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Speaker 1: This week on the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees,

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Speaker 1: the Wellington tech startup that's just raised eight point six

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Speaker 1: million dollars, giving it a one hundred million dollar valuation.

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Speaker 2: Project Works as gaining traction around the world with software

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Speaker 2: that helps consulting firms get the best out of their

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Speaker 2: teams and keep projects on track.

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Speaker 1: It's also doing very well tapping into the ecosystem of

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Speaker 1: another successful Wellington Bourne tech company, Zero. I'm Peter Griffin.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Ben Moore, and soon we'll be hearing from

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Speaker 2: Project Works co founder Matthew Hater and the company's new CEO,

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Speaker 2: Silicon Valley veteran Mark Ortungue.

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of conversations now with people about

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Speaker 3: New Zealand and they all start off with New Zealand

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Speaker 3: is amazing, and say, oh, have you been.

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Speaker 4: The same now?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 3: So there's this funny thing like they all know it's

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Speaker 3: amazing and they all love it that they've never been.

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Speaker 1: More from the Project Works crew soon, But first, Blue Sky,

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Speaker 1: the decentralized social network originally started by Twitter founder Jack Dorsey.

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Speaker 1: Well it's getting a surge of new signups at the moment,

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Speaker 1: including Ben and Me, Casey Newton, author of the Excellent

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Speaker 1: Platform and newsletter, goes inside that phenomenal growth to look

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Speaker 1: at some of the growing pains now hitting blue Sky,

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Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to content moderation. Newton writes that

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Speaker 1: the user base of blue Sky has gone up over

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Speaker 1: fifty percent since the company raised fifteen million dollars in

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Speaker 1: funding last month. That was from Blockchain Capital. The real growth, though,

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Speaker 1: has come in the wake of the US elections. The growth,

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Speaker 1: says Newton, has strained the limits of what its twenty

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Speaker 1: person core team and twenty five contract moderators are able

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Speaker 1: to do. So, Ben, we've both sort of bailed on

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Speaker 1: X some time ago. We congregate on LinkedIn, that's where

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Speaker 1: we get most traction, and talking to others like Chris

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Speaker 1: kill Tech reporter, a lot of journalists in New Zealand

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Speaker 1: who have done very well building a big presence on

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Speaker 1: X over the years, a lot of them are now

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Speaker 1: bailing out. What do you think is really driving this

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Speaker 1: other than just sort of anti Trump sentiment.

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Speaker 2: I think it's the actual platform itself. I've X has

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Speaker 2: just become kind of pointless to be there. There's just

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I go on there, I don't really

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Speaker 2: see anything in particular.

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Speaker 4: That excites me.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the stuff that used to crop up

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Speaker 2: that I thought was interesting, you know, links to news

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Speaker 2: for example, that's being buried now by the algorithm. I

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Speaker 2: tried out Threads for a while, but I found that

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Speaker 2: Threads was becoming like a story sharing service and it

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Speaker 2: was a bit more like a like a reddit. So

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Speaker 2: I kind of just fell off and I wasn't really

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Speaker 2: using a text based social media for a while. I

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Speaker 2: had signed up to Masteron and I had signed up

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Speaker 2: to blue Sky many moons ago, and so when I

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Speaker 2: start to hear that people were actually going on to the

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Speaker 2: Blue Sky and using it, I thought I'd check it

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Speaker 2: out again. And yeah, I've been really excited by what

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Speaker 2: I've seen. Actually, I think it's managing to recapture some

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Speaker 2: of that magic of the heyday of Twitter, and I

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Speaker 2: feel like I can trust it, to be honest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely does feel like sort of Twitter circus,

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Speaker 1: sort of twenty thirteen or something like that a long

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Speaker 1: time ago, very sort of stripped down, not very feature rich.

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Speaker 1: But in some ways that's a good thing. But I

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Speaker 1: think the key thing which you pointed to is just

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Speaker 1: the you know, the lack of engagement with quality sources

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Speaker 1: you get now and even trying to use it to

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Speaker 1: promote your work, which used to be a great place

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Speaker 1: for us to post our articles and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Damian Christie, a friend of mine, a science communicator. He

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Speaker 1: wrote on LinkedIn this week that the change and engagement

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Speaker 1: on X has been huge. He's got around ten thousand

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Speaker 1: followers on X, which you know, not insubstantial these days,

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Speaker 1: he says, a post there will attract nothing but tumble weeds.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they're not being seen because of

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Speaker 1: the algorithm or because none of the followers are really

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Speaker 1: there anymore. What I do know is that LinkedIn is

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Speaker 1: a great place for work industry chats, so he's getting

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Speaker 1: more traction there and that's I think the key thing

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Speaker 1: for me is you put something out there and the

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Speaker 1: engagement you used to get where a lot of people

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Speaker 1: would pile in and sometimes be critical, but there would

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Speaker 1: be a good, healthy debate. I'm seeing that going on

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Speaker 1: on X, but it's about highly polarized issues and real

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Speaker 1: sort of tropes like the Ukraine War, identity politics. It's

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Speaker 1: like the algorithm is really pushing everyone to these hot

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Speaker 1: button topics and that I think is people have Finally.

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Speaker 1: This has been going on for some time. It accelerated

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Speaker 1: with Elon Musk's takeover of Twitter and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people now going enough is enough and following the electioner

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Speaker 1: looking for something else. So maybe blue Sky is it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, there's this video made by a

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Speaker 2: YouTuber called cgp Gray and he's an excellent content creator

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Speaker 2: on YouTube, and he made this video a long time

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Speaker 2: ago about basically what drives engagement, and it used to

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Speaker 2: be called this video will Make You Angry. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if that's still the title of it, but he

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Speaker 2: talks about how, you know, people laughter or emotional connection

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Speaker 2: and all these kinds of things promote engagement, but that

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Speaker 2: anger is one of the greatest promoters of engagement.

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Speaker 4: And I think it.

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Speaker 2: Feels to me like X has really leaned into that

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Speaker 2: a lot. And it's something that I actively think about

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Speaker 2: when I'm online. If something is making me angry, I

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Speaker 2: intentionally try to push against that and not engage with it.

