WEBVTT - How New Zealand’s top iwi have grown assets to $8.2b 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:06.880 Hyoda. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.920 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:17.200 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. New figures 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.400 have revealed the assets of our ten biggest EWI stands 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.759 at eight point two billion dollars. A recent report from 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:30.760 consultancy firm TDB Advisory shows the assets only rose by 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.920 one hundred million dollars in the last three years as 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.879 the economic turmoil over the last five years continues to 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.000 have an impact on their investments, covering everything from property 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.400 to farming, to managed funds and offshore opportunities. Many of 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.720 these EWE owned assets have an impact on our day 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.360 to day lives. So how do they compare to some 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.320 of our biggest investment firms. To explain where ewei's have 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.560 their money today on the Front Page, TDB Advisory director 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:10.200 Phil Barriers with us to dive into this report. So 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.200 I think a lot of people remain uncertain how all 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.959 these ewis have made so much money. I suppose obviously 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.880 there have been treaty settlements over the last few decades, 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.160 but how has that led to them owning so much 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:24.959 land and making so much money. 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.240 Well, the entities we look at are called the post 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:33.000 settlement EWI entities, and so some of the big ones 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:37.440 like Nati Fatu Iraqi, Nightitahu, why can I Taynoi? They 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.240 settled with the crown, And in fact, in total there's 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.479 been about one hundred EWI settled with the crown since 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.040 the mid nineteen nineties. The settlements, if you had them 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.520 all up, are added to about three point five billion 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:52.840 dollars just in the dollars of the day when the 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.960 settlements were made. And our best instrument is those assets 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:01.000 now are worth around twelve billion dollar. So in a way, 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.760 it's the magic of compound interests. If you like, you know, 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.640 you just reinvest the profits. They've paid out some dividends, 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:08.640 but have tended to take a long term view, and 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.480 just over time those assets have grown as property values 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.440 have increased, as share prices have increased, just as I say, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.000 the magic of compounding. 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.760 So what are these investment reports and why are they done? 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.520 We will have been lucky enough to work with several 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.480 of the larger ews over time and working with them 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.120 on their investment strategies and financial strategies. And so we've 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:37.440 been TDB Advisory, where independent strategic advisors, financial economic advisors. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.520 We just saw a demand out there for a bit 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.760 of an independent review of the ewe's. Three things we 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.119 look at. We look at their organizational structure, we look 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:52.320 at their investment strategies, and we look at their financial performance. 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.800 We've been doing this pro bono for I think close 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:56.840 to ten years now. 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:58.720 Which ewe's are a part of it. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.000 Typically the largest one, so we think we focus on 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.919 the top ten if you like. Those ten probably account 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.200 for about eight billion of assets of the twelve billion 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.760 in total, so around two thirds. 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.919 What are some of the assets owned by our biggest eweys. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.200 What are the industries where you can see the most investment. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.359 Well, not surprisingly a lot of it is the land, 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:29.080 the fenoa, okay, and so it's the commercial property. Like 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.919 we take an few examples y Katto Taiinui, a lot 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:37.280 of investment in downtown Hamilton, the new ACC building for example, 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:41.119 some of the hotels, the Ibis, the no Hotels, half 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.560 share on the Auckland Pullman at the airport, other Nati 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:49.800 Fatuiraki of course Auckland centric downtown Auckland, some very important 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:55.320 ground leases there. Normally, we though have also diversified more 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.960 and have quite a lot of their holdings now in 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:03.680 what we call financial assets, so typically shares or bonds 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.520 and managed funds so and some of those could be 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.280 offshore or they are offshore. Yeah, if we look at 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.000 for example, Touhoi in the two are Awra, you're a Weerra, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.160 they have just over half of their assets in these 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.400 financial assets currently. Nati Pero also some of the sort 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.880 of shares so different e wee, different strategies and yeah, 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:25.960 just interesting to see how it's going over time. 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.520 People on this house talking about mary Len. No, Mary Len. 