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Speaker 1: Strike Down the Middle.
Speaker 2: Of Dry, Dicky Scy try.
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Speaker 1: with Elliot Smith and Leam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Forklift Solutions. Back again
Speaker 2: as we count down to the first test of the
Speaker 2: Rugby Championship. First weekend of the Rugby Championship and from
Speaker 2: a New Zealand perspective, the All Blacks in action against
Speaker 2: Argentina ten past nine on Sunday morning in called Dobe.
Speaker 2: You can hear it live on News Talks ab Gold
Speaker 2: Sport and iHeartRadio. But before we get into that big
Speaker 2: welcome into Liam Napier as always, greetings, great to be
Speaker 2: here earlier yep, and we counting down obviously to that
Speaker 2: test mat for some big news in the back end
Speaker 2: of last week that Richie Muwong is returning to New
Speaker 2: Zealand rugby in more eleven months time July twenty twenty
Speaker 2: six through to December twenty twenty seven. I mean this
Speaker 2: has been in the background for quite some time. Even
Speaker 2: since he left. Basically it was trying to get him
Speaker 2: back to New Zealand Rugby. They finally managed to get
Speaker 2: his signature on the line for an eighteen month deal.
Speaker 2: It means he'll play at the twenty twenty seven Rugby
Speaker 2: World Cup, if selected and if fit. I guess your
Speaker 2: reaction to that news.
Speaker 3: First and foremost, it's not a surprise, as Elliott, I
Speaker 3: think it was always a case of when, not if
Speaker 3: Richie Muwanga would return home. It's probably a year later
Speaker 3: than everyone anticipated.
Speaker 4: Certainly there was a.
Speaker 3: Widespread expectation that he would cut short that deal that
Speaker 3: didn't eventuate. New Zealand Rugby ends Toshiba couldn't agree financial terms,
Speaker 3: but he is coming home eighteen months. It's an interesting
Speaker 3: length of contract. I guess it's does mean he's eligible
Speaker 3: for the World Cup, as you mentioned, but it's a
Speaker 3: bit of a hit and run mission, isn't It allows
Speaker 3: him to potentially go back to Japan and kash and
Speaker 3: again there and it's going to be a very interesting
Speaker 3: dynamic for Scott Robinson to manage because Boden Barrett is
Speaker 3: taking a claim as the All Blacks starting first choice.
Speaker 3: Ten Damien McKenzie is there. You've got Reuben Love and
Speaker 3: Stephen Peter Fetter and behind them. But Rich mu Wonga
Speaker 3: is a world class ten. We haven't seen him on
Speaker 3: the international stage for a couple of years, but Robinson
Speaker 3: has always wanted him, hasn't he And now he will
Speaker 3: get him back. How does he manage that scenario?
Speaker 2: Well, I has been looking in the background and you know,
Speaker 2: Boden Barrett and Damien McKenzie aren't stupid. They would know
Speaker 2: that this was a likely possibility for twenty twenty seven
Speaker 2: and that's you know, it's not really a surprise. I
Speaker 2: don't think, you know, they can't have been thinking that
Speaker 2: this is going to be straightforward that they're the one
Speaker 2: two for the World Cup. Yup, There's going to be
Speaker 2: some things to manage, but perhaps no more than other players.
Speaker 2: It's just been a higher profile inclusion. And you know,
Speaker 2: Boden Barrett himself has come back from playing in Japan,
Speaker 2: hasn't missed much All Black rugby because of that. But
Speaker 2: you know t J. Petinara has come back in There's
Speaker 2: been precedent before and at some point later in the
Speaker 2: year lestifying a Nuoku will come back in. So it's
Speaker 2: because I think the ten is such a pervotal role
Speaker 2: that everyone goes house is going to be balanced. But
Speaker 2: to this point in time, hard to argue that Barrett
Speaker 2: or Mackenzie have gone there. You know, the laydown Missie
Speaker 2: option to start at ten for the All Blacks right
Speaker 2: through the cycle. Mackenzie had his opportunities last year. Now
Speaker 2: Boden Barrett is the first choice in the minds of
Speaker 2: that and suspect Richie Wong will get a run next year.
Speaker 2: So over the next eighteen months or thereabouts, there's probably
Speaker 2: going to be a lot of test matches for these
Speaker 2: players to show they wear and by the time you
Speaker 2: get to August September whenever it is, twenty twenty seven,
Speaker 2: Bill Blacks will have an idea of their pecking order.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Boden Barrett hasn't fully convinced yet, but
Speaker 3: he's certainly building a case, isn't he that he has
Speaker 3: come again as a test verse five? He is showing
Speaker 3: that game control along with the moments of brilliance. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I just this's going to be some personalities to manage
Speaker 3: and some big selection calls because you bring a guy
Speaker 3: like Richie Muwonga an out and out competitor, a world
Speaker 3: class player. He's not going to want to sit on
Speaker 3: the bench. He's going to want to start. You want
Speaker 3: all the best players available for the All Blacks. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's going to be a tricky dynamic for Robertson to
Speaker 3: manage because he has invested in Bowden, probably told him
Speaker 3: he's his guy. He's told Damien he's right there and
Speaker 3: he's going to get his chance. And then suddenly Richie's
Speaker 3: back and he's got eighteen months to contest that starting
Speaker 3: ten Jersey. So and as you mentioned, there are other
Speaker 3: dynamics that play there, listifying and look who could feasibly
Speaker 3: push Rikawani out of the first choice squad. So how
Speaker 3: Robertson manages those selection dynamics can have a destabilizing effect
Speaker 3: on a squad potentially could do.
