1 00:00:09,133 --> 00:00:12,892 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from newstalks'd be follow this 2 00:00:13,093 --> 00:00:16,213 Speaker 1: and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,773 --> 00:00:20,012 Speaker 2: The demonization, I mean that's my own words, demonization of 4 00:00:20,093 --> 00:00:24,213 Speaker 2: video games. But clearly a huge industry, hugely popular. It's 5 00:00:24,293 --> 00:00:25,613 Speaker 2: a new form of entertainment. 6 00:00:25,773 --> 00:00:29,652 Speaker 3: Yeah. Of the seventeen biggest Internet usage spikes this year 7 00:00:30,213 --> 00:00:33,333 Speaker 3: in New Zealand, fourteen, we're for the video game Fortnite. 8 00:00:33,412 --> 00:00:33,973 Speaker 4: Yeah. 9 00:00:34,093 --> 00:00:36,973 Speaker 3: So Fortnite is an online video game and game platform 10 00:00:36,973 --> 00:00:40,173 Speaker 3: that was released in twenty and seventeen where you get 11 00:00:40,452 --> 00:00:43,772 Speaker 3: dropped into an island and you try and kill everyone 12 00:00:43,853 --> 00:00:48,292 Speaker 3: and be the last person alive as a circle descends 13 00:00:48,333 --> 00:00:50,252 Speaker 3: on you. Involves a lot of building and stuff. It's 14 00:00:50,333 --> 00:00:54,773 Speaker 3: quite complicated, but it's huge, hugely popular. Certainly is Yeah, 15 00:00:54,973 --> 00:00:57,813 Speaker 3: video games, you know, are they bad for you? Because 16 00:00:57,813 --> 00:00:59,853 Speaker 3: there have been some studies saying that there's some cognitive 17 00:00:59,893 --> 00:01:02,053 Speaker 3: advantages of video games, and I know that the text 18 00:01:02,093 --> 00:01:04,453 Speaker 3: machine's blown up saying that they don't believe any studies, 19 00:01:04,853 --> 00:01:08,133 Speaker 3: but you know, all studies are worth looking at and questioning. 20 00:01:08,453 --> 00:01:11,773 Speaker 3: There's also been some studies that say that in terms 21 00:01:11,813 --> 00:01:13,853 Speaker 3: of surgery, kids that have spent a lot of times 22 00:01:13,853 --> 00:01:17,693 Speaker 3: on video games end up being better surgeons. But Lance 23 00:01:17,773 --> 00:01:21,413 Speaker 3: Barnett bernet It was the national advisor for New Zealand 24 00:01:21,453 --> 00:01:25,333 Speaker 3: Police crisis negotiation teams. He specialized in suicide intervention, on 25 00:01:25,453 --> 00:01:28,892 Speaker 3: predicting violent behavior, and on managing high risk incidents as 26 00:01:28,973 --> 00:01:32,093 Speaker 3: a negotiation instructor. He has written two excellent books, The 27 00:01:32,173 --> 00:01:34,932 Speaker 3: Dark Side of the Brain in twenty twenty and Anxiety 28 00:01:34,932 --> 00:01:38,413 Speaker 3: as a Worry, which was released in September this year. Hey, Larrence, 29 00:01:38,453 --> 00:01:40,732 Speaker 3: welcome the show. We're talking about video games now. In 30 00:01:40,773 --> 00:01:42,973 Speaker 3: your latest book, you had some advice on getting kids 31 00:01:43,013 --> 00:01:46,012 Speaker 3: off devices that I think would also work for kids 32 00:01:46,013 --> 00:01:48,613 Speaker 3: in video games. You don't believe you get a lot 33 00:01:48,613 --> 00:01:52,613 Speaker 3: of success demanding kids or forcing kids to get off devices. 