1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Twenty twenty 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: five came with a promise of the largest economic reform 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: in a generation. It's when the government unveiled its radical 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: overhaul of resource management laws, which aims to cut the 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: number of consents currently required by forty to fifty percent. 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: Led by RM reform Minister Chris Bishop, the move will 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 2: see the decades old RM replaced with two laws, one 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: focused on planning and the other on environmental protection, that 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 2: due to be passed by the end of this year 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: and be operational by twenty twenty nine. But what does 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: it all mean and why has it taken so long 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: to to tangle this convoluted law if so many people 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: agreed it needed to be done. Today on the Front Page, 16 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: Herald Political editor Thomas Coglan is with us to break 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: it all death. First off, Thomas, what is the ROMA? 18 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: Why have there been so many calls to change it? 19 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: And why have we been talking about changing it for decades? 20 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: Yes? 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 3: So, the RAMA is the Resource Management Act, and the 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 3: Resource Management Act basically does what it says on the term. 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: It manages the nation's resources. Basically, all of our resources, 24 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: from the air that you breathe, to the forest to 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 3: the waterways to the land that you build your house on, 26 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 3: they are managed by the Resource Management Acts. Basically everything 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: apart from mineral resources, which are managed under different legislation, 28 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: but almost everything else is managed by this one law 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: that was passed in nineteen ninety one. It was a 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 3: bipart as a labor national if it laid started that 31 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 3: the government changed in nineteen ninety National pasted it and 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 3: since then all of our resources have been managed under 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 3: this one piece of legislation. Prior to that, resources were 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 3: managed under many different pieces of legislation seven one for waters, serve, 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 3: one for this and that. So it consolidated the more 36 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: than one piece of legislation. It was meant to simplify it. 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 3: It was meant to provide a clear direction on what 38 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: you could do and we are and how Now it 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 3: didn't quite work like that, and almost since the beginning, 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: the ROMA has failed to deliver on that promise of simplicity, 41 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 3: of allowing development, allowing New Zealand's economy to grow, allowing 42 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 3: us to build more houses, more business premises, more factories, 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 3: all of that stuff, allowing us to do that whilst 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: also projecting the environment that we love and also which 45 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: our lives depend on. You know, it's no use building 46 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: heaps of factories to create lots of jobs if we 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: pollute the air and make us all sick. The RAMA 48 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 3: is meant to balance those two things, and so for 49 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 3: basically its entire life, it has been a subject of controversy. 50 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 3: The controversy really picked up in the two thousands when 51 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 3: the housing crisis started to rear its head a little bit, 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: and the RMA was blamed for stuff like why our 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 3: roads are so expensive when our roads are partly expensive 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 3: to build because it takes so much time and money 55 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 3: to consent them, and the houses are the same. It's 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 3: really hard and expensive to build a house, which means 57 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 3: that house prices have gone up because it's actually much 58 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: easier to buy an existing house for a lot of 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 3: money than it is to just buy a piece of 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: land and build one. And so for a long time 61 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 3: we've been talking about remedying it. Then under the Labor government, 62 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: the last Labor government, they commissioned a working group which 63 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 3: essentially said, we need to repeal this thing. Entirely and 64 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: replace it with two different pieces of legislation. That's probably 65 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: the start of your question where you say, why have 66 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 3: we been talking about it for so long? We really 67 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 3: started talking about it. Then Labor did repeal it. The 68 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 3: Labor repealed the RMA, got rid of it, replaced it 69 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: with two new pieces of legislation. But that wasn't the end. 70 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: The government that we currently have, the National lead coalition, 71 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: they didn't like what Labor did. They thought it was 72 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: overly complex and replaced one complex regime with another complex regime. 73 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 3: Labor actually just disputes that, and actually there are lots 74 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 3: of similarities between what National has done and what Labor's done. 75 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 3: So when the coalition came in, they repealed the repealed RMA, 76 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: they brought back the RMA. So the resurrected this. This 77 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: this RMA has has been brought back to life. It 78 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: is a resurrected law. The RMA is currently alive, that 79 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: is currently the law of the land, but it will 80 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 3: be repealed again. It will be repealed for a second time. 81 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 3: Not many pieces of legislation get to be repealed twice, 82 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: and then it will be replaced with two new laws, 83 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: which which one of which was Planning Act which sort 84 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 3: of defined the planning rules. The other one as more 85 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 3: environmentally focused. 