Speaker 2: But there's no guarantee that by twenty twenty seven McKenzie
Speaker 2: and Barretts or more longer for that exactly, for that matter,
Speaker 2: in that All Blacks twenty twenty seven squad. You know,
Speaker 2: players come in and out of times. You're not guaranteed
Speaker 2: in All Blacks Jersey, So you know us you've got
Speaker 2: to manage people that are in your squad. But there's
Speaker 2: also a requirement to do what's best for the All
Speaker 2: Blacks and the All Blacks Jersey. And if that is
Speaker 2: selecting Richie Moonger because he's the best available ten in
Speaker 2: Robertson's mind, then I think he has to go do it.
Speaker 3: So what what shaped does Muwanga come back in? Because
Speaker 3: generally Jordi Barrett's the exception and he tellingly didn't go
Speaker 3: to Japan. He went to let Leinster. Muanga has led
Speaker 3: to Shepard to back to back League One titles in
Speaker 3: Japan and the footage you see of him as they're
Speaker 3: still carving up playing well, but most, if not all
Speaker 3: players that have come back from Japan take a while
Speaker 3: to find their feet. It's a different style of rugby.
Speaker 3: It's not at test rugby level. Eighteen months isn't a
Speaker 3: huge amount of time and he's not just going to
Speaker 3: be starting every game. What sort of form shape do
Speaker 3: you expect him to come back in.
Speaker 2: Well, two years driving to Shuba and two titles there
Speaker 2: is what he's been able to deliver there, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it's probably not at the same level of rugby. But
Speaker 2: I think the Japanese competition is probably because it's out
Speaker 2: of sight, out of mind, doesn't get the perhaps credit
Speaker 2: it deserves. It has evolved into a much better competition
Speaker 2: than it was five ten years ago. It's a lot tighter,
Speaker 2: there's not as many blowouts than there has been before.
Speaker 2: So yep, there'll be a major adjustment required from Moong
Speaker 2: coming back to New Zealand rugby. But he's been in
Speaker 2: the drivers seat and he's led them to two titles,
Speaker 2: so he's clearly got that golden touch that has continued
Speaker 2: at the Crusaders. There's a lot of factors at played
Speaker 2: that are going to have to be managed and whether
Speaker 2: he comes back in it and straight for his choice, so
Speaker 2: whether he has to go and play some tour games,
Speaker 2: whatever it might be, it's gonna be fascinating, as you said,
Speaker 2: to see arm folds.
Speaker 3: It is, and there's going to be a number of
Speaker 3: comings and goings because next year Antonina Brown, Rico Awani
Speaker 3: and Artie Severa or skipping Super Rugby, they will come
Speaker 3: back and be available for the All Blacks. But and
Speaker 3: then Richie comes back, maybe Shannon Frazell as well, So look,
Speaker 3: you get all those guys back on deck at strengthens
Speaker 3: the All Blacks, doesn't.
Speaker 2: It It does, indeed a couple of other we but
Speaker 2: some pieces doing the rounds and super Rugby. You've got
Speaker 2: some whispers or some news to report to us on
Speaker 2: Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if he whispers Eliot, it sounds like Angus Tartovel
Speaker 3: potentially shifting from the Blues to the Highlanders form All
Speaker 3: Blacks been well traveled around the traps. I guess he's
Speaker 3: stuck behind. And Josh for Stur is a big mover
Speaker 3: at the Blues and offered to hing a fuss. He's
Speaker 3: meant to be back next year. That's yet to be confirmed,
Speaker 3: but that's what I'm hearing, And apparently the Highland is
Speaker 3: making a big play for Josh Jacob. Jacob has contracted
Speaker 3: to the Chiefs in twenty twenty six. But for me,
Speaker 3: I don't know how what you'll read on this is,
Speaker 3: but he's a wasted talent at the Chiefs. He's barely
Speaker 3: had many starts playing back up to McKenzie. The Hearland
Speaker 3: is a crying out for a ten. Jacob's got a
Speaker 3: young family. But in my mind it was a wrong decision,
Speaker 3: or however you want to describe it, to turn down
Speaker 3: the Crusaders when they approached him a couple of years ago.
Speaker 3: He could have had opportunities there. You need to be
Speaker 3: playing rugby. He's started a lot for the All Blacks fifteen,
Speaker 3: so he's on that radar, but his talents, his progression
Speaker 3: has stagnated. So Brady McAllister moved from the Crusaders to
Speaker 3: the Chiefs.
Speaker 2: And he had a year to go on his contract
Speaker 2: is where he got a early release from the Crusaders.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 3: It's not common, but it's not without precedent, and it
Speaker 3: is good to be talking about these sort of stories
Speaker 3: because super rogue we tends to die out of season,
Speaker 3: so interesting to see where those guys end up. But
Speaker 3: Heland is clearly on a big recruitment drive, having signed
Speaker 3: David Kibwa, was defense coach. Jamie Joseph is expected to
Speaker 3: lead their All Blacks fifteen. So could get in Jacob's
Speaker 3: ear and try and convince him could do.
