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Speaker 1: The ghost of labor past is back to haunt us

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Speaker 1: with more spending ways. Almost thirty eight million bucks was

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Speaker 1: handed out on a flexy wage program for the self employed.

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Speaker 1: So this was a COVID idea trouble as large numbers

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Speaker 1: of the businesses have failed and the recipients are back

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Speaker 1: on the doll Anyway, phill O'Reilly's former Welfare Expert Advisory

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Speaker 1: Group member and is back. Well this film morning to you, morning,

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Speaker 1: mikel although it does include the national government. I'll come

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Speaker 1: to that in just a couple of moments. So the

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Speaker 1: whole thing was boosted in twenty twenty one. Was this

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Speaker 1: a waste of money? Why if you want to set

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Speaker 1: up a business, are we handing out taxpayers money?

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Speaker 2: The idea of people being supported to set up a

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Speaker 2: business is actually a good idea in principle, Mike. You

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Speaker 2: look at the problem is that the money wasn't monitored

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Speaker 2: properly and far too much of it was spent. That's

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Speaker 2: the problem, not the idea that the idea is this.

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Speaker 2: If you're say a middle aged man or a young

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Speaker 2: woman living in rural New Zealand, what's your chances of

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Speaker 2: actually getting a job? You know, and I've always argued, look,

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Speaker 2: if you can make your own labor market by starting

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Speaker 2: a business, that's a great idea. And of course Madiven

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Speaker 2: can start these days, was the interneired and so on.

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Speaker 2: The successful business is going to be SARTs anywhay. So

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Speaker 2: I've always argued that there is a role for mist

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Speaker 2: to think about that, because otherwise we'll just pay money

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Speaker 2: for people on the doll for years and years and

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Speaker 2: years maybe forever, and get nowhere. So the idea is

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Speaker 2: the right idea. The problem is that they spent far

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Speaker 2: too much and it was far too lax, and there

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Speaker 2: wasn't enough monitoring and measurement of outcomes. Bear in mind

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Speaker 2: also that look, when you start a business that often fails.

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Speaker 2: That's the nature of these things, so you are going

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Speaker 2: to get high failure rates. But I think the idea

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Speaker 2: is right. The execution obviously wocully bad.

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Speaker 1: So where are we at now? Because this was in

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Speaker 1: twenty one. By the time we get to twenty four

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Speaker 1: to twenty five, they've curtailed it to a degree. But

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, are still going, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there will be some of these projects going. But

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Speaker 2: as I say that, the challenge will be to get

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Speaker 2: government bureaucrats to actually measure and monitor outcomes that lead

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Speaker 2: to good places. Bear in mind, they don't give this

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Speaker 2: very well for people getting jobs. Either might be exactly

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Speaker 2: what they measure is people moving off the dogle getting

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Speaker 2: a job. They don't measure, for example, how long they

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Speaker 2: stay on the job. They don't measure whether it's not

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Speaker 2: the best monology. They don't measure whether or not the

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Speaker 2: job actually led to better prospects for this person. So

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Speaker 2: they don't measure quality outcomes. They measure an outcome which

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Speaker 2: says I move off the doll into work. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot that's wrong with the way and which work

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Speaker 2: and Income in the Ministry of Social Development do these things.

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Speaker 2: But I think that the idea of these programs is

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Speaker 2: the right idea. But we just need to get much

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Speaker 2: much better and much tighter about the way we spend

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Speaker 2: the money in the way we want.

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Speaker 1: They capable of doing it, even if you got to know,

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Speaker 1: kick them up the bomb or whip them into shape.

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Speaker 1: Are they capable of monitoring in a way that would make.

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Speaker 2: This work kind of? I think there's never going to

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Speaker 2: be perfect these things. Of course, there's always going to

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Speaker 2: be because what's the successful business? You know, how do

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Speaker 2: you measure and monitor that? And how do you define it?

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Speaker 2: But you know it's not impossible. Bear in mind all

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Speaker 2: big bureaucracies, including private sector bureaucracies, struggle to monitor and

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Speaker 2: measure things properly because it's a big industrial machine. They've

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Speaker 2: got to measure thousands of these things and monitor thousands

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Speaker 2: of these things all at once, so it's never going

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Speaker 2: to be perfect. But over bet to face in the

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Speaker 2: public service, I think they can so honestly, as long

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Speaker 2: as they get the program right from the get go.

