1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Yoda. 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 2: The Front Page, the Enzid Herald's daily news podcast. While 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 2: the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: look back at some of the biggest news stories and 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 2: top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four. 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: New episodes will return on January thirteenth. For over fifty. 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 3: Years, the secretive Christian community of Gloria Vale has fascinated 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 3: New Zealanders. While the community has long been discussed by 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 3: former members who have left Gloria Vale behind, in the 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: last few years, multiple official investigations and employment court proceedings 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 3: have shone more light on what's happening behind the scenes. 13 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 3: In March, a new TV and Z documentary Escaping Utopia premiered, 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 3: looking back at the community's check in history and its 15 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: recent problems. We spoke with co director Justin Pemberton, who 16 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 3: explained his fresh look at historic concerns. Justin, can you 17 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 3: start by telling us how exactly did you come up 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 3: with the name of the series. 19 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: Well, it relates really to the idea that people born 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: inside Glory Vale are told that they are living in 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: the utopian vision on Earth, that this is the place 22 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: God wants them, This is the place. 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 4: That they will be saved. 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: If they ever leave here, they'll be damning themselves to 25 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: a term oblamnation. So what was really interesting for me 26 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: was this idea that when you're born into this community, 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: you don't even realize that you're living in a very strange, 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: very alternative. 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 5: Way of life. 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: And as they grow up they have to start different 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: people put things together and start questioning and start looking 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: at the outside world and realize just how strange the 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: way they love is. And then that journey that comes 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: for some people that the idea that I don't like 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: it here, I'm not living here. I want to be 36 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: out there, So they have to, you know, find a 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: way to escape essentially. And what's so sort of traumatic 38 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: is that when you leave Glorabille, they have this rule 39 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: that you basically had cut off. You're not allowed to 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: have any contact evering in with your family. So you 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: feel born there. This is everybody you know, this is 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: your entire world. Every single person you know in the 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: world is going to be cut off from you. So 44 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, So that escaping utopia concept is putting 45 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: it all together and realizing that that this is not 46 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: what you've been told, and that you are going to 47 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: sacrifice everything to leave. 48 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 6: What ye's newspaper to start the fire. It was the 49 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 6: only inside into the outside. 50 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: Rule or something that caught my eye, or just rip 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: it out. 52 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 7: Once they figured out that the girls were doing that, 53 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 7: they put somebody on checking the newspaper. 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 6: And they'd literally cut out anything that they didn't want 55 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 6: us to see. 56 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 7: Can you run me through some of the recent legal 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 7: woes that have been faced by Gloria Bell and that 58 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 7: get covered in your series. 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: The court case that was playing out while we were filming, 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: which we follow was the employment case that a group 61 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: of women who are leaders who have left took against 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: the crown. 63 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 5: And the immunity. 64 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: They were arguing and have successfully as you find out 65 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: as the serious continues. They argued that they were employees, 66 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: they weren't volunteers. 67 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 4: Some of them claim they were slaves. 68 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: Essentially, they were told what to do, they were made 69 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: to do a particular kind of work, they weren't allowed 70 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: to choose or have any other option, and. 71 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 5: Then wed, which is all part of the trap. 72 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: You know, the idea that you don't own anything, that 73 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: you don't have any money, you don't have anything, you 74 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: don't have any any means of leaving, You don't have 75 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: anything to leave with, which is one of the ways 76 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: that you get trapped. 77 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 5: So the court case that we follow. 78 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: Through the series is the journey of the women who 79 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: are taking Glorobale and the crown to coord What's particularly 80 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: interesting for me was the actually was the ability that 81 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: the court case there was the ability to hear from 82 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: the women on the inside who are who do claim 83 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: that they are happy, that they do want this world, 84 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: that this is their choice. Actually, interestingly, they don't always 85 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: claim they are happy. Most of them on the standards 86 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: say that they had struggled a lot, but they eventually 87 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: came to accept, with the guidance of the leaders, that 88 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: this was where they needed to be and this is 89 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: what God wanted for them, and that they were sacrificing 90 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: happiness and their individuality and their own dreams to serve God. 91 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: So that's the court case that we find of courses, 92 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: but there are a lot of court cases going on, 93 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: and a lot of them revolve around sexual abuse as well, 94 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: and we cover that and other ways in the series, 95 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: and we talk to people about their experiences, but we 96 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: didn't actually follow those court cases, and then just as 97 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: we were wrapping. 98 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 5: Up filming, the new leader. 