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Speaker 1: Team welcoming into the studio Stacy May, how are.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Luke? How's it going?

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Speaker 1: An old school buddy of mine. I remember you as

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Speaker 1: am I allowed to say Stacy Smith from back in

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Speaker 1: Ashburton college days.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. That is a few years ago now,

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Speaker 2: isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it far? Yeah? A reminder of how the scends

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Speaker 1: of time flow, and we were part of I reflect

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Speaker 1: on this often with fond memory. We were part of

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Speaker 1: business studies class together and we put together a business

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Speaker 1: of T shirts. Ashburton seen t shirts, remember one that

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Speaker 1: had sheep all over it? And we thought it was

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Speaker 1: really funny to have the caption Ash Barton.

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Speaker 2: I mean we were entrepreneurs from way back, weren't we.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, trail places from wayback. Do you still have your

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Speaker 1: ash Barton shirt?

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Speaker 2: I don't think I ever brought one for myself. I'm frantish.

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Speaker 2: My parents still have probably the whole box of them

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Speaker 2: that they brought.

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Speaker 1: You were the one with business sense. Yeah. There were

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Speaker 1: a lot of charity purchases from our family members link

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Speaker 1: to that thing. So since then, what have you been

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Speaker 1: up to?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Wow? So I finished school and I went to

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Speaker 2: university in Christich and did a Bachelor of Social Work

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Speaker 2: and I am now a registered social worker. So through

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Speaker 2: the years just done a variety of sort of different work,

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Speaker 2: walking alongside all sorts of people throughout our communities, which

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Speaker 2: has been really I feel really privileged and honored to

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Speaker 2: be involved in so many different people's lives through Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It must be pretty rewarding stuff, a.

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Speaker 2: Very very rewarding.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've set up your own week business, may she Flourish?

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Speaker 1: May she Flourish? Tell us about this?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so I've gone into private practice and set up

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Speaker 2: a practice called May She Flourish, which supports and walks

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Speaker 2: like what you.

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Speaker 1: Did with the name. Sorry, just quickly you clicked on

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Speaker 1: finally Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I am a certified Mtricent's coach and register social worker.

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Speaker 2: And basically through my practice, I walk alongside mothers and women,

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Speaker 2: normalizing the challenges of motherhood and supporting them to find

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Speaker 2: ways to I guess ultimately get more enjoyment out of motherhood,

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Speaker 2: to see that they're not alone and the challenges that

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Speaker 2: we face.

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Speaker 1: Let's start by honing in on that big term that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned. How do you say it?

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Speaker 2: Matricance?

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Speaker 1: Matricance? I thought it was on the surface, mattress sense

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Speaker 1: not a smelly thing for the bed. Quite difference.

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Speaker 2: That's actually a good way to remember it.

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Speaker 1: For the phonetic man in the room. So what is this?

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Speaker 2: So, matricance is the definition for the profound, the profound

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Speaker 2: shift that mothers go through, both in becoming a mother

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Speaker 2: and once they are a mother. So matricance encompasses the

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Speaker 2: developmental changes that we go through as women, not only

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Speaker 2: in our bodies, but our brains, our hormones, our identity,

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Speaker 2: how we see ourselves in the world, but also how

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Speaker 2: the world sees us and the world interacts with us,

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Speaker 2: so that different expectations that are placed on us as

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Speaker 2: now mothers as opposed to women.

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Speaker 1: So many different factors at play here. This might come

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Speaker 1: as a realization for some that there's a term huge

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Speaker 1: that summarizes this. It's an actual thing.

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Speaker 2: It is an actual thing. Yeah, it is an actual thing.

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Speaker 2: And that is the exact response that I had, Luke

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Speaker 2: when I learned about matricnce. And it's the response that

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Speaker 2: I get daily when I talk about matriceence that holy shit,

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Speaker 2: this is not an imagined thing that I'm experiencing. It

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Speaker 2: is a thing in a moment. Yeah, yeah, So we can,

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Speaker 2: we can compare it to adolescents. So adolescence we all

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Speaker 2: know and understand, we've lived through, we've all been teenagers.