34 00:01:52,653 --> 00:01:54,733 Speaker 3: How do you suggest getting kids to spend less time 35 00:01:54,773 --> 00:01:58,093 Speaker 3: on the things we believe to be unhealthy for them? 36 00:01:58,613 --> 00:02:00,973 Speaker 4: Well, it depends a lot. Thanks for the opportunity. It 37 00:02:01,013 --> 00:02:03,053 Speaker 4: depends a lot on the type of game that the 38 00:02:03,613 --> 00:02:06,053 Speaker 4: person is on and whether they're actually accepted to it. 39 00:02:06,333 --> 00:02:08,893 Speaker 4: So some games are great. As you talked about cognitive 40 00:02:08,933 --> 00:02:13,453 Speaker 4: abilities socialization, a lot of people, you know, those with 41 00:02:13,533 --> 00:02:17,573 Speaker 4: autism and ADHD. It brings focus, et cetera. But there's 42 00:02:17,733 --> 00:02:20,093 Speaker 4: just the opposite of that. So it depends on what 43 00:02:20,133 --> 00:02:21,893 Speaker 4: study you look at. There's a study that I looked 44 00:02:21,893 --> 00:02:26,333 Speaker 4: at twelve thousand teenagers studied by Oxford University found that 45 00:02:26,573 --> 00:02:30,532 Speaker 4: forty four percent of heavy gamers had high well being, 46 00:02:30,853 --> 00:02:34,173 Speaker 4: but that worries only about the other fifty six percent, right, 47 00:02:34,252 --> 00:02:37,813 Speaker 4: So that means they haven't. So you can study you know, 48 00:02:37,893 --> 00:02:41,013 Speaker 4: what is it. There's lies down lies, and then there's statistics. 49 00:02:41,093 --> 00:02:45,493 Speaker 4: So looking at gaming gaming depends on the person itself. Now, 50 00:02:45,493 --> 00:02:49,573 Speaker 4: there's types of games that we can wean people off 51 00:02:49,853 --> 00:02:52,933 Speaker 4: and onto. So the games that are highly addictive are 52 00:02:53,013 --> 00:02:57,573 Speaker 4: those hugely interactive, Grand Theft Auto, all of those, you know, 53 00:02:57,733 --> 00:03:00,933 Speaker 4: the violent type games. Anything that engages us, and we 54 00:03:01,252 --> 00:03:03,012 Speaker 4: get the release of dopamine and a whole lot of 55 00:03:03,093 --> 00:03:07,213 Speaker 4: other positive neurotransmitters which causes the addictive. Now, the problem 56 00:03:07,213 --> 00:03:09,693 Speaker 4: with dopamine is it actually wires our brain and so 57 00:03:09,813 --> 00:03:14,093 Speaker 4: we become dependent on getting our hit every day by 58 00:03:14,133 --> 00:03:17,373 Speaker 4: having gaming, and so it is like any other addiction 59 00:03:17,413 --> 00:03:19,173 Speaker 4: where you do have to try and reduce that. And 60 00:03:19,252 --> 00:03:23,093 Speaker 4: so we can replace the games with things like a 61 00:03:23,133 --> 00:03:25,732 Speaker 4: bit slower, but they're still the same sort of thing. Tetris, 62 00:03:25,733 --> 00:03:29,213 Speaker 4: Candy Crush, Super Mario Rah, and Paper Toss bubble Wrap. 63 00:03:29,252 --> 00:03:32,572 Speaker 4: There's quite a few games like that that, believe it 64 00:03:32,653 --> 00:03:36,893 Speaker 4: or not, actually reduced anxiety as you play them. There 65 00:03:36,973 --> 00:03:41,493 Speaker 4: was a study done on PDSD if you are involved 66 00:03:41,533 --> 00:03:44,293 Speaker 4: in a significant stressful event, if you've played the game 67 00:03:44,373 --> 00:03:48,253 Speaker 4: Tetris within six hours, it significantly reduces the chances of 68 00:03:48,293 --> 00:03:51,293 Speaker 4: getting PTSD. So it depends on the part of the 69 00:03:51,333 --> 00:03:54,413 Speaker 4: brain that's being used during the gaming. Is the best 70 00:03:54,453 --> 00:03:55,653 Speaker 4: I can give you as an answer. 71 00:03:56,013 --> 00:03:59,293 Speaker 3: Interesting, you're talking to me when I interviewed that you 72 00:03:59,333 --> 00:04:03,053 Speaker 3: on another radio station about techniques to get kids off 73 00:04:03,173 --> 00:04:06,333 Speaker 3: You were talking about phones and you said that you 74 00:04:06,453 --> 00:04:09,613 Speaker 3: have to offer create an opportunity for the kid to 75 00:04:09,653 --> 00:04:12,893 Speaker 3: get off the phone themselves, so then they can have 76 00:04:13,893 --> 00:04:15,413 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, but the 77 00:04:15,613 --> 00:04:18,253 Speaker 3: dopamine hit by putting it down and coming to join 78 00:04:18,333 --> 00:04:20,893 Speaker 3: you in a positive activity. Would that work as well 79 00:04:20,893 --> 00:04:21,653 Speaker 3: with video games? 