1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: Is cash really still king? For years? 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: More stores are no longer excepting cash's payment, and it's 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: easy to see why, right with ninety four percent of 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: transactions in twenty twenty four being digital. 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: They're also not obliged to either. 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty three, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 2: found cash usage for every day purchases had decreased from 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: ninety five point eight percent in twenty nineteen to fifty 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: seven point two percent that year. Apparently, just eight percent 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 2: of New Zealanders were regular or daily cash users. But 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: despite all that, today the Reserve Banks opened public consultation 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: on a proposal that would force banks to set up 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: one hundreds, if not thousands, of additional ATMs and branches 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: to make sure people have access to cash. 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: Today. 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 2: On the front page ends at Herald, Wellington Business editor 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: Jene Tebshraaney joins us to discuss why cash might be 21 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: here to stay. First off, Jane, give us an outline 22 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: on this public consultation paper. 23 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: What's it telling or asking people to do? 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 3: Right? 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 4: Chelsea the Reserve bankers worry that over the past decade, 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 4: about forty percent of bank branches have closed. It's concerned 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 4: that people don't have easy enough access to services that 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 4: help them trade in cash. So the bank has done 29 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 4: some spatial mapping and it wants to make sure that 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 4: most people in urban areas can walk to cash services, 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 4: so that could be an ATM or bank branch, and 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 4: most people in rural areas can drive to these services. 33 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 4: So the bank basically wants to set a standard in 34 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 4: place that ensures most of the vast majority of people 35 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 4: have much easier access to cash services. 36 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 2: And presumably they've done some kind of survey or something 37 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: asking people how much they care about cash they. 38 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 4: Have so, according to the bank, people do care a 39 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 4: lot about cash. Only about eight percent of those surveyed 40 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 4: rely on cash. 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 5: Is this sole means of payment. 42 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 4: But the bank notes that about eight percent of adults 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 4: use cash sometimes. Also fifty six percent store cash. So 44 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 4: you know, I had a call with the head of 45 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 4: the project from the Reserve Bank earlier today and he said, 46 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 4: looking ahead, he still believes there will always be a 47 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 4: need for cash. He doesn't see a demise of cash. 48 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: I would be interested though whether what sometimes means right 49 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: people getting cash out to do their grocery shops or 50 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: are they putting a couple of bucks in the vending 51 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: machine for a can of coke, like I wonder what 52 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 2: sometimes is? 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: I guess in New Zealand there are. 54 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: No rules at the moment to protect the use of cash. 55 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: If a business doesn't want to accept it, they're not 56 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: actually obligated to accept it. But the Reserve Bank reckons 57 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: cash still matters. 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: In this respect. What are some of the reasons it gives? 59 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 5: That's right? 60 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 4: So I mean for small businesses, you know a lot 61 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 4: of them trade in cash. And you know, if you're 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 4: running a small business in a rural part of New 63 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 4: Zealand and there's no bank branch near you, it's pretty 64 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 4: difficult for you to get the money that you get 65 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 4: from your customers to put in the bank. So you 66 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 4: might need to shut your shop earlier to travel far 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: to go to the bank to deposit your money. So 68 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 4: the Reserve Bank is saying, you know, more readily accessible 69 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 4: cash services would help productivity of small businesses. Also points 70 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 4: to sort of social cultural things, you know, sports clubs 71 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 4: and things might use cash. I was talking to the 72 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 4: colleague earlier who are as an avid golf player, and 73 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 4: he said, well, you need cash for raffles. 74 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: Fair enough, you do need cash for raffles. 75 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, as you do. 76 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 4: And you know that the bank alls, they said, for 77 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 4: privacy reasons, some people might not you know, it's not 78 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 4: necessarily dodgy, but they might not might you know, might 79 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 4: not want their transactions tracked. So that's the case the 80 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 4: bank makes. You know, you talk to younger people just 81 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 4: chatting to colleagues and other colleagues in the office were 82 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 4: not part of the golf club, and they think this 83 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 4: is ridiculous. You know, younger people don't use cash at all. 