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Speaker 2: What's the program, trying to target, what's to trying to do,

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Speaker 2: do some pilots and then find out what works and

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Speaker 2: then expand it's will that probably hasn't happened he yet.

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Speaker 1: What is the criteria, because is it just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: look I want to sell sausage rolls and a cappuccino

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Speaker 1: and they go, that's hospo and there's too much hospo

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Speaker 1: or they don't care. As long as they think you

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Speaker 1: can sell scis rolls and cappuccino, they'll back you.

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Speaker 2: I suspect it's still I'm not exactly sure of the

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Speaker 2: detail that might but I'm pretty sure it'll be the latter,

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Speaker 2: which is to say, if you can come up with

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Speaker 2: a sensible sort of business plan, you get some mentoring

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Speaker 2: maybe around that, then a where you go better. In mind,

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Speaker 2: of course, in the private sector you're allowed to start

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Speaker 2: a business sits in a crowded marketplace too, of course,

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Speaker 2: so nothing wrong with that particularly. The challenge is more, that,

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Speaker 2: you know, is the misty putting in place the training

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Speaker 2: mechanisms to these people. Are they putting in place any

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Speaker 2: sort of mentorship or guidance for them or are they

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Speaker 2: just sort of giving them a bit of money and

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Speaker 2: hoping it succeeds. Because as you know, you know, if

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Speaker 2: you want to start a small business then you don't

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Speaker 2: have a bit of guidance and you don't have a

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Speaker 2: bit of support, then you're going to fail. So the

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Speaker 2: question I'd be asking you, misd is not whether these

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Speaker 2: programs are a good idea. They are, they probably need

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Speaker 2: to be more limited, But what are you doing about

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Speaker 2: making sure you learn from them so that more people

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Speaker 2: can succeed? What the textpos Union has clearly pointed out

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Speaker 2: that that's not happening, and that's the bad thing.

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Speaker 1: Nice stuff film appreciated as always fellow Riley, a former

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Speaker 1: Welfare Expert Advisory Group member. The reason I ask about

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Speaker 1: hospital is we get in the area we live. You

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Speaker 1: get a sort of a local community update and a

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Speaker 1: big list of the stuff that's happening in the area

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Speaker 1: in terms of businesses that are on the verge of

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Speaker 1: opening any day now. And I got the list the

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Speaker 1: other day, and what was bullish about it or what

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Speaker 1: was good about it is there's a lot of businesses

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Speaker 1: that are opening. I'm thinking, right, things are turning, things

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Speaker 1: are right. People are wanting to take a risk. This

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Speaker 1: is fantastic. But then I go through the risk at

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Speaker 1: a list and I can't remember how many people there were.

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Speaker 1: There's maybe twenty new businesses that were going to open

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Speaker 1: up over the next six months, about eighteen of them

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Speaker 1: are hospital. Now I'm so I'm tarn So on one hand,

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Speaker 1: if you want to open something that's hoss bo, good on,

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Speaker 1: you go for gold. Couldn't care less. But then I'm thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: if there's eighteen of twenty businesses that are opening that

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Speaker 1: a hospital, how many of those are going to last?

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Speaker 1: And the answer is not many. And then your next thing,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do is be interviewing old miss Bidoir

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Speaker 1: from the restaurant Association, who's telling me how to hospow

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Speaker 1: is and how difficult is I'm not surprised because every

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Speaker 1: man and his dog's opening up a cafe and then

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Speaker 1: they don't last because we're over cafed in this country,

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Speaker 1: we're over hospoed in this country, and there's not a

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Speaker 1: mechanism in place whereby they go. Look, have you thought

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Speaker 1: about the possibility that if you're opening up yet another

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Speaker 1: bubble tea operation, it isn't going to last very long?

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Speaker 1: Maybe you want to look at something else. Or are

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Speaker 1: we a country that says if you want to give

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Speaker 1: it a go, give it a go.

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