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:38.599 It was all mary Land confiscated, confiscated under the New 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.839 Zealand Settlements Act in eighteen sixty three, and then they're 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.080 talking about the settlements process where mary only get one 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:49.120 percent of its total due Mary still only have the 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.400 resources that they'regain because the government continues to make its 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.200 money and it's profit of stolen Mali resources and assets. 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:01.960 And then they wonder why body don't want to lose 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:04.920 the four percent that it's still hes. 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.120 So what was the movement in twenty twenty four The 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.719 headline figure is only a one hundred million dollar rise 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.480 since twenty twenty two, but that still sounds pretty impressive 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.240 to a club like me, How does that compare to 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:23.880 previous performances. 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.120 Yeah, Look, it's been a tough couple of years for 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.720 EE and for investors generally in the New Zealand economy. 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.279 So I think those twenty two and twenty three twenty 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.320 four years probably three of the worse than the last 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.800 ten years. On average, over the last ten years, the 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.680 year we've achieved a five percent return twenty four in 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.880 twenty twenty four it fell to about three percent. Actually, 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.680 that's not bad compared to the returns that were available 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.480 to most investors in the New Zealand economy. We calculated 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.400 what we call a benchmark index, that's weights according to 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:02.160 the sectors the EE investor, and that benchmark in twenty 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:06.560 twenty four was a negative five percent return, primarily because 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.400 property prices fell. That nz X Real Estate Institute fell 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.040 by about seven percent, and the other big sector where 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.160 the e WE invest in is primary sector and that 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.039 index fell by around four percent. So you know, it's 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.400 been tough. Fortunately, as I mentioned, many of the ere 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.599 we are now more diversified. Typically they have around five 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.200 or six asset classes, and that diversification can help shield 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.479 you from those cyclical downturns. In any one sector. So 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.919 for example, twenty twenty four was a great year for 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.080 global securities. Not so good at the moment given all 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.279 the term oil, of course, but in twenty twenty four 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.640 the S and P five hundred New York rose by 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.960 about twenty percent in US dollar terms, even more in 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.520 New Zealand dollar terms because of the depreciation of the 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.760 New Zealand dollar, and EWE who were in those investments 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.960 like Knight Tahoo, like out A, Taiinui Tuhoi managed to 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.840 achieve actually pretty good returns into for overall seven percent 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.320 returns typically for those. 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:08.080 Three which EWE is the richest or has the most assets. 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.400 In terms of total assets, actually waking At Taui have 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.679 sort of risen to the top and in the most 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.240 last most recent couple of years, if you measured in 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.040 terms of net assets per member, which if you know 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.080 we're a key we saver investor, that's probably the measure 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.600 you'd use. You look at the number of members of 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.440 each EWI. You know, at one extreme you have Puui 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.080 with about one hundred and twenty thousand members, hasn't settled 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.800 yet with the crown, so it doesn't have a very 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.880 much in the way of asset, it's still one hundred million, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:37.960 but not a lot per member. On the other hand, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.840 you've got nty five two Iraqi, which is a very 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.080 small EWI and very wealthy, so their assets per member 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.360 are around twenty thousand dollars At the moment. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:08:01.160 I think, what are some of the factors that are 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.480 limiting the growth of their assets and the return that 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:05.120 they're getting. 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:11.400 Well, like any investors, it's not easy to consistently year 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.960 in a year out make positive returns. If you look 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.120 at Naho for example, had done very well in over 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:21.400 the decade, but last couple of years it's it struggled. 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:26.080 It's net worth has gone down by about twelve percent. 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.760 Total assets fallen by about eight percent. So debt is 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.560 at the same time as assets have been falling, debt 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.480 has risen somewhat, not not to overstate it, but there 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.880 has been an increase. Why. They obviously hit by COVID, 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.319 like most investors more recently, the property downturn, high interest 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.760 rates ocr last year, you know, at around five percent 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.400 the official cash rate. They're also quite heavily in the 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.160 tourism market. Yeah, I don't know. 