are and how Now it 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.560 didn't quite work like that, and almost since the beginning, 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.560 the ROMA has failed to deliver on that promise of simplicity, 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.280 of allowing development, allowing New Zealand's economy to grow, allowing 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.680 us to build more houses, more business premises, more factories, 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.000 all of that stuff, allowing us to do that whilst 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.720 also projecting the environment that we love and also which 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.280 our lives depend on. You know, it's no use building 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.720 heaps of factories to create lots of jobs if we 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:51.760 pollute the air and make us all sick. The RAMA 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.400 is meant to balance those two things, and so for 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.240 basically its entire life, it has been a subject of controversy. 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.359 The controversy really picked up in the two thousands when 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.760 the housing crisis started to rear its head a little bit, 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:09.040 and the RMA was blamed for stuff like why our 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.639 roads are so expensive when our roads are partly expensive 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:13.840 to build because it takes so much time and money 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.200 to consent them, and the houses are the same. It's 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.040 really hard and expensive to build a house, which means 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.240 that house prices have gone up because it's actually much 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:23.440 easier to buy an existing house for a lot of 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:24.959 money than it is to just buy a piece of 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.400 land and build one. And so for a long time 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.800 we've been talking about remedying it. Then under the Labor government, 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.040 the last Labor government, they commissioned a working group which 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.680 essentially said, we need to repeal this thing. Entirely and 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.560 replace it with two different pieces of legislation. That's probably 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.640 the start of your question where you say, why have 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:43.320 we been talking about it for so long? We really 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.840 started talking about it. Then Labor did repeal it. The 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.000 Labor repealed the RMA, got rid of it, replaced it 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.440 with two new pieces of legislation. But that wasn't the end. 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.400 The government that we currently have, the National lead coalition, 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.400 they didn't like what Labor did. They thought it was 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.160 overly complex and replaced one complex regime with another complex regime. 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.520 Labor actually just disputes that, and actually there are lots 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.960 of similarities between what National has done and what Labor's done. 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:13.680 So when the coalition came in, they repealed the repealed RMA, 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.560 they brought back the RMA. So the resurrected this. This 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.560 this RMA has has been brought back to life. It 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.800 is a resurrected law. The RMA is currently alive, that 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.560 is currently the law of the land, but it will 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.839 be repealed again. It will be repealed for a second time. 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.239 Not many pieces of legislation get to be repealed twice, 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:34.200 and then it will be replaced with two new laws, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:38.400 which which one of which was Planning Act which sort 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.720 of defined the planning rules. The other one as more 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:42.039 environmentally focused. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:46.520 At yeah, and on Labour's plans versus national's plans. I 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:51.640 know the Minister responsible for the RMA, Chris Bishop, has promised, 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.440 you know, a bigger and better one. Is it bigger 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:54.880 and better? 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:56.400 That's a really good question. 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:58.520 And I'm going to be a wee bit of vasive 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.000 because I'd quite like to hear what the Selecte committee. 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:03.240 The laws were introduced last year. 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.400 It'll be interesting to see what people people say in 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.800 Selecte Committee when they come. Certainly labors labors there are 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.200 a lot of similarities. So Labor Labor reduced the number 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.839 of plans that councils would produce. So councils produced under 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.880 the old existing regime more than one hundred plans. They 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.360 reduced that number to I think seventeen plans, which would 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.760 be roughly one for every regional council. The government is 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.159 basically doing the current government is basically doing the same 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.080 thing in a slightly different way, reducing the number of 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:37.640 plans and focusing on on doing more of the more 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.159 of the heavy lifting, the big controversial stuff. At the 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.400 beginning of the process, getting everything sorted out at the 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.360 planning stage so that when it actually comes to kind 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.440 of build a house the year, you look at the 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.200 plan and the plans for the season. More or less, yes, 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.960 you can within these rules. It's slightly more complicated than that, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.080 but it's sort of the idea so that those that 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.640 those those principles are roughly the same. There was some 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.120 complexity around some of the Maori principles that were in 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.159 the in the Labor the Labor the Labor version and 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.200 and and some submitters on the Labor version were critical 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.360 of it and thought it was overly complex and sort 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.599 of unhelpful. There is a debate over whether the National 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.600 should have just repealed the complicated and helpful bits from 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.280 Labour's version rather than go matches or on the board, 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:25.440 but that's not what they did. 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:26.839 So we are where we are. 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.720 But certainly when we when we get to the Slik Committee, 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:31.679 it will be interesting to hear from those submitters again 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.040 to see whether they think this one is any benefit 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.440 what Labor proposed. Because Labour's one was welcomed, I think 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.960 I'm balanced people people were happy that Labored did what 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.480 it did, but it was not without controversy. 