99 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: Who took over from Hopeful Christian was charged with some 100 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: the sexual abuse charges as well. 101 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 7: I think what we all found fascinating about that particular 102 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 7: employment case, right was speaking listening to those twenty odd 103 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 7: women who actually came out in support of Gloria Vale. 104 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 7: And it's not often that we hear from them, I guess, 105 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 7: and it's incredible to see that in the series. I 106 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 7: was five years old when I gave my heart to 107 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 7: the Lord. 108 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 6: I then chose to live a life there was to 109 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 6: deny myself and give my life for God in this church. Downtrodden, subdued, repressed, powerless, oppressed, 110 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 6: grain washed. These words are not at all what I 111 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 6: get treated like and either have felt as a woman 112 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 6: living in Gloria Belle. 113 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 7: What was the motivation behind creating this documentary? 114 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 5: Now? 115 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 7: Was it because of those court cases? Or is it 116 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 7: something that you've been working on for a week while? So? 117 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 5: I think was we Hopeful Christian died? 118 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 4: Who was the founder of Brought About? 119 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: We founded it in the early seventies mine sixty nine. 120 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: Depending on what day people choose, is the actual beginning 121 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: of it. He died in twenty eighteen, and at that 122 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: point me and Natalie, who was the producer and the 123 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: code director of the series, were finishing up one off 124 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: docudrama on the Center Point Holt and it just really 125 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: sort of struck us that what's going to happen now? 126 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: You know, like in Center Point, Burt Cotta didn't die, 127 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: he ended up going to prison, and the place eventually imploded. 128 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: Gloravale's leader held it together for over fifty years and 129 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: then died. He had left a succession plan, So that 130 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: was twenty eighteen, So thinking about it, they didn't. 131 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 5: Get funded until I think twenty twenty two. 132 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: By the time we actually were getting into production nearly 133 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: mid twenty twenty two, and at that point there had 134 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: been quite a few court cases and you could get 135 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: a sense that the place was imploding. It's very much 136 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: a live story. It isn't something that has resolved. It's 137 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: not clear what's going to happen. 138 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 5: But also we looked through you looked of all the 139 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 5: material that have been done. 140 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you feel like it's been a lot made 141 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: about Gloravale, but nothing really seemed to trace the beginning 142 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: of the community. You know, the origins of it right 143 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: through to where it ends out. And for me, that's 144 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,559 Speaker 1: the fascinating thing is to track that journey. In some ways, 145 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: they did have some utopian ideas at the beginning, you know, 146 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: were there were people get seduced by an ideology and 147 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: hopeful Christian was talking about sharing communities, a compassionate way 148 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 1: of life, you know, rejecting individualism and the commercialized world 149 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: that was starting to appear in the early seventies, and 150 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: a lot of these people were happies and travelers and 151 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: people were wanting an alternative way of life. That's so 152 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: interesting to see that beginning. And you know, they were 153 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: doing things like they were doing finding old cars in 154 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: the community and doing them up and making them run 155 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: them and gifting them to people, you know, in the 156 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: community who didn't have things, and there was something quite 157 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: generous and appealing, I think. But as the group evolved, 158 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: this sort of charismatic leader becomes very cult like, very controlling, 159 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: and starts indulging himself and creating rules that you know, 160 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: really are just to cement his authority, his power and 161 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: his control over everybody, and there blows astray. What's something 162 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: that glory about to me. I think it was also 163 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: the fact that they cut themselves off from the world 164 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: at that time in the early seventies, and they attract 165 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: the frozen in that kind of time and the rest 166 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: of us, the rest of the world has moved on, 167 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: and they're so out of step with contemporary thinking. 168 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,479 Speaker 5: And that's whether that's about. 169 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: Gender roles, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, physical punishment, even food, 170 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, even their diet. 171 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 4: You know, there's very much. 172 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 5: Back in that early seventies kind of period. 173 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 7: Gloria Olle has obviously been a point of fascination and 174 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 7: speculation for some decades now amongst New Zealanders. I think 175 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 7: it's an interesting point you make as well, that this 176 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 7: is a New Zealand's dirty secret. People don't really like 177 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 7: talking about glory of Owe, maybe in a sense of 178 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 7: people on the outside thinking, well, how did everyone let 179 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 7: this continue and go on and snowball into what it 180 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 7: is today? 181 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you're right. 182 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: I think it turns into a bit of a early 183 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: secret around the time that hopeful Christian goes to prison 184 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: in the early nineties for sexual abuse and doesn't serve 185 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: his full time somehow, which we've not been able to 186 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: find any real satisfactory explanation for why his sentence was 187 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: so dramatically reduced from five years to eighteen months and 188 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: then is released back into the community where he was 189 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: the abuser and where he is in charge. It's extraordinary. 190 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't quite believe this happened. And you know, 191 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: the authorities, the media, the public. I mean, all it 192 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: plays out and it's not kind of challenged or stopped. 