86 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: At yeah, and on Labour's plans versus national's plans. I 87 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: know the Minister responsible for the RMA, Chris Bishop, has promised, 88 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: you know, a bigger and better one. Is it bigger 89 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: and better? 90 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 4: That's a really good question. 91 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: And I'm going to be a wee bit of vasive 92 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: because I'd quite like to hear what the Selecte committee. 93 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 4: The laws were introduced last year. 94 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: It'll be interesting to see what people people say in 95 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: Selecte Committee when they come. Certainly labors labors there are 96 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: a lot of similarities. So Labor Labor reduced the number 97 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 3: of plans that councils would produce. So councils produced under 98 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: the old existing regime more than one hundred plans. They 99 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 3: reduced that number to I think seventeen plans, which would 100 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 3: be roughly one for every regional council. The government is 101 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 3: basically doing the current government is basically doing the same 102 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 3: thing in a slightly different way, reducing the number of 103 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: plans and focusing on on doing more of the more 104 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 3: of the heavy lifting, the big controversial stuff. At the 105 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 3: beginning of the process, getting everything sorted out at the 106 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: planning stage so that when it actually comes to kind 107 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: of build a house the year, you look at the 108 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: plan and the plans for the season. More or less, yes, 109 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: you can within these rules. It's slightly more complicated than that, 110 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: but it's sort of the idea so that those that 111 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 3: those those principles are roughly the same. There was some 112 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 3: complexity around some of the Maori principles that were in 113 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 3: the in the Labor the Labor the Labor version and 114 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: and and some submitters on the Labor version were critical 115 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 3: of it and thought it was overly complex and sort 116 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 3: of unhelpful. There is a debate over whether the National 117 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 3: should have just repealed the complicated and helpful bits from 118 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 3: Labour's version rather than go matches or on the board, 119 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 3: but that's not what they did. 120 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 4: So we are where we are. 121 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 3: But certainly when we when we get to the Slik Committee, 122 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,679 Speaker 3: it will be interesting to hear from those submitters again 123 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: to see whether they think this one is any benefit 124 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 3: what Labor proposed. Because Labour's one was welcomed, I think 125 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: I'm balanced people people were happy that Labored did what 126 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 3: it did, but it was not without controversy. 127 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: It's too hard to get consent from major infrastructure projects, 128 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: for example, for the energy, the roads, the rail the hospitals, 129 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: the schools we need to build. I mean some of 130 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: these even public sector projects, you know, hospitals, schools, tied 131 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: up and consenting processes for months, years at a time. 132 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it should not take six to eight years 133 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: to consent a wind farm in New Zealand, should not 134 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: take ten years to get an extension to a port, 135 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: for example. These are the type of real life examples 136 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: that we're trying to deal with with the RMA, and 137 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: they've unfortunately made New Zealand a far less prosperous place 138 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: than it otherwise can and should be, if. 139 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 2: We get into the weeds a little bit. I liked 140 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: your explanation of the regime on externalities, because that's what 141 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: it comes down to. Hey, if I want to build 142 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: something in my backyard, you know what is it? Can 143 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: you give us that? In plain English? 144 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: Externalities is basically, if I am in a house right now, 145 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 3: and if I decide to build like a coffee roastree. 146 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you're ever lived next to a 147 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: coffee roasty. It smells like coffee being roasted it's actually 148 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 3: it's not a case smell. It's not to everyone's taste. 149 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: I don't mind it, but it's smells. 150 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 4: It smells. 151 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 3: It's not great if you're it's not everyone's taste. So 152 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 3: if I build a coffee roaste on my house, well, 153 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: great for me. I make a lot of money selling 154 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 3: my coffee, especially in Wellington, but not so good for 155 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: my neighbors. They don't make any money from me selling coffee, 156 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: and their houses smell like burnt toast because I build 157 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: a coffee roast tree on my house. 158 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 4: So that's the externality. 159 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 3: The externality is is there is their houses smell like coffee, 160 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: they lose money. 161 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 4: I make money. Not great. 162 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 3: So there's an externality here which basically means that I 163 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 3: will not be able to build a coffee roast try 164 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: on my house. It is a residential My my house 165 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 3: is on a residential zoning, and and and and. 166 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 4: Therefore the sort of. 167 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 3: Old factory pollution that would that would come from my 168 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: my that that that that roastery would not be allowed. 