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Speaker 2: If I'm doing it in an intellectual way, that's okay,

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Speaker 2: But if I'm getting angry, I really try not to

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Speaker 2: because it's just creating this kind of shitty Internet that

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be a part of Yes.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of that, you know Corey doctor O, the Internet

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Speaker 1: advocate novelists. He famously labeled this the in shitification of

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Speaker 1: online platforms. Actually, here's Corey explaining it in a brilliant

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Speaker 1: essay topic he did on YouTube.

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Speaker 6: There's a kind of common pathology. So what platforms do

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Speaker 6: when they start out is they use their investor's capital

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Speaker 6: to allocate surpluses to users, making life good for those users,

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Speaker 6: luring them in, and then locking them in. Once those

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Speaker 6: users are locked in, all of that surplus is clawed

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Speaker 6: back and it's allocated to business customers, advertisers, publishers, platform sellers,

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Speaker 6: gig workers, creators or performers until all of those people

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Speaker 6: are locked in too. And then finally, once both sides

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Speaker 6: of this two sided market are locked in, the platform

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Speaker 6: scoops up all the surplus for itself. And I have

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Speaker 6: a somewhat notorious name for this that I coined. I

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Speaker 6: call it in shitification, and it's the reason that things

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Speaker 6: really are worse these days.

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Speaker 1: I guess the question now is how rivals like Blue

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Speaker 1: Sky and mastered On as well. Massed On is a

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Speaker 1: Feta verse. It's a collection of social networks. Blue Sky

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Speaker 1: is on an open protocol as well, so you can

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Speaker 1: take your social media content in theory and take it

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Speaker 1: to somewhere else. I don't think that in practice is

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Speaker 1: possible at the moment, but I really like the idea

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Speaker 1: of that, the fact that you don't have this really

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Speaker 1: aggressive algorithm manipulating everything. There's no advertising on it. But

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Speaker 1: it is a very small organization, only twenty people, twenty

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Speaker 1: five contract moderators. So how does this tiny organization, sure

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Speaker 1: it's had an influx of funding recently, avoid all the

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Speaker 1: pitfalls that we've seen with X.

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Speaker 2: Well, they have just announced that they're going to quadruple

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Speaker 2: that content moderation team to one hundred people now, specifically

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Speaker 2: to especially combat what they call sea SAM or child

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse content. And so that is a good news,

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Speaker 2: I think because being on the more protectionist side of

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Speaker 2: the inhabitants of this digital space is more of a

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Speaker 2: pleasant experience. And I think that if you are imagining

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Speaker 2: that X doesn't have strong moderation, then you're probably fooling

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Speaker 2: yourself actually, and I think that the moderation is just

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Speaker 2: in a different direction. Yeah, that this is just my

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Speaker 2: personal feelings, and you can call me a soft snowflake,

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Speaker 2: whatever you like. But honestly, you know, I've got a

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Speaker 2: whole life to live, and so when I go online,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to just be getting angry all the time,

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Speaker 2: or seeing negative staff or seeing arguments like sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: nice just to have a cool link to a science

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Speaker 2: story or pictures of space or whatever it is else

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Speaker 2: that you're into.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I'm probably a little sort of looser

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Speaker 1: on the content moderation. I'll tolerate a bit more, but

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Speaker 1: it's just become intolerable on it when it becomes unusable

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Speaker 1: in terms of it used to be where I got

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Speaker 1: my news. And because of the deprioritization of news of

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Speaker 1: mainstream news outlets anyway, you know, they seem to be

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Speaker 1: promoting podcasters and influencers, particularly conservative leaning one. So I'm

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Speaker 1: just greeted by them every time I go on X. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Guardian has just bailed out. All these

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Speaker 1: credible news outlets are not there, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: the weakness and Blue Sky and all of these alternatives.

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Speaker 1: At the moment is news is really important, but some

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Speaker 1: of these networks deprioritize news. For instance, threads. You know,

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Speaker 1: news is not very prominent on there. They are larry

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Speaker 1: about politics in the meta world as well. They've been

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Speaker 1: burned over that before, so you don't see a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of political discussion. Now, that's why blue Sky is great.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're interested in politics and news and current affairs,

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Speaker 1: and they seem to be more willing to facilitate that.

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Speaker 1: So I guess the question. Now it's getting traction. Blue

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Speaker 1: Sky twenty million odd users, grown fifty percent. Masterdon has

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Speaker 1: about nine million users. But will it just become a

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Speaker 1: sort of liberal leaning, sort of filter bubble and echo chamber.

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Speaker 1: This is what Ali Brellen, writing in the Atlantic this week,

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Speaker 1: sort of fears. She says, as the left flees and

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Speaker 1: X loses broader relevance, it becomes a more overtly right

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Speaker 1: wing site. But the right needs liberals on X. You

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Speaker 1: really do need a platform where people of all political

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Speaker 1: bents and ideologies come together to argue and to discuss

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Speaker 1: and share ideas. That's the digital town square that Eli

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Speaker 1: Musk supposedly is trying to foster. But we seem to

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Speaker 1: be going into these sort of echo chambers of liberal

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Speaker 1: or right leaning discourse. That's really not what social media

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Speaker 1: is about.

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Speaker 2: No, you're right, but at the same time, this is

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Speaker 2: what we've had for the last ten years of social

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Speaker 2: media anyway. But you know, if we think that one

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Speaker 2: social media platform is going to come along and be

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Speaker 2: the solution to everyone's problem, then I think you're probably dreaming.

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Speaker 2: You know, there is the left leaning stuff on blue Sky,

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Speaker 2: but also just the more neutral stuff absolutely that was

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Speaker 2: being lost on X just links to cool science stuff,

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Speaker 2: like I said before, just fun, neutral stuff that had

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Speaker 2: that just was dying or had died on X.

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Speaker 1: Actually the science feed on Blue Sky's great, you know,

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Speaker 1: so finally refreshingly just a bunch of credible news sources

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Speaker 1: giving you news.