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Speaker 2: Adolescence is the developmental shift when we go from a

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Speaker 2: child to becoming an adult, and that's a period of

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Speaker 2: our life that is well recognized, well documented, while supported.

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Speaker 2: You know, we go through all of these changes and

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Speaker 2: adolescents where we question ourselves. We're not really too sure

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Speaker 2: who we are. We're a little bit pimply, we make

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Speaker 2: some dumb decisions. But the world sort of looks at

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Speaker 2: us like, oh, yeah, they're just learning their their brains

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Speaker 2: are changing. That's why they sleep so much.

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Speaker 1: Isn't a collective appreciation right of what's happening? Yes and

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Speaker 1: understanding Yes.

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Speaker 2: And in matricence, the significance of the brain changes that

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Speaker 2: happens is comparable with that that happens in adolescents. Wow,

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Speaker 2: And the way that the world interacts and expects of us,

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Speaker 2: But it's not recognized, it's not spoken about. Instead, mothers

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Speaker 2: are just expected to get on with it, often to

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Speaker 2: bounce back to what we were before without acknowledging that

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Speaker 2: we are no longer wh we were before we're birthed

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Speaker 2: a child, and there are so many things going on

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Speaker 2: in our brains and our bodies and the world around

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Speaker 2: us that we're just expected to almost ignore. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: so the word matrescence defines all of that.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy. We've been having babies since the dawn of time?

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Speaker 1: Has it always been this way? Do you think so?

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Speaker 2: The term attrescence was coined in nineteen seventies by Dana Raphael,

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Speaker 2: but it's only been more recently in I think the

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Speaker 2: twenty tens that there was some more research done in

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Speaker 2: term attrescence by Auri Athen, who is a researcher in America,

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Speaker 2: and she sort of brought it more to the forefront,

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Speaker 2: and some people started to do some more research into

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Speaker 2: the brains and looking at the brain changes that happen

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Speaker 2: once women become mothers. But if you are to google adolescents,

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Speaker 2: for example, I think there's like over three million articles

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Speaker 2: on adolescents, but if you were to google matriscins, I

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Speaker 2: think the number is like less than three thousand, And

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Speaker 2: that's come along way in the last few years. But

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Speaker 2: it's relatively new, and it's socialization, I guess. And actually

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Speaker 2: just yesterday there was a meet a campaign in the

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Speaker 2: New York Times where there was a paid article or

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Speaker 2: a paid one page spread in the New York Times

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Speaker 2: that said, id gaf so, I don't give her is

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Speaker 2: in the dictionary, but matrescence is not. It's time to

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Speaker 2: really wow.

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Speaker 1: So from your experience and going on this journey establishing

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Speaker 1: mays she flourish, what are some realizations?

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Speaker 2: Just so much? I think initially it was just that,

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Speaker 2: holy moly, this is actually a thing that like, this

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Speaker 2: is a real thing that I'm experiencing. What I hear

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Speaker 2: from mothers that I work alongside and in my own

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Speaker 2: experience is just the validation of okay. So it's normal

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Speaker 2: to have to question our identity to find those newborn

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Speaker 2: stages especially really challenging in terms of not only trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to care for a baby, but

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Speaker 2: who are we? Who am I now? I've gone from

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Speaker 2: a career that I really loved and enjoyed. I was

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Speaker 2: a successful, high achieving woman. I got up every day

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Speaker 2: and completed X, Y and Z. And now I'm at

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Speaker 2: home with my baby, who I love a lot. But

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Speaker 2: is this my life? You know?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Who am I now? Do I want to go back

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Speaker 2: to the job that I had before? For me, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't see how I could be the mother that

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be and hold myself to the same

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Speaker 2: standards of the employer that I was. So then that

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Speaker 2: really led to me questioning well who am I? And

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Speaker 2: then through that often because matricens isn't recognized, a lot

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Speaker 2: of the quote unquote achievements or success of you as

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Speaker 2: a mother is linked to how well your baby is doing.

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Speaker 2: So if your baby is sleeping, well, are they feeding well?