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 4: A lot of them you talk to. 85 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: Well, then that's what I mean. 86 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: I know that cash using cash went down over COVID, 87 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: say because we weren't going out nearly as much and 88 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: b we were washing our fruit and vegetables when we 89 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: got home from countdown, so there was no point in, 90 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: you know. 91 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: Using cash. 92 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: But I do wonder how many people use cash still. 93 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's a good question, and I I think 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 4: the bank's consultation, I guess it will hope to get 95 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 4: some some. 96 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 5: Good feedback on that. 97 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 4: So the question I've been asking the people from the 98 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 4: Reserve Bank earlier today, was is the proposed response that 99 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 4: they have to the problem of equity of some people 100 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 4: not having enough access to cash services? Is their response proportionate? 101 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 4: It is pretty dramatic. So the Reserve Bank saying that 102 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 4: if banks met the standards that they want to put 103 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 4: in place, they could do it in a couple of ways. 104 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 4: Either they could all pull their resources and create banking 105 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 4: hubs that customers from any bank could go to to 106 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 4: withdraw cash, deposit cash, or swap it. Currently there are 107 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 4: five of these hubs throughout the country. The Reserve Banks 108 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 4: saying that to meet the standard, if banks pulled together, 109 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 4: they would need to create one thousand, two hundred and 110 00:05:53,920 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 4: eighty eight of these hubs, so the next five exactly exactly. Now, 111 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 4: that would be a pretty big undertaking. Otherwise, the Reserve 112 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 4: Bank acknowledge is actually, you know, banks might not want 113 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 4: to pull together. They might want to have you know, 114 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 4: an A and Z ATM or an ASB one or 115 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 4: so on. So if they did their own thing, Currently 116 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 4: there are just over two thousand bank owned sites like 117 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 4: branches and eighty ms. 118 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 5: Just over two thousand. 119 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 4: Banks would need to add another three thousand to the 120 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 4: mix two thousand. Then on top of that, so two routes. 121 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 4: Either you pull together or the banks do their own thing. 122 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 4: Either way, we're talking substantive investment by banks. 123 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 1: Well how much are we talking here? 124 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 4: Well, the Reserve Bank reckons the cost is not that big. 125 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 4: It's it reckons. It will cost banks about one hundred 126 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 4: million dollars per year. 127 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 5: Now it makes the point. 128 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 4: You know, for banks that's not much money. It's about 129 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 4: one percent of their combined annual profits. Now you can 130 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 4: only imagine what the banks might think of this, probably 131 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 4: not going to appreciate the Reserve Bank forcing them to 132 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 4: spend one hundred million dollars on this. Now, the Reserve Bank, 133 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 4: you know it acknowledges that banks might pass that cost 134 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 4: onto customers. And if it does, the Reserve Bank reckons 135 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 4: the cost wouldn't be that big. Like let's say, you know, 136 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 4: you you have a home loan that might add about 137 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 4: one point eight basis points to the interest rate that 138 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 4: you that you pay. So if you pay four point 139 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 4: five percent, you might end up paying four point five 140 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 4: one eight percent. That is, assuming the bank passes the 141 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 4: entire cost onto you. 142 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 5: Now, well they won't. 143 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 4: They'm not sure that you know, the competition might prevent 144 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 4: them from doing so, but you know, having more readily 145 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 4: available cash services will come at. 146 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: A cost well, and also where are you going to 147 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: put them all? As well as my. 148 00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 3: Question details details details, the bank has done some geospatial mapping, 149 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: you know, in order for it to get to these numbers. 150 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 5: It's looked at you know, having. 151 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 4: As I said earlier, in urban areas walking distance, in 152 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 4: rural areas driving distance. That put some maths around you 153 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 4: know what that means. So they have looked into that. 154 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 4: You know, no doubt this would be a massive logistic 155 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 4: logistical exercise for the banks. 156 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: And I suppose there's the question as well about is 157 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: cash even that productive these days? 158 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 4: Well, that is a fair point, you know, is it 159 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 4: productive for a business to receive cash and then have 160 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 4: to trace off to the bank to deposit it. You 161 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 4: could argue that actually moving to a more cashless society 162 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 4: with some businesses at least enhances productivity, streamlines everything makes 163 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 4: it easier for them to you know, track their sales 164 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 4: and all that. 165 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 5: Type of thing. 