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Speaker 2: So look for us on blue Sky. You can find

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Speaker 2: our handles in the show notes at business desk dot

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Speaker 2: co dot nz and I will post them on LinkedIn

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: Blue Sky is obviously doing very well the moment, but

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Speaker 1: let's face it, making a new social media platform of

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Speaker 1: financial success is going to be challenging to say the least,

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Speaker 1: which is why most of our tech companies going global

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Speaker 1: focus on B to B products and use cases, solving

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Speaker 1: a particular need for businesses that will pay a subscription

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Speaker 1: each month if you can make their lives easier or

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Speaker 1: win them new business.

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Speaker 2: Certainly the case with Wellington based project Works, which has

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Speaker 2: been around in its current form for five years and

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Speaker 2: solves a very specific problem for small to medium sized

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Speaker 2: consulting firms.

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Speaker 1: Which is cutting through the time consuming double handling and

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Speaker 1: expensive admin overheads that often plague those firms. You're dealing

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Speaker 1: primarily with charging for people's time billable hours, so you've

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Speaker 1: got to be super efficient in your admin maximizing the

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Speaker 1: productivity of the team, keeping projects on track.

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Speaker 2: Project Works is now helping over five hundred firms do that,

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Speaker 2: integrating with major platforms like HubSpot and Zero and making

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Speaker 2: aim at the US market under the guidance of its

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Speaker 2: new Silicon Valley based CEO, Mark Ortung.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Mark knows a fair bit about the consulting game

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Speaker 1: and how to run fast growing tech companies. He was

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Speaker 1: a founder of Necient, the US cloud service company acquired

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Speaker 1: by NTT in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 2: He was also the co founder and COO of bill

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Speaker 2: dot Com, a now very successful NASDAK listed company, and

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Speaker 2: he did nearly a decade at Accenture, one of the

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Speaker 2: world's largest consulting firms.

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Speaker 1: So I caught up with Mark and Matthew Hater, the

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Speaker 1: Project Works president and chief product officer, in Wellington recently

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Speaker 1: to find out more about the platform they've built and

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Speaker 1: the expansion that injection of investor cash now enables them

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Speaker 1: to pursue.

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Speaker 2: So he is Peter's interview with Mark Ortung and Matthew

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Speaker 2: Hater of Project.

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Speaker 1: Works and Mike, Welcome to the business of tech. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for coming on project Where. It's probably not

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Speaker 1: a company that the average ki we has heard of

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Speaker 1: in the same breath as even vand and zero, But

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Speaker 1: you've been chipping away for quite a long time now

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen the company was founded, but Matt take us back.

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Speaker 1: The origins of project Works actually lies a lot earlier,

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Speaker 1: back as far as what two thousand and.

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Speaker 7: One, Yeah, two thousand and one. You could definitely stretch

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Speaker 7: it back that far.

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Speaker 5: So in two thousand and eight I joined a consulting firm,

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Speaker 5: a Wellington based consulting firm called Provoke and where or

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Speaker 5: the team there had started to build up some internal

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Speaker 5: ip to run that consultancy. It was called Project Control

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Speaker 5: at the time. Fast forward to around twenty sixteen, I'd

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Speaker 5: been working there for a while, was ready to go and.

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Speaker 7: Sort of start a startup.

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Speaker 5: Got talking to the guys who ran Provoke and also Julian,

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Speaker 5: one of my now co founders, and we decided, hey,

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Speaker 5: we've got some pretty cool ip here, seems to be

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Speaker 5: a potential market for it. People were coming and going

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Speaker 5: from Provoke at the time saying, hey, you should go

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Speaker 5: and take this product to my previous employer, like they

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Speaker 5: need that desperately.

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Speaker 7: So we did a bit of work with NZTA, but a.

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Speaker 5: Market validation work and decided to start shipping away, rebuilding

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Speaker 5: the product as a SaaS platform, and then in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 5: when Provoked basically sold outright to private equity firm Bridge West,

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Speaker 5: Bridgewess kind of acquired Provoked stake and our company that

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Speaker 5: we'd founded, and then further sort of capitalized us, and

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Speaker 5: that's when we kind of really sort of started as

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Speaker 5: a real business. Transferred from us sort of a nights

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Speaker 5: and weekend's hobby to a company. Got Provoked on as

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Speaker 5: our first customer, so we properly separated the companies and

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Speaker 5: kind of did all of that and then kind of

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Speaker 5: got to work hiring, so we had some capital, started

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Speaker 5: really trying to achieve product market fit a little bit

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Speaker 5: more seriously, and.

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Speaker 1: What was the core of that product that you were

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Speaker 1: working on at the time when you came out of

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Speaker 1: Provoke That really obviously Bridge were saw a lot of

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Speaker 1: potential in.

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Speaker 5: So it started really as a time sheeting product you

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Speaker 5: alluded to back in two thousand and one. I think

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Speaker 5: that's where the first sort of line of code was

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Speaker 5: written when Provokes started an internal time shooting tool, and

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Speaker 5: then that expanded into kind of invoicing, resource planning, revenue forecasting,

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Speaker 5: really all the tools that you need to run a

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Speaker 5: consulting firm, and a lot of it sort of orientated

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Speaker 5: around sort of improving your margin and utilization. So Provoker

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Speaker 5: this great asset and kind of an edge for running

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Speaker 5: their consulting firm because they had such a great view

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Speaker 5: on the utilization of the team like pigs and troughs

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Speaker 5: for upcoming bench and margin, which ultimately drives any consulting firm.

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Speaker 7: So that's what we had.

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Speaker 5: Masoud who's the founder of Bridge West, he came in,

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Speaker 5: we talked to him. He had a background in services.

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Speaker 5: He kind of had that same kind of you know, yep,

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Speaker 5: I wish I had this back when I was running

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Speaker 5: consulting firms. Saw the potential, obviously liked us enough as

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Speaker 5: well to invest, and away we went.

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Speaker 1: Make When did you come on to seeing you joined

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Speaker 1: as CEO just this year in March, but have been

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Speaker 1: associated with the company before then.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I first I came into Provoke because one of

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Speaker 3: the folks who worked for me at my prior company, Nextcient,

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Speaker 3: which was a software outsourcing company, became CEO of Provoke.