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Speaker 2: Do they go down and they're cop do they go

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Speaker 2: in the car seat or right? All of these things

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Speaker 2: that actually are often out of our control as mothers

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Speaker 2: are linked to how well we're doing as a mother

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Speaker 2: or not, and the reality is that it's out of

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Speaker 2: our control. A and B. Actually, the focus on how

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Speaker 2: we do define what a good mother is or a

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Speaker 2: good coping mother is actually has nothing to do with

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Speaker 2: the baby.

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Speaker 1: That term good really gives me the eck after going

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Speaker 1: through our journey because so many questions are are they

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Speaker 1: a good sleeper, a good eater, a good baby? What

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Speaker 1: is good?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? I love to answer that one with, well, they

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Speaker 2: haven't held up a robbery, they haven't held up a

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Speaker 2: bank and a robbery yet so I think they're doing

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Speaker 2: They're not dealing in drugs.

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Speaker 1: Just shit anyway. Yeah, I often reflect on this profound

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Speaker 1: moment when we first welcomed Alice. It was down South,

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Speaker 1: and when everything kicks off, you kind of just are

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Speaker 1: led by the experts in the moments you know you're

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Speaker 1: in the hospital, baby arrives, this is what you do

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Speaker 1: in the ward, this and that, and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden they go right, You're cleared to leave. I

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Speaker 1: remember walking out to the car park and secured Bub

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Speaker 1: in the back seat, Amazon the front, and then we're

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Speaker 1: driving home and both are fast asleep and on thinking

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Speaker 1: this is the most golden moment. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: this feels a legal We're allowed to be leaving.

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Speaker 2: Now what do I do?

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Speaker 1: There's no instruction manual that was profound for me is dead.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine what Amber was thinking.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I can totally relate to that. You sort of

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Speaker 2: leave the hospital thinking, oh my, like, is someone following me?

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Speaker 2: Do they think I'm stealing this baby? And then you

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Speaker 2: do go home, but even then, the support or the

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Speaker 2: mainstream media is still offers support specifically around what baby

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Speaker 2: is doing. There are no conversations around how mum is doing,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh to support baby, or what mum's going through.

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Speaker 2: And I think I read somewhere the other day that

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Speaker 2: when overwhelmingly, when women don't have language or the word

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Speaker 2: to explain an experience that they are going through, they

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Speaker 2: internalize that and then blame them. They put the blame

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Speaker 2: on themselves as to I don't know what this is

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Speaker 2: that I'm experiencing. It feels wrong, so therefore I must

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Speaker 2: be doing something wrong, as opposed to I'm finding parenting hard.

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Speaker 2: I'm not supported by my environment and being a mother

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Speaker 2: because I haven't been prepped to know what maternal ambivalence is,

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Speaker 2: what it is to feel the rage that you feel

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Speaker 2: once you become a mother, what intrusive thoughts are, how

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Speaker 2: hard breastfeeding is, how people say breast is best, but

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Speaker 2: actually that's not always the case, and sometimes we choose

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Speaker 2: to formula feed or we have to formula feed, but

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Speaker 2: no one prepares us for the thoughts then of blaming ourselves.

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing this well enough. My baby's not sleeping

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Speaker 2: good enough, so therefore I must be doing something wrong,

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Speaker 2: me the mother, when actually the reality is we are

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Speaker 2: mothering in a world today that's not set up to

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Speaker 2: support us. We are not recognized often. You know, we're

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Speaker 2: there to raise our children as long as we do

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Speaker 2: a good job, as so long as we have good

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Speaker 2: children at the end of it. You know, there's no

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Speaker 2: look into what cost that is to the mothers.

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Speaker 1: They talk about a lot about how it takes a

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Speaker 1: village to raise a child. I feel like the village

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Speaker 1: is still there, but it's changed.

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Speaker 2: You experienced this, yes, hugely. Like if we think about

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Speaker 2: the village, historically the village children used to be raised

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Speaker 2: in a village of you know, aunties, uncles, lots of

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Speaker 2: other children around in the community. There was a lot

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Speaker 2: of support. But now more commonly we are more isolated

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Speaker 2: from our families. We're living further away from our families.

