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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Straight down the middle of.

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Speaker 3: DRUP Squad, try.

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Speaker 1: Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct

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Speaker 1: with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News Talks EDB.

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Speaker 3: Welcome into Rugby directpowered by Access Solutions, elevating you and

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Speaker 3: your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith with me,

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Speaker 3: Liam Napier, and we have the forty four man squad

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Speaker 3: for Rugby's greatest rivalry confirmed. Liam going to read us

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Speaker 3: off the top of your head?

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Speaker 2: How many? How manyame? Is it there?

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Speaker 4: That's a bumper squad, isn't it, Elliott? But it must

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Speaker 4: be the biggest squad certainly in recent memory, in all

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Speaker 4: back's history. But it's going to be a brutal to

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Speaker 4: and you'd have to think most of these players will

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Speaker 4: be needed, certainly initially until you get to the back

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Speaker 4: end and those midweek games cease.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, there's gonna be a better rotation. I suspect with

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Speaker 3: for six to two bench used when Dave Renny front

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Speaker 3: of media a couple of weeks back. But I guess

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Speaker 3: your initial top line reactions to the squads. I guess

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Speaker 3: we probably thought that thirty four that played in July,

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Speaker 3: or at least were named originally for July, would be there.

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Speaker 3: That has been the case. No one's come in or

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Speaker 3: out through injury or form. Jamie Hannah was added to

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Speaker 3: that squad and is not in the touring party for

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Speaker 3: this tour, with Fabi and Holan coming back, so no

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Speaker 3: surprises in those thirty four names. I guess the ten

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Speaker 3: that have been included, we have three uncapped players there

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Speaker 3: in Hurricanes props, Ali Lawaukee, justh Jacob out of the

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Speaker 3: Highlanders from next year, but also Tartanaki and Samesi to Portailor.

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Speaker 3: The drums started beating for him a fear about last week,

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Speaker 3: and sure enough he is there. So three new faces.

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Speaker 3: But what do you make of the overall squad.

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Speaker 4: I think when he's shown a pension for being bold

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Speaker 4: and surprising us throughout his short tenure, we saw that

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Speaker 4: in July, and I think we're seeing it again here.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure other all Black coaches would have selected Smessie.

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Speaker 4: I think he has a lot of upside. He's a

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Speaker 4: very powerful ball carrier, damaging and that was very evident

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Speaker 4: in a pretty poor wineer pacifica team. I think by

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Speaker 4: selecting him, the probably backing themselves to not recondition him,

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Speaker 4: but improve his fitness and get more out of him

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Speaker 4: so that he's the big bolter, isn't he? From a

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Speaker 4: Rockie perspective, Lawaki can play both sides of the scrum.

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Speaker 4: He is a real comer. I think he'll be there

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Speaker 4: for a long period of time and it makes sense

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Speaker 4: to get him in and blood him. And then the

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Speaker 4: other talking points are no grief and Noah Hotham. I

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Speaker 4: think those are the two biggest emissions and those guys

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Speaker 4: will be pondering the futures. Potentially only three half backs

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Speaker 4: in that squad four first five, so interesting balance there.

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Speaker 4: But if your doc Carefa, you're sitting back. First it

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Speaker 4: was Anton Segna, now it's Ethan Blackadder. You can't make

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Speaker 4: a forty four man squad. So this changing regime has

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Speaker 4: really hurt you last year when you turned down an

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Speaker 4: overseas contract to stay to chase that all black jersey.

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Speaker 4: So he will be filthy probably.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you'll be frustrated because he's gone from

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Speaker 3: being quite high on the depth chart to plunging down

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Speaker 3: quite quickly not Hopam's the same, and he started against

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Speaker 3: South Africa and Wellington last year, albeit in ad midst

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Speaker 3: of an injury crisis at halfback for the All Blacks,

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Speaker 3: but now not in the squad to go to South

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Speaker 3: Africa less than twelve months later. So there's been some

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Speaker 3: really big drops. So I guess if we get the

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Speaker 3: emission out of the way, you're right, Preston Karefi, Christian

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Speaker 3: Leo Willie maybe offered throng a FASTI to an extent

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Speaker 3: as well, those players that would consider themselves perhaps a

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Speaker 3: little disappointed.