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Speaker 3: This was probably three or four years ago now, and

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Speaker 3: he asked me to join the board of Provoke. So

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Speaker 3: that's how I got involved with Provoke, and I met

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Speaker 3: Masud and then Masud and Bridgewest run a conference every

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Speaker 3: summer in northern California.

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Speaker 4: And so two or three maybe three years.

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Speaker 3: Ago now, I met and Doug, one of the co founders,

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Speaker 3: Doug along with Matt, and I really liked them.

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Speaker 4: I liked the product.

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Speaker 3: And when I was at an Excient running I was

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Speaker 3: a services company. When I joined, we were about thirty

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Speaker 3: five million US and we grew up about one hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty million over a seven year period. And during

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Speaker 3: that time we had done the same thing. We needed

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Speaker 3: a product like this. We actually we tried a bunch

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Speaker 3: of stuff in the market. Our whole business was around

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Speaker 3: making software for other people with a great user experience,

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Speaker 3: which we had boiled down to this tagline, life's too

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Speaker 3: short for crappy software and all the stuff we tried.

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Speaker 3: We tried about three of the products in the market

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Speaker 3: at the time. They were all really crappy like they

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Speaker 3: were expensive, hard to use, and clunky. So we, like provoked,

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Speaker 3: started building our own and the team actually asked at

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Speaker 3: one point, can we turn it into multi tenant?

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Speaker 4: Can we take it out? So there was a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Of that idea and had I had done a bunch

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Speaker 3: of SaaS companies previously, and I knew how they needed

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Speaker 3: to be capitalized, and we were a consulting firm turning

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Speaker 3: a profit, so we never went down that path. But

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Speaker 3: I felt the pain of as effectively as a customer

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Speaker 3: looking for a platform like this. So when I met

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Speaker 3: Matt and Doug at the conference and I saw their

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Speaker 3: product and saw what they were doing, I could tell

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Speaker 3: very quickly that it was a good fit and that

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Speaker 3: there's just and we've now done a lot of market researchers,

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Speaker 3: literally tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of consulting

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Speaker 3: firms they.

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Speaker 4: Need this product. So yeah, I was excited to get involved.

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Speaker 3: I actually went and approached Matt and Doug and asked

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Speaker 3: to be on the board, and we spent a little

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Speaker 3: bit of time kind of getting to know each other,

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Speaker 3: and so that was roughly two years ago that I

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Speaker 3: joined the board.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd think you consulting firms. The US is the

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Speaker 1: heart of those sorts of businesses. You think, you know,

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Speaker 1: a Silicon Valley starter would have this covered. But yet again,

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Speaker 1: like with zero and cloud based accounting software vanned with

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Speaker 1: invoicing and receipts and all that sort of thing, a

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Speaker 1: gap in the market there that wasn't being served well

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Speaker 1: out of North America.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there are Silicon Valley startups that went

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Speaker 3: after this, and like most Silicon Valley startups, they got

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Speaker 3: pulled into going up market and they did sort of

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Speaker 3: the prior version of startups, which was build features to

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Speaker 3: sell the product, not to make a great user experience,

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Speaker 3: not to make something that's a joy to use. So

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Speaker 3: there are products out there that are you know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of them will not call you back unless you

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Speaker 3: have five hundred employees in your firm or more, and

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Speaker 3: most of them are not a joy to use. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so there is this gap I believe in the market

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Speaker 3: for us, which is really for small and mid market

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Speaker 3: consultancies who need something simple, something powerful and easy to use.

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Speaker 1: And take us through. You are working with all the

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Speaker 1: big sort of platforms that consulting firms or any business

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Speaker 1: might be using, the likes of hubspotob Zero and many more.

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Speaker 1: So how do you integrate into all of these sort

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Speaker 1: of platforms that are likely to sit at the height

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Speaker 1: of a consulting business or other type of business.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I mean, we have a lot of discussions

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Speaker 5: around where the demarcation points for our product should be,

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Speaker 5: and today anyway and for the foreseeable future, we've decided

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Speaker 5: that we should sit with accounting on one side, CRM

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Speaker 5: on the other side, and task management also kind of

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Speaker 5: in the middle because those problems are largely solved. There

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Speaker 5: are household names and all of those categories already, so

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Speaker 5: there's no point in us trying to go and take

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Speaker 5: on you know, zero and QuickBooks or hubs and Salesforce

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Speaker 5: head on like those are pretty good, solid products, but

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Speaker 5: there's this massive white space in the middle. So, you know,

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Speaker 5: we've worked really hard on our relationship with starting in

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Speaker 5: New Zealand with the likes of Zero. A good chunk

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Speaker 5: of our customer base are also zero customers, ensuring that

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Speaker 5: we have the best integration there. So Project Works does

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Speaker 5: a lot of things, like a lot of our current

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Speaker 5: or our prospective customer base coming and they use multiple

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Speaker 5: point solutions or spreadsheets to kind of make this up.

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Speaker 5: So we're trying to take that kind of middle area

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Speaker 5: that is made up of these kind of cobble together

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Speaker 5: solutions and then integrate with the problems that are already solved,

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Speaker 5: like the CRM and the accounting side, and then largely

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Speaker 5: some of the task management side, like jerror in particular

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Speaker 5: is quite dominant too, So trying to create an experience

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Speaker 5: that's really seamless between all those systems. You know, we've

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Speaker 5: just brought on some of Mark's old team up in

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Speaker 5: the Valley who have a huge amount of experience building

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Speaker 5: integrations at a really high level, so they've come in

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Speaker 5: and sort of started to build out some of that.

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Speaker 5: So it's a very sort of seamless experience. You can

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Speaker 5: just operate in side project Works and your information is

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Speaker 5: just kind of flowing sort of seamlessly between the systems.

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Speaker 1: That's great. So it's using APIs as something to transfer

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Speaker 1: all of that data into project works.

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Speaker 7: That's right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So most of the integrations are sort of API based,

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Speaker 5: and then we have kind of taskers that are sort

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Speaker 5: of auto edically sinking and calling out to external APIs

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Speaker 5: and bringing data in or sending data out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that white space in the middle you talk about,

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Speaker 1: it is clearly an area where's a lot of demand

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Speaker 1: for you know, this year, you've raised five million dollars

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Speaker 1: US at a valuation of one hundred million dollars New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: I read somewhere that your revenue has grown something like

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Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy percent in the last year.

