1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Hyoda. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. New figures 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: have revealed the assets of our ten biggest EWI stands 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: at eight point two billion dollars. A recent report from 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: consultancy firm TDB Advisory shows the assets only rose by 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars in the last three years as 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 2: the economic turmoil over the last five years continues to 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: have an impact on their investments, covering everything from property 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: to farming, to managed funds and offshore opportunities. Many of 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: these EWE owned assets have an impact on our day 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: to day lives. So how do they compare to some 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: of our biggest investment firms. To explain where ewei's have 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: their money today on the Front Page, TDB Advisory director 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: Phil Barriers with us to dive into this report. So 16 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people remain uncertain how all 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 2: these ewis have made so much money. I suppose obviously 18 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: there have been treaty settlements over the last few decades, 19 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: but how has that led to them owning so much 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: land and making so much money. 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: Well, the entities we look at are called the post 22 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: settlement EWI entities, and so some of the big ones 23 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: like Nati Fatu Iraqi, Nightitahu, why can I Taynoi? They 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: settled with the crown, And in fact, in total there's 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: been about one hundred EWI settled with the crown since 26 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: the mid nineteen nineties. The settlements, if you had them 27 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: all up, are added to about three point five billion 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: dollars just in the dollars of the day when the 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: settlements were made. And our best instrument is those assets 30 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: now are worth around twelve billion dollar. So in a way, 31 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: it's the magic of compound interests. If you like, you know, 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: you just reinvest the profits. They've paid out some dividends, 33 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: but have tended to take a long term view, and 34 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: just over time those assets have grown as property values 35 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: have increased, as share prices have increased, just as I say, 36 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: the magic of compounding. 37 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: So what are these investment reports and why are they done? 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: We will have been lucky enough to work with several 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: of the larger ews over time and working with them 40 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: on their investment strategies and financial strategies. And so we've 41 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: been TDB Advisory, where independent strategic advisors, financial economic advisors. 42 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: We just saw a demand out there for a bit 43 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: of an independent review of the ewe's. Three things we 44 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 1: look at. We look at their organizational structure, we look 45 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: at their investment strategies, and we look at their financial performance. 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: We've been doing this pro bono for I think close 47 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: to ten years now. 48 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: Which ewe's are a part of it. 49 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: Typically the largest one, so we think we focus on 50 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: the top ten if you like. Those ten probably account 51 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: for about eight billion of assets of the twelve billion 52 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: in total, so around two thirds. 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 2: What are some of the assets owned by our biggest eweys. 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: What are the industries where you can see the most investment. 55 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: Well, not surprisingly a lot of it is the land, 56 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: the fenoa, okay, and so it's the commercial property. Like 57 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: we take an few examples y Katto Taiinui, a lot 58 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: of investment in downtown Hamilton, the new ACC building for example, 59 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,119 Speaker 1: some of the hotels, the Ibis, the no Hotels, half 60 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: share on the Auckland Pullman at the airport, other Nati 61 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: Fatuiraki of course Auckland centric downtown Auckland, some very important 62 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: ground leases there. Normally, we though have also diversified more 63 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: and have quite a lot of their holdings now in 64 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: what we call financial assets, so typically shares or bonds 65 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: and managed funds so and some of those could be 66 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: offshore or they are offshore. Yeah, if we look at 67 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: for example, Touhoi in the two are Awra, you're a Weerra, 68 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: they have just over half of their assets in these 69 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: financial assets currently. Nati Pero also some of the sort 70 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: of shares so different e wee, different strategies and yeah, 71 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: just interesting to see how it's going over time. 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: People on this house talking about mary Len. No, Mary Len. 73 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 3: It was all mary Land confiscated, confiscated under the New 74 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 3: Zealand Settlements Act in eighteen sixty three, and then they're 75 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 3: talking about the settlements process where mary only get one 76 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: percent of its total due Mary still only have the 77 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: resources that they'regain because the government continues to make its 78 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 3: money and it's profit of stolen Mali resources and assets. 79 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: And then they wonder why body don't want to lose 80 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: the four percent that it's still hes. 81 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: So what was the movement in twenty twenty four The 82 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: headline figure is only a one hundred million dollar rise 83 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: since twenty twenty two, but that still sounds pretty impressive 84 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: to a club like me, How does that compare to 85 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: previous performances. 86 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, it's been a tough couple of years for 87 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: EE and for investors generally in the New Zealand economy. 