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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: He is a former national MP and minister and he

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Speaker 2: was around the cabinet table when this emergency alert system

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Speaker 2: was established. His name is Stephen Joyce and joins us

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Speaker 2: on the line now, Steven, good afternoon.

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Speaker 3: Good guys, how are you very good?

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the show. So was the setup because the

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Speaker 4: technology became available to have everyone's phone with an emergency alert?

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Speaker 4: Is that that what motivated the setup?

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Speaker 3: It became available, and of course at the moment became available,

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Speaker 3: the officials thought it was a good idea. And the

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Speaker 3: minister at the time was the late Nicki Kay and

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Speaker 3: she was a great Minister of Defense and she was

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Speaker 3: on everything and Nicky was very keen. But it is

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Speaker 3: fair to say there was a lot of discussion around

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Speaker 3: the cabinet table about the potential for Mission Creep. You know,

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Speaker 3: the whole idea was it was it at be a

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Speaker 3: for a life threatening situation. People needed to know to

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Speaker 3: do something to save their own lives. And I think

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Speaker 3: you know this is the amount of time it's getting

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Speaker 3: used is probably no surprise to those of us that

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Speaker 3: were a bit worried that it would it would get

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Speaker 3: mission creep over time and potentially therefore lose its effect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so what is the threshold to send it out

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Speaker 4: if it hasn't changed since your time? And who actually

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Speaker 4: makes that decision?

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Speaker 3: I think it has been changing. It's sort of made

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Speaker 3: by civil defense. But as you can see that, there

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Speaker 3: have been other instances, and COVID was probably the first

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Speaker 3: one where it became more of a sort of public

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Speaker 3: notice public information system for a while there, which I

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Speaker 3: think I would require government sign off. And of course

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Speaker 3: at that time, you know, everybody was pretty naturally enough

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Speaker 3: obsessed about all that, so there were a lot of

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Speaker 3: things that were changed and used in different ways of

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Speaker 3: what they were attended during that time. But then you

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Speaker 3: go on to missing people, the lady in christ Church,

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Speaker 3: and it worked in that situation, but that really wasn't

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Speaker 3: what it was intended to do. And obviously that's a

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Speaker 3: decision for somebody other than civil defense, because I'm not

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Speaker 3: involved in things like that. And then you get sort

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Speaker 3: of localized rain for which we had here on the

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Speaker 3: North Shore just a couple of weeks back, where you

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Speaker 3: get a warning that it could be flooding, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I think there is a real risk

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Speaker 3: of fatigue with itcoring it. And even yesterday actually I

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Speaker 3: was at a meeting when the first one came through

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Speaker 3: and everybody's phones went off at the same time, and

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Speaker 3: there was about eight people in the room and of

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Speaker 3: them probably two thirds like, oh god, what now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, was the consideration at the time, Stephen fo

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Speaker 2: levels of alert. There's been a lot of discussion this

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Speaker 2: morning about having some sort of different tone if it

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Speaker 2: was something like we got yesterday in this morning, that

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Speaker 2: it's a warning rather than get out of the house

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Speaker 2: now or hunker down. Was there any of those discussions

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Speaker 2: that took place.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think there may have been, but not formally,

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Speaker 3: because where you end up with is if there's a

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Speaker 3: softer alert, let's say, whether then they just use it

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Speaker 3: more right, So then then it becomes a situation where

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Speaker 3: the government is effectively, you know, using using a sort

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Speaker 3: of national alert system, which, let's face it, is quite

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Speaker 3: an intrusion on people's lives. You can debate the noise

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Speaker 3: and all that sort of stuff, but at the end

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Speaker 3: of the day, it grabs their attention, and so one

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Speaker 3: level it's quite big brotherish, and the idea that you know,

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Speaker 3: you should be providing just sort of general useful, helpful

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Speaker 3: safety tips through these through these systems, I think has

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Speaker 3: gone a bit far, probably for most people. Even I

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Speaker 3: suppose the risk is that if you had a softer alert,

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Speaker 3: then it would just get used even more for those

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Speaker 3: for those situations. And I think probably the real question

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Speaker 3: for governments is under what circums dances should it be used,

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Speaker 3: and to understand there is a risk that if you

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Speaker 3: use it too often, you've got to keep people safe.

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Speaker 3: And I'm certain not arguing they shouldn't be using it

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Speaker 3: in yesterday's event. I think they should have by all

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Speaker 3: means put one out. I'm just saying that some of

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Speaker 3: some people's reactions to that will be in the fact

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Speaker 3: that they got one the rain for a week and

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Speaker 3: a half ago, and then there was a test a

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Speaker 3: couple of weeks before that, and then they get another

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Speaker 3: one at six city this morning, and I sort of think, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you've sort of you are at risk of overdoing it,

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Speaker 3: which was always the potential risk.

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Speaker 4: Do you think that we are it's symptomatic of a

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Speaker 4: society that's becoming too safe and cautious as this Texas says, Hi, guys,

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Speaker 4: this is the problem with health and safety in New

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Speaker 4: Zealand has reached the stage where most of it is

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Speaker 4: just butt covering just in case. He goes on to say,

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Speaker 4: but there is just this feeling that I get when

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Speaker 4: the thing beeps, as I keep saying this hour repeating myself,

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Speaker 4: where I just thought, I bet that's nothing. Do you

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Speaker 4: think we do have that culture?

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Speaker 3: The boy who cried Wolfe scenario right to risk? But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, people do expect to be warned about things.

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Speaker 3: I mean, imagine if imagine if if you didn't put

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Speaker 3: an alert out and then there was a big sun

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Speaker 3: army and people died, then it's understandable and in that

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Speaker 3: situation that the you know that the officials will want

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Speaker 3: to be on the side of caution.

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Speaker 4: But there has to be a line somewhere and someone

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Speaker 4: has to pick it, right.

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Speaker 3: Somebody has to pick the line, and I think probably

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Speaker 3: it's right to pick the line that you know, if

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Speaker 3: there is a risk of lots of life, But somebody

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Speaker 3: else needs to have the cool head and say, you know,

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Speaker 3: we've we've got to be careful that we're not going

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Speaker 3: to over use this thing to the point where it

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Speaker 3: stops being effective and just just upsets people.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for talking to us. I've

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Speaker 4: ever talked to you, Stephen Joyce. I was going to say,

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Speaker 4: I enjoyed your book on the record, but I think

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Speaker 4: that you need to write another book that's the all

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Speaker 4: of radio, because the chapters on radio were so interesting.

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Speaker 4: I've been in radio for years and I didn't know

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Speaker 4: that history. But an incredible time someone well less, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, I'm probably a little bit busy at the moment

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Speaker 3: that you're familiar with.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, very true.

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Speaker 4: Work out three hundred pages on radio in the.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very good, Steven, great to catch up. Thank you

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Speaker 2: very much, and very good to get his perspective being

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Speaker 2: round that cabinet table, which is interesting because, as he said,

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Speaker 2: they were worried about Mission Creep and being overused, which

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Speaker 2: leads credence to your thoughts that it has been overused

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Speaker 2: and there may be a lot of people out there

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Speaker 2: that just aren't paying attention.

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