193 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 5: You know. 194 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: I think there were probation offices that were visiting, but 195 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: he befriended them. He's charismatic, right, so he would invite 196 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: them to lunch and that put on a show and 197 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: everyone goes, oh, well, there's nothing to see here. And actually, 198 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: what we now know is he wasn't the only offender. 199 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't just he was teaching this offending, and it 200 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: had become endemic and generational, you know, where young boys 201 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: were abused and then grew up to become the abusers. 202 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 8: I had sexually abusive things happened to me in times past. 203 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 8: To protect my children from that sort of thing happening 204 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 8: to them, the best and safest way to protect them 205 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 8: would be to leave. 206 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: It's really quite surprising that this was able to just 207 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: be left like this. Part of it, of course, was 208 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: that he moved them way out into the most remote 209 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: parts of the West Coast where you know, there's no 210 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: neighbors that are within any kind of walking distance, there's 211 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: no cell phone coverage. They are cut off from the media, 212 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: so they are put off, but also sort of out 213 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: of mind, out of sight. 214 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 5: So it's taken a long time for the. 215 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: Dirty secret, the under barrier of Gloria Belle to really 216 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: come out. 217 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 4: And it is the bravery and the courage of the 218 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 4: people who have left. They're inspiring. 219 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: You know, That's the big thing that for me, it's 220 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: not a tragic story ultimately because the people some of 221 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: these people and the people in the series, and the 222 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: people who tell their stories, they are inspiring and I 223 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: think you will feel inspired live. 224 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 225 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 7: One of those people is Pilgrim Christian. He's actually the 226 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,599 Speaker 7: son of the Glory of our founder. It opens with 227 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 7: driving to the commune late at night and we'll see 228 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 7: him going into the property distributing anti cult leaflets. I mean, 229 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 7: that must take an incredible amount of bravery for him 230 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 7: to do that, especially growing up the way he did. 231 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 7: Were you surprised that you were just able to drive 232 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 7: on to the property. I guess a lot of New 233 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 7: Zealanders might think that it's just high gates and barking 234 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 7: dogs and things like that. 235 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is brave, and he is brave, 236 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: and he is and now he is conflicted as well. 237 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: At different times He's found different ways about how the 238 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: best to interact. He still has family living in there, 239 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: and family that he wants to have a good relationship with, 240 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: particularly his children. His ex wife is still I think 241 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: actually she might still be his wife that's separated, she's 242 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: still there and ultimately I know that he has hoped 243 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: for reconciliation and to have the whole family together would 244 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: be a dream. But on the outside, but on the 245 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: other part of that Christiania, in terms of being able 246 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: to just drive her, I mean, there's an intimidating place. 247 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: I don't think it's not a place that I would 248 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: feel comfortable to driving up. It's down a long road 249 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: where there is nothing else at the end of this road, 250 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: but this community. 251 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 5: You'll see it on Google. 252 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: Maps, you know, as a road, but it is at 253 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: some point it does turn into their road. 254 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 5: I believe they have taken control of that road. So 255 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 5: me and. 256 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: Natalie, co director and producer of it. We did go 257 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: to Glory about ourselves. We drove to drive during the day. 258 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: We drove in to go and talk to them and 259 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: talk to them about what we're doing and talking about 260 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: what kind of involvement, if any, they might be comfortable 261 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: playing in it. And we had a tour and ad 262 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: a look around. We met Howard, the current leader, and 263 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: it does feel I don't know, you know, it's hard 264 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: to separate, you know, because it's a place that has 265 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: become almost mythical in the New Zealand store now and 266 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: we've all seen it, we've seen what it looks like. 267 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: But then when you're there, it did feel a little. 268 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: Bit like, you know, going somewhere for me that felt 269 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: repressive and you know, a. 270 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 5: Place that's under some sort of thought police. 271 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: It felt scary. But you know, he was Howard was 272 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: very free man. He showed us around and you know, 273 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: we saw some young girls waking in the kitchen and 274 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: saw the extent of just how big the commercialized sort 275 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: of the nature of it. You know, like the kitchen 276 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: is huge, you know, and there's big vats. People were 277 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: making butter and cheese, and there was some mints being made. 278 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: I think it was probably for the evening meal. It 279 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: was quite remarkable to walk around and experience it. He 280 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: then they then did decline to directly be involved in 281 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: the series, not sped away. He said he had to 282 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: talk to the men and he would get back to us. 283 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 7: And you mentioned how people actually escape from the communit 284 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 7: and there's a bit of a clandestine operation going on there. 285 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 7: Were you surprised at how kind of organized that aspect 286 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 7: of it was, hopefully? 