169 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 4: Now, by contrast, if. 170 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: I built a new deck on my house, or if 171 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 3: I if I did other things on my land that 172 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 3: affected my neighbor's not a little bit, not not, not 173 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 3: at all. There is no externality here and there. For 174 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 3: I would, I would have a wider remit within certain 175 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 3: rules to allow that. Obviously, there is still a building code, 176 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 3: I would. You know, there is still that the which 177 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: is covered under under the building X. So you know, 178 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 3: I can't just build something unsafe on my house. 179 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 4: I can't. 180 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 3: I can't build a that would collapse. But but but 181 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: so long as my actions on my own land do 182 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: not affect other people, then then I'm more or less 183 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: allowed to do it. There was there have been some 184 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: cases where where councilors quote their nose into even the 185 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 3: configuration of internal configuration of apartments, not a structural configuration. 186 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 3: This isn't about whether the apartment building would collapse or not, 187 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 3: but it was sort of you know, should your couch 188 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: face this wall a wall, or how you know, stuff 189 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: like that that is that has gone under this new rating. 190 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: So changes to five national directives the RMA have now 191 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: taken effect things that will make it easier to consent 192 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: minds and quarries. For example, then you've got converting your 193 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: garage into a granny flat. Presumably this is kind of 194 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: confusing because when I read up on their RM changes, 195 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: aren't they meant to come in in twenty twenty nine? 196 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: So are these kind of national directives just logistical stuff 197 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: that kind of needs to happen before they start, you know, 198 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: talking about it? 199 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, bit of both. 200 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 3: So Chris Bishop has been as the minister in charge 201 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 3: of this, He's had a multi stage he's called it, 202 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 3: I think multiple tranches of ROMA reform. So while they 203 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 3: are changing the whole RMA that the main law at 204 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: the top of it, they're making tweets to the existing 205 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: regime which will then be ordered over into the new regime. 206 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 3: So these are the national environmental standards and policy standards 207 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 3: that are promulgating now. They are rules regulations that can 208 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: be made by cabinet and agreed by cabinet and then 209 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 3: gazetted and then they become the law of the land. 210 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: They exist their current law and then they can be 211 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 3: adopted on a new law. So as of this week, 212 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: the new Granny Flat rules. So these are detached the 213 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 3: official terminology and read it off the piece of paper 214 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 3: because I always forget it as detached minor residential units 215 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: which I think up to which I think can be 216 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: up to seventy square meters, so sadly not the garage. 217 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: Garage I don't think can be a granny flat, but 218 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: you can put uh what. 219 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 4: If it's detached though, it's a very good question. 220 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 3: You can put a granny flat of up to seventies 221 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 3: square meters on your on your property detached mine and 222 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: residential unit. Residential unit still has to meet certain rules. 223 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 3: Can't be you know, moldy, deadly whatever. You know, there 224 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 3: are still there are still rules around around the houses 225 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 3: and what they can. 226 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 4: Look like. I wilsoy not look like that. 227 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: But exists as but you can now do that as 228 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 3: of as of January this year, which is which is 229 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: which is nice? If that's whatever what you're doing that 230 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: those those rules come under one of these one of 231 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 3: these policy statements which has been gazeated, which means it's 232 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: now the law, and then they get carried over into 233 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 3: the New York so that they are the government is 234 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 3: kind of it's a horrible terminology that every government loves 235 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 3: to use. But they say a rolling mall of initiatives 236 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 3: so that they start here and goes. 237 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: On right, so you can kind of start getting the 238 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 2: benefits of the ROMA reform slowly, but surely I can 239 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 2: go to Bunnings this weekend and get my wood for 240 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: my new goola out the back. But the full effect 241 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: of the law is that kind of twenty twenty nine 242 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: ish date, I suppose. 