WEBVTT - Marsden Point's potential to be 'world-leading' in sustainable aviation fuels 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.799 Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:16.680 a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Marsden 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:21.680 Point operated as New Zealand's only oil refinery for nearly 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.880 sixty years. At its peak in the eighties, it employed 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.000 around seventeen hundred people. When it was closed in twenty 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.320 twenty two, nearly two hundred and forty people lost their jobs. 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.040 Run by Channel Infrastructure, the site now operates as New 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:45.080 Zealand's largest fuel's import terminal, storing and distributing forty percent 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:49.159 of the country's fuel. In recent weeks, a slew of 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.800 ministers have visited the site, with New Zealand first in 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.960 particular floating the idea of introducing our first Special Economic 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.440 Zone to help pump invent into the site and life 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:07.399 back into the Northland economy. Later, Channel Infrastructure CEO Rob 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.640 Buchanan takes us through the future of Marsden Point, but 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:16.080 first on the front Page, Massy University Emeritus Professor of 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.959 Sustainable Energy and Climate Mitigation Ralph Simms joins us to 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:30.440 discuss the site's past and potential. First off, Ralph pretend 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.360 I've never heard of Marsden Point before. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:35.280 Can you tell me what is it? 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:36.080 Right? 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.560 Well, Marsden Point is an oil refinery located up in 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:46.560 Northland and it was established in nineteen sixty four because 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:52.440 we were bringing petrol and diesel into New Zealand already refined, 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.800 thought it was cheaper have we brought in crude oil 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:00.160 and then produced our own fuel products and that worked well. 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:05.640 For quite some time we were producing maybe half of 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:10.720 New Zealand's demands of petrol, diesel and aviation fuel. A 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:15.840 refinery takes crude oil, which is a very complex chemical 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.000 if you like, and it varies from place to place, 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:24.320 so a refinery breaks it down into useful products and petrol. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:25.919 Diesel the obvious ones. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:32.160 Aviation fuel, jet fuel is called also kerosene, other products 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:36.520 chemical use as well, and also bitchamin is this stuff 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.360 left over which of course we seal our roads with, 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.840 so that all comes from an oil refinery. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.760 And so it hasn't been used as a refinery of 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.720 course since it closed down in twenty twenty two. In 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:54.920 the mid nineteen eighties, though, the refinery substantially expanded and 0:02:55.000 --> 0:03:00.920 upgraded to allow for increased production. Extra tanksity supplies and 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.079 environmental treatment units were added. Along with a one hundred 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.680 and seventy kilometer Marsden Point to Auckland pipeline. Now it's 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.679 safe to say, hey, that the eighties were really its 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:12.480 boom time. 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.880 That's right, because it was expanded. A hydrocracker was installed, 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.600 which was quite innovative at the time to get more 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.840 diesel out of a barrel of oil. You can only 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.400 get so much petrol, so much diesel, so much of 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.280 the other products, and the hydrocracker was to say, let's 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:34.720 get more diesel out because of our diesel demand, agricultural demands, trucks, etc. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.640 So this was a project. It was owned by the 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.280 New Zealand refining companies. It was Shell that the oil 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.680 company that first thought about it, and then they went 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.320 into partnership with all the other oil companies in New 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.680 Zealand and set up the business. And so then they 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.600 thought they'd expand and then mister Muldoon came along with 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.000 his think big project, so he thought that was a 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:04.360 good idea. Through money at it and then it took five. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.320 Six years nineteen eighty six. 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.760 It finally opened because there were strikes and there were 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.800 delays and there was over a budget, and then eventually 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.279 the government did a secret deal with the oil companies 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.960 to buy it to pay for all the changes that 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.640 had occurred, and that meant that we were then able 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:29.359 to produce about seventy percent of our total fuel demand. 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.080 We were still importing Sundays or some In course in 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.760 the nineteen seventies there were the oil shocks. 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:38.480 Around the world and we were having. 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.360 Carliss days and rationing diesel, etc. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.760 Because there just simply wasn't enough that the. 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.080 Refinery could produce because of the oil supply, but also 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.960 buying imported products, and so that was another reason to 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.800 give it a boost in the eighties. Interestingly, New Zealand 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.440 by that time was exploring and producing oil and gas. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:05.240 Oil was what's called a light sweet crude and it 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:10.760 didn't match the refinery processing characteristics. Most of our crude 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.040 oil that we extracted was sent off to a refinery 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.760 in Australia and we were producing we were importing this 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.920 medium sour crude from other parts of the world, Saudi 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:27.120 Arabia and United Arab Emirates and wherever, and so that 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.080 was unfortunate really because we were still relying on imported 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.520 product and a small percentage, very small percentage of our 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.880 our own crude oil would be blended in with the 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.560 imported stuff, but not enough to make us self sufficient. 