166 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 4: Another element that banks might raise is that there's been 167 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 4: this real push against money laundering and you know, cash 168 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 4: it can be beneficial, you can make transactions privately, but arguably, 169 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 4: you know, it's harder to keep track of money laundering 170 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 4: or you know, the drug trade and all that type 171 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 4: of thing. 172 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 5: Now again, we talk to the Reserve Bank. 173 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 4: About this and they said, well, you know, people use 174 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 4: all sorts of methods to do dodgy things like cryptocurrency 175 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 4: or other forms as well, So the reserve banks, if 176 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 4: you don't want to throw the baby out with the 177 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 4: bath water in this regard. 178 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: I suppose it's you know, when those small business owners 179 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: are taking all of that cash to a bank as well, 180 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: if you didn't have to do that, then you wouldn't 181 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: have to risk walking down the street with ten thousand 182 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: dollars in your pocket either. 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that's that's no doubt. 184 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 4: Another point, and you know, different business owners probably say 185 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 4: they've been doing this type of thing for years. But 186 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 4: there is that question as well around the infrastructure that 187 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 4: I was around establishing hubs to transact more cash, but 188 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 4: it from the user's side or from the you know, 189 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,239 Speaker 4: the site of the banks, you know, maintaining servicen security, 190 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 4: all that that goes with it. Do you ever carry 191 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 4: cash nowadays? 192 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: Oh? 193 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 5: Honestly not too much, not too much, only card and 194 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 5: I hardly Hey, yes, I actually have some in my back. 195 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 5: Almost forget how to use a cash Yes, they do 196 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 5: use can. When was the last time you use cash? 197 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 5: Do you think roughly to buy something? 198 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: I reckon maybe six months ago? 199 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 5: Wait, probably three or four months ago at least, if 200 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 5: not longer. 201 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: Keep going out with my friend Rosie when she had 202 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: paid for something online and then I gave for the cash. 203 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: This morning, actually I bought a coffee. 204 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: Well, we know that there's a massive generational divide around 205 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: carrying cash already. Right now, I'm assumed our golfing mate 206 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: is a bit older than the two of us in 207 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: terms of, you know, getting excited about carrying cash around. 208 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: And a year or two ago, actually there was all 209 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 2: this talk about girl math, right, and there was this 210 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: suggestion that when you pay something for something in cash, 211 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: then it's free because cash doesn't matter. There is that 212 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: kind of sense that cash is lesser than I suppose 213 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 2: amongst younger generations. 214 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: Would you agree? 215 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 5: I mean, I haven't seen research on it. 216 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 4: I know the Reserve Bank has done a lot, But 217 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 4: if I did a vibe check on the street, that's 218 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 4: why I after, Yeah, I think I think there would 219 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 4: be a generational difference. Now, where that difference might go 220 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 4: away is if there's a natural disaster and we can't 221 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 4: use electronic waves of transmission, or if systems go down. 222 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 5: Then cash should be handy. You know, that is a factor. 223 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 4: The Reserve Bank, though, is of the view quite firmly 224 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 4: that there will always be a place for cash. Interestingly, 225 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 4: there were in recent years there was the bank did 226 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 4: quite a bit of work on whether it should issue 227 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 4: a digital currency. So that's taking things in a complete 228 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 4: different direction. And Ian Wilford, the person who's heading up 229 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 4: this physical cash work at the bank, he was in 230 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 4: charge of the digital cash work, and today he told 231 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 4: me that they're actually pushing pause on. 232 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 5: That digital cash work. They're going to look. 233 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 4: At addressing some of the issues in other ways, like 234 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 4: looking at modernizing the payment network. So it is interesting 235 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 4: that they do seem to be changing their focus and 236 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 4: going back to good old physical cash. 237 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean going from digital cash and doing a 238 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: complete one eighty to physical cash is a pretty big move. 239 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: And like you said, it's pretty drastic suggesting all of 240 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: these ATMs and and branches, et cetera, et cetera. I suppose. 