88 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: So I think those twenty two and twenty three twenty 89 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: four years probably three of the worse than the last 90 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: ten years. On average, over the last ten years, the 91 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: year we've achieved a five percent return twenty four in 92 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four it fell to about three percent. Actually, 93 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: that's not bad compared to the returns that were available 94 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: to most investors in the New Zealand economy. We calculated 95 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: what we call a benchmark index, that's weights according to 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: the sectors the EE investor, and that benchmark in twenty 97 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: twenty four was a negative five percent return, primarily because 98 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: property prices fell. That nz X Real Estate Institute fell 99 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: by about seven percent, and the other big sector where 100 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: the e WE invest in is primary sector and that 101 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: index fell by around four percent. So you know, it's 102 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: been tough. Fortunately, as I mentioned, many of the ere 103 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: we are now more diversified. Typically they have around five 104 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: or six asset classes, and that diversification can help shield 105 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: you from those cyclical downturns. In any one sector. So 106 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: for example, twenty twenty four was a great year for 107 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: global securities. Not so good at the moment given all 108 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: the term oil, of course, but in twenty twenty four 109 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: the S and P five hundred New York rose by 110 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: about twenty percent in US dollar terms, even more in 111 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: New Zealand dollar terms because of the depreciation of the 112 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: New Zealand dollar, and EWE who were in those investments 113 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: like Knight Tahoo, like out A, Taiinui Tuhoi managed to 114 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: achieve actually pretty good returns into for overall seven percent 115 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: returns typically for those. 116 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: Three which EWE is the richest or has the most assets. 117 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: In terms of total assets, actually waking At Taui have 118 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 1: sort of risen to the top and in the most 119 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: last most recent couple of years, if you measured in 120 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: terms of net assets per member, which if you know 121 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: we're a key we saver investor, that's probably the measure 122 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: you'd use. You look at the number of members of 123 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: each EWI. You know, at one extreme you have Puui 124 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: with about one hundred and twenty thousand members, hasn't settled 125 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: yet with the crown, so it doesn't have a very 126 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: much in the way of asset, it's still one hundred million, 127 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: but not a lot per member. On the other hand, 128 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: you've got nty five two Iraqi, which is a very 129 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: small EWI and very wealthy, so their assets per member 130 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: are around twenty thousand dollars At the moment. 131 00:07:47,120 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: I think, what are some of the factors that are 132 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: limiting the growth of their assets and the return that 133 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: they're getting. 134 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: Well, like any investors, it's not easy to consistently year 135 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: in a year out make positive returns. If you look 136 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: at Naho for example, had done very well in over 137 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: the decade, but last couple of years it's it struggled. 138 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: It's net worth has gone down by about twelve percent. 139 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: Total assets fallen by about eight percent. So debt is 140 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: at the same time as assets have been falling, debt 141 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: has risen somewhat, not not to overstate it, but there 142 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: has been an increase. Why. They obviously hit by COVID, 143 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: like most investors more recently, the property downturn, high interest 144 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: rates ocr last year, you know, at around five percent 145 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: the official cash rate. They're also quite heavily in the 146 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: tourism market. Yeah, I don't know. 147 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 2: Much about the subject, but I think Nightaho I think tourism. 148 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a big part of the portfolio actually, 149 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: but it's a high profile shot over jet everybody knows 150 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: that whale watch Kaikura tourism numbers, you know, have not 151 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: rebounded in the way they have been many countries around 152 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: the world. They've rebounded, but not back to pre COVID 153 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: levels yet. So just you know, those operational things do matter. 154 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: Keep in control of operational expenses. Administration expenses are important, 155 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: and you know some of the EWI facing challenges there. 156 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: How do the EWIS fare as asset managers? How would 157 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: you rate their performance compared to some of our banks 158 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: or publicly listed companies. 159 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: Well, as I say, if you look at the long 160 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 1: term picture, and I think that's the shouldn't be influenced 161 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: by short term sixicality. But over the last ten years, 162 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: benchmark return has been about five point seven percent per annum, 163 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: the EWI on average about five percent, so close almost 164 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: almost fully match it. Now break it down a bit. 165 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: Four of the EWI that we have the data for 166 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: for the eight we have data, four have exceeded that benchmark, 167 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: achieving bridge returns of around seven to eight percent. So 168 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: that's the ro Kawas, the ninety five two Iraqis and 169 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: the two big ones Tainui and Naitahu. Four of them 170 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: have done worse than the benchmark over that long term, 171 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: achieving returns of around three to four and a half percent. 172 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: So still positive, but yeah, it should be you'd like 173 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: to see some better returns. 174 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: There are there any disparities between the ewi's in terms 175 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: of how much they make. It seems like the ones 176 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: with more of an urban property portfolio tend to fare better. 177 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: Is that fair? 178 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: It depends, is the answer, And it depends in particular 179 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: which years you're looking at. So ninety five two Iraqi, 180 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, ninety seven percent of its assets in aucan property, 181 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: so sort of high risk strategy, but also has been 182 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: high return as they rode the organ property bone last 183 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: two years. Though a bit of a come back come 184 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: back to earth, a bit of a reality check. The 185 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: interesting ones also, as I said, the two Eastern North 186 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: Island EWI two Hoy and Nadi Pero, who've chosen to 187 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: invest more and manage funds about half of their assets. Again, 188 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: there's been some psyclicality, but last year too Hoy did 189 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: very well. It's even a seven percent return overall bounce 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: back from its previous year, which was pretty poor. Nadi 191 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: Perot's been to me a bit surprisingly week. It's financial 192 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: returns only around three percent per annum over the ten 193 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: years on average, and even last year when global share 194 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: markets boomed, as I said that twenty percent increase, they 195 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: haven't reported strong returns even in that year. It's a 196 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: bit of a puzzle to me how to ewe's. 197 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I suppose that it would be different for 198 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: each EWI, but how do they generally decide what to 199 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 2: invest in? Is it a vote amongst members or do 200 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: they have a board? 