Speaker 2: And I'm also hearing Olie mathis poised to sign for
Speaker 2: the Crusaders. I know he's been asked about it in
Speaker 2: recent weeks and has sort of played it down, but
Speaker 2: my understanding is that he will be at the Crusaders. Well,
Speaker 2: one of the young, real young talents of New Zealand rugby.
Speaker 3: Very promising, undoubtedly shining again for Wakatur the other nights,
Speaker 3: broad range of skills. Doesn't he for a loose forwards? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think those in Chiefs country would be pretty pretty
Speaker 3: pissed about that.
Speaker 4: But a good get for the Casaders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Crusade mean the Chiefs have now got
Speaker 2: to get another loose FORWD in the All Blacks and
Speaker 2: the form Simon Parker, so it's pathway a little bit
Speaker 2: blocked the end, although he could play out on the wing,
Speaker 2: which we'll send him to for White Cut. So let's
Speaker 2: get into the Rugby Championship with the All Blacks playing
Speaker 2: Argentina first up. Obviously, the squad was named last week
Speaker 2: for there's tour and a large squad for the tour.
Speaker 2: I guess if you compare it to quote unquote the
Speaker 2: top team that started the French series and say that
Speaker 2: they say Wellington and that first test in Dunedin, do
Speaker 2: we expect many changes or does it matter of say,
Speaker 2: you know, the players like Scott Barrett coming back into
Speaker 2: the second row, you know Wallace a t t at
Speaker 2: number eight, Those sort of things for this test and
Speaker 2: first test in called over well.
Speaker 3: I think first and foremost this will be the All
Speaker 3: Black's first choice team. They're not going to take any
Speaker 3: chances with the Pumas that lost to them and Wellington
Speaker 3: last year will still firmly sticking the clare and that
Speaker 3: won't allow the Pumas that the elements of surprise that
Speaker 3: they had maybe the All Blacks underestimated of them, maybe
Speaker 3: though caught by a surprise. That certainly won't be the
Speaker 3: case into Argentina for two games over there, So it
Speaker 3: will be the All Blacks' best available team. And with
Speaker 3: that and minds, you know you'd expect if Wallace is fit,
Speaker 3: he probably comes back in and starts, doesn't he And
Speaker 3: the same for Scott Barrett Well.
Speaker 2: I think it's a straightforward thing, isn't it. You know
Speaker 2: Leo Will he's not there, so Tidi comes back in,
Speaker 2: assuming he's good to go at number eight. It's the
Speaker 2: path of least resistance. You don't have to tweak too
Speaker 2: many things. That's assuming he's poised to get through eighty minutes,
Speaker 2: I guess is the one question that would be there
Speaker 2: around it. But if he's in the squad good to go.
Speaker 2: Then I'd say Wallace a TDI comes in the half
Speaker 2: back is fascinating. Now, of course he's right Tomid. Does
Speaker 2: he just elevate himself to nine or is there actually
Speaker 2: a little bit of a conversation to be had there?
Speaker 3: No, I think Courtez comes in at nine. Finlay hasn't
Speaker 3: been around that group, and Preston probably still has a
Speaker 3: bit of time to get up to speeds his first
Speaker 3: time in the All Blacks can be but players can
Speaker 3: get a bit overall by that, So I think Courtez
Speaker 3: comes into art there. What's the most contestable role? We
Speaker 3: know the first choice the incumbents Tomighty Williams isn't available
Speaker 3: for the first Test. Sounds like you'll come back for
Speaker 3: the seconds. What do you see is the most contestable
Speaker 3: probably to provide a six the midfields. Does Billy Proctor
Speaker 3: get another gut center?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think Billy Procter does go. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: those roles are contestable over time. Maybe not so much
Speaker 2: for this Test match as a one off for and
Speaker 2: you know, just singling it out, but I think over
Speaker 2: time those jerseys are still contestable. In terms of blind
Speaker 2: soide flanker. In terms of center, Billy Proctor had two tests.
Speaker 2: I would have liked to see him get a third
Speaker 2: in that series. He didn't. I suspect he's still at
Speaker 2: this point in time the first choice in the All Blacks. Minds.
Speaker 2: We had Scott Hansen say during the week that it's
Speaker 2: not other run as possibility. We might see Rico Yuani
Speaker 2: go back and descend it, but he's been included as
Speaker 2: an outside back and in this squad as well, So yeah,
Speaker 2: I'd go Billy Proctor at thirteen outside Jordi Barrett feels
Speaker 2: like the most natural combine nation that they've got there,
Speaker 2: and just hope that that Test rugby clicks for Billy
Speaker 2: proped to because it probably hasn't to this point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought he was. He got better as that
Speaker 3: series war on. In Wellington. I thought he played well
Speaker 3: on both sides of the ball, particularly in the second half,
Speaker 3: but hasn't looked as good as he did in Super
Speaker 3: rugby and just needs that more time, I think. Just
Speaker 3: note that Simon Parker is being playing NPC this weekend
Speaker 3: so clearly won't be included in that. In that first
Speaker 3: test squads, he was the notable inclusion in the All
Speaker 3: Black s Rugby Championship mix. And there's a couple of others.