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Speaker 3: There was one number out there, so we were in

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Speaker 3: the ink five thousand, number five five seven, and that's

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Speaker 3: a three year measurement. That was seven ninety eight, So

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Speaker 3: just under eight hundred percent over three years last year.

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Speaker 3: I don't know the exact number, it's roughly eighty percent.

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Speaker 7: Yeah wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So and and if this is not you were

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Speaker 1: talking about, you know, the some of those startups been

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Speaker 1: a bit too high end. You know, it was an

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Speaker 1: expensive product. I didn't want to talk to you unless

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Speaker 1: you had five hundred employees. I mean, this is not

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Speaker 1: a super expensive product or something like forty bucks a

439
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: month per user. So and there's no real sort of

440
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: limitation on the low end as to how many users

441
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: you can have in a consulting business that can take

442
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: advantage of this very much like democratizing it in the

443
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: way that Rogerie did with accounting software.

444
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, so we've found, like with a lot of the

445
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 5: features and project whereas, you don't really need a product

446
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 5: like ours until you're around ten around ten users, So

447
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 5: we typically work over that ten. Like you know, if

448
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 5: you're a new kind of consulting firm and you've got

449
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 5: kind of rapid growth ambitions and absolutely, you know, we

450
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 5: take those those customers on as well. But it's really

451
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 5: sort of once you get to that ten fifteen where

452
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 5: you have challenges with resource planning as the founder, you

453
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 5: no longer just know what everybody's doing. That's when Project

454
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 5: Works really starts to shine, I think. But we haven't

455
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 5: really found like a top end of user kind of

456
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 5: limitation yet. We've got customers with a few hundred users

457
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 5: and they're working really well too.

458
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

459
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 3: One of the things I'm most proud of is that

460
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 3: if you look across we're over five hundred consulting firms

461
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 3: using the product. Now, if you look across that base,

462
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 3: they're growing on average about twenty percent a year, which

463
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 3: is not typical for like I come from Naxian and

464
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 3: a lot of people that I worked with went off

465
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: into other consulting firms and that has been rough in

466
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: consulting for the last one to two years. And there

467
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: are not a lot of firms growing at that twenty

468
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: plus percent. So having the whole five hundred of them average,

469
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 3: that is pretty amazing. We've got a great group of customers.

470
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: They're thriving. Hopefully we're helping them do more of that.

471
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: And are you seeing interest at the sort of the

472
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: top end of town the deloittes into PWCs and the

473
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: extenture is do they typically build their own bespoke systems

474
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: to do this sort of collaboration and project work or

475
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: are they on your radar as well?

476
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 7: They are.

477
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, so we've got a fantastic sort of partner channel

478
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 5: and we do a lot of work just generally with

479
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 5: partners who maybe ranging from just referring us leads through

480
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 5: to doing full implementations. And yeah, we have various conversations

481
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 5: going on kind of across all spectrum of size consultancies.

482
00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 7: I would say, yeah.

483
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've come on board as CEO. You knew the

484
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: company quite well and the founding team. What's it like

485
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: representing a New Zealand founded company in the US. Obviously,

486
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: they customers don't really care. They just want to use

487
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: to deliver a great product. But are there any nuances

488
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: about having a team here as well as sort of

489
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: the sales and marketing and all of that in the US.

490
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been for me, it's a lot of fun.

491
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 3: I'm really enjoying putting the two cultures together. Some of

492
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: the you know, the language, you get nuances where there

493
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: will be moments where I think I know every word

494
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 3: that was put together in a sentence, but I have

495
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: no idea what the sentence means. So even though we're

496
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 3: both speaking English, there's a lot of colloquial that I

497
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: don't necessarily get. I'm learning it quickly, so that for

498
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: me is fun. But in the US people are quite

499
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 3: open to hearing that we have this product with five

500
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 3: hundred plus customers that's well proven, but they haven't heard

501
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 3: of it because we've been in primarily Australia, New Zealand

502
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 3: in terms of our customer base, and then we tell them,

503
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 3: you know, we're about thirty thirty five US customers today,

504
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: so it's not that there's no one there, and we've

505
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 3: proven that the way consulting firms work is pretty much

506
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: the same. And we're really in five countries, so in

507
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: addition to those three, we're in Canada and the UK,

508
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 3: and we get pulled into the UK just because zero

509
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: is so strong there, so we just you know, we're

510
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 3: not actually on the ground with salespeople in the UK,

511
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 3: but we're getting demand anyway.

512
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 4: Which is also fun.

513
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 3: So one of the other things is not necessarily key

514
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 3: we but being a company of our size, we're about

515
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 3: forty some people, we're effectively a multinational selling in five countries,

516
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: and we're now set up as a US company. Matt

517
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: and I both spend a little more time than we'd

518
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: care too with sort of the lawyers and accountants working

519
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: out how you deal with being a global company that

520
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: I think most companies don't get to that until way,

521
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 3: way long later in the gross cycle. So that's been

522
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: interesting as well, but I think that'll be a real

523
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 3: strength for us. There's also kind of just some funny

524
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: things about Americans with New Zealand. So I have a

525
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: lot of conversations now with people about New Zealand and

526
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: they all start off with New Zealand is amazing, And

527
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 3: I'll say, oh, have you been? They say no, Like

528
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: you know, so there's this funny thing like they all

529
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: know it's amazing and they all love it, but they've

530
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: never been. It's I'm not sure why those two go together,

531
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: but it's it is.

532
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 5: I think maybe the amount of Lord of the Rings

533
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,719
Speaker 5: kind of references I've had speaking with your customers and prospects.

534
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 7: It's like, oh yeah, beautiful Lord.

535
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 5: Of the Rings.

536
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's it like for you?

537
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 4: Met?