80 00:04:22,413 --> 00:04:25,653 Speaker 4: Absolutely would. Yeah, So that's the interim. It's we have 81 00:04:25,733 --> 00:04:27,773 Speaker 4: to we have to have a break. You can't just 82 00:04:27,813 --> 00:04:30,533 Speaker 4: suddenly say we'll go cold turkey. Not with young people 83 00:04:30,533 --> 00:04:34,933 Speaker 4: their brains and neuroplastic anyway, And it will. Actually I 84 00:04:34,973 --> 00:04:37,493 Speaker 4: forget the terminology for it, but when you say to 85 00:04:37,533 --> 00:04:41,613 Speaker 4: somebody you can't, that's a magnet from to do it, right. 86 00:04:41,693 --> 00:04:45,293 Speaker 4: So that's just kids' brains anyway, and so it's having 87 00:04:45,333 --> 00:04:47,413 Speaker 4: an interrom but it's given them that sense of control. 88 00:04:47,733 --> 00:04:52,013 Speaker 4: You know, we talk about willpower and determination, etc. Taking 89 00:04:52,053 --> 00:04:56,453 Speaker 4: devices and removing them away from children. Whilst that might 90 00:04:56,773 --> 00:05:00,773 Speaker 4: be helpful in the long term, but isn't willpower And 91 00:05:00,893 --> 00:05:02,893 Speaker 4: isn't that isn't having a sense of control being able 92 00:05:02,933 --> 00:05:05,533 Speaker 4: to say when you can use it? You know, having 93 00:05:05,653 --> 00:05:07,373 Speaker 4: a phone sitting in front of you and just staying 94 00:05:07,413 --> 00:05:10,133 Speaker 4: to people you will not use that until a certain 95 00:05:10,133 --> 00:05:13,293 Speaker 4: period of time. That's more beneficial than actually removing it 96 00:05:13,293 --> 00:05:15,813 Speaker 4: from them. So if we can put it in their 97 00:05:15,853 --> 00:05:18,773 Speaker 4: own hands, give them that sense of control. You're allowed 98 00:05:18,813 --> 00:05:20,813 Speaker 4: on the phone, you're allowed, you're allowed to game for 99 00:05:20,933 --> 00:05:24,453 Speaker 4: one hour a day, and in between other times, you 100 00:05:24,533 --> 00:05:27,413 Speaker 4: choose what you're going to do. And what that does 101 00:05:27,533 --> 00:05:30,173 Speaker 4: is give them that whole sense of control. And when 102 00:05:30,213 --> 00:05:33,293 Speaker 4: you say them, do you look, But you must let 103 00:05:33,333 --> 00:05:36,253 Speaker 4: them know that they've stopped gaming and they've done something 104 00:05:36,293 --> 00:05:39,733 Speaker 4: else so that they get the recognition of that. So 105 00:05:39,853 --> 00:05:41,413 Speaker 4: you know, thanks so much of it. You've been off 106 00:05:41,453 --> 00:05:44,293 Speaker 4: your device. How does that make it feel? Habit? Little 107 00:05:44,293 --> 00:05:46,133 Speaker 4: bit of chat about it. What happens is they start 108 00:05:46,213 --> 00:05:49,173 Speaker 4: to realize that they're replacing the dopamine with playing the 109 00:05:49,253 --> 00:05:52,493 Speaker 4: game with not playing the game, if that makes sense. 110 00:05:52,653 --> 00:05:55,413 Speaker 3: Yes, so you might say, I remember you put it 111 00:05:55,453 --> 00:05:59,493 Speaker 3: this way, and I really enjoyed your book, your latest book, 112 00:05:59,493 --> 00:06:00,933 Speaker 3: but I haven't got it work me. But I think 113 00:06:00,933 --> 00:06:03,373 Speaker 3: you put it this way that you might say, when 114 00:06:03,413 --> 00:06:05,813 Speaker 3: do you think you might have an opportunity to join 115 00:06:05,933 --> 00:06:07,813 Speaker 3: us to do this activity? 