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:49.120 Right over withster Peters. That from the person who agreed 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.560 secretly to close down one of the three big industries 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.160 in this country, namely Marson Point. Never told the workers, 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.880 never told the unions, never told anybody up north, No 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:04.000 COVID it did And she laughs this critical componatory, she 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.640 laughs about this accused of me going secretly to the 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.919 Prime minister. No, all twenty cabinet ministers were required to 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.040 write to the Primise with their ideas. That's what I did. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.159 So don't believe the media crap and hype that somehow 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.719 we did something special and there isn't appalling their debuty 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:21.960 prime Minister has been caught talking to the Prime Minister. 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:27.920 Only Labor could think there's something wrong. 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.680 Looking back, do you think that there were any missed 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:39.240 opportunities to integrate I guess more sustainable practices into Marsden 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.040 Points refining activities. 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.640 Yes, well, there was a lot of debated discussion about 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:50.400 exactly what production it should achieve from an economic sustainability 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.080 point of view. If we'd have gone to one hundred 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:58.599 percent refining and if anything had gone wrong then that 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:03.960 would have been a risk. The economic balance, as I 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.560 understand it, was that we would produce two thirds or 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.400 so of our own fuels, but still have some reliance 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.360 on imported fuels, which gives some flexibility reduces the risk. 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.800 I guess that was the main reason for not going 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:24.000 to a full large refinery. But of course that was 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.400 one of the reasons why it did close down in 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:32.200 twenty twenty two, because it's a relatively small refinery on 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:37.400 a global basis, and the cost of oil shipping it's 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.120 a long way to come, and the value of the 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.400 products was such that it was actually thought cheaper to 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:52.080 import refined products from Singapore and other Asian countries rather 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.560 than carry on with refining here. And of course by 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.440 that time it was some of it was forty to 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:04.840 fifty year years old, and these chemical engineering production processes 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:11.440 equipment doesn't last forever, so there was quite a maintenance 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.320 operation going on. So in the end, from an economic 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:20.320 sustainability point of view, they decided maybe we would shut 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:28.280 it down and import refined products. And that's another issue, 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:33.080 because it was decided not to mothball the plant, which 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.360 means to sort of shut it down, but put grease 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.920 on it and paint it and protect it so that 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.320 it could be used again. It was just decommissioned. It 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.120 was just shut down and that was it. So parts 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.199 of it have gone rusty and parts of it have 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.480 been sold off, and there's more other bits that are 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.440 possibly going to be sold from what I understand how 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.920 the government, I think Minister Shane Jones has been thinking 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:04.280 of re commissioning the refinery, but it would be very 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.760 difficult and very expensive to do, so there has been 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:13.480 a report to assess whether that's feasible or not. The 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.600 idea of being that in this day and age, with 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:20.560 all the geopolitical unrest and such like, we would have 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.760 more security if we produced more of our own fuels, 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:31.720 but that's unlikely to happen, I think. I think to 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.480 the cost it would be billions of dollars to renovate it. 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.240 In terms of the chat about making the area of 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.160 Marsden Point a special economic zone, how does that sit 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:45.080 with you, Ralph? 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.560 Yeah, well, again it's the company that's come up with 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.599 this concept and Minister Shane Jones has said, oh, this 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.280 could be a good idea, so he's got involved there 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:59.080 a bit to what decree, I don't know, but basically 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.920 it's saying, well, we've got all these resources, all these facilities, 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.240 how can we best utilize them? And so extra storage 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.960 is one they've talked about producing green hydrogen, which is 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:16.840 different hydrogen that comes from methane from natural gas, releases 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.640 emissions into the atmosphere carbon dioxide as part of the 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:24.000 producing hydrogen. Whereas green hydrogen, if you've got renewable electricity 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.800 to electrolyze the water and produce the hydrogen, then there's 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:33.080 no carbon emissions coming from that. They've there's a possibility 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:39.240 of doing that. Hydrogen as a fuel is debatable in 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.800 many ways at the moment, whether it be for cars 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:47.920 or trucks or planes. Technically possible, but is it energy 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:52.079 efficient to use all that electricity to produce hydrogen, store 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.480 the hydrogen to turn the hydrogen back into electricity, or 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.920 maybe use electricity directly for a car Obviously idiots makes 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.000 more sense than for an aeroplane, but green hydrogen is 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:07.800 a possible product that they could use. They could also 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:14.199 produce biofuels, their liquid fuels that could replace spetrol and diesel. 