538
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: Because you know, the sort of the mancha really for

539
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: New Zealand startups is go to North America as soon

540
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: as possible, particularly for a product like this, that's where

541
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: the biggest market is. Get in there early. But then

542
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: if you're in the zero ecosystem, it makes sense really

543
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: leverage that huge customer base we have in New Zealand

544
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: and Australia where you can sort of test the market,

545
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: test the water. How did you sort of approach that

546
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: knowing that ultimately this is a product that you'll want

547
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: to take on the US with but trying to find

548
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: your feet here with the project works first, I think

549
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: you have.

550
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 5: To have a rarely large vision, but you need to

551
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 5: start acting kind of a little bit more tactical there. Right,

552
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 5: So the US market for US is great, it's English

553
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 5: speaking culturally, Like, there are differences, but they're not that

554
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 5: big from a product perspective as well. You know, we

555
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 5: don't deal with things like tax or payroll, which are

556
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 5: traditionally quite different in country to countries.

557
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 7: You know, like if you look at something.

558
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 5: Like zero, their products has to be very different in

559
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 5: the US market to deal with tax. Everything we do

560
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 5: is the same Australia, New Zealand, US with some subtle differences,

561
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 5: you know, Z's versus ESSES is kind of kind of

562
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 5: being a little bit facetious, but it's kind of the

563
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 5: extent of the difference. So you need to have a

564
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 5: vision and an addressable market for where you want to

565
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 5: get to, but you need to start.

566
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 7: Sort of operating tactically. So that's kind of what we did.

567
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 5: We went all in on kind of zero Australia and

568
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 5: now more recently we're starting to work more into the US.

569
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 5: But we knew from the start, like we weren't doing

570
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 5: anything locally that was going to box us in and

571
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 5: prevent us from getting into the US market.

572
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, even sort of legal stuff. I mean that's not

573
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: dealt with in Project works. Better is that that will

574
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: be dealt with on one of those other platforms that

575
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: you integrate with.

576
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 4: That's right.

577
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 5: They dealt with all the hard problems and we're just

578
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 5: right on their coattails.

579
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: So you should have designed it for immediate and sort

580
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: of easy uptake in other markets.

581
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

582
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 5: I mean it's multi currency. It's not multi lingual yet,

583
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: but that will come in time. But just having the

584
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 5: multi currency and not dealing with X payroll integrating really

585
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 5: well with those systems obviously, but we don't have to

586
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 5: solve those headaches. It means we're very well suited for

587
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 5: global global mark Mike.

588
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: You know, this year really has been the year of

589
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: real uptake of generative AI based products, the year of

590
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: co pilot from Microsoft. I just came back from Silicon Valley,

591
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: the likes of Salesforce and Microsoft as well, and now

592
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: talking about the era of AI agents moving beyond just

593
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: a chatbot to something that you can set tasks to do,

594
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: will automate things on your behalf interesting your perspective on

595
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: how project works fits into this your strategy around AI.

596
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: Are we going to get to a point where project

597
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: works agent is going to be talking to an M

598
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: YOB or a zero agent.

599
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 7: Yeah?

600
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 4: Fascinating stuff, isn't it.

601
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: I think for US, AI presents a huge opportunity because

602
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: there's if you look across sort of the workflows the

603
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: consultancies go through every know, all the way from the

604
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: beginning of looking to get new clients, signing them up,

605
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: getting their projects specified, delivering the projects, and then getting

606
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 3: paid All throughout there, there's all sorts of tasks that

607
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 3: are document heavy and mostly sort of a ministrivia that

608
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: people don't want to do. So we see AI tools

609
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 3: within project works really making those easier and lowering.

610
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: The amount of labor required.

611
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 3: In the near term, I think you'll still want a

612
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: human touch, so but you know, take a look at

613
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 3: something before it goes to the client. Maybe in the

614
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 3: longer run, agents will just completely interact on your behalf.

615
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: But I think because most of our clients are consultancies

616
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: or engineers or architecture firms, they have a sort of

617
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: a high production value and a high touch with their clients.

618
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 3: I think they're just going to want to check it.

619
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: They're going to want to look at it. So it'll

620
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: be creating a lot of things for them, which makes

621
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: their lives easier. But I don't know if at least

622
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 3: not into twenty five. I don't think they'll just be saying, yeah,

623
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 3: just send it without me even looking at it.

624
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 4: We'll see.

625
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: So what's your strategy map in terms of development and

626
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: around integrating AI. Have you been experimenting with large language

627
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: models and generative AI?

628
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 7: Yes?

629
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 5: So, I think a big part of what we'll win

630
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 5: I think with products like ours with AI is the data.

631
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 5: You know, we're not building our own LM or anything

632
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 5: like that, but we do have a lot of data.

633
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 5: So we're running we're kind of running proof of concepts

634
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 5: and to like more sort of point parts at the

635
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 5: moment to test you know what sort of quality we

636
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 5: can get out and where we think the opportunities are.

637
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 5: So some examples would be spinning up a new resourcing

638
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 5: team and knowing like the right resource you should have, right,

639
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 5: so a statement of work comes in. You've got to

640
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 5: spin up a team. What availability do I have, what

641
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 5: skills do I need? What kind of mix of team? Members,

642
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: like they need a junior.

643
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 7: What personalities work well together, all of.

644
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 5: These kind of factors, and ideally having a some sort

645
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 5: of AI agent that can spin up that team. So

646
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 5: that's one example of a concept that we're working on.

647
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 5: Also analysis of your current workforce, how satisfied or what

648
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 5: sort of churn risk they are, Right, you can use

649
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 5: all these like minor heuristics, like somebody might have been

650
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 5: really good in time they're doing their timesheets and now

651
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 5: they've kind of started to slack off a bit, or

652
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 5: someone takes like a lot of leave, or someone's working

653
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 5: with other people.

654
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 4: That have left.

655
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 7: But there's all this the otter that.

656
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 5: You can use AI to sort of suggest like, hey,

657
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 5: maybe you should check in with this person. They could

658
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 5: potentially be.

659
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 7: Unhappy or at risk or whatever. So there's kind of a.

660
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 5: Few sort of point bits we're doing well at the

661
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 5: same time where we're doing a lot in the integration

662
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 5: space as well as like you've kind of alluded to,

663
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 5: and we want to be able to be kind of

664
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 5: an insights engine for your consultancy.