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Speaker 2: Not to be there.

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Speaker 3: The third half back scenario or fourth half back scenario

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Speaker 3: was fascinated because they've clearly gone we back ourselves to

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Speaker 3: get through the tour games by using Ratman and Preston.

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Speaker 3: And if we need to, maybe we look at Leroy

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Speaker 3: Carter because he's talked about a six or two bench,

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Speaker 3: so maybe Leroy Carter comes into the reckoning. There is

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Speaker 3: a bench option at half back that can also slot

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Speaker 3: on the wing, maybe midfield as well, So perhaps they've

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Speaker 3: gone we can cover that there mentioned here what Dave

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Speaker 3: Rennie thinks as well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right, but I am surprised half

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Speaker 4: back such a specialized position. You look at hookers the same.

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Speaker 4: They have gone a fourth hooker with George Bell. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 4: maybe you're looking at it at Leroy Carter, even a

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Speaker 4: Damien McKenzie type character who can give you ten minutes

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Speaker 4: at half back. Perhaps, but just on Hopem I think

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Speaker 4: the messaging was clear around him not being fast enough

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Speaker 4: to the base. Maybe there's an attitude or a personality

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Speaker 4: thing with him and Careffe as well. Not too sure,

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Speaker 4: but look, Hotham for me still has a lot of upside.

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Speaker 4: He has a great running game and I think his

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Speaker 4: kicking needs some work, but his distribution is usually pretty sound.

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Speaker 4: So it's a massive drop if you think about you know,

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Speaker 4: you potentially considering going to Africa for potentially once in

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Speaker 4: a lifetime tour, and now you're back playing provincial rugby.

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Speaker 4: I don't think, no, hope I will throw his toys

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Speaker 4: and jump ship just yet. But if you're Coriffee at

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Speaker 4: this stage in your career and you're not in that mix,

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Speaker 4: I think he really will sit down and consider his options.

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Speaker 3: Will you look at it now and go, okay, I'm

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Speaker 3: not in this forty four man squads to go to

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Speaker 3: South Africa in a year's time. They'reabout is they're going

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Speaker 3: to have to take a World Cup squad now, Kareefe

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Speaker 3: Hope Firm, Lego Willie are going to have to do

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Speaker 3: a lot of work to get back in the selectors thinking.

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Speaker 3: And you've still got plenty of rugby in front of

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Speaker 3: you for those guys are going to a fall in

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Speaker 3: PC season. Maybe they can impress it on the end

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Speaker 3: of view too. They're going to a full super rugmiy sais.

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Speaker 3: They're not out of time. But I guess it's a

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Speaker 3: question now for them of do they have the willingness

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Speaker 3: to go to work and get themselves up and chase

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Speaker 3: that spot on the All Blacks which will be fascinated

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Speaker 3: to see what they do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting. I guess when you look at the

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Speaker 4: balance of those and the contrasts and the complimentary skills

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Speaker 4: that the lose. For blackad as your workhorse and so

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Speaker 4: he probably edges Cariffe and sa Messi two po ty

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Speaker 4: lower is your big ball carrying number eight and so

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Speaker 4: they've gone that way rather than a Leio.

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Speaker 2: Wade and.

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Speaker 4: It's really hard to shift that needle and selection is

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Speaker 4: so subjective. What Scott Robinson wanted is clearly different from

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Speaker 4: what Dave Rennie, Neil Barnes and Graham Henry wants. So

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Speaker 4: it is really hard to change that thinking you probably

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Speaker 4: need a few injuries and as you say, a World

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Speaker 4: Cup squads at least what ten players are reduction on this.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, really tough. I don't see any other major

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Speaker 4: major emissions you're talking about. Offer toing it fussy. I

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Speaker 4: think time's probably moved on from him. He looked pretty

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Speaker 4: gassed with ball in hand, in particularly only playing forty

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Speaker 4: minutes for the Blues and basically scrummaging and not doing

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Speaker 4: a lot else around the field.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was remarkably came back from that neck injury

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Speaker 3: at all, quite frankly, and good on him for doing so.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I think you're right. The thing of the moment's past.