243 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 4: Yes, there's the whole the. 244 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 3: Yes, the sort of the main pieces of the RAMA, 245 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 3: the big stuff that the new Planning Regime dat all 246 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 3: comes towards the end of the decade, and there are 247 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: a whole lot of other reforms. You know, we haven't 248 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: even talked about the local government reforms. The government wants 249 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: to try and as sort of tactfully pushing a maldimation 250 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: onto councils, trying to get the regional councils and the 251 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: territorial authorities to merge. Those new councils would then be 252 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 3: the ones who are drawing up the plans under the 253 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: new ROMA, which will then implement some of these changes 254 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 3: that we're talking about. So it's like hurting sheep. We've 255 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 3: got all these different things that they're trying to get 256 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: through the game at the same time. But it is 257 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 3: at the end of the decade where where the full 258 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: OROMA does come into force, and of course that it 259 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 3: does require some of these other reforms to take place 260 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 3: in order to actually work. 261 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, because like you said, I mean the goalas and 262 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: the granny flats and the new decking out the back 263 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: is probably small fry as opposed to what the change 264 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: will mean for local councils. Currently, the government says that 265 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: there are somewhere like one thousand, one hundred and seventy 266 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: five different kinds of zones in New Zealand, which with 267 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: them carry all different rules. So what does it mean 268 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 2: when it talks about these zones. 269 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: Yes, so zone it's like a you know, you're in 270 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 3: a residential zone you can build a house, you know, 271 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: residential property or you're like a load nsity or high 272 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 3: dnsity residential zone. Can you build an apartment building here 273 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: or is it just a sort of detached home that 274 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 3: you can build here? There's and the current regime is 275 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: allows a lot of latitude for bespoke zones, which is 276 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: why you get over a thousand of them, which which 277 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 3: a lot of people think is slightly ridiculous. So to councils, 278 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 3: councils have a lot of latitude to do what they 279 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 3: want in that regard. Now, what the changes, not what 280 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: these changes will do is reduce those the number of 281 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: zones down quite radically. 282 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 4: In Japan, I. 283 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: Think they only have thirteen, and the current regime has 284 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 3: a number. With the new regime, part of me has 285 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: a number which will be in the tens. That basically 286 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: means that councils don't really have a choice to to 287 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 3: to use sort of bespoke zoning measures and and basically 288 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: we have to say, well, this is a residential zone 289 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 3: and therefore houses can be built here, and we're not 290 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,479 Speaker 3: we're not going to use zoning to dictate quite specifically 291 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: what kind of houses can go here. People can live here, 292 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 3: you can build a house here. You know, this isn't 293 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 3: the this isn't the blue house with the red draw. 294 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: Zone, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 295 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 3: That's kind of the regime is sort of metastasized into 296 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 3: an overly prescriptive regime, which is why you get more 297 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: than a thousand zones, and the government wants it to 298 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: become a more kind of liberal regime where you have 299 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: fewer zones and giving people who are actually doing the 300 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: building during the planning more lagitude to to sort of 301 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: do what they want within the rules, within the rules. 302 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, for the builders, that's actually, when we're doing our job, 303 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 5: there's not a lot of change in that respect, but 304 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 5: it's actually getting to putting your first nail into the timber. 305 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 5: It takes a long time for some Sometimes you wonder 306 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 5: why it takes so long. It's the paperwork behind the 307 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 5: scenes that will speed it up for the guys and 308 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 5: girls doing the work on the ground. 309 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: So when you talk about the councils then having to 310 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: go ahead and do this kind of work themselves, that's 311 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: that's what we call the spatial plans, right. 312 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 3: Yes, so the spatial planning is there was a focus 313 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 3: of labor regime. Of the labor regime as well. The 314 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 3: spatial planning will ask counsels to look over a thirty 315 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 3: year horizon with what needs to be done in the area. 316 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 3: So you will think, right over the next thirty years, well, 317 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 3: this corridor it's going to be, is going to grow 318 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: and develop. This is sort of an industrial corridor. This 319 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 3: will continue to be industrial, so maybe we will need 320 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 3: to preserve this this this this trunk of land for 321 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 3: a rail line or a large highway to carry all 322 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: the trucks heavy industry. This is a residential This area 323 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 3: is a residential area. It is going to continue to grow, 324 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: it will possibly identify, so we'll need to plan to 325 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 3: over the next thirty years improve the water infrastructure and 326 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 3: the sewage infrastructure. So you know, ten thousand people live 327 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 3: there now, forty thousand people will live there in thirty 328 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: years time, so we need to plan over the next 329 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 3: thirty years to build bigger and better pipes, and to 330 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 3: build a new train station and roads and all that 331 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 3: sort of stuff. So by getting all that planning done 332 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: at the top end, it gives planners over the councilors 333 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: over those thirty years and developers greater confidence to. 334 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 4: Sort of meet the plan. 335 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 3: So you will be able to make these zones under 336 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 3: The councils will then be able to implement the zones 337 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: which will and developers and councils will have confidence that yes, 338 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 3: this is a residential zone. Yes we can densify this zone. 339 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 3: Yes there will be infra structure to deal with with 340 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 3: with with what is coming. New Zealand obviously gets a 341 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 3: bear rep for housing and housing is far too expensive here. 342 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 3: But over the last ten years New Zealand has slowly 343 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 3: moved towards intensification, and particularly in Auckland, there's been a 344 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: lot of quite good in intensification, but one of the 345 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: controversies in Auckland has been that the infrastructure has somewhat lacked. 