1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,853 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from newstalk ZEDB. Follow this 2 00:00:13,053 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,733 --> 00:00:19,253 Speaker 2: So big changes have been proposed to replace the current 4 00:00:19,413 --> 00:00:22,933 Speaker 2: NCEA system with a new national qualifications. To chat more 5 00:00:22,933 --> 00:00:25,852 Speaker 2: about this, we are joined by Patrick drum Here's the 6 00:00:25,893 --> 00:00:30,373 Speaker 2: headmaster of Mount Albert Grammar and joins us on the line. Now, Patrick, 7 00:00:30,453 --> 00:00:31,653 Speaker 2: very good afternoon. 8 00:00:31,732 --> 00:00:33,053 Speaker 3: Good afternoon. How are you. 9 00:00:33,133 --> 00:00:35,493 Speaker 4: What are your basic thoughts on these proposed changes. I 10 00:00:35,613 --> 00:00:37,133 Speaker 4: assume you've had a chance to look at them. 11 00:00:37,893 --> 00:00:40,693 Speaker 3: We had a brief chance to scan through them all. 12 00:00:40,812 --> 00:00:42,573 Speaker 3: I was fortunate enough to be present at the actual 13 00:00:42,613 --> 00:00:45,373 Speaker 3: announcement this morning, but quite a bit of information. But look, 14 00:00:45,412 --> 00:00:48,533 Speaker 3: I think overall is a sense of excitement. I suppose 15 00:00:48,573 --> 00:00:53,133 Speaker 3: really that we've had a pretty bold decision made or announced, 16 00:00:53,813 --> 00:00:55,333 Speaker 3: let's put it that way. It's been announced in this 17 00:00:55,453 --> 00:00:58,693 Speaker 3: consultation to follow, but certainly a feeling that this is 18 00:00:58,733 --> 00:01:02,453 Speaker 3: a really big step in the right direction to addressing 19 00:01:02,613 --> 00:01:05,453 Speaker 3: those concerns that we've heard enough of over recent times 20 00:01:05,453 --> 00:01:09,253 Speaker 3: about in CAC Yeah, pretty exciting. Amongst myself a number 21 00:01:09,293 --> 00:01:10,413 Speaker 3: of colleagues, what are. 22 00:01:10,373 --> 00:01:15,413 Speaker 4: Your thoughts on the standalone foundational skills award at year eleven. 23 00:01:16,813 --> 00:01:19,333 Speaker 3: Well, well, I think it's got mirrored on a number 24 00:01:19,373 --> 00:01:23,292 Speaker 3: of levels. Certainly a workload thing for teachers. Just we 25 00:01:23,813 --> 00:01:26,213 Speaker 3: many schools like Mana, a grammar school, had actually done 26 00:01:26,253 --> 00:01:29,612 Speaker 3: away with Level one anyway already and instigated our own, 27 00:01:30,773 --> 00:01:34,572 Speaker 3: our own basically criculam an assessment at that level to 28 00:01:34,652 --> 00:01:36,973 Speaker 3: mitigate some of the challenges that that staff have been 29 00:01:37,013 --> 00:01:39,572 Speaker 3: facing for a long time. But I think we're wanting 30 00:01:39,613 --> 00:01:42,253 Speaker 3: students to stay right through ideally to the end of 31 00:01:42,292 --> 00:01:44,533 Speaker 3: year thirteen, but certainly to the end of year twelve 32 00:01:45,133 --> 00:01:49,053 Speaker 3: and to hit your first formal qualification there. I think 33 00:01:49,133 --> 00:01:51,853 Speaker 3: it's called the New Zealand Certificate of Education is the 34 00:01:52,013 --> 00:01:55,653 Speaker 3: proposal there bit of a rejig of names. But to 35 00:01:55,733 --> 00:01:57,653 Speaker 3: hit that at year twelve is an incentive to keep 36 00:01:57,693 --> 00:01:59,813 Speaker 3: students right through to the end of year twelve. I mean, 37 00:01:59,853 --> 00:02:03,013 Speaker 3: it's that makes a lot of sense. Were certainly not 38 00:02:03,333 --> 00:02:07,613 Speaker 3: wanting to see students leaving the compulsory education sector too early. 