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Speaker 4: And then yeah, naturally Fabian Hollands will be a real asset.

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Speaker 4: They'll gradually build him up. He's just played one game

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Speaker 4: preseason for Otago. Ammonia Nahua is another one has played

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Speaker 4: bugger or rugby, played a preseason game for Bay Have

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Speaker 4: Plenty at the weekends and our producer wasn't glowing. Mark

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Speaker 4: in his assessment of Emoni's performance and that. But I

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Speaker 4: can't remember the last time he actually played for the Chiefs.

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Speaker 4: It must have been the start of the season out

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Speaker 4: of foot fracture, missed the bulk of that year. So

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Speaker 4: he's another guy that's been picked.

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Speaker 3: One of his last accident all next year's He was

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Speaker 3: scoring that try at Eden Park against the spring Box

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Speaker 3: last year. That's what he's capable of, but then had

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Speaker 3: a very serious rib stomach issue around that punctured lunched lung.

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Speaker 2: That's it. And you know, but we know what he's

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Speaker 2: capable of as well.

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Speaker 4: So and he's another essential essentially another fullback in that mix.

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Speaker 4: So he's good in the air, quite silky skills. So

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Speaker 4: he certainly fits that brief that they're looking for.

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Speaker 3: It does indeed, I guess if we're just going to

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Speaker 3: talking about Smithy Toboard tay Lower a little bit more

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Speaker 3: like I've been a big fan of him for a

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Speaker 3: couple of seasons.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: Now technically he was ineligible while he was playing for

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Speaker 3: Wader Pacifica. Now Moana no longer exists, he doesn't have

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Speaker 3: a Super Rugby contract for next year. It's made him

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Speaker 3: agualy be picked I'm sure they could have bent the

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Speaker 3: rules some way to get him in there, but I've

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Speaker 3: been very impressed by him. The question I would have

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Speaker 3: is he's probably a little bit rough around the edges

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Speaker 3: in terms of his play. I would also suggest that

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Speaker 3: maybe we've seen players from Miwana Pacifica go to other

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Speaker 3: Super Rugby franchises and maybe it's a case of big

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Speaker 3: fessional pond sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: At Mojana.

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Speaker 3: You stand out when you are doing something in a

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Speaker 3: team that isn't really getting much go forward. You think

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Speaker 3: of Levi Moore potentially and other players as well, they

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Speaker 3: haven't maybe further their careers at other teams. So that's

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Speaker 3: the one reservation I have about him. But I think

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Speaker 3: he's a quality player. He seems dialed in and yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do in

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Speaker 3: a Black jersey. I think there's a big opportunity for

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Speaker 3: him with an eye to not only this too a

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Speaker 3: bit beyond.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I agree. I think what your biggest upside is

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Speaker 4: a player is a point of difference, and you can't

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Speaker 4: coach size. And when you look at the composition of

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Speaker 4: that loose forward makes there's no one else like in

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Speaker 4: terms of physical composition, he steamroll players were ball in hand.

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Speaker 4: I think it was there a performance against the Chiefs

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Speaker 4: that stands out, and as I was saying a pretty

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Speaker 4: poor team, he did shine. So maybe there's it speaks

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Speaker 4: to what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: But also.

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Speaker 4: Things have had to move pretty quickly behind the scenes.

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Speaker 4: He's on Rugby has had to contract him for next

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Speaker 4: season without a Super Rugby franchise, so interesting to see

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Speaker 4: the scramble that goes on behind the scenes and who

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Speaker 4: looks to pick him up. A couple of other points

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Speaker 4: to note. Tatavanahwa back in the midfield, another guy with

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Speaker 4: a point of difference. Probably not his best Super Rugby season.

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Speaker 4: I think he carried an injury for much of the year.

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Speaker 4: And I'm not sure how much to read into this,

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Speaker 4: but Rico jan he selected as an outside back, not

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Speaker 4: a midfielder.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's gonna be interesting to see. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: has this I heard a couple of people on Piney Show,

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Speaker 3: I think it was of the Weekends, just thing that

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Speaker 3: maybe he should be the starting center on this tour.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure that things will get to that point,

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Speaker 3: but again, different coaches, it may see different things. Enrico

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Speaker 3: Yuani and what he can do in a Test team.