Speaker 3: Aren't there playing the MPC this weekend? Yeah there are
Speaker 3: last weekend yep, so interesting see how they come through that.
Speaker 3: Trying to think off Tom Ofhead who exactly they are,
Speaker 3: But yeah, the players are playing an MPC of the weekend,
Speaker 3: just being mon't be playing the first test, and it's
Speaker 3: just it's a nightmare to get to Argentina. It takes
Speaker 3: about seventy two hours, not that much, but they weren't
Speaker 3: playing in that first test.
Speaker 4: No wings.
Speaker 3: Do you expect Rico and severice very contestable spots on
Speaker 3: the wing?
Speaker 2: But I do, Yeah, I think for this first test
Speaker 2: match and if they win in Cordo. But it doesn't
Speaker 2: give them a license necessarily because Argentina are a very
Speaker 2: very tough team and often better when they've had you know,
Speaker 2: one game and can can see the team. I suspect,
Speaker 2: you know, suspect that probably that may give them a
Speaker 2: little bit of license to look at it in Atawa
Speaker 2: or even the Leroy Carter for the second test of
Speaker 2: this trip. But I would be very surprised if anything
Speaker 2: other than the incumbents and by using incumbents and Inta
Speaker 2: combas Rico, Uani and Severice get the nod there and
Speaker 2: then Will Jordan at fullback. So that's the team that
Speaker 2: I would pick. Feels relatively straightforward to this point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, front row tyro a Lomax out, so Fletch Newell
Speaker 3: probably comes in there. What about Lucid with to Mighty
Speaker 3: Williams still one week away from coming back.
Speaker 2: I think to Grout starts there. You know, I thought
Speaker 2: he built over that series. He's still, in my mind,
Speaker 2: not delivering what the All Blacks would like him to.
Speaker 2: I don't think that the passing game comes natural to
Speaker 2: ethan degree that the All Blacks are clearly attacking in
Speaker 2: that shape now and asking their props to do a
Speaker 2: little little bit more handling of the ball and setting
Speaker 2: up the back line as well, just in some of
Speaker 2: the carries they're doing. So I can't see them going
Speaker 2: against the grain for that one. But again, the second Test,
Speaker 2: if the All Blacks won the first one, could be
Speaker 2: interesting because you still have a week off in between
Speaker 2: the Second Test and Buenos Aire's and coming home for
Speaker 2: that game at Eden Park. But they may just look
Speaker 2: to get some players on ice get to Mighty Williams
Speaker 2: and the team and.
Speaker 4: Change a few things up.
Speaker 3: If we take a step back and look at the
Speaker 3: Rugby Championship as a whole, what's the successful tournament for
Speaker 3: the All Blacks that they didn't want it last year,
Speaker 3: lost those two games in South Africa. They've never in
Speaker 3: history not won the Rugby Championship too in a row.
Speaker 3: Is it as simple as when the title or bust?
Speaker 2: I think it is this year because they have the
Speaker 2: softer Rugby Championship draw that you would get and I
Speaker 2: use this with the greatest subspect to Argentina, but they're
Speaker 2: still searching for that first one on home soil and
Speaker 2: until that comes in, it will be seen as a
Speaker 2: softer trip having two games in Argentina rather than the
Speaker 2: two in South Africa under the format that the Rugby
Speaker 2: Championship now operates, so when you've got South Africa twice
Speaker 2: at home, it's easy than playing them at Alice Park
Speaker 2: and playing them in Cape Town wherever it might be.
Speaker 2: So I think this year it's win or bust for
Speaker 2: Scott Robertson and his team, and the All Blacks have
Speaker 2: never not won at two years in a row, so
Speaker 2: there's an expectation that they'll bounce back. South Africa's gonna
Speaker 2: be all mightily tough when they come to Eden Park
Speaker 2: and to Sky Stadium in a few weeks time. But
Speaker 2: I think that they have to go out and win
Speaker 2: it otherwise it can't be deemed a successful campaign.
Speaker 3: What's the you, Yeah, I think there should write be
Speaker 3: an expectation that the All Blacks reclaim the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 3: If you remove the title, I think going one on
Speaker 3: one with the spring Box would be acceptable, Probably less
Speaker 3: so if that loss comes at Eden Park, just because
Speaker 3: of the historical significance and everything that's gone before. The
Speaker 3: All Blacks always talk about the history, the legacy and
Speaker 3: they will be desperate to uphold that. That matches, in
Speaker 3: my mind, the most important Test match this year, and
Speaker 3: the spring Box will be gunning for it. But just
Speaker 3: because of where the Springboks are at, I think there
Speaker 3: does need to be a bit of context about them
Speaker 3: being world champions. The depth are built their record over
Speaker 3: the past few years.
Speaker 4: But yeah, the All Blacks are on home soil.
Speaker 2: There on home soil and they've got a record that
Speaker 2: they you know, winning is you know what they're expected
Speaker 2: to do it's the key to their commercial success. So
Speaker 2: you've got to win these big games when they come along.
Speaker 3: They do and so reclaim the title. But as far
Speaker 3: from straightforward.