39 00:02:08,853 --> 00:02:10,853 Speaker 3: I think the Foundational Award gives you a good solid 40 00:02:10,893 --> 00:02:13,693 Speaker 3: grounding in literacy and numeracy, so again it's it's a 41 00:02:13,693 --> 00:02:17,853 Speaker 3: precursor in many ways to that senior high higher stakes 42 00:02:17,972 --> 00:02:20,813 Speaker 3: qualification following in the years that follow So. 43 00:02:20,773 --> 00:02:24,213 Speaker 4: If you fail the Foundation Skills at year eleven, do 44 00:02:24,252 --> 00:02:27,293 Speaker 4: you have to repeat or is there a pathway through? 45 00:02:28,133 --> 00:02:29,693 Speaker 3: I think that's all going to have to be you know, 46 00:02:30,573 --> 00:02:34,493 Speaker 3: sort of out in the consultation process. But the Foundation Award, 47 00:02:34,773 --> 00:02:38,572 Speaker 3: I my understanding, is a big focus on literacy and numeracy. 48 00:02:38,933 --> 00:02:41,573 Speaker 3: We've actually bought that in the last last year with 49 00:02:41,653 --> 00:02:46,053 Speaker 3: these corequisite standards that students need to reach. Now it's 50 00:02:46,053 --> 00:02:48,853 Speaker 3: a separate exam they've been sitting this year to get 51 00:02:49,013 --> 00:02:51,692 Speaker 3: n CEA. At the moment now you need to have 52 00:02:51,813 --> 00:02:56,293 Speaker 3: passed those literacy and numeracy standards. Since it's it's created 53 00:02:56,333 --> 00:02:58,413 Speaker 3: a bit of a bit of a bit of interest 54 00:02:58,813 --> 00:03:01,893 Speaker 3: in terms of raising the bar there. So this is 55 00:03:01,972 --> 00:03:05,053 Speaker 3: nothing really radical compared to what we've just We've already 56 00:03:05,053 --> 00:03:08,572 Speaker 3: got operating now in the skills and certainly you know 57 00:03:08,573 --> 00:03:10,292 Speaker 3: if you're going to get NCAA Level three or or 58 00:03:10,333 --> 00:03:13,093 Speaker 3: I think it's the New Zealand Advanced Certypicate of education 59 00:03:13,213 --> 00:03:15,853 Speaker 3: is a new name. You'd hope that you'd had you 60 00:03:15,933 --> 00:03:18,773 Speaker 3: had graduates at were literate and numerate. So there's no 61 00:03:18,853 --> 00:03:22,973 Speaker 3: sort of I don't think threat to the progress progression 62 00:03:23,013 --> 00:03:25,252 Speaker 3: through the senior school with that Foundation award. 63 00:03:26,373 --> 00:03:29,053 Speaker 4: What do you think about, you know, the introducing the 64 00:03:29,093 --> 00:03:32,773 Speaker 4: percentage marks out of one hundred alongside letter grades. Personally, 65 00:03:32,813 --> 00:03:36,493 Speaker 4: as a as a parent, I prefer that. Do you 66 00:03:36,493 --> 00:03:40,133 Speaker 4: think that's motivational for students to know exactly where they sit? 67 00:03:40,373 --> 00:03:43,893 Speaker 4: Or do you think at can just make kids give 68 00:03:43,973 --> 00:03:46,733 Speaker 4: up if they're not if they're not getting it nuanced 69 00:03:47,293 --> 00:03:48,493 Speaker 4: information if you know what I. 70 00:03:48,453 --> 00:03:51,773 Speaker 3: Mean, Well, it's a bit of a no brainer. Really. 