1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: The Treaty Principles Bill arrived at Parliament yesterday, debated next week, 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: then sent off to select committee. Nothing the government has 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: done has created more ranks than this. Of course, the 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Act Party leaders behind it, David Seymore's with us good. 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 2: Morning, good morning mate. 6 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Is what we've seen so far, your inability to explain 7 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: it clearly, or they just don't like it, and that's that. 8 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's very clear that more and more 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: people see this is an initiative that promotes equal rights. 10 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 2: In fact, if this country is about anything, it is 11 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: about the idea that no matter who you are or 12 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: where you're from, you get a fair go at life. 13 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 2: And the people that don't like it are simultaneously saying 14 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: that the debate is going nowhere, but also that it 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 2: must be stopped before it goes anywhere. And that's because 16 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 2: ultimately we are democratizing the treaty. We're saying anyone can 17 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: have a say on our constitutional future. You won't be 18 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: shouted down because you're not an expert or the you're 19 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: wrong kind of person, or you're racist or anything like that. 20 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: What we're seeing as people don't really know how to 21 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: respond to the treaty being democratized. 22 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: What I don't understand, and I think most people listening 23 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: to this would be on your side broadly speaking, having 24 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: read what you put forward yesterday wasn't dramatically different from 25 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: what you put forward in the first place. And I 26 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: think most of us understand that. You know, if we 27 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: can all be equal, that would be fantastic. And the 28 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: courts are interventionist and that's a problem. Here's the difficulty 29 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: you face. How is it you couldn't get National across 30 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: the line on this? Why is it dead? Essentially? 31 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: I think the National Party are afraid of taking on 32 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: hard issues. That's why I never joined the National Party. 33 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: That's why I believe we need act. It is difficult 34 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: because over the last forty eight years since the Treaty 35 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: of White Angy Acts was passed, the courts of the 36 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: White Angi Tribunal and so on have built up this 37 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: idea that the Treaty is a partnership and therefore everything 38 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: in New Zealand becomes about your identity in which side 39 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: of the partnership you're on. How do you govern three warders? 40 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: As there are separate Maori health author is there going 41 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: to be different consultation rights under the Resource Management Act. 42 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: Now I think the National Party would say, oh, that 43 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: we got rid of all those things. My point is 44 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: that until we remove the underlying idea that our treaty 45 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: is a partnership between races and we each have a 46 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: different role in our society based on our background, those 47 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: policies will all be back in the stroke of a pen. 48 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: This is about a big, and I admit difficult debate 49 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: whether our treaty gives us equal rights or a role 50 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: in a partnership where we're defined by identity. That's the 51 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 2: kind of thing that actors Herefore other parties often aren't. 52 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: Would you accept that as it stands right now here 53 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: this morning, it's dead post the first reading. 54 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: No, because the other thing I know about other parties 55 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: is that are very responsive to public opinion, and they 56 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: may see that this debate is far more worthwhile and 57 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: far more constructive than anything that they've seen before. And 58 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: I say to Chris lux And every now and then, look, 59 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: you're always welcome to get back aboard the wagon if 60 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: you'd like to, so that may happen. I also just 61 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: make the point. But if I'm completely wrong and it 62 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: never gets past the first reading, all that happens is 63 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 2: that we produce the idea that each New Zealander has 64 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: the right to have a say about their constitutional future, 65 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: and it's an equal right. It's not something that is 66 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: the preserve of the courts, the White angu Tribune, all 67 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: the academics, the media, of the bureaucracy. Then we've actually 68 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: achieved something. And in the past you look at euthanasia 69 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: for example, the first bill was put up in nineteen 70 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: ninety five, got shot down in flames. No one thought 71 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: it would ever go anywhere. Twenty five, twenty four years later, 72 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: it became a loss. So you know, even if this 73 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: bill doesn't go all the way, the fact that people 74 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: are so opposed to it even just having the discussion 75 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: tells you we need. 76 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: To have that to suc That's the thing that worries 77 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: me most the people that they won't even talk about 78 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: having said that. When you say what you just said, 79 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: is it dead in the sense that I see you 80 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: running this in twenty six surely this is what this 81 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: is about. 82 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: Ultimately, well, we'll see where this debate gets to. But 83 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: one thing that we certainly won't be giving up on 84 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: is the idea that each New Zealander is born free 85 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: and equal with the same basic respect and dignity due 86 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: to them. The idea that some people get to say 87 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: we're in partnership with the crown, or where tongue to 88 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: Fenla and your tongue or to tavs. You know. My 89 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: ultimate challenge to people who oppose this bill is, how 90 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: is this world that you want supposed to work? And 91 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: where in the world has dividing people up by their 92 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: background being a success for any society anywhere. You know, 93 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: in many ways, I'd much rather not be having this 94 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: debate and talk about regulation and education and balancing the 95 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: budget and how to back healthcare work with an aging population. 96 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: Love to talk about all that, but I put it 97 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: to people that it's going to be all the harder 98 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: to overcome those lengers when our underlying constitutional setting is 99 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: that we have a different role in society based on 100 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: things that happen two hundred years before the even born. 101 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: And I appreciate your time, David see Moore, the act Party leader. 102 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 103 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 104 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.