287 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: I mean that's the other thing that is so interesting 288 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: is that there is an underground network. We do not 289 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: at the door of our leaders trust, but you know 290 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: they're in Timuru, but they have a network. 291 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 4: So there are people nearby. 292 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: Marcus who you need in episode one and we'll see 293 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: him again through the series. 294 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 4: He is one of the nearest farmers and. 295 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: He is known as a sort of a farm that 296 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: you can that you can escape to and go up 297 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: his drive and knock on his law and ask for help. 298 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 8: I don't think I ever started to think I needed 299 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 8: to help someone leave. 300 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: I just wanted to work with the ones that were 301 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: asking for help, and if they come knocking on my 302 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: or I need to help them. So if you're going 303 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: to leave, you need this group of people, an underground 304 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: network to catch you and then patch up any wounds 305 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: you've got trying to escape. But people are very scared, 306 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: you know, because once people know that you're thinking of leaving, 307 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: and once the secret's out, you get targeted. 308 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: And there's stories of people going through. 309 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: Such incredible psychological abuse and also having privileges removed, and 310 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, the family being turned against them. You know, 311 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: they certainly don't want people to leave. So even that 312 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: aspect of her it feels you know, people try to 313 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: escape East Germany, you know, it has that sense of 314 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: it and bone drops at night and stuff like that. 315 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: That community is in a very transitional phase right now, 316 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: so who knows where it's going and what's going to happen. 317 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: There are lots of court cases that potentially are going 318 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: to challenge them of their wealth. 319 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 4: There is the current leader. 320 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: Who's currently got charges against them as well, sexual abuse charges. 321 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 5: So there is. 322 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: Another leader that hopeful Christian already has he I mean, 323 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: he had a succession plan, so not only did he 324 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: have Howard, he's also got already pre chosen the one 325 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: that comes after Howard, And I think that's the other 326 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: really interesting thing for me. I mean, to a point, 327 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: you could argue that everybody there is a victim who's 328 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: been indoctrinated from hopeful Christian and they're still trying to 329 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: carry out hopeful Christian stream. Some people obviously botmore in 330 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: a privileged position and a position of power, and other 331 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: people are completely lacking any kind of agency. But it 332 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: is unclear where it's going to go, what's going to happen. 333 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: So it's a particularly interesting time to look at the 334 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: community and go right back to the beginning and see 335 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: where it started, where and off the rails, what actually 336 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: is the lived experience of people in there and people 337 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: who have left, and to start to consider where it 338 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: goes from here. 339 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 7: And justin while making this series, what did you learn 340 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 7: about Glory Vale that shocked you the most? 341 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: Know, we kind of had an idea about all the 342 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: abuse and the sexual abuse and all of that, so 343 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: hearing the details and knowing more about it is shocking, 344 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: and it certainly is as bad as you feared. I 345 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: actually think one of the things that has surprised me 346 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: is the character that the people and I don't know 347 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: how to quite describe it, but it's the resolve the 348 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: compassionate nature. And this is even the people that have left, 349 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, like one of the women that's in the series, 350 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: her name's Pearl, and she was in an earlier series 351 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: that Cloribelle actually made, that they helped author, that was 352 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: played years ago. 353 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 5: She didn't ever agree to be in that series. She 354 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 5: was just told she had to be in it. 355 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: And she's had a horrible, horrible time, you know, through 356 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: the air. She's now left, she's only been out a 357 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: couple of years, but she still has so much compassion 358 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: for the people in there because she you know, and 359 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the surprising things. 360 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 5: You know, she still says there are incredible, loving people. 361 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: Even though she had been beaten up on, you know, 362 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: psychologically and abuse, she can find compassion for the people 363 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: that are there and for the community. And I think 364 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: there has been a surprising thing and actually the inspirational thing, 365 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, particularly in a world where there is so 366 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: much out here, you know, conflict and tribal political that's 367 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: what's going on, and perhaps more of a lack of compassion. 368 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: So I've found the people that we talked to anyway 369 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: to be quite inspiring. 370 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 4: And that was a surprise. 371 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: I didn't really expect to be quite so moved by 372 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: their nature. 373 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 7: Thanks for joining us, Justin, and of course anyone listening 374 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 7: can watch Escaping Utopia on TVNZED one or on TV 375 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 7: and Z Plus. Thanks again. That said, for this episode 376 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 7: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's 377 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 7: stories and extensive news coverage at NZ Herald dot co 378 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 7: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells 379 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 7: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to 380 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 7: the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 381 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 7: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.