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.520 It's too hard to get consent from major infrastructure projects, 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:54.000 for example, for the energy, the roads, the rail the hospitals, 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.520 the schools we need to build. I mean some of 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.279 these even public sector projects, you know, hospitals, schools, tied 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.640 up and consenting processes for months, years at a time. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:04.680 I mean, it should not take six to eight years 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.280 to consent a wind farm in New Zealand, should not 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.560 take ten years to get an extension to a port, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.480 for example. These are the type of real life examples 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.640 that we're trying to deal with with the RMA, and 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:19.120 they've unfortunately made New Zealand a far less prosperous place 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.320 than it otherwise can and should be, if. 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.080 We get into the weeds a little bit. I liked 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:32.280 your explanation of the regime on externalities, because that's what 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:33.880 it comes down to. Hey, if I want to build 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.720 something in my backyard, you know what is it? Can 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.360 you give us that? In plain English? 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:45.040 Externalities is basically, if I am in a house right now, 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:49.760 and if I decide to build like a coffee roastree. 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:51.680 I'm not sure if you're ever lived next to a 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:56.040 coffee roasty. It smells like coffee being roasted it's actually 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:57.840 it's not a case smell. It's not to everyone's taste. 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.360 I don't mind it, but it's smells. 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:00.800 It smells. 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.960 It's not great if you're it's not everyone's taste. So 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:05.760 if I build a coffee roaste on my house, well, 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:07.320 great for me. I make a lot of money selling 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.880 my coffee, especially in Wellington, but not so good for 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:13.440 my neighbors. They don't make any money from me selling coffee, 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.880 and their houses smell like burnt toast because I build 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:17.360 a coffee roast tree on my house. 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:18.840 So that's the externality. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.160 The externality is is there is their houses smell like coffee, 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:22.840 they lose money. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:24.520 I make money. Not great. 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.040 So there's an externality here which basically means that I 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:29.760 will not be able to build a coffee roast try 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.600 on my house. It is a residential My my house 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.520 is on a residential zoning, and and and and. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:37.439 Therefore the sort of. 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.679 Old factory pollution that would that would come from my 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.920 my that that that that roastery would not be allowed. 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:48.600 Now, by contrast, if. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.400 I built a new deck on my house, or if 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.959 I if I did other things on my land that 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.720 affected my neighbor's not a little bit, not not, not 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.120 at all. There is no externality here and there. For 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.800 I would, I would have a wider remit within certain 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.440 rules to allow that. Obviously, there is still a building code, 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:09.840 I would. You know, there is still that the which 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.560 is covered under under the building X. So you know, 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.000 I can't just build something unsafe on my house. 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:15.400 I can't. 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.840 I can't build a that would collapse. But but but 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.160 so long as my actions on my own land do 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:27.280 not affect other people, then then I'm more or less 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:29.280 allowed to do it. There was there have been some 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:34.559 cases where where councilors quote their nose into even the 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:40.840 configuration of internal configuration of apartments, not a structural configuration. 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.560 This isn't about whether the apartment building would collapse or not, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.400 but it was sort of you know, should your couch 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.600 face this wall a wall, or how you know, stuff 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.880 like that that is that has gone under this new rating. 0:09:55.720 --> 0:10:01.560 So changes to five national directives the RMA have now 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.440 taken effect things that will make it easier to consent 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.480 minds and quarries. For example, then you've got converting your 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.640 garage into a granny flat. Presumably this is kind of 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.840 confusing because when I read up on their RM changes, 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.040 aren't they meant to come in in twenty twenty nine? 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.480 So are these kind of national directives just logistical stuff 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.720 that kind of needs to happen before they start, you know, 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:26.480 talking about it? 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:27.200 Yeah, bit of both. 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.680 So Chris Bishop has been as the minister in charge 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:34.200 of this, He's had a multi stage he's called it, 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.600 I think multiple tranches of ROMA reform. So while they 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.280 are changing the whole RMA that the main law at 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.800 the top of it, they're making tweets to the existing 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.160 regime which will then be ordered over into the new regime. 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.760 So these are the national environmental standards and policy standards 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.640 that are promulgating now. They are rules regulations that can 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.800 be made by cabinet and agreed by cabinet and then 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.520 gazetted and then they become the law of the land. 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.120 They exist their current law and then they can be 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.880 adopted on a new law. So as of this week, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.520 the new Granny Flat rules. So these are detached the 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.439 official terminology and read it off the piece of paper 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.760 because I always forget it as detached minor residential units 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.600 which I think up to which I think can be 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.680 up to seventy square meters, so sadly not the garage. 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.600 Garage I don't think can be a granny flat, but 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.640 you can put uh what. 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:28.360 If it's detached though, it's a very good question. 