241 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this. The Australian government 242 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: actually announced a couple of years ago that it would 243 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 2: actually mandate businesses. 244 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: Is that something that the New Zealand government has been 245 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: looking into. 246 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, that is an interesting point in Australia, some businesses 247 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 4: are made to accept cash. 248 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 5: Again, that would no doubt be an equity issue. 249 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 4: We asked the Reserve Bank about that today and they 250 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 4: said that that's something they will consider. 251 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 5: So consider requiring businesses to accept cash. I know, like 252 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,119 Speaker 5: if you walk around. 253 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 4: Cities, a lot of businesses say they don't accept cash 254 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 4: at all. It'll be interesting to see what the politicians' 255 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 4: responses to that is as well. 256 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 2: I suppose I'll be looking pretty closely at how things 257 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: are going in Australia. I understand that it only came 258 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: in January. 259 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: First this year. So basically large. 260 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 2: Retailers have been required to accept cash for a cent 261 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: items like groceries and fuel. It applies to in person 262 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: transactions obviously of five hundred dollars or less between the 263 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: hours of seven and nine. 264 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: They'll be looking at that every you know, after three 265 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: years or so. 266 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: But small businesses with an annual turnover under ten million 267 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: dollars are generally exempt, so I suppose we'll just keep 268 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: an eye on what the ossies are doing over there. 269 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: I saw the reserve bank as one of the. 270 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: Positives of keeping cash around, and not only when you 271 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: spoke about natural disasters of course, and when things go 272 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: awry and when you can't use your card, et cetera. 273 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: So obviously always good to have cash around. But in 274 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: terms of another thing, and I quite like this one, is, 275 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: you know, teaching kids financial literacy is perhaps a little 276 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: bit easier with cash as well, and I kind of 277 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: liked that they had thought about that, and also the 278 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: cultural identity part of it as well. 279 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I know, and you know, the cool stuff 280 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 4: that might go back to my old mates, golfing, raffles 281 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 4: and so on, you know, community groups using cash. 282 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 5: Zero bank recognized. 283 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 4: You know, cash is often used, as you know, at 284 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 4: present or for gifts, and as you say, Chelsea, for 285 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 4: teaching kids about money. I remember as a child being 286 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 4: given two dollars and sent to the dairy with my 287 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 4: sister and we could pick what we wanted two dollars 288 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 4: and you know, painstakingly get a pack of lollies and 289 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 4: you know, and that taught. 290 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 5: Us a valuable lesson. 291 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 4: So the bank is looking at things pretty holistically. It 292 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 4: talks about well being, impacts of cash. I think these 293 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 4: are probably undisputed. I think the question though, is whether 294 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 4: the response it's proposing is proportionate. 295 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So people actually have a chance to have 296 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: their say around this public consultation paper. 297 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: Hey, what happens from here? 298 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, right. 299 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 4: So there are a few documents on the Reserve banks website. 300 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 4: They're actually pretty easy to read. Judging from the our 301 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 4: Herald comments on our website, it seems like a topic 302 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: that everyone has an opinion on. The Reserve Bank is 303 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 4: welcoming public submissions. These clothes in on April ten, so 304 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 4: from that point it all take things further. And then separately, 305 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 4: the bank said that in April or around then it'll 306 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 4: issue another consultation on this Isshow I talked about before 307 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 4: about the modernization of the payments network, so that's going 308 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 4: to be its focus now instead of that digital currency. 309 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 5: So there's a bit on the go definitely. 310 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we'll have to get you back on and 311 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: go through that another time. 312 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today. 313 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 5: Thanks Chelsea, good to be here. 314 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. 315 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: You can read more about today stories and extensive news 316 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: coverage at enziherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page 317 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 2: is hosted and produced by me Chelsea daniels Kine. Dickie 318 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: is our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, 319 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: and our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front 320 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: Page on the iheartapp or wherever you get your podcasts, 321 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.