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.199 Much about the subject, but I think Nightaho I think tourism. 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:00.960 Yeah, it's not a big part of the portfolio actually, 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.560 but it's a high profile shot over jet everybody knows 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:07.040 that whale watch Kaikura tourism numbers, you know, have not 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.240 rebounded in the way they have been many countries around 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.960 the world. They've rebounded, but not back to pre COVID 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.120 levels yet. So just you know, those operational things do matter. 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.880 Keep in control of operational expenses. Administration expenses are important, 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.400 and you know some of the EWI facing challenges there. 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.960 How do the EWIS fare as asset managers? How would 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.360 you rate their performance compared to some of our banks 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.120 or publicly listed companies. 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.080 Well, as I say, if you look at the long 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.559 term picture, and I think that's the shouldn't be influenced 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.560 by short term sixicality. But over the last ten years, 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.640 benchmark return has been about five point seven percent per annum, 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.480 the EWI on average about five percent, so close almost 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.480 almost fully match it. Now break it down a bit. 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.040 Four of the EWI that we have the data for 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.760 for the eight we have data, four have exceeded that benchmark, 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.600 achieving bridge returns of around seven to eight percent. So 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:06.280 that's the ro Kawas, the ninety five two Iraqis and 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.800 the two big ones Tainui and Naitahu. Four of them 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.520 have done worse than the benchmark over that long term, 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.480 achieving returns of around three to four and a half percent. 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.040 So still positive, but yeah, it should be you'd like 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:23.400 to see some better returns. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.920 There are there any disparities between the ewi's in terms 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.800 of how much they make. It seems like the ones 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:34.520 with more of an urban property portfolio tend to fare better. 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:35.280 Is that fair? 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:39.880 It depends, is the answer, And it depends in particular 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.280 which years you're looking at. So ninety five two Iraqi, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.400 you know, ninety seven percent of its assets in aucan property, 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.720 so sort of high risk strategy, but also has been 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.000 high return as they rode the organ property bone last 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.280 two years. Though a bit of a come back come 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.760 back to earth, a bit of a reality check. The 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.200 interesting ones also, as I said, the two Eastern North 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:07.760 Island EWI two Hoy and Nadi Pero, who've chosen to 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.720 invest more and manage funds about half of their assets. Again, 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.680 there's been some psyclicality, but last year too Hoy did 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.800 very well. It's even a seven percent return overall bounce 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.800 back from its previous year, which was pretty poor. Nadi 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:26.440 Perot's been to me a bit surprisingly week. It's financial 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.160 returns only around three percent per annum over the ten 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.520 years on average, and even last year when global share 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.560 markets boomed, as I said that twenty percent increase, they 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.040 haven't reported strong returns even in that year. It's a 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.120 bit of a puzzle to me how to ewe's. 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.160 I mean, I suppose that it would be different for 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:48.200 each EWI, but how do they generally decide what to 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.960 invest in? Is it a vote amongst members or do 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:52.800 they have a board? 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.960 Yeah? Yeah, no, good, good question. It's they normally do 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.320 have a and this is the structural question that we 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:05.800 look at. Typically, the EUI set up two separate entities, 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.920 often is multiple, but keep it simple. They have one 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.800 enderity that focuses on the commercial management generating the money 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.040 if you like. And then on the other side there 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.400 are the ones that spend the money that have the 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:23.200 social and educational goals. So those commercial ones the ones 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.720 who decide where where the money is invested commercially. They 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:31.480 typically have a board of some tribal appointed members and 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:36.520 some independent members with hopefully with good strong investment expertise. Yeah, 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:41.319 and that separation of roles actually, I think is very important. 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.920 It ensures better accountability, better ability to measure performance. It's 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.320 a little bit like what the government Central Government does 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.840 with its stayed on enterprises, where you have the soees 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.360 set up with the primary objective of making the money 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.680 and then you have the msds and the education who 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:57.400 spend the money. 