Speaker 2: All right, we'll give me your finishing order then for
Speaker 2: the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 3: All right, look, oh, the Box a favorites, but I'll
Speaker 3: back the All Blacks to finish top to win the
Speaker 3: Rugby Championship. Box second, I'm going to say the Pumas
Speaker 3: finish third and the Wallaby's fourth. I think the lines
Speaker 3: tour will actually take a bit of a toll on
Speaker 3: them by the end, and they'll be missing a few
Speaker 3: of those key guys like Skelton. I think he may
Speaker 3: be available for the opening Rugby Championship game against the Box,
Speaker 3: but then we'll go back to France and yeah, I
Speaker 3: just feel like the Wallabies may run out of depth
Speaker 3: and a bit of steam.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I kind of feel the same way. It's going
Speaker 2: to be a long six games by the time they
Speaker 2: get to Perth for that final game against the All Blacks,
Speaker 2: I will probably Yeah, I'm going to go South Africa
Speaker 2: finish top. I think they'll split one one in New
Speaker 2: Zealand and some of the other results will conspire to
Speaker 2: to get them to the top. The All Blacks will
Speaker 2: just narrowly miss out and maybe you know, in seven
Speaker 2: eight weeks time we're reviewing it as a good campaign,
Speaker 2: but not a great one from the All Blacks. And third,
Speaker 2: I think probably the Wallabies just to buy the basis
Speaker 2: that well they've got the Poombers twice at home. I
Speaker 2: think they should beat the Poomers twice at home, although
Speaker 2: the last time the Pumas are there from memory they'll
Speaker 2: drop one of them. So it is set up as
Speaker 2: an interesting Rugby Championship, isn't it. And there's a lot
Speaker 2: of questions around the Rugby Championships future. We've got the
Speaker 2: rugby's greatest rivalry coming in next year, still to be
Speaker 2: officially confirmed, but it is happening. Three tests against the
Speaker 2: spring Box. The All Blacks will go over the year.
Speaker 2: It'll return in twenty thirty. So the Rugby Championships in
Speaker 2: an interesting place, isn't it? Because this year it's the
Speaker 2: full format. We won't see the full format again until
Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight. Given twenty twenty seven is a Rugby
Speaker 2: World Cup year, it's truncated so and then after that
Speaker 2: you know it's pushed back a little bit because the
Speaker 2: Lion's coming to New Zealand. If unless Stephen Jones has
Speaker 2: his way and they go and play in France, then
Speaker 2: it's South Africa coming here for three tests. So is
Speaker 2: that an interesting juncture the Rugby Championship And I guess
Speaker 2: if you're the All Blacks and New Zealand Rugby and
Speaker 2: Sansar as a whole kind of needs to have a
Speaker 2: bit of a stake in the ground as to what
Speaker 2: the Rugby Championship actually is and where it goes to
Speaker 2: from here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was so to simplify that it's the full
Speaker 3: version once every four years, and that's not totally their
Speaker 3: Sansar is doing or the Southern Hemisphere because of that
Speaker 3: World Cup year as you mentioned. But I think the
Speaker 3: less you have of something, the more you the more, the.
Speaker 4: Less prestige it has.
Speaker 3: And there's an argument for me that the Rugby Championship
Speaker 3: is the toughest regular tournament in the world. I think
Speaker 3: because of the travel for one, and because of the
Speaker 3: fact that the All Blacks and Springboks are in the
Speaker 3: six nations. Is competitive. But Wales have fallen off a cliff.
Speaker 3: Italy a getting better, but they are too reasonable, wind
Speaker 3: banking games in the Six Nations. It's got great traveling fans,
Speaker 3: but I think I think the Rugby Championship in my mind,
Speaker 3: is actually harder to win, but it does lose significance
Speaker 3: and prestige when it's out of sight, out of mind.
Speaker 3: And if you're the Wallabies, I'm a huge fan of
Speaker 3: bringing back these South African tours. That's going to be
Speaker 3: massive in a rugby sphere for those countries. But if
Speaker 3: you're the Wallabies or Poomas, you're sort of left out
Speaker 3: in the cold for two years, aren't you.
Speaker 1: You are.
Speaker 2: And clearly in zid Are and South African rugby have
Speaker 2: gone bug of that. Don't worry about them. We will
Speaker 2: push on with what we want to do and that's
Speaker 2: the right. But it does leave them out in the cold.
Speaker 3: And there are negotiations compensation agreements to be agreed being
Speaker 3: negotiated currently behind closed doors between New Zealand Rugby and
Speaker 3: Rugby Australia.
Speaker 4: Because of that.
Speaker 2: What I would say is though in terms of this
Speaker 2: Rugby Championship, it's never the tournament itself, always feels like
Speaker 2: a little bit of an afterthought to the little two
Speaker 2: match series that play out in between, and you know,
Speaker 2: most people looking forward to the you know, the spring
Speaker 2: box in the middle of it, those two tests in there,
Speaker 2: you know they're going to go on on to two
Speaker 2: Tests tour to Argentina and then obviously the Bledderso carp
Speaker 2: at the end. This is from a New Zealand perspective obviously,
Speaker 2: but it feels like almost those little two match tours
Speaker 2: feel more important than the points table at the end
Speaker 2: of the Rugby Championship. And maybe that's where it's got
Speaker 2: to because you know, I take your point around the
Speaker 2: competitiveness and that things like that, but it doesn't have
Speaker 2: the same prestige in terms of winning the Six Nations
Speaker 2: winning the Rugby Championship in my mind.