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.600 You can put a granny flat of up to seventies 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.240 square meters on your on your property detached mine and 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.160 residential unit. Residential unit still has to meet certain rules. 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.120 Can't be you know, moldy, deadly whatever. You know, there 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.560 are still there are still rules around around the houses 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:45.680 and what they can. 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:48.720 Look like. I wilsoy not look like that. 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.800 But exists as but you can now do that as 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.280 of as of January this year, which is which is 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.720 which is nice? If that's whatever what you're doing that 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.360 those those rules come under one of these one of 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.199 these policy statements which has been gazeated, which means it's 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.040 now the law, and then they get carried over into 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.280 the New York so that they are the government is 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:13.240 kind of it's a horrible terminology that every government loves 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.840 to use. But they say a rolling mall of initiatives 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.160 so that they start here and goes. 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.280 On right, so you can kind of start getting the 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.880 benefits of the ROMA reform slowly, but surely I can 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.680 go to Bunnings this weekend and get my wood for 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:31.440 my new goola out the back. But the full effect 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.800 of the law is that kind of twenty twenty nine 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:35.560 ish date, I suppose. 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:37.760 Yes, there's the whole the. 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.080 Yes, the sort of the main pieces of the RAMA, 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.120 the big stuff that the new Planning Regime dat all 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.360 comes towards the end of the decade, and there are 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.040 a whole lot of other reforms. You know, we haven't 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.760 even talked about the local government reforms. The government wants 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:59.640 to try and as sort of tactfully pushing a maldimation 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.160 onto councils, trying to get the regional councils and the 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.480 territorial authorities to merge. Those new councils would then be 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.240 the ones who are drawing up the plans under the 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:11.360 new ROMA, which will then implement some of these changes 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.719 that we're talking about. So it's like hurting sheep. We've 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.280 got all these different things that they're trying to get 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.680 through the game at the same time. But it is 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.080 at the end of the decade where where the full 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:27.640 OROMA does come into force, and of course that it 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.800 does require some of these other reforms to take place 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:32.600 in order to actually work. 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.120 Yeah, because like you said, I mean the goalas and 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.520 the granny flats and the new decking out the back 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.000 is probably small fry as opposed to what the change 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.320 will mean for local councils. Currently, the government says that 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.720 there are somewhere like one thousand, one hundred and seventy 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:52.360 five different kinds of zones in New Zealand, which with 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.840 them carry all different rules. So what does it mean 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.319 when it talks about these zones. 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.640 Yes, so zone it's like a you know, you're in 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:03.599 a residential zone you can build a house, you know, 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.920 residential property or you're like a load nsity or high 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.720 dnsity residential zone. Can you build an apartment building here 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.600 or is it just a sort of detached home that 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.040 you can build here? There's and the current regime is 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.520 allows a lot of latitude for bespoke zones, which is 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.920 why you get over a thousand of them, which which 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.640 a lot of people think is slightly ridiculous. So to councils, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.600 councils have a lot of latitude to do what they 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.920 want in that regard. Now, what the changes, not what 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.880 these changes will do is reduce those the number of 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:34.560 zones down quite radically. 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:35.960 In Japan, I. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.920 Think they only have thirteen, and the current regime has 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.800 a number. With the new regime, part of me has 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.000 a number which will be in the tens. That basically 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.160 means that councils don't really have a choice to to 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.800 to use sort of bespoke zoning measures and and basically 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:54.520 we have to say, well, this is a residential zone 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:59.200 and therefore houses can be built here, and we're not 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.479 we're not going to use zoning to dictate quite specifically 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.040 what kind of houses can go here. People can live here, 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.200 you can build a house here. You know, this isn't 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.360 the this isn't the blue house with the red draw. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.080 Zone, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:22.960 That's kind of the regime is sort of metastasized into 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.080 an overly prescriptive regime, which is why you get more 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.320 than a thousand zones, and the government wants it to 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.400 become a more kind of liberal regime where you have 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.640 fewer zones and giving people who are actually doing the 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.200 building during the planning more lagitude to to sort of 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.640 do what they want within the rules, within the rules. 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.400 Yeah, for the builders, that's actually, when we're doing our job, 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:55.480 there's not a lot of change in that respect, but 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:59.880 it's actually getting to putting your first nail into the timber. 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.400 It takes a long time for some Sometimes you wonder 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.560 why it takes so long. It's the paperwork behind the 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.560 scenes that will speed it up for the guys and 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:09.120 girls doing the work on the ground. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.680 So when you talk about the councils then having to 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.240 go ahead and do this kind of work themselves, that's 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.040 that's what we call the spatial plans, right. 