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.760 Last year, as part of the heralds Fanua project, we 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.839 heard a lot about how the EWI assets today still 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.720 pale in comparison to what the ewe's owned presettlement. We 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:13.160 spoke on this podcast with Nati Fatua Araki Trust's deputy 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:14.880 chair Narimo Blair. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.680 Today we called the Nati pat but that's really a 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.880 reflection of we lost all of the control of all 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.120 of that area, the fishing circuits and the hunting circuits 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.520 for birds, and it was we were whittled away down 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:31.320 to one called of an Acre, which was all we 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.680 had left at ak which is our name today. But 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.079 I don't really like that name because it really highlights 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.840 that we were actually the masters of the holess miss 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.840 and not just the Ford of an Acre land that 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:46.959 we had left at Ki. 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.920 Do you think that it will ever be possible looking 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.240 at your reports, for those assets to ever come close 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:58.400 to what they once were. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.960 Look, that's not something we've locked at. We're looking at 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:10.360 the strategy, structures, performance post settlement. Those settlements obviously politically 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.200 negotiated process. We just take that as a as a 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.160 given and sort of focus on what we're good at, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.120 which is the financial strategy side of things. 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.120 Phil, if you had to take a glimpse into your 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:25.640 crystal ball, what do you think the future holds for 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:26.640 EWE assets. 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.560 Well, I'm an optimist. I guess you sort of have 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.960 to be. And you know there'll be volatility this year, 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:38.760 huge uncertainties around the global political economy that will impact 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.200 all investors and it will impact you know, some of 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.760 the EE directly with if they're involved in our exports 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.280 to the US, which are mainly beef and wine, some 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.200 of the EE you're involved in that. But much more 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.480 important is the whole global trading environment. And you know 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:57.000 you've got to ride these hackups and hopefully come out 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.280 the other side. I think the E we are have length, 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.760 which is they do tend to take a longer term view, 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.960 so you know, by nature they understand and will appreciate 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:12.400 that cyclicality. They're also in strong position because they're gearing. 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:17.240 Their debt levels are relatively low, about fifteen percent on average, 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.520 So you know that means you have more financial flexibility 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:21.880 too to ride the waves. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:26.600 And when these ewe's get a positive return, what do 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.920 they generally do with that money? I suppose every EWE 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.320 is different as well, but they've got that that decides 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.760 how to spend it. Do they put that back into 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:35.360 the community. 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.400 Look, that's a good question too, And you know there's 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:44.080 always that trade off between long term aspirations which mean 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.480 you sort of reinvest in it in the business, and 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.920 the short term demands, you know, for meeting sort of 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.400 social and educational needs. As you said, each ee wee 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.160 is different. My view is that fortunately most of the 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.320 ewe have taken a longer term view. And then now, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.880 you know, if you look at my Tahoo for example, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:06.640 you know they started out with the settlement of one 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.880 hundred and eighty million. They multiplied that by ten to 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.480 having you around one point eight billion in assets. Their 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.560 dividends when they started out, you know, we're about ten 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.520 million per annum. Last year they pay dividends of around 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.160 sixty nine million. So you know that longer term, medium 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.120 to longer term view in a way means you can 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:24.920 have your cake and eat it. You know, you can 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.560 have your assets and pay a higher dividend compared to 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:29.960 if at the start they'd paid out everything in dibdends, 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.600 they'd still be at one hundred eighty million assets. Perhaps. 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:34.160 Thanks for joining us, Phil. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:35.080 Thank you very much, Chelsea. 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.600 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:46.440 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:50.480 at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.280 produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:59.080 our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.280 Page on iHeart Radio or where you get your podcasts, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.400 and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.