665
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 7: So you've got to get data and be able to

666
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 7: say like, hey, we.

667
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 5: Think you are charging your margins are not quite high

668
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 5: enough on this project, you should up your rates for

669
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 5: this particular resource because we think that's actually probably more

670
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 5: fair and you're not going to lose customers because of it,

671
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 5: and so being able to be like a project management

672
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 5: co pilot. So we're kind of, you know, testing away

673
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 5: like various things, and it's probably been all the proof

674
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 5: of concept stage at the moment. Yeah, I know if

675
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 5: you'd add anything to that mark any of the others.

676
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 5: There's a lot of little bits and a lot of

677
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 5: ideas being kind of played with.

678
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, quite a few ideas. I think.

679
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 3: Also the other thing that we can do when I

680
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: go out and talk to customers about it, they're often

681
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: experimenting with some of the models that are out there

682
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 3: in public and playing with us. We can select the

683
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 3: best model for each given task and really make sure

684
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: we're tuning it and getting the prompts really well executed.

685
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 3: And so that will in a funny way, that alone

686
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 3: takes away some labor around the consultancies who today might

687
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: be going to an open AI and trying to engineer

688
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 3: their own prompt to get it to do something, and

689
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 3: then we'll just bring it in as part of our

690
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 3: product to generate a given document and then once it's

691
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: generated and accepted, we have all the metadata and just

692
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: goes right into our system, right, so we can help

693
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 3: them tune it and we can help them sort of

694
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 3: integrate it right into our flow. And that's ultimately where

695
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 3: a lot of our value is is that we have

696
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 3: that backbone of data and everything flows into there, and

697
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: then whenever they get to the next task and the

698
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: next one, we have it all in a structured way.

699
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 4: It's great.

700
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: How do you do that sort of comparative to give

701
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: a consulting firm an idea of how their rights are

702
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: comparing to others out there in the market. Do you

703
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: do you somehow and put that data from market sources.

704
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 5: So yeah, there's a lot of work for us to do,

705
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 5: especially on the kind of security and legality side here.

706
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 5: So any of this is really just perfect accept at

707
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 5: the moment. I think the way that it will shack

708
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 5: down is it will need to be an opt in

709
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 5: system for our customers. Obviously, they own their data and

710
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 5: that's you know, the data we have is incredibly important

711
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 5: to their business, right, So I think the technology stream

712
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:19,959
Speaker 5: is kind of running is one part, but we're also

713
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 5: running unfortunately, like a more time of lawyers. But you know,

714
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 5: it's just as important of a piece to this puzzle

715
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 5: ensuring that the data is protected. And if we do

716
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 5: start using production data on third party language models and things,

717
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 5: you know we're doing that in a in a safe

718
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 5: and secure way.

719
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really important. But yeah, I guess if you

720
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 1: use it in an anonymized way, it's going to provide

721
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: really good insights to Project works customers as well. They

722
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: know that they're getting real world, accurate comparisons for their rates.

723
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 7: That's right.

724
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, So there's kind of two like for this kind

725
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 5: of comparison data, there's kind of alluded to two key

726
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 5: ways you can go. You can sort of stack rank

727
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 5: and test against competitors if you wanted to, and there's

728
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 5: pretty good guidance, Like there's a company called SPI that

729
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 5: puts out the SPI Consulting Report, So couple one hundred

730
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 5: page document on just kind of the general consulting industry

731
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 5: trends and where margins should be and how you sort

732
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 5: of stack rank. So that data's readily available out there.

733
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 5: So there's a way that we can kind of build

734
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 5: all of that in I say, customers wanted to get

735
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 5: an idea of how they ranked against sort of a standard,

736
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 5: but didn't necessarily want to have their data shared in

737
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 5: a comparison with other companies.

738
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: So Matte, you've transitioned to a role of what president

739
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: and chief product officer. That's right, Mike, you're in the

740
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: hot seat as CEO. You've just raised five million bucks.

741
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: That's great. What does that now allow you to do

742
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: and what's your sort of vision for the sort of

743
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: the next twelve months for the company.

744
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:52,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

745
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: So one of the big things we've done is we've

746
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 3: opened up a development and product team in the Bay Area.

747
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 3: So as Matt mentioned, we've hired several people I've worked

748
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: with before in a company called bill dot com, which

749
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 3: was a fintech offering for small mid market businesses. So

750
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: they have a really good idea architecturally what we need

751
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 3: to do, and they also understand this integration play. So

752
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: one of the things I think they'll help us do

753
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 3: is just speed up our ability to move and add

754
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 3: to the product and keep making more valuable for our customers.

755
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 4: So I'm excited about that.

756
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 3: We've also grown our sales team in the US and

757
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 3: we've begun doing a lot of work in the US market,

758
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 3: so getting a lot of feedback, a lot of conversations,

759
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 3: and we've begun adding US customers at a faster clip

760
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 3: as well. So those are probably the two big things

761
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 3: we're doing. And then just broadly speaking here in Wellington,

762
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: we've grown the team pretty significantly, both on the go

763
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: to market side and on the product and engineering side.

764
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: So those also help us go faster on the pre

765
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 3: and I think it'll help us go faster in the APEC, Australia,

766
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 3: New Zealand markets, so broad them, you know, more product

767
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 3: stuff faster, and then getting out too the market faster

768
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 3: as well.

769
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: Watch you sort of outlook for business. I mean, we've

770
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: come through in New Zealand it's a sort of a

771
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: tough recession, but still not out of it yet. The

772
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: US market, it seems to be a bit more buoyant

773
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: for consulting. Is that a business that when times are tough,

774
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: are looking for these sorts of solutions to get more

775
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 1: efficiency into their business.