71 00:03:51,853 --> 00:03:54,733 Speaker 3: The the rejig back in the early two thousands of 72 00:03:55,413 --> 00:03:59,253 Speaker 3: trying to repackage the way we reported achievement just has 73 00:03:59,333 --> 00:04:04,053 Speaker 3: created huge confusion. Certainly internationally. We would get students wanting 74 00:04:04,053 --> 00:04:08,053 Speaker 3: to progress, the universities overseas they file their report card 75 00:04:08,053 --> 00:04:10,493 Speaker 3: with the When we get universities contacting us trying to 76 00:04:10,533 --> 00:04:13,733 Speaker 3: understand why students have get all the ease for excellence 77 00:04:13,933 --> 00:04:18,733 Speaker 3: because and other jurisdiction, he's not excuse. So you know 78 00:04:18,933 --> 00:04:22,653 Speaker 3: this common sense needed here. Yes, you know, I suppose 79 00:04:22,693 --> 00:04:24,173 Speaker 3: there is a concern that we're going back to that 80 00:04:24,213 --> 00:04:27,853 Speaker 3: sort of pass fail fifty percent mark, but I think 81 00:04:27,853 --> 00:04:30,733 Speaker 3: that is extremely motivating for students and it just the 82 00:04:30,813 --> 00:04:35,293 Speaker 3: simplicity for parents and other stakeholders. We just had to 83 00:04:36,213 --> 00:04:38,813 Speaker 3: go back to a language which is universally understood and 84 00:04:38,853 --> 00:04:39,933 Speaker 3: internationally understood. 85 00:04:40,013 --> 00:04:41,333 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you just want to know the truth 86 00:04:41,333 --> 00:04:44,213 Speaker 4: as a parent and arguably as a child, you just 87 00:04:44,253 --> 00:04:46,333 Speaker 4: want to know where you sit, where you need to 88 00:04:46,533 --> 00:04:48,893 Speaker 4: do better. I mean, it's not the truth. The truth 89 00:04:48,893 --> 00:04:49,613 Speaker 4: can't be offensive. 90 00:04:49,613 --> 00:04:51,933 Speaker 3: I would say, well, it's not, and I think that's 91 00:04:51,933 --> 00:04:54,613 Speaker 3: one of the problems. The best intentions of NCAA was 92 00:04:54,653 --> 00:04:58,333 Speaker 3: tried trying to recognize achievement and being very flexible about 93 00:04:58,333 --> 00:05:01,693 Speaker 3: doing that. But we all know now, and we've known 94 00:05:01,733 --> 00:05:04,493 Speaker 3: for quite a while that that the actual information we're 95 00:05:04,493 --> 00:05:08,453 Speaker 3: getting is not necessary the reality. And because it it 96 00:05:08,493 --> 00:05:12,533 Speaker 3: couldn't be compared between schools, even in the same city, 97 00:05:12,693 --> 00:05:15,733 Speaker 3: because chemistry in one school could be vastly different than 98 00:05:15,773 --> 00:05:18,853 Speaker 3: chemistry and another school. Because of that flexibility, you know 99 00:05:18,893 --> 00:05:22,093 Speaker 3: that that lack of trust was just exacerbated with that. 100 00:05:22,293 --> 00:05:25,373 Speaker 3: So you know, we ended up with with with where 101 00:05:25,413 --> 00:05:27,693 Speaker 3: you got your qualification was was the main incentive, and 102 00:05:27,773 --> 00:05:29,813 Speaker 3: parents have voted with their feet and there's certain schools 103 00:05:29,813 --> 00:05:32,773 Speaker 3: that are bursting at the seams because of of the 104 00:05:33,013 --> 00:05:37,053 Speaker 3: of you know, the the rigor or certainly the perception 105 00:05:37,133 --> 00:05:39,573 Speaker 3: of rigor in their in their curriculums. 