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:24.120 Yes, so the spatial planning is there was a focus 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.840 of labor regime. Of the labor regime as well. The 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.640 spatial planning will ask counsels to look over a thirty 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:36.520 year horizon with what needs to be done in the area. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.760 So you will think, right over the next thirty years, well, 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.320 this corridor it's going to be, is going to grow 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.800 and develop. This is sort of an industrial corridor. This 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.400 will continue to be industrial, so maybe we will need 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:55.520 to preserve this this this this trunk of land for 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.400 a rail line or a large highway to carry all 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.400 the trucks heavy industry. This is a residential This area 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.080 is a residential area. It is going to continue to grow, 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.840 it will possibly identify, so we'll need to plan to 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.480 over the next thirty years improve the water infrastructure and 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.520 the sewage infrastructure. So you know, ten thousand people live 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.720 there now, forty thousand people will live there in thirty 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.320 years time, so we need to plan over the next 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.159 thirty years to build bigger and better pipes, and to 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:29.159 build a new train station and roads and all that 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.000 sort of stuff. So by getting all that planning done 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:37.000 at the top end, it gives planners over the councilors 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.560 over those thirty years and developers greater confidence to. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:44.359 Sort of meet the plan. 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.760 So you will be able to make these zones under 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.639 The councils will then be able to implement the zones 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.080 which will and developers and councils will have confidence that yes, 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.920 this is a residential zone. Yes we can densify this zone. 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.399 Yes there will be infra structure to deal with with 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.399 with with what is coming. New Zealand obviously gets a 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:09.359 bear rep for housing and housing is far too expensive here. 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:15.240 But over the last ten years New Zealand has slowly 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:19.520 moved towards intensification, and particularly in Auckland, there's been a 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.320 lot of quite good in intensification, but one of the 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.480 controversies in Auckland has been that the infrastructure has somewhat lacked. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.919 So you are putting in putting intensification, we're and creating 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:31.800 traffic champs because all of a sudden, all these people 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.640 live all these people are living on a Victorian street 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.000 which was built for a horse and cart and is 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:42.720 now dealing with five hundred uts. That is a disaster 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.320 for the people who live there. And so we're sort 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.399 of trying to get better at that now to ensure 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:58.040 that the infrastructure and the development happened concurrently to that 0:18:58.040 --> 0:18:59.440 that that dilemma. 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.240 And it would kind of make sense in that spatial 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.680 planning process to have a lot less cooks in the kitchen. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.600 I suppose do you reckon that this is all making 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.520 way for the next kind of wayth of super cities? 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:22.120 Perhaps, yes, certain, certainly, I think I think Wellington there's 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:23.520 not much super about Wellington. 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:25.200 Wellington. 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.120 Wellington seems destined to be malgamated into what into into 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:33.399 something approximating the super city that that Auckland has become. 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.160 So the Wellington councils will probably get together in form 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:37.359 one one big council. 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:40.399 Yeah, at the moment. 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.800 The obviously there is a regional council that sits at 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.880 the top of all of the Wellington councils, but there 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.440 could be a bit of coordination between them. 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.240 You know that to use. 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.840 Wellington as an example, Wellington, the Greater Wellington Regional Council 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.199 runs the sort of buses and trains and they go 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.639 through multiple multiple councils. You know, you can catch a 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.920 train from the Wide up to work in Wellington and 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.879 you'd go through you'd start and a wider upper council. 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.520 You would then go into one of the hat councils, 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.040 and I think some one of the train lines goes 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.359 through two of the hop councils before ending in Wellington Council. 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.240 So on the train jour need to work, you're passing 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:25.600 through four or five different territorial authorities and the infrastructure 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.119 that was on either side of that train line is 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.840 is the is the is the purview of those councils, 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.720 So you can see that there is an argument to 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:40.520 link that up into one system. So the regional council, 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:42.960 obviously the technicalogy use the Wellington example, does run that 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:48.280 is responsible for transport, but the physical infrastructure is often 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.119 the responsibility of territorial authorities, so yes, there was an 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.920 argument for that. It's probably actually to be fear the 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:57.720 buses involved, sorry, the trains involved Keepy Rail as well, 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.960 so maybe buses is a better example, but anyway, you 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:02.320 get the picture. 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.760 And lastly, Thomas, in terms of sore or this is 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.760 to go to the Select Committee obviously, as you mentioned, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.199 is there anyone adamantly opposed? I mean, I suppose I 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.560 do see a lot of talk about, for instance, making 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.080 way for quarries and consenting minds making it easier. But 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:23.960 what are the actual chances of, you know, a group 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:28.160 of a family of endangered frogs being wiped out because 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.800 the consent process is consented to mine or something. 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:35.440 Well, I mean, Shane Jones has no affection for the 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.240