346 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 3: So you are putting in putting intensification, we're and creating 347 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: traffic champs because all of a sudden, all these people 348 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 3: live all these people are living on a Victorian street 349 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: which was built for a horse and cart and is 350 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 3: now dealing with five hundred uts. That is a disaster 351 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: for the people who live there. And so we're sort 352 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 3: of trying to get better at that now to ensure 353 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 3: that the infrastructure and the development happened concurrently to that 354 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 3: that that dilemma. 355 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: And it would kind of make sense in that spatial 356 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 2: planning process to have a lot less cooks in the kitchen. 357 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: I suppose do you reckon that this is all making 358 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: way for the next kind of wayth of super cities? 359 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 3: Perhaps, yes, certain, certainly, I think I think Wellington there's 360 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: not much super about Wellington. 361 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 4: Wellington. 362 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 3: Wellington seems destined to be malgamated into what into into 363 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 3: something approximating the super city that that Auckland has become. 364 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 3: So the Wellington councils will probably get together in form 365 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 3: one one big council. 366 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, at the moment. 367 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 3: The obviously there is a regional council that sits at 368 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 3: the top of all of the Wellington councils, but there 369 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 3: could be a bit of coordination between them. 370 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 4: You know that to use. 371 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 3: Wellington as an example, Wellington, the Greater Wellington Regional Council 372 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 3: runs the sort of buses and trains and they go 373 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 3: through multiple multiple councils. You know, you can catch a 374 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 3: train from the Wide up to work in Wellington and 375 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 3: you'd go through you'd start and a wider upper council. 376 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: You would then go into one of the hat councils, 377 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 3: and I think some one of the train lines goes 378 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 3: through two of the hop councils before ending in Wellington Council. 379 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 3: So on the train jour need to work, you're passing 380 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 3: through four or five different territorial authorities and the infrastructure 381 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 3: that was on either side of that train line is 382 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 3: is the is the is the purview of those councils, 383 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 3: So you can see that there is an argument to 384 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 3: link that up into one system. So the regional council, 385 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: obviously the technicalogy use the Wellington example, does run that 386 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: is responsible for transport, but the physical infrastructure is often 387 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 3: the responsibility of territorial authorities, so yes, there was an 388 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 3: argument for that. It's probably actually to be fear the 389 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 3: buses involved, sorry, the trains involved Keepy Rail as well, 390 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: so maybe buses is a better example, but anyway, you 391 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 3: get the picture. 392 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: And lastly, Thomas, in terms of sore or this is 393 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: to go to the Select Committee obviously, as you mentioned, 394 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 2: is there anyone adamantly opposed? I mean, I suppose I 395 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: do see a lot of talk about, for instance, making 396 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: way for quarries and consenting minds making it easier. But 397 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: what are the actual chances of, you know, a group 398 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: of a family of endangered frogs being wiped out because 399 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: the consent process is consented to mine or something. 400 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, Shane Jones has no affection for the 401 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 3: New Zealand frogs is a I. 402 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: Know frogs are always my example because of Shane's comments, I. 403 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 3: Think I think it would it would certainly be accurate 404 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 3: to describe the government's reforms in general as being a 405 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 3: shifting the needle more towards development in a way from 406 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 3: environmental protection. So I think the it's a bit of 407 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 3: an evasive answer, but it would depend on those frogs 408 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: individual circumstances, but one would one would imagine that once 409 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 3: this legislation passes, the circumstances would err on the pessimistic side. 410 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Thomas. 411 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 4: No Wors, Thank you for having me. 412 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 413 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 414 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 415 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine. Dicky is 416 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 417 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 2: our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page 418 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts, 419 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.