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Speaker 3: Josh Jacob Let's dial in a bit about him surprised

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Speaker 3: by his selection. He takes the Richie Wonger spot that

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Speaker 3: would have gone to Richie Wong's way, which sounds like

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Speaker 3: he's good to go for the NPC opening round this

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Speaker 3: weekend from that carf injury, but he gets a not

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Speaker 3: in the All Blacks for the first time. To be honest,

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Speaker 3: I've been a big fan of Josh Jacon for a

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Speaker 3: few seasons, but I feel he's kind of stagnated a

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Speaker 3: little bit at super Apeia level from the promise that

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Speaker 3: he showed a couple of years ago, and maybe going

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Speaker 3: to the Highland is next year a sea change would

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Speaker 3: be good for him and everything else like that. But

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Speaker 3: maybe Neil Barnes knows him at Tartanak and can get

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Speaker 3: the best out of him. But I feel like he's

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Speaker 3: stagnated a little bit. So it'll be interesting what role

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Speaker 3: he has on this to with the All Blacks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, he's stagnated promptly because of a lack of opportunity. Right.

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Speaker 4: He has been in that All Blacks fifteen on the

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Speaker 4: cusp of Test selection, but not really in the conversation

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Speaker 4: because Boden Barrett and Damien McKenzie and Mitch and Morong

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Speaker 4: are coming back and Reuben Love now taking the reins,

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Speaker 4: so you're quite well down the pecking order there. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: going to the Highlands next year, we'll give him a

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Speaker 4: chance to own a team to run the cutter and

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Speaker 4: hopefully that'll be the making of his career. For me,

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Speaker 4: he to this point in his career has been a

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Speaker 4: real steady hand. I think he does the game management

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Speaker 4: side of things well, but I think he to this

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Speaker 4: point has lacked a bit of X factor in terms

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Speaker 4: of challenging the line, a bit of creativity, So I

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Speaker 4: want to see a bit more out of him there.

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Speaker 4: The interesting scenario for me is they must have been

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Speaker 4: tempted just to take three tens and then if you

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Speaker 4: get an injury, you can immediately ask for an exemption

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Speaker 4: to bring Moan over. So I'm a wee bit surprised

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Speaker 4: that they've taken Jacob and four tens and they haven't

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Speaker 4: closed that door because if if first five fullback goes down,

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Speaker 4: they can argue they need someone. But it does kind

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Speaker 4: of mitigate the need for Muwanga, doesn't It.

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Speaker 3: Well, it does, but yeah, absolutely, because it's harder to

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Speaker 3: argue if even if you ed to lose a random

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Speaker 3: and random member of the squad, it's harder to go

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Speaker 3: we always bring a rich and wonger there because you've

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Speaker 3: got the cover there with fourteens. If it was if

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Speaker 3: you had three teams and say a midfielder or outside

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Speaker 3: back when down there and go, okay, we're going to

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Speaker 3: put longer and we're going to move Barrett as outside

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Speaker 3: back now or whatever it might be. But you do

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Speaker 3: lose that argument a little bit. I'm sure there are

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Speaker 3: ways to manipulate it. Point I've made previous on the

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Speaker 3: podcast is that you know he fining off for it,

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Speaker 3: continues to be selected by the All Blacks and is

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Speaker 3: going on this tour. Still have not had an update

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Speaker 3: as to whether he's out of this contract with Newcastle

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Speaker 3: yet a player that's committed to New Zealand can't be selected,

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Speaker 3: so I still find that baffling.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's hard to get your head around some of

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Speaker 4: those things, isn't it. Ardie severe as well, late start

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Speaker 4: which was flagged by Rennie during July. He will arrive

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Speaker 4: sometime closer to the first test, so we will essentially

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Speaker 4: get two weeksish off to refresh physically, mentally, spend time

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Speaker 4: a family. So there'll be another captain for the first

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Speaker 4: three tour games.

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Speaker 2: I believe in two captains.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And look that's got to be needed, doesn't it.