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:20.479 The IATA, the International Air Transport Association of All Airlines. 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.000 Air New Zealand being a strong member, has from some 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:29.040 years looked at sustainable aviation fuels and they've been analyzing 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.559 this to a great degree. United Era of Emirates I've 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:33.720 been involved with a little bit and they've been very 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.559 strongly supporting this and advocating for the concept, even though 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.720 they produce oil themselves. The IARTA have got nine different 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.960 technologies that they can that they've approved in order to 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:50.480 make these jetpul and one of them is through using 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:51.280 green hydrogen. 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:53.479 Another one, which. 0:11:54.960 --> 0:12:00.560 Channel Infrastructure is now looking at in association with Zealand 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:05.520 and Scion, which was Forest Research Institute, is to convert 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:09.680 woody biomass waste from the forest, so you take out 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.400 the logs and then you're left with all the slash, 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:16.360 which is quite controversial at the moment and in Sweden 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.600 and the Austriaan whatever. And I've been advocating here for 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.320 many years too. We should be using that to chip 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:23.319 it up and turn. 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.120 It into heat and power. We can turn it into. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.679 Electricity and it's very viable and it makes good sense 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:31.599 and it's low carbon. 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.959 But it's expensive though. Ralph is that where the special 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.520 economic zone can come in, we can get some overseas 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.280 investors in to invest in things like that. 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:42.520 That's exactly right. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.280 I mean it's been done for heat and power for 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.240 decades in many countries, so it's not expensive. 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:52.160 If you've got the system in place, it can be competitive. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.880 But if you've got going to sustainable aviation fuels, it's 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.720 a bigger process. It's a refining process, if you like, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.920 of the woody biomass into liquid biofuels. And that's where 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:08.480 the economic zone could attract these investors for sure, which 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.040 of course is what government's got in mind as being 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.960 a good incentive to do so. And so the process 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.040 there or lansa Tech is a company which is involved, 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:23.240 which was originated in New Zealand some twenty years or 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.760 more ago from a PhD study which was looking at 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.600 bacteria to take emissions from steel mills and turn them 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.400 into ethanol, which is a liquid fuel. 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.320 You can run petrol cars on ethanol. 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:40.200 And that developed into a company and then that went international. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.160 They've still got a research office in Auckland. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.360 It was New Zealand innovation at its best and they 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.920 are now looking at jet fuels as a subsidiary company 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:56.160 of Lanthotech and Scion's been looking at producing ethanol from 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.640 woody biomass for decades and it's not I mean, when 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:06.959 I was producing biodiesel in nineteen seventies, Forest Research Institute 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.920 was looking at ethanol from woodchips and after twenty or 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.560 thirty years they sort of gave up. So it is 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:16.960 a challenge, but there's more development going on now. So 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:23.480 this is where this consortium is thinking that ideally Marsden 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:29.720 Point could be a world's leading center for producing sustainable 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:34.200 aviation fuels. What the volume is that they can produce 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:39.400 is probably enough for New Zealand, but on a global capacity, 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:45.240 it's a real challenge through substitute avgas aviation fuel for 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:47.640 sustainable aviation fuels. 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.480 But it's technically possible to do. 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.160 And even you can term municipal solid waste instead of 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.920 going into a landfill, you can turn that into sustainable 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:01.280 fuels as well. So there's great hope, great potential there, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.480 but there is a challenge a on the chemistry beyond 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:10.280 the costs. See on having a regular supply, where would 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.600 all the wood chips come from? How do they get 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.840 to the refinery? Coastal shipping might be the answer to 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.480 that and rail as well that they've got to be 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:23.520 delivered there in large volumes, but it's certainly worth looking at. 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:35.080 Thanks for joining us, Ralph. The privately owned Marsden Point 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:39.320 was New Zealand's only fuel refinery until it was decommissioned 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.400 in twenty twenty two to become an import only fuel 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.480 terminal under the name Channel Infrastructure. CEO Rob Buchanan is 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:55.480 with us now to take us through what the future holds. Rob, 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.840 how much fuel flows through Marsden Point at the moment 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:00.960 and where does it all go? 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:06.400 Yeah, so it's around three billion or over three billion 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.600 liters a year of fuel that goes through the Marsten 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.720 Point import terminal system. And just to give you a 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:19.840 thumbnail sketch of how that works, our customers earth ships 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:24.600 at Marsden Point where their product is stored either petro 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.280 diesel and jet and a significant number of tanks that 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.880 we've got back three hundred million liters of storage on site. 