Speaker 3: No, I agree, because it doesn't have the historical significance.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have the traveling fans and the same intense
Speaker 3: passionate following. Yeah, and you're right. I think since the
Speaker 3: four went to those two match towards, it did become
Speaker 3: more about those mini face offs than previously where it
Speaker 3: was one off match against South Africa, then Australia and
Speaker 3: the Pumas and sort of doing the round. So yeah,
Speaker 3: rugby evolves doesn't it, And that's the greatest rivalry between
Speaker 3: the Orblex and spring Box is going to be massive
Speaker 3: once every four years. So I'm not going to sit
Speaker 3: here and say they've got it wrong. But I think
Speaker 3: the Ruby Championship over time that the prestige of it
Speaker 3: winning it has been slowly eroded.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that the two match series probably
Speaker 2: as you said, have contributed to that. And it feels
Speaker 2: like the Ruby Championships are just sort of a bucket
Speaker 2: to have these fixtures in rather than a trophy that
Speaker 2: means a lot. And you know, your mileage and your
Speaker 2: point of view may vary on that if you're listening,
Speaker 2: but it does feel that, yeah, maybe these tweaks it
Speaker 2: might not be the best thing for its long term health.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it did mean a lot to the
Speaker 3: spring Box last year because it was the first time
Speaker 3: that'd on it in a long time. Neil Black's held
Speaker 3: an ironclad grip on it, so it meant a lot
Speaker 3: to them then, But it would probably mean less to
Speaker 3: them this year if they want to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, if your Black beats at Africa to nil,
Speaker 2: what are you most a mirror of the year. The
Speaker 2: fact that beats to Africa to nil, or the fact
Speaker 2: that they won the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you could argue the Freedom Cup holds prior to
Speaker 3: place over the Rugby Championship quite.
Speaker 2: Possibly, and then that was big for South Africa as
Speaker 2: well getting it back last year as well a few
Speaker 2: other matters to touch on this week in terms of
Speaker 2: the Rugby World Australia confirming the Ghetto Law has been axed.
Speaker 2: I think it was about a year ago. Actually they
Speaker 2: managed to sort of sweep that through, but it's finally
Speaker 2: come to public conscience now.
Speaker 1: This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares, Every.
Speaker 2: Tri drive a sixty severy tackle, tack tackles, get up again.
Speaker 5: Before it's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2: Ladies talks one of the great names of the law,
Speaker 2: the Ghetto Law, when it came in in twenty fifteen
Speaker 2: for that Rugby World Cup with Michael Chicker and co.
Speaker 2: Feels like it's probably served its time from an Australian
Speaker 2: perspective though, I mean this is by the sound of
Speaker 2: it been in place for about a year and Joe
Speaker 2: Schmidt hasn't gone balls to the war wall and picked
Speaker 2: through France and England and Japan. To pick all the
Speaker 2: possible overseas players he can. So while the law has gone,
Speaker 2: certainly from Joe Schmidt's perspective, it doesn't feel like he's
Speaker 2: just going to go and look overseas and Super Rugby
Speaker 2: be damned.
Speaker 3: So I guess the getto law was brought in the
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen World Cup for when Michael Chicker was coached,
Speaker 3: so they could select Ghetto and Drew Mitchell and maybe
Speaker 3: a couple of others, and it has evolved over time.
Speaker 3: The Wallabies in recent times have had some with Karev,
Speaker 3: Marika Cotta, Betty will Skelton. I think they picked Kwake Cooper,
Speaker 3: maybe a couple of others and whatnot. But honestly, I
Speaker 3: don't see it having a drastic effect because well, at
Speaker 3: least while Joe Schmitt's there, because he has prioritized selecting domestically,
Speaker 3: and I think the caveat or the expectation is if
Speaker 3: there's a fifty to fifty decision, they will select local.
Speaker 3: And the other reality is there's actually not that many
Speaker 3: spots in the global game open now in Japan or
Speaker 3: France or the UK or wherever it is. You have
Speaker 3: to be quite an elite player to get those and
Speaker 3: it's not you know that the financial landscape recruiting is
Speaker 3: not what it used to be. So yeah, maybe we
Speaker 3: see a few more top line Australian players shoot offshore
Speaker 3: and the rather than the test game. The big impact
Speaker 3: could come at super rugby level, right Like Australia are
Speaker 3: just starting to improve in the demise of the Melbourne Rebels.
Speaker 3: If you take a few key guys out of those teams,
Speaker 3: that could really affect their progress and their teams need
Speaker 3: all the help they can get to be competitive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, feeling under Jochma I don't see it changing. He's
Speaker 2: obviously there till the end of the year. Then Liscus
Speaker 2: comes in. Maybe Liscus will be more of a globalist
Speaker 2: and look to go to every corner of the world
Speaker 2: and pick players through and bring them through. But it
Speaker 2: sounds like a law that's been dropped. But I don't
Speaker 2: expect wholesale changes anytime soon. To the Wallabies, it just
Speaker 2: doesn't feel like something. I mean, you look back to
Speaker 2: that ghetto time they needed a playmaker, they needed a
Speaker 2: Matt Gesso to come into the mix. That law was
Speaker 2: created for him. I don't see the same. You know,
Speaker 2: maybe apart from Will Skelton that the same need for
Speaker 2: you know, opening the gates that there is now no.