776
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 3: Definitely, And I think one thing that I've seen throughout

777
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: my career when times are tough, there are a lot

778
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 3: of smaller companies getting started. People get laid off from

779
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 3: the big companies and then they just you know, out

780
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: of necessity, we'll go out and create new firms. And

781
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 3: so you'll see a lot of these ten twenty person

782
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 3: consultancies getting into the market and they don't necessarily have

783
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 3: the background in it, so they love to have a

784
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: platform like ours. In addition to the software, we're doing

785
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: a lot of work on just kind of giving back

786
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 3: to the community we have. I think we did the

787
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 3: math and it's like one hundred and forty five years

788
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 3: of experience in consulting in our group, and so we've

789
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 3: been writing a lot about that on our website and

790
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 3: our blogs, and we've launched the Project Works Academy, which

791
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: is a set of free courses you can take on

792
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 3: how to differentiate your firm, how to scale your firm.

793
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 3: So as a lot of people are jumping into consulting

794
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 3: for the first time, we're trying to help them just

795
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 3: you know, with the models of how do you run

796
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 3: a small consultancy, not even necessarily our software, just how

797
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 3: do you run a consultancy? And it kind of goes

798
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 3: with our overall approach, which is we want to help

799
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 3: these firms grow. We want to be the place they

800
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: go to learn how to grow and then to give

801
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 3: them the tools that they need over time.

802
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: So this is not what those in the industry would

803
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: call a sexy product. You know, sometimes we can get

804
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: a little repped up in these cool exciting stuff like

805
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 2: you know, Open Stars, Fusion Energy.

806
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: Production, but or Halter or Hold Yeah exactly, which which actually,

807
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: you know, just amazing. The businesses coverage this week of

808
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: how much revenue Halter is doing for fantastic hanging collars

809
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: around Cow's nix.

810
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: And creation and number one on the Deloitte Fast fifty

811
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: this year fifteen hundred percent year on year increase in revenue,

812
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: which is just astounding. But something like this which is

813
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 2: kind of you know, not overly exciting, but just if

814
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: you can do it right and you can get it

815
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: in the you know, the most user interface friendly way,

816
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: and you can get that adoption and that excitement for

817
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: those people who it's for, these consultants, then you can

818
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 2: just have a really massively runaway successful business like we

819
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 2: saw with zero.

820
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: Yeah and fast growing as well. They're also on the

821
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: Fast fifty, not not up there with with Halter, but

822
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: definitely making it onto that list, so growing revenue quickly,

823
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: which is great too. I think really interesting things about

824
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: them one is that again tapping into that ecosystem approach,

825
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: and Zero is at the heart of it. So as

826
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: Mike pointed out, there they've got customers in the UK.

827
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: They don't really have any staff there, but they've got

828
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: a lot of customers, so that is going to be

829
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: important to service. And it's off the back of Zero

830
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: being so strong in the UK market. So people in

831
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: consulting firms are using that for their accounting and they're

832
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: going but I need to do project management and I

833
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: need to keep an eye on the productivity of my

834
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: team of consultants. This can plug into zero as well

835
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: as other platforms as well, and I think that's been

836
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: so successful for you know, obviously for Zero building at

837
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: Eco system and all the New Zealand startups that have

838
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: tapped into that. So that's hugely valuable. And the other

839
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: thing is just where we're at in the economic cycle.

840
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: As Mike pointed out, he's been in the consulting game

841
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: for a long time and in tough times you see

842
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: people go out on their own, sometimes they get laid

843
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: off and they set up consultancies. You know, three or

844
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: four really smart people who get together and build a

845
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: consulting firm and and do quite well. But as that

846
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: starts to grow, all the complexity they had in their

847
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: own business starts to creep in and they need to

848
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: deal with that admin because ultimately, the thing about consulting

849
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: is you've got a limited number of hours per week

850
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: times the number of people that you've got in that business,

851
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 1: and if you chew up two or three hours even

852
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 1: a week, that's you know, thousands of dollars potentially you're

853
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: not you know, billing to customers. So this is actually

854
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: it's not particularly sexy, but this is solving a real

855
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: problem for quite a lucrative part of the you know,

856
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: the tech market, or even other types of consulting. It

857
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: might be legal, it might be business consulting. This is

858
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: this is really important to get right.

859
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And you know, if you can do it

860
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: really well at that small to medium size level and

861
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: then you can start to scale that out on a

862
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: massive level, there's no shortage of market and there's going

863
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: to be the the case where when you get that reputation,

864
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: the moment a new player comes on or like you say,

865
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 2: one of these people goes off and does it themselves,

866
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: it's going to be the first thing they think of

867
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: is to go to Project Works and use them for

868
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: that side of the business.

869
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they got forty staff. At the moment, Mark

870
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 1: will be based it is based in Silicon Valley building

871
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: out a team there. He's getting people on board that

872
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: he trusts from his previous track record at bill dot

873
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: com and the likes thirty five customers in the US.

874
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: So you can see the potential growth opportunity they have there.

875
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: That's why Bridge West has led this round, invested this money,

876
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: and they see a lot of upside here. So I

877
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: think this is going to be a fascinating one to watch.

878
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: To see this company, it's five years old, it's really

879
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 1: established itself as a quality software maker in this part

880
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: of the world. Now we're going to see, hopefully in

881
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: the next couple of years, how this key we startup

882
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: is going to really ten x what they do in

883
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: particularly in the North American market.

884
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

885
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: So that's it for another episode of the Business of Tech.

886
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: Thanks very much to Mark Ortungu and Matthew Hater from

887
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: Project Works. We'll keep a close eye on their progress.

888
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and let us know what you think of Blue

889
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: Sky and how you're dealing with the in sertification of

890
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 2: online platforms like x and Facebook forever.

891
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, there's got to be somewhere other than LinkedIn

892
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: worth hanging out. Show notes for the Business of Tech

893
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: are in the podcast section at www dot Businessdesk, dot

894
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: co dot nz, where you can stream the podcast in

895
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: full every week. It's also available from iHeartRadio with your

896
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: podcast platform of choice.

897
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: Get in touch with your feedback and we'd love to

898
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: hear your suggestions for upcoming guests. Email me on Ben

899
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: at Business Desk dot Co, dot and z and add

900
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: me on Blue Sky because I am actively looking for

901
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: people to follow and engage with, so please do follow

902
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:56,959
Speaker 2: that link.

903
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: That's it for this week. Another episode coming your way

904
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: next Thursday.

905
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 2: Until then, have a great week.

906
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 4: Yahm