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:36.160 Most product is ship down the pipeline to Auckland where 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.800 it is then distributed either to the Auckland and why 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.440 Cano region or in the case of jet, direct to 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.240 Auckland Airport and a small amounts are taken off at 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.240 our site to truckloading facility for distribution into Northland. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:55.160 How might Marsden Point adapt towards I suppose a renewable 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.760 energy or sustainability in the future. 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.760 Great question. So there's a couple of things there. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.200 I think the first for us is, you know, we 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:09.439 think that the future for decarbonization of aviation is sustainable 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.639 aviation fuel, which is dropping, which is to say that 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.960 it can flow through our infrastructure today. So as then 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:24.120 industry transitions from fossil jets to sustainable aviation fuel over 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.280 the next twenty thirty years, you know that product can 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.199 come straight through the masson Point I Bort terminal system 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:34.119 like it can today. One of the unique features of 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.840 our location and master point, and actually it's function in 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:42.320 our history, is we've got a very large landholding which 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.879 is consented for at least the next thirty five years 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:51.560 anyway for fuels manufacture. And so one of the significant 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.959 opportunities that we're exploring is renewable fuels manufacture on our 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:56.600 site as. 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.560 Well and all the infrastructures there for that. Or do 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:04.240 you need significant investment from government or say elsewhere under 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.320 a special economic zone, say. 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.080 Well, to be clear, we're not looking for investment from government, 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:14.600 so just to put that one to bead, but otherwise 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.439 the answer is yes to both. So yes, there is 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:22.639 a significant amount of infrastructure there by virtue of a 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:28.200 range of decommissioned refinery assets and refined product tanks which 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.440 are available for fuel storage and then the pipeline which 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.840 can ship that product to Auckland or indeed the gen 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.000 where it can be put into a boat and distributed elsewhere. 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.679 But also there is a significant amount of investment that 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:48.480 would be required by our partners ultimately to bring renewable 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.879 fuels manufacture to master points. So one of the projects 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.800 that we're working on with a consortium of international investors 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.679 is indeed repurposing some of the old refinery assets for 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:01.520 bio fuels production in New Zealand. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:03.720 What's the goal with that? 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.800 So when we talk about biofuels, what would that then 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:07.760 be used for? 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.959 Yeah, So in relation to that particular project, in particular, 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:18.800 the main areas of focus renewable diesel or an alternative 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:23.280 to diesel, and obviously sustainable aviation fuel And just to 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.320 speak to both of those clearly, there is a pathway 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:33.640 for decarbonization of light transport and evs and adoption will 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.840 go up and down over time, but ultimately you know 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:41.359 that pathway is there. I think that the pathway for 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:45.560 heavy transport. And if you think about tractors on farms 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:51.600 getting milk from remote locations in New Zealand to manufacturing sites, 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.080 getting our products to export markets and getting them in 0:19:55.119 --> 0:20:00.520 a boat and shipping them overseas, that's where renew diesel 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.720 is an opportunity to decarbonize that particular part of the 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.479 supply chain. The opportunity and aviation, as I spoke to before, 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:09.840 is sustainable aviation fuel. 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.719 In terms of sustainable aviation fuel, though, does the whole 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.520 world have to get on board for it to work? 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:21.040 Well, that's actually a great question. And so you know 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.639 that the most important point about sustainable aviation fuel is 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:28.960 that it's dropping. So where it wouldn't work is if 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:33.919 we couldn't use that fuel an existing jet turbine technology today. 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:37.080 So you know the most important thing is that it's dropping. 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.159 You can blend it with jet today and it can 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.520 go straight into the aircraft that any Zealand for example, 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.399 is fly around New Zealand or overseas, and so that 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.440 means that we don't have to wait for technology changes 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.920 at aircraft level, which I think, let's space, it would 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.520 take decades. We can actually get into the piece of 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:06.280 work now, and various countries are taking different or making 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:10.760 that adoption at different speeds. Certainly, you know Europe is 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:14.639 going faster than many other places. But actually some of 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:19.360 the major trading partners in Asia have sustainble aviation fuel 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:21.119 targets as well, like Japan. 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.879 And why isn't it happening you know, tomorrow then? Or 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:26.800 does it cost a lot of money? I know that 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:31.520 the recommissioning project was costed out at about four point 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.720 nine billion to seven point three billion. That was if 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:39.120 we made Marsden Point an oil refinery against say, obviously 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:41.719 that's a pipe dream, and that's probably are you are 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.359 you confident to say that that's actually never going to happen. 