Speaker 3: The one big kick in the guts would be someone
Speaker 3: like Joseph sue Eli. He's their pin up boy right now.
Speaker 3: He was the face of their lines tour. If he
Speaker 3: went to Japan or France or wherever and they still
Speaker 3: selected him for the Wallabies, well that's a big blow
Speaker 3: for Super Rugby. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, having him in the war Tars has been has
Speaker 2: been immense with them. Although I saw that Buzz Rothfield
Speaker 2: from in a Roll through sixty was suggesting that he
Speaker 2: may not be at the Wartars next year and may
Speaker 2: go elsewhere in Australian Super Rugby. So watch this space.
Speaker 4: He's not seeking a pay bump for it.
Speaker 2: Maybe he'll end up at the Hurricanes or the Crusaders
Speaker 2: or somewhere all the Highlanders, you know Jamie josephs on
Speaker 2: the recruitment drivers who touched on the top of the episode.
Speaker 4: Maybe oh, they can select from New Zealand.
Speaker 2: So straight out of bond Die down to Sint Clea Beach.
Speaker 4: Get him over, Jamie ill improve his game.
Speaker 2: That's right before we go on Rugby Direct Kenny Lynn,
Speaker 2: one of the cult heroes of the NPC and Super Rugby.
Speaker 2: What a decade ago, maybe a little bit longer, close
Speaker 2: to fifteen years ago. Now on the Argentina coaching staff
Speaker 2: as the attack coach and Liam you caught up with
Speaker 2: Kenny Lynn and got the lowdown on the Argentinians.
Speaker 3: I did the Southern Man by way of Leon back
Speaker 3: to the Landers and was joined the Plumas in June
Speaker 3: last year, so I was in the coaching box for
Speaker 3: their upset triumph over the All Blacks and Wellington and yeah,
Speaker 3: interesting to see what he can bring to them in
Speaker 3: the Ragpiya Championship.
Speaker 2: Let's ever listen to that now before we go on
Speaker 2: rapid director.
Speaker 3: What's it been like? I guess some different culture, different
Speaker 3: rugby environment, but to be immersed in the you know,
Speaker 3: an international team, pretty pretty great opportunity.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, great opportunity.
Speaker 6: Always always thought it would be amazing a coach international,
Speaker 6: had never really thought that would be that would be
Speaker 6: an option RGY. But it's been great, I.
Speaker 5: Mean, very different and that it's such a unique set up.
Speaker 6: Vast majority of the team playing Europe but then come
Speaker 6: back and then join up for the RG and then,
Speaker 6: so you've kind of got Northern Hemansphere based club club
Speaker 6: players but then play in Southern Hemisphere Ragbory Championship and international.
Speaker 5: But it's great. Like I I knew.
Speaker 6: One of the other coaches, Fernandez Lobbe a little bit
Speaker 6: because I did my top coaching stufficate in France and
Speaker 6: we were two of the only foreigners on that on
Speaker 6: the course one year, so I met him that ways,
Speaker 6: he's a good lad and Felipe Contempory, head coaches, is
Speaker 6: really really great man to work with as well, so
Speaker 6: that certainly made it, you know, enjoyable, and yeah, they're
Speaker 6: a good crew, they're good people, and I especially thought
Speaker 6: with Argentina, I feel like Argentina in a lot of
Speaker 6: ways almost sometimes can be run second favorite team and
Speaker 6: that have had that underdog status in the past, but
Speaker 6: capable of.
Speaker 5: Pulling off big performances and player kind of style of
Speaker 5: rugby you enjoy.
Speaker 6: So I really wanted to get a part of that
Speaker 6: and see what I could do to keep growing it,
Speaker 6: and thought as well, there's a fear bit opportunity there
Speaker 6: and that the team age wise, they're pretty a lot
Speaker 6: of twenty five, six twenty seven year olds who have
Speaker 6: played together a lot, especially for the Jeduaries, so I
Speaker 6: thought there was potential there as well to keep improving.
Speaker 4: And your role specifically is a tech coach.
Speaker 5: Yeah, side to attack and backs.
Speaker 6: But there's just four coaches, so we share a fair
Speaker 6: amount and what we do, like we cross over and
Speaker 6: like Felipay's obviously head coach and does the defense, but
Speaker 6: has got a good attacking mind as well, so we
Speaker 6: share a few bit of what we're doing.
Speaker 5: But yeah, that is mate for wrong.
Speaker 3: How would you describe your philosophy? I guess broaderly and
Speaker 3: I guess agent seen in the Poomas. I've got a
Speaker 3: bit of a blended game, don't they. They obviously a
Speaker 3: pretty big pack, great at the breakdown, but can really
Speaker 3: move the ball, great athletes offload, look to play at pace.
Speaker 3: So does that sort of align with how you see
Speaker 3: the game, Yeah, very much. So, like.