116 00:06:08,453 --> 00:06:10,293 Speaker 4: Well, how you put it, and then I might have 117 00:06:10,333 --> 00:06:11,693 Speaker 4: been a good I might have been in a good 118 00:06:11,693 --> 00:06:12,213 Speaker 4: place when. 119 00:06:14,573 --> 00:06:15,413 Speaker 1: Essentially it's. 120 00:06:17,373 --> 00:06:18,853 Speaker 4: Doesn't sound like the adult in me. 121 00:06:20,733 --> 00:06:23,173 Speaker 3: They've made that choice to join you. 122 00:06:23,493 --> 00:06:26,133 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's exactly right. I think I've been a 123 00:06:26,173 --> 00:06:29,613 Speaker 4: little bit generous, generously because when some kids you're just 124 00:06:29,613 --> 00:06:34,733 Speaker 4: going to say, listen, get off. Yeah, but you must exactly. Yeah, 125 00:06:34,813 --> 00:06:37,093 Speaker 4: this is the thing. And now every every one of 126 00:06:37,173 --> 00:06:41,133 Speaker 4: us is different, but it's finding that that medium between. 127 00:06:41,333 --> 00:06:44,173 Speaker 4: If they go cold turkey, it's going to cause more 128 00:06:44,253 --> 00:06:48,053 Speaker 4: stress than good, right, and it'll actually disenfranchise you and 129 00:06:48,213 --> 00:06:51,413 Speaker 4: you know, cause us more discontent anything. So it's about 130 00:06:51,453 --> 00:06:54,413 Speaker 4: giving them that sense of control. Look, we want you 131 00:06:54,453 --> 00:06:57,453 Speaker 4: to come and do some activities across during the day. Again, 132 00:06:57,573 --> 00:07:00,013 Speaker 4: again it depends on the age of the child, but 133 00:07:00,173 --> 00:07:04,173 Speaker 4: certainly we want you involved in this wind would suit you. 134 00:07:04,533 --> 00:07:06,413 Speaker 4: And what that does is give them the ability to 135 00:07:06,413 --> 00:07:08,093 Speaker 4: make the control. Now I know that it depends on 136 00:07:08,133 --> 00:07:09,813 Speaker 4: the age because some kids are going to say, well, 137 00:07:09,813 --> 00:07:12,293 Speaker 4: I don't want to at all. I don't want to 138 00:07:12,293 --> 00:07:14,533 Speaker 4: be a part of us families. So it's finding what 139 00:07:14,773 --> 00:07:17,733 Speaker 4: works for you and the child and really having the 140 00:07:17,853 --> 00:07:21,253 Speaker 4: but giving the child the empowerment of having some sense 141 00:07:21,293 --> 00:07:24,013 Speaker 4: of control. Yes, you are going to We are all 142 00:07:24,093 --> 00:07:26,213 Speaker 4: when we're very young. We have to be told what 143 00:07:26,253 --> 00:07:28,773 Speaker 4: to do. But the other thing around this is also 144 00:07:29,253 --> 00:07:34,293 Speaker 4: as parents, we our children mimic us. And so if 145 00:07:34,293 --> 00:07:38,253 Speaker 4: we are sitting watching TV, that's an addiction from a 146 00:07:38,333 --> 00:07:41,933 Speaker 4: child's point of view. Yeah, you I game, you watch TV, 147 00:07:42,013 --> 00:07:44,893 Speaker 4: that's your addiction, and so we have to be mindful 148 00:07:44,893 --> 00:07:46,893 Speaker 4: also that they are watching us. 149 00:07:47,893 --> 00:07:49,773 Speaker 2: Is there something in at lance that if a parent 150 00:07:49,853 --> 00:07:52,333 Speaker 2: understands the game that the child's playing, And a lot 151 00:07:52,373 --> 00:07:54,453 Speaker 2: of these games are played online with their friends, so 152 00:07:54,453 --> 00:07:56,653 Speaker 2: there's no pausing or stopping. They might be in the 153 00:07:56,693 --> 00:07:59,173 Speaker 2: middle of a mission or doing something with their friends, 154 00:07:59,213 --> 00:08:00,933 Speaker 2: and at that point in time, that is the most 155 00:08:00,973 --> 00:08:03,733 Speaker 2: important thing to them. And if as a parent you 156 00:08:04,133 --> 00:08:06,253 Speaker 2: say no, you've got to come off it right now, 157 00:08:06,293 --> 00:08:08,693 Speaker 2: I don't care what mission you're in, then that sets 158 00:08:08,693 --> 00:08:09,893 Speaker 2: off something in the child's brain. 