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:48.240 Yeah, Well, I think the government a significant piece of 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.359 work on the recommissioning of the refinery and found that 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:55.879 it was infeasible ultimately, so you know, it was permanently 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:59.720 decommissioned and our position hasn't changed on that. I think 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.479 that's the same aviation fuel piece. I probably distinguished between 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.520 the opportunity to manufacture it and onw Zealand at Master Point, 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.679 which we think is a fantastic opportunity, and the fact 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:12.960 that it can actually be brought into New Zealand by 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:16.520 a boat today and distribute it through our supply chain. 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:20.120 But you've landed on one of the key issues for adoption. 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.480 There's nothing cheap about decarbanization. We've seen it in the 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:29.679 electricity sector and that transition to renewal electricity. 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:30.760 And the impact that that's hand. 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:35.240 On electricity prices, and it's the same with the same 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:41.320 aviation fuel. It's as that technology gains traction and increasing 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:44.119 scale is built around the world and the manufacturer of 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:47.320 the sable aviation fuel, then the costs can come down. 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:52.520 But right now it's significantly more expensive than fossil jet today, 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:57.119 so the impact on is ultimately born by airlines or 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.280 customers for making that choice around substitution in between fossil 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:03.600 jets and statele aviation field. 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:12.960 Our investigating the re establishment of Marsden Point refinery. Sadly 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:18.240 we are left to gather the results of an awful 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:23.159 decision made over the last two years, and it's driven 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:28.000 served by a mixture of wokeism, a mixture of naivety 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:34.640 and an unwillingness to accept with our gas, with our fuel, 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:39.000 the nation will collapse. With New Zealand first in charge 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:42.840 of such an initiative, our resilience will prosper. 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:49.119 What's the future look like for Marsden Point, say in 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:52.560 the next ten years and then twenty years and so forth. 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.120 Yeah, Well, we put out I think, as you know, 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:59.320 the Marten Point Energy Precinct, which is our vision the 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:04.720 future at that site, and I'd summarize to you it 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:06.880 in a couple of ways. You know, we see it 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.720 as over the next ten to fifteen years as a 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:14.200 massive opportunity for energy security for New Zealand. And by 0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:17.439 that I mean we've got the ability to store more fuel, 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:22.119 we've got the bility to manufacture biofuels at Marston Point, 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:26.520 noting that the feedstock for biofuels is domestic, so we 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:33.240 aren't subject to the geopolitical risks that come with international shipping. 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:37.760 And we are also working on some energy firming opportunities 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:41.280 as well, like peak electricity peaking and the like, And 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:45.399 so we think it's a real opportunity for an energy security. 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:46.679 Play in New for New Zealand. 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:50.919 In a world which is quickly becoming more geopolitically contested, 0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:54.959 and we think it's a massive opportunity for Northland if 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:57.320 the Energy Precinct is built out. Just to how we 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:00.560 think it could be over the next ten, fifteen, twenty years, 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:05.080 it's twenty thousand construction jobs, it's twelve hundred jobs on 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:07.800 an ongoing basis, it's a quarter of a billion dollars 0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:12.800 contribution to New zealergyp. You know, it's a massive opportunity 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:15.480 for New ZEALANDIC And if you think about some of 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:19.359 the the industrialization they were seeing around us with manufacturing 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:23.920 closing high energy prices, we've got the opportunity and to 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:26.480 lean into solving a couple of those things with the 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:27.360 Energy Precinct. 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:30.560 And in order for all of those things to happen seamlessly, 0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:33.640 do we need a special Economic Zone? 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:38.119 Well, I think the SEZ, which you know the Associate 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:43.639 Minister for Energy announced back in February as something that 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:48.240 government was considering, is I think something that would speed 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:52.360 up the development of the Energy Precinct. So when we 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:57.680 talk to international investors and international capital providers, you know 0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:00.760 they've got the choice to put the capital and their 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:04.760 IP and many locations around the world. We think master 0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:09.960 points particularly unique location, but that especially kind of like 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:11.280 zone provides that. 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:16.320 Long term government endorsement or this being a place. 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:22.240 For energy security type projects, that international investors can feel 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:26.719 comfortable and safe about deploying capital into this area and 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:30.760 recovering that capital and returns which are very long dated. 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:37.080 And is anything happening at all? Our ministers just flocking 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:40.280 to Marsden Point to have a look around all of 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:43.720 a sudden, You've had three in the last few weeks. 0:26:46.800 --> 0:26:48.800 Yeah, Look, we've got stuff happening right now. 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:51.240 So we're in the process of building what will be 0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:55.440