106 00:05:39,533 --> 00:05:41,813 Speaker 2: Like your own school. Patrick, Well, what's your take on 107 00:05:41,973 --> 00:05:47,213 Speaker 2: the point about creating new subjects with industry expert opinion 108 00:05:47,253 --> 00:05:50,333 Speaker 2: on what those subjects should be? Is there in your eyes? 109 00:05:50,373 --> 00:05:52,693 Speaker 2: What are the gaps that are needed for those vocational 110 00:05:52,733 --> 00:05:55,333 Speaker 2: pathways and do you have some sort of control as 111 00:05:55,333 --> 00:05:57,653 Speaker 2: a headmaster to design those as a school. 112 00:05:58,253 --> 00:06:00,053 Speaker 3: Well, I think we will, and we've got a lot 113 00:06:00,053 --> 00:06:03,573 Speaker 3: of flexibility already around those vocational subjects, and I think 114 00:06:03,773 --> 00:06:07,053 Speaker 3: absolutely working close with industry, just like we need to 115 00:06:07,093 --> 00:06:10,013 Speaker 3: work close with our tertiaries as well. I'm about getting 116 00:06:10,013 --> 00:06:13,693 Speaker 3: this these these qualifications right. I mean, school is preparation 117 00:06:13,893 --> 00:06:16,853 Speaker 3: for the next step. It's not an end in itself. 118 00:06:16,893 --> 00:06:19,053 Speaker 3: And I think that's the Sometimes we get a bit 119 00:06:19,053 --> 00:06:21,413 Speaker 3: carried away and our schools. Don't we about about talking 120 00:06:21,413 --> 00:06:25,093 Speaker 3: about our exam results, versteteen results, whatever it might be. 121 00:06:25,173 --> 00:06:27,773 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, but we're just really preparing students 122 00:06:27,773 --> 00:06:30,413 Speaker 3: for that next step. We must be working with those partners. 123 00:06:30,933 --> 00:06:33,813 Speaker 3: My only concern is that, you know, one of the 124 00:06:34,773 --> 00:06:38,933 Speaker 3: challenges in the current system is how the vocational standards 125 00:06:39,373 --> 00:06:41,853 Speaker 3: integrated with overall n CEA, and there's a lot of 126 00:06:41,893 --> 00:06:45,693 Speaker 3: confusion there. They are a standard based approach and now 127 00:06:45,773 --> 00:06:49,093 Speaker 3: we're moving back to a to a percentage. So yeah, 128 00:06:49,173 --> 00:06:51,693 Speaker 3: one of the exemplars the Minister hand it out this 129 00:06:51,733 --> 00:06:55,693 Speaker 3: morning was a template which showed automotive an engineering engineering 130 00:06:55,773 --> 00:06:58,453 Speaker 3: seventy four out of one hundred. I suppose if I 131 00:06:58,493 --> 00:07:00,453 Speaker 3: want someone fixing my card, like one hundred out of 132 00:07:00,493 --> 00:07:05,813 Speaker 3: one hundred, and you know, so standards based assessment reaching 133 00:07:05,933 --> 00:07:09,173 Speaker 3: US standard you can repair a car, you can land 134 00:07:09,173 --> 00:07:12,973 Speaker 3: a plane. You know, there is a lot of sense 135 00:07:13,133 --> 00:07:18,053 Speaker 3: and those those skills based vocations having a standard a 136 00:07:18,093 --> 00:07:21,653 Speaker 3: minimum standard, whereas that's not necessarily the case with building 137 00:07:21,693 --> 00:07:25,013 Speaker 3: knowledge over it or those other academic subjects. So how 138 00:07:25,093 --> 00:07:28,133 Speaker 3: those It's going to be a very interesting discussion around 139 00:07:28,133 --> 00:07:33,933 Speaker 3: how these vocational standards integrate within an overall certificate grade 140 00:07:34,013 --> 00:07:37,173 Speaker 3: at the end of your education. And I suppose there 141 00:07:37,173 --> 00:07:39,213 Speaker 3: would have been still an interest in looking at a 142 00:07:39,253 --> 00:07:44,373 Speaker 3: totally separate vocational pathway and supporting that, promoting it for 143 00:07:44,453 --> 00:07:46,493 Speaker 3: students that are very clear that they want to move 144 00:07:46,533 --> 00:07:49,253 Speaker 3: into either a technology, trades or whatever it might be 145 00:07:49,293 --> 00:07:53,213 Speaker 3: based pathway. We're still trying to probably cover the whole 146 00:07:53,333 --> 00:07:57,773 Speaker 3: range with this new qualification, and that's you know, we've 147 00:07:57,813 --> 00:08:00,133 Speaker 3: fallen into into a few problems with that in the past. 148 00:08:00,653 --> 00:08:03,613 Speaker 4: We're talking to Patrick drumheadmaster of Mount Albert Grammer, one 149 00:08:03,613 --> 00:08:06,493 Speaker 4: of the biggest schools in the country. Are you concerned, 150 00:08:06,533 --> 00:08:10,213 Speaker 4: as some people have stated that this is going too 151 00:08:10,253 --> 00:08:13,373 Speaker 4: fast and how prepared are schools to implement such a 152 00:08:13,453 --> 00:08:16,973 Speaker 4: sort of wide scale overhaul because the year twenty twenty 153 00:08:16,973 --> 00:08:19,053 Speaker 4: six is being banded about for some of the changes. 154 00:08:20,253 --> 00:08:23,573 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we've been waiting for this, and to say 155 00:08:23,693 --> 00:08:26,493 Speaker 3: the waiting has led to schools doing their own things anyway, 156 00:08:26,653 --> 00:08:29,653 Speaker 3: and I think we need to put a little bit 157 00:08:29,653 --> 00:08:31,693 Speaker 3: of pressure on ourselves and there certainly will be that. 158 00:08:31,813 --> 00:08:34,893 Speaker 3: I think the consultation period is very brief the turnaround here, 159 00:08:35,053 --> 00:08:37,413 Speaker 3: it's four or five weeks. But you know, there's been 160 00:08:37,453 --> 00:08:41,492 Speaker 3: a lot of groundwork that's gone in here. The professional 161 00:08:41,533 --> 00:08:43,893 Speaker 3: advisory group that's been working with the ministry had a 162 00:08:43,973 --> 00:08:47,933 Speaker 3: range of principles and head masses from a great diverse 163 00:08:47,973 --> 00:08:50,693 Speaker 3: selection of schools, So there's been a lot of work 164 00:08:51,012 --> 00:08:53,293 Speaker 3: and if you could argue sort of consultation obviously in 165 00:08:53,293 --> 00:08:58,052 Speaker 3: a confidential setting, and that advisory group already. You know, 166 00:08:58,293 --> 00:09:01,413 Speaker 3: we just how long can we wait for this? We've 167 00:09:01,453 --> 00:09:05,132 Speaker 3: been reviewing NCA basically for twenty five years and still 168 00:09:05,132 --> 00:09:07,933 Speaker 3: having got it right. So I just think we've just 169 00:09:07,973 --> 00:09:10,413 Speaker 3: got it. You know, We've got a very clear directive 170 00:09:10,413 --> 00:09:12,893 Speaker 3: from a minister who's pretty committed to this, and I 171 00:09:12,892 --> 00:09:14,053 Speaker 3: think we just got to run with it. 172 00:09:14,693 --> 00:09:17,573 Speaker 4: What about kids that are showing excellence because you know, 173 00:09:17,653 --> 00:09:21,213 Speaker 4: we wanted people to get foundational, We want to get standards. 