201 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, no, good, good question. It's they normally do 202 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: have a and this is the structural question that we 203 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: look at. Typically, the EUI set up two separate entities, 204 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: often is multiple, but keep it simple. They have one 205 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: enderity that focuses on the commercial management generating the money 206 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: if you like. And then on the other side there 207 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: are the ones that spend the money that have the 208 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: social and educational goals. So those commercial ones the ones 209 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: who decide where where the money is invested commercially. They 210 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: typically have a board of some tribal appointed members and 211 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: some independent members with hopefully with good strong investment expertise. Yeah, 212 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: and that separation of roles actually, I think is very important. 213 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: It ensures better accountability, better ability to measure performance. It's 214 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: a little bit like what the government Central Government does 215 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: with its stayed on enterprises, where you have the soees 216 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: set up with the primary objective of making the money 217 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: and then you have the msds and the education who 218 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: spend the money. 219 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: Last year, as part of the heralds Fanua project, we 220 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 2: heard a lot about how the EWI assets today still 221 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: pale in comparison to what the ewe's owned presettlement. We 222 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: spoke on this podcast with Nati Fatua Araki Trust's deputy 223 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: chair Narimo Blair. 224 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 4: Today we called the Nati pat but that's really a 225 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 4: reflection of we lost all of the control of all 226 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 4: of that area, the fishing circuits and the hunting circuits 227 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 4: for birds, and it was we were whittled away down 228 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 4: to one called of an Acre, which was all we 229 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 4: had left at ak which is our name today. But 230 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 4: I don't really like that name because it really highlights 231 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 4: that we were actually the masters of the holess miss 232 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 4: and not just the Ford of an Acre land that 233 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 4: we had left at Ki. 234 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: Do you think that it will ever be possible looking 235 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: at your reports, for those assets to ever come close 236 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: to what they once were. 237 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: Look, that's not something we've locked at. We're looking at 238 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: the strategy, structures, performance post settlement. Those settlements obviously politically 239 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: negotiated process. We just take that as a as a 240 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: given and sort of focus on what we're good at, 241 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: which is the financial strategy side of things. 242 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: Phil, if you had to take a glimpse into your 243 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: crystal ball, what do you think the future holds for 244 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: EWE assets. 245 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: Well, I'm an optimist. I guess you sort of have 246 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: to be. And you know there'll be volatility this year, 247 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: huge uncertainties around the global political economy that will impact 248 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: all investors and it will impact you know, some of 249 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: the EE directly with if they're involved in our exports 250 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: to the US, which are mainly beef and wine, some 251 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: of the EE you're involved in that. But much more 252 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: important is the whole global trading environment. And you know 253 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: you've got to ride these hackups and hopefully come out 254 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: the other side. I think the E we are have length, 255 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: which is they do tend to take a longer term view, 256 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: so you know, by nature they understand and will appreciate 257 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: that cyclicality. They're also in strong position because they're gearing. 258 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: Their debt levels are relatively low, about fifteen percent on average, 259 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: So you know that means you have more financial flexibility 260 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: too to ride the waves. 261 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: And when these ewe's get a positive return, what do 262 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: they generally do with that money? I suppose every EWE 263 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: is different as well, but they've got that that decides 264 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: how to spend it. Do they put that back into 265 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: the community. 266 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: Look, that's a good question too, And you know there's 267 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: always that trade off between long term aspirations which mean 268 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: you sort of reinvest in it in the business, and 269 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: the short term demands, you know, for meeting sort of 270 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: social and educational needs. As you said, each ee wee 271 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: is different. My view is that fortunately most of the 272 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: ewe have taken a longer term view. And then now, 273 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, if you look at my Tahoo for example, 274 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: you know they started out with the settlement of one 275 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty million. They multiplied that by ten to 276 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: having you around one point eight billion in assets. Their 277 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: dividends when they started out, you know, we're about ten 278 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: million per annum. Last year they pay dividends of around 279 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: sixty nine million. So you know that longer term, medium 280 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: to longer term view in a way means you can 281 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: have your cake and eat it. You know, you can 282 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: have your assets and pay a higher dividend compared to 283 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: if at the start they'd paid out everything in dibdends, 284 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: they'd still be at one hundred eighty million assets. Perhaps. 285 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Phil. 286 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Chelsea. 287 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 288 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 289 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 290 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 291 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front 292 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: Page on iHeart Radio or where you get your podcasts, 293 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 2: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.