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Speaker 4: For ARTI's basically played eighteen months of rugby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was his choice to go on sabbatical,

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Speaker 3: so let's remember that. But it was again, if he

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Speaker 3: goes doesn't go on sabbatical, perhaps it's not contract to

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Speaker 3: member of New Zealand Rugby. So there are swings and

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Speaker 3: roundabouts there and various things that have to be you know,

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Speaker 3: you got to pay the piper, so to speak, and

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Speaker 3: balance it out that way. I don't have a huge

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Speaker 3: issue with for missing it. And there were reports obviously

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Speaker 3: from Gregor Paul and others including yourself around you know,

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Speaker 3: may not even play for the All Blacks again. So

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Speaker 3: I think we've got to the point now if he's

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Speaker 3: selling to miss those first two or three tour matches,

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Speaker 3: probably about it right and and we know what we'll

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Speaker 3: get out of Artie. I mean there was chatter that

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Speaker 3: he maybe would miss the entire July series, but he

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Speaker 3: was appointed captain. You can't have your captain missing the

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Speaker 3: first three tests under a new era, so there was

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Speaker 3: a little bit of balancing going on.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a huge issue with it. What about yourself?

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Speaker 4: I think, look, it makes sense this window to refresh him.

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Speaker 4: He's going to play full brutal tests against the Box

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Speaker 4: and captain unless there's some major injury. So yeah, I

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Speaker 4: think it makes sense. Just on Artie's future, I think

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Speaker 4: he is definitely itching closer to inking a deal with

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Speaker 4: the Blues. I know the Blues met with him in

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Speaker 4: person during those three tests in July and they put

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Speaker 4: forward a formal offer and it's now basically sitting with

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Speaker 4: New Zealand Rugby to see if they can bridge the

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Speaker 4: financial gap. But I think that will happen. That's my

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Speaker 4: expectation because he doesn't really have anywhere else to go,

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Speaker 4: certainly not within New Zealand Arabia, I wouldn't think, and

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Speaker 4: the Blue who are the strongest commercial team in New Zealand,

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Speaker 4: so I don't think you'll get any more money elsewhere.

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Speaker 4: So maybe that deal gets done by the time he

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Speaker 4: gets to Africa. Not one hundred percent on that, but

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Speaker 4: it certainly wheels in motion.

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Speaker 3: It would have been nice to see him in red

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Speaker 3: and black, but you know, cut and everything. Who has

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Speaker 3: the most again, out of let's say the ten players

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Speaker 3: that have been recalled, we haven't touched Ethan black at

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Speaker 3: back in the mix as well for the first time

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Speaker 3: in a couple of years. Very much alike Forul Like

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Speaker 3: with Jacobson, I suppose if you're going to shadow the

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Speaker 3: two teams, there's just seven on the other side of things,

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Speaker 3: and he's got in with Karefi. But out of those

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Speaker 3: ten new ish names, who has the most again, in

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Speaker 3: terms of making a test twenty three? Do you think, well,

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Speaker 3: who has the most likelihood of breaking into the Test

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Speaker 3: twenty three?

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Speaker 4: Well, it partly depends on injuries. But look, if a

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Speaker 4: guy like Samssi Toptaya Lower comes out and steamroll some

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Speaker 4: massive South African opponents, I think he's a genuine candidate

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Speaker 4: for the bench, isn't he him on with twenty minutes

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Speaker 4: to go and unleash him. Look, he's as you to

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Speaker 4: your point, he's still very raw and it'll be interesting

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Speaker 4: to see how much game time he actually gets. But

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Speaker 4: if you look at some of the other rookies like

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Speaker 4: Jacob and Lowaki, they feel like they're further down the

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Speaker 4: picking order where Taylor I feel like he could come

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Speaker 4: up pretty quick, depending on performances and how he takes

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Speaker 4: that environment. It can be very overwhelming and can take

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Speaker 4: players sometime to find their feats, but I think he's

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Speaker 4: certainly one guy. Jacob, I don't see him really pushing

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Speaker 4: that hards. Fabian Holland obviously could rise up the ranks

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Speaker 4: pretty quickly if he can get up to speeds. He

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Speaker 4: hasn't played a lot of rugby this year, but he's

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Speaker 4: a young man and by all accounts of Rehead, Well

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Speaker 4: what about you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say Fabin Holand would be close to that

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Speaker 3: match that first choice twenty three, I mean tweet, but

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Speaker 3: lots he played really well starting opportunity with in Dowry

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Speaker 3: play some great rugby this year as well. Josh Lord,

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Speaker 3: I think we're well served with locks super vibe. But

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Speaker 3: if you're going to have VI on the blind side,

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Speaker 3: the question is whether you need a lot on the bench.