Speaker 6: There's a there's certainly an element of unstructured play that
Speaker 6: the the Argentinians really enjoy and seem to thrive off,
Speaker 6: which is that playing fast, keeping it alive, running hard
Speaker 6: into space.
Speaker 5: And so it's kind of like harnessing that.
Speaker 6: Really big on the guys being brave and I guess
Speaker 6: freeing them up so that they can they feel like
Speaker 6: they can go out there.
Speaker 5: On the on the game day and and have a crack.
Speaker 6: So I guess that's it's that mix between giving them
Speaker 6: detail which you need an international game to break down defenses,
Speaker 6: understanding how we play and their roles, but also getting
Speaker 6: them into that stage where they just feel like that
Speaker 6: they can look up and play what he was in
Speaker 6: front of them and get that good Argentinian flear which
Speaker 6: can which can come out. Yeah, we're working a lot
Speaker 6: as well and how we can I guess a good
Speaker 6: thing about the team is that they're capable of, I
Speaker 6: guess emotionally really getting up. But what we're really working
Speaker 6: on as well as making sure that we can get
Speaker 6: that right balance between being in that right head space
Speaker 6: for emotionally you're right up to rip right in, but
Speaker 6: not letting it maybe go over where it can lead
Speaker 6: to discipline or eras or that kind of thing. So yeah,
Speaker 6: that's a big thing that we're focusing on as a
Speaker 6: staff as well.
Speaker 3: So you came in June last year, I guess you
Speaker 3: know there's been some big results the British and Irish
Speaker 3: lines being the spring box the Wallabies and of course
Speaker 3: the All Blacks and Wellington.
Speaker 4: What what was it like.
Speaker 3: Being on the other side of the fence for that result.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well it was amazing to be a part of
Speaker 6: because yeah, like it's that's a huge result all last year.
Speaker 6: I think what we got those results were through real
Speaker 6: consistency of preparation and Felipe's done really well and establishing
Speaker 6: really really good core values within the group and how
Speaker 6: we behave and stuff, and I think that's what helped us.
Speaker 5: I just have that season last year, certainly.
Speaker 6: A little bit different being a key we coaching against
Speaker 6: the All Blacks, but it was it was probably only
Speaker 6: probably felt the most strangers from the lead up to
Speaker 6: the game, and then once you're into it, yes you're
Speaker 6: rolling on with the Pomas and doing everything I can
Speaker 6: for them to.
Speaker 5: Perform and win. So yeah, it felt great.
Speaker 6: And then it was really good to back that up
Speaker 6: and be able to beat the spring Box and have
Speaker 6: we had a really good performance against Aussie over there
Speaker 6: where we had a record score against them. But again
Speaker 6: for us, like our next level for our growth is
Speaker 6: to be able to do that again and then also
Speaker 6: back it up game after game, because we did have
Speaker 6: ups and downs. You know, each time we did beat
Speaker 6: the top guys, we lost the next game. But that
Speaker 6: Lions game was really really good, Like, we were really
Speaker 6: happy with that. We only had five days to get
Speaker 6: together as a group and you know, we all got
Speaker 6: to go over in Dublin and it's a big event
Speaker 6: the Lions, you know. But I was happy that we
Speaker 6: started that season like that and the type of rugby
Speaker 6: we played as well as exactly what we've been working on,
Speaker 6: really good, positive and scoring good tries.
Speaker 5: But yeah, that was good.
Speaker 3: What do you think it would mean to them? You know,
Speaker 3: they're not off for various firsts and recent times. What
Speaker 3: do you think it would mean to beat your blacks
Speaker 3: on home saw for the first time?
Speaker 5: I would be huge. I think.
Speaker 6: Rugby and Argentina is in an interesting spot whereas there
Speaker 6: was a rocky period probably five or six years ago,
Speaker 6: and now it's really in a moving in a positive direction.
Speaker 5: Like amateur rugby, which is the bulk.
Speaker 6: Of that in Argentina is thriving, like the club scene
Speaker 6: there is awesome, and I think what we did last year,
Speaker 6: hopefully the style of play we're trying to bring in,
Speaker 6: which is real positive and fast and open. We'll keep
Speaker 6: growing that energy and so to beat a team like
Speaker 6: the All Blacks at home would be would be huge.
Speaker 6: It would be huge to kind of, I guess back
Speaker 6: up what we did last year and solidify what we're
Speaker 6: trying to achieve, you know, as specially as we built
Speaker 6: in these next few years. So made it would be huge.
Speaker 6: It'll be huge for the country and it would be
Speaker 6: huge for the team.
Speaker 2: That it'll do us for Rugby Direct looking forward to
Speaker 2: kick off nineteen someday morning, the All Blacks in Argentina
Speaker 2: in Cordoba and Ligham look forward to hearing all about
Speaker 2: your adventures in Cordoba and beyond when we catch up
Speaker 2: next week.
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, La, I need to return the favor you
Speaker 3: brought me home a we melback last year, so it'd
Speaker 3: be rude if I didn't.
Speaker 4: Do the same.
Speaker 2: I look forward to receiving that on your return. We
Speaker 2: all catch up with Liam next week on Rugby Director
Speaker 2: thanks to Lars and bars Englishee. Next time, I'm on
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