174 00:09:21,252 --> 00:09:23,893 Speaker 4: We want people to be able to achieve. But what 175 00:09:23,892 --> 00:09:25,973 Speaker 4: about the people that are brilliant? And we as a 176 00:09:25,973 --> 00:09:28,373 Speaker 4: country we need people are brilliant. So you know, you 177 00:09:28,453 --> 00:09:31,372 Speaker 4: talk about we talk about the foundational level year eleven. 178 00:09:31,533 --> 00:09:34,372 Speaker 4: What if you are well past that at year eleven? 179 00:09:34,453 --> 00:09:38,093 Speaker 4: Are we set up to help people young young people 180 00:09:38,093 --> 00:09:40,213 Speaker 4: excel if they are brilliant? 181 00:09:41,173 --> 00:09:44,333 Speaker 3: Well, I think this ability to have you know, I 182 00:09:44,372 --> 00:09:46,973 Speaker 3: think the five subjects and you're best out of one 183 00:09:47,012 --> 00:09:49,533 Speaker 3: hundred each of your mark out of five hundred, that's 184 00:09:49,573 --> 00:09:51,372 Speaker 3: going to be very motivating. I mean, I suppose it's 185 00:09:51,413 --> 00:09:54,652 Speaker 3: one of the big motivators for moving to the international qualifications, 186 00:09:54,732 --> 00:09:58,293 Speaker 3: isn't it. People in Cambridge schools doing Cambridge International Exams 187 00:09:58,293 --> 00:10:01,813 Speaker 3: they're all getting percentages. It's been a big driver for 188 00:10:02,413 --> 00:10:05,573 Speaker 3: success there. So I think that that you know, remember 189 00:10:05,612 --> 00:10:08,372 Speaker 3: we also have a very rigorous New Zealand scholarships and 190 00:10:08,573 --> 00:10:12,252 Speaker 3: right at the top level of our qualification system. In fact, 191 00:10:12,252 --> 00:10:15,693 Speaker 3: at the moment, it's the only common assessment in the 192 00:10:15,732 --> 00:10:18,612 Speaker 3: whole system where students turn up on the same dance 193 00:10:18,653 --> 00:10:21,413 Speaker 3: at the same exam, So you know, that's been a 194 00:10:21,453 --> 00:10:25,093 Speaker 3: big measure, a big motivator for many many students at 195 00:10:25,093 --> 00:10:29,012 Speaker 3: that upper end. I just think this is a fantastic 196 00:10:29,012 --> 00:10:31,573 Speaker 3: way of recognizing that, you know, maybe ninety percent in 197 00:10:31,612 --> 00:10:34,053 Speaker 3: the subject is different than eighty percent, or is different 198 00:10:34,093 --> 00:10:37,373 Speaker 3: than seventy five, and that again in itself is a 199 00:10:37,413 --> 00:10:40,013 Speaker 3: real motivator how we get there and how those marks 200 00:10:40,053 --> 00:10:43,133 Speaker 3: are finally put together. A little bit of consultation needed 201 00:10:43,132 --> 00:10:46,053 Speaker 3: on that because he will be internal assessment still part 202 00:10:46,093 --> 00:10:50,333 Speaker 3: of most courses, and I think that's appropriate as long 203 00:10:50,372 --> 00:10:55,493 Speaker 3: as that internal assessment is very carefully externally moderated, so 204 00:10:55,533 --> 00:10:59,372 Speaker 3: it's comparative between different schools. At the moment, it's not, 205 00:11:00,012 --> 00:11:01,973 Speaker 3: and that's what's causing the huge problem for us. 206 00:11:02,132 --> 00:11:04,892 Speaker 2: Patrick, really really good to get your thoughts. Thank you 207 00:11:05,053 --> 00:11:07,132 Speaker 2: very much. A lot of support on the text machine. 208 00:11:07,533 --> 00:11:10,173 Speaker 1: For more from you, Talk sat B, listen live on 209 00:11:10,293 --> 00:11:13,252 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 210 00:11:13,293 --> 00:11:15,892 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.