1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Just Sender Adourn Chris Hipkins won't be showing face at 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID nineteen and now 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: they've decided to shut down the second week of public hearings. 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: Is basically they're no longer justified. Brook van Velden, minister 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: responsible for this inquiry, joins us. Now our good morning. 6 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: Minister, Good morning Ryan. 7 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Can you change the terms of reference to force these 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: guys to turn up? Oh? 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: Look, I'm not changing the terms of reference because it 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: is possible for the Commission to issue a legal summons 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: to them. However, I don't think it's really the fault 12 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: of the Commission that they've been forced into the situation 13 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: of needing to make that decision. It would have been 14 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: much easier if just under our Journ and Chris Hipkins 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: just do the right thing and turned up to the 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: public hearings. And so, you know, while there might be 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: some focus on the commissioners who have been forced into 18 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: this decision, this is really about the fact that Justinder 19 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: Odourn and Chris Hipkins was very willing to stand publicly 20 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: every single day and make huge decisions on people's lives 21 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 2: quite publicly. But are unable to do that or unwilling 22 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 2: to do that. Now, I think that's quite confusing for 23 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: many members of the public who are still feeling the 24 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: effects of the COVID lockdown. 25 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: It is including Richard who says, yeah, I'm completely flabbergasted 26 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: by this. They should be forced to be called as witnesses. 27 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: This is a COVID nineteen Royal commission and inquiry. Why 28 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: doesn't the government force them? You know you could do that, 29 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: couldn't you, Brook? So why not? 30 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: Well, we cannot as the government force their commission to 31 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: do any particular thing. It is an independent inquiry, and 32 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: that's really important because all Royal commissions are independent. My 33 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: belief is that the terms of reference does allow the 34 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: commissioners to use a summons if they would wish. However, 35 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: what they have described in their public minute and in 36 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: conversations with me is the difficulty of you know, the 37 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: terms of reference for this commission is not to try 38 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 2: and find blame or act like a court of law. 39 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: It is to be a fact finding mission to enhance 40 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: public confidence so that we have better plans for the 41 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: future of the pandemic. Ever happened now, The difficulty that 42 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 2: the regis and there I don and crecipns have put 43 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: the commissions in is if they are forced to issue 44 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: legal summons, is then obviously it becomes adversarial and legalistic, 45 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: and I think that's a real shame that they've been 46 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: forced into the situation. 47 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: Which is that this is the problem right elling With 48 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: has said that it is our opinion that the use 49 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: of summons is to achieve their participation into public hearing 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: would be legalistic and adversarial, which our terms of reference prohibit. 51 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: So the problem is the terms of reference. I mean, 52 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: either you want them and it's important for them to 53 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: be the publicly facing up or it's not. 54 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: Well, I think this is really focusing too much on, 55 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: you know, the commissioners and the decision that they're needing 56 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: to land at, Whereas we would never be in this 57 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: situation if they just did what the commission had asked. 58 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 2: And I think the difficulty that the commissioners are in 59 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: is if they are forcing and using a legal summons, 60 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: what is it going to be like in the actual 61 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: public hearing. Is it going to be a fact finding 62 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: mission or is it going to be legalist? Is it 63 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: going to be adversarial? Is it becoming a blame finding 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 2: a mission where the public hearing may not actually get 65 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: what it deserves. And I think that's the real difficulty 66 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: of forcing somebody to appear. Crissipkins really should just do 67 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: the right thing, appear in public like he did every 68 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: single day at the one pm briefings. And I think 69 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: the real question is why is it that they are 70 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: willing to give the commission information in private but not 71 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: in public like they did during the COVID lockdown. 72 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: Brook, appreciate your time this morning. Brook van Velden is 73 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: the Minister in charge of the COVID nineteen inquiry. For 74 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: more from early edition with Ryan Bridge, listen live to 75 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: news Talks. It'd be from five am weekdays, or follow 76 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.