159 00:08:11,093 --> 00:08:15,613 Speaker 4: Yeah, it does well. Apart from all, yeah, it certainly does. Cortisol, 160 00:08:15,613 --> 00:08:20,133 Speaker 4: et cetera. It's around saying, well, there has to be boundaries. 161 00:08:20,413 --> 00:08:22,853 Speaker 4: This is the thing around children particularly, They have to 162 00:08:22,893 --> 00:08:25,453 Speaker 4: have boundaries. We can't just allow them to do whatever 163 00:08:25,453 --> 00:08:28,733 Speaker 4: they want to because bad things will happen. So if 164 00:08:28,733 --> 00:08:31,133 Speaker 4: we can set some boundaries for them and say no, 165 00:08:31,493 --> 00:08:35,293 Speaker 4: you promised that you were off at this time, but 166 00:08:35,453 --> 00:08:38,413 Speaker 4: then allowing them to play for a certain number of 167 00:08:38,453 --> 00:08:40,533 Speaker 4: you know, an hour or two hours or three hours, 168 00:08:40,813 --> 00:08:42,573 Speaker 4: so that they can set up the time that they're 169 00:08:42,612 --> 00:08:45,533 Speaker 4: going to be involved in that special operation. And you know, 170 00:08:46,012 --> 00:08:48,412 Speaker 4: you're talking my kind of language, because this has actually 171 00:08:48,453 --> 00:08:51,492 Speaker 4: happened in real life with our family, right So it's 172 00:08:51,492 --> 00:08:55,413 Speaker 4: about having this that these rules at certain times and 173 00:08:55,492 --> 00:08:59,253 Speaker 4: allowing that child then to play that game because you 174 00:08:59,333 --> 00:09:01,573 Speaker 4: said they could. If we just suddenly walk in there 175 00:09:01,612 --> 00:09:04,253 Speaker 4: and change our mind and say no, that's it, you're off. 176 00:09:04,813 --> 00:09:07,412 Speaker 4: I'm sick of this stuff. Then that's going to cause 177 00:09:07,612 --> 00:09:11,732 Speaker 4: backlash of some sort. But again we must always set 178 00:09:11,773 --> 00:09:15,453 Speaker 4: the boundaries for our children, because children don't know boundaries. 179 00:09:15,533 --> 00:09:18,493 Speaker 4: That's what they're looking for, particularly as teenagers. Teenagers want 180 00:09:18,533 --> 00:09:20,413 Speaker 4: to know where the boundary is and I'll take one 181 00:09:20,413 --> 00:09:22,773 Speaker 4: step over it to see what happens. They want to 182 00:09:22,813 --> 00:09:24,933 Speaker 4: know consequences as well, so we've got to remind them 183 00:09:24,973 --> 00:09:25,333 Speaker 4: of those. 184 00:09:25,973 --> 00:09:29,133 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Laannce Bunnett was the National Advisor 185 00:09:29,173 --> 00:09:33,132 Speaker 3: for New Zealand Police Crisis Negotiation Teams and his book 186 00:09:33,213 --> 00:09:36,492 Speaker 3: Anxiety as a Worry is out now if you want 187 00:09:36,492 --> 00:09:37,652 Speaker 3: to check it out, it's a very good read. 188 00:09:38,252 --> 00:09:41,173 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks B listen live on air 189 00:09:41,372 --> 00:09:44,053 Speaker 1: or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you 190 00:09:44,132 --> 00:09:46,573 Speaker 1: go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.