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Speaker 3: So maybe he's either got to be in the starting

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Speaker 3: side or not at all, and that lends you should

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Speaker 3: get more flankers on the bench, So maybe he might

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Speaker 3: not be able to crack that twenty three potentially for

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Speaker 3: this tour. I think in morning Nadawa, you know, every

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Speaker 3: time he's been in the black jersey has stood up.

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Speaker 3: I think if you get some reps under his belt,

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Speaker 3: then there's a very good chance that he could find

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Speaker 3: his way into a twenty three man. Not history starting,

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Speaker 3: but just that versatility off the bench is that he

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Speaker 3: can play the wings, he can play full back. He's

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Speaker 3: played midfield as well at Super Rugbia level I think,

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Speaker 3: but certainly in n PC. So it just gives the benchrops,

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Speaker 3: especially if you want to go for a six to two.

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Speaker 3: So I think think of our players that can rapidly

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Speaker 3: climb up the first choice ranks.

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Speaker 4: I think Fabian Holland. Look, he's a red hot chance

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Speaker 4: of being the starting lock for the All Blacks again.

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Speaker 4: It was only eighteen months ago as World Rugby Breakthrough

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Speaker 4: Player of the Year, was probably one of the All

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Speaker 4: Blacks best last year. He just physically he's a massive

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Speaker 4: units so shouldn't have any any trouble in that regard

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Speaker 4: and a great line out target. Prior to his injury

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Speaker 4: he was an eight minute player half the time as well,

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Speaker 4: even at Test level, so he's a real asset. To

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Speaker 4: get back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and looked pretty good for the forty minutes. I

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Speaker 3: saw a bit of that the other day Otago in

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Speaker 3: the Shield defense. That about does us rugby direct quick.

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Speaker 3: We've done Brad Moore leaving the Crusaders as an assistant coach,

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Speaker 3: We'll take on the Fiji and drew it job. So

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Speaker 3: he was sort of jostling with Scott Hanson by the

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Speaker 3: sound of it for that Crusader's job, deciding to go

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Speaker 3: abroad and take on newer pastures, warmer past years, probably

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Speaker 3: in Fiji.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the smiling assassin's buller buller. Yeah, it's a it's

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Speaker 4: a good gig. I think the Duror have a lot

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Speaker 4: of potential. I think they faded from mcburn to Glenn Jackson.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting to see what Brad Moore can get out

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Speaker 4: of them. He's vast experience. He's traveled with the Globe

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Speaker 4: and the Fiji national team of the concern at the moment.

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Speaker 4: So if you do well with the Duror, you rarely

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Speaker 4: put yourself in the shop window for their national team,

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Speaker 4: who got pumped a couple of times in November with

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Speaker 4: their surprising coaching change. So there's there's a real pathway

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Speaker 4: to progression there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so.

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Speaker 3: NBC also starts this weekend, looking forward to that getting underway.

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Speaker 3: I think it's Canterbury ranfully Shield Challenge not too far away.

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Speaker 2: So we look forward to that.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure that needs a mention. Africa Go Tigers,

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Speaker 4: always a big fan.

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Speaker 2: Look forward to NBC getting underway.

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Speaker 3: That does ust for what Rugby Direct where We're back

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Speaker 3: next week from South Africa. Perhaps earlier in the week

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Speaker 3: quanci Land or not once we land, but the day

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Speaker 3: after we land. Maybe might just get a get a

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Speaker 3: boots on the ground and get into a podcast.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, have a steak first.

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Speaker 2: By Bryan Steak.

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Speaker 3: Whatever, look forward to We'll catch you there from South Africa.

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Speaker 3: Thanks to Mark Kelly for producing and our thanks to

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Speaker 3: Access Solutions as well.

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Speaker 2: We'll see you in the Republic.

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Speaker 1: For more from News Talks ed B listen live on

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Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever

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Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.