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Speaker 2: Some people don't have family support for whatever reason. And

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Speaker 2: so often our village, if we're lucky, is our immediate

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Speaker 2: you know, our husband or partner. If we're even luckier,

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Speaker 2: we might have some grandparents around, but that's not overly actually,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot of families and a lot of

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Speaker 2: mothers doing it alone.

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Speaker 1: I imagine that only compounds living rurally, which many mothers

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Speaker 1: across mid Canterbury will experience.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, I think because of all of the things

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Speaker 2: that we've just spoken about and this expectation that once

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Speaker 2: you become a mother, you instinctually know how to be

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Speaker 2: a mother, And because we then internalize when something's not

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Speaker 2: going how we imagined it to be, we see ourselves

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Speaker 2: as being to blame. And so there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: shame when it comes to seeking support as a mother

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Speaker 2: because we have to then say, actually, I'm finding this

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Speaker 2: thing that should be really natural, actually kind of difficult.

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Speaker 1: Really joyous, the most wonderful thing ever you should be

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Speaker 1: so lucky, doesn't feel like it at the moment. I

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Speaker 1: could do with some help exactly. And that's where May

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Speaker 1: She Flourish comes in.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so it's not only difficult as a mother to

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Speaker 2: us for help. But then if we add in the

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Speaker 2: rural factor to that, there are a lot of communities

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Speaker 2: here in Ashburn and that are isolated physically, you know,

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Speaker 2: a distance from support that and across the whole of

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Speaker 2: our unfortunately, there is just a lack of resources and

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Speaker 2: a lack of support available when we are in need.

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Speaker 2: So yes, with May She Flourish, my hope is to

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Speaker 2: be an option for support for any mothers that might

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Speaker 2: be struggling. But I also offer a lot of free

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Speaker 2: help and support because I think it's so important to

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Speaker 2: get the word of Matriceens out there. I mean, you, Luke,

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Speaker 2: as a father and as a male, have just experienced

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Speaker 2: this profound aha moment of how powerful it is to

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Speaker 2: have a language for that, let alone mothers that are

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Speaker 2: living and experiencing this every day. So yeah, I'm here

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Speaker 2: in Ashburton with my practice to offer one on one

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Speaker 2: coaching and therapeutic support. But a huge goal of mine

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Speaker 2: also is to just normalize, to get this word out

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Speaker 2: there and for mothers to know that what they're experiencing

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Speaker 2: is not them failing or doing anything wrong as a mother.

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Speaker 1: What a sigh of relief. So how does that process begin,

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Speaker 1: because they could be a scary.

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Speaker 2: Step, massively scary step. Step I can absolutely relate to

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Speaker 2: how scary it can be to reach out for support.

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Speaker 2: Not only to reach I think reaching out for support

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Speaker 2: is actually quite far along in the process. The first

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Speaker 2: step is realizing that ha, actually I might need.

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Speaker 1: Some support in this, yeah true, and.

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Speaker 2: Then finding someone that you trust, probably sitting with it

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Speaker 2: for a little bit, and then finally reaching out, So

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Speaker 2: if anyone is listening and thinks I might need some

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Speaker 2: support or actually I just want to learn a little

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Speaker 2: bit about more about what we treasons is. Who Stacey is,

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Speaker 2: what mays she flourish? Offers I'm on Facebook and Instagram

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Speaker 2: is may she flourish? And then I have a website.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing that I do and offer is

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Speaker 2: gift vouchers. I think, you know, we spoke before around

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Speaker 2: adolescens versus matrescence, and that adolescence is this recognized and

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Speaker 2: celebrated transition in life. We often have eighteenth birthdays, we

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Speaker 2: have twenty first birthday parties where we celebrate this we've

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Speaker 2: made it through this transition. But the closest thing in

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Speaker 2: matrescence is often a baby shower, which is centered on

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Speaker 2: the baby, not the mother becoming. So I do offer

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Speaker 2: gift vouchers, and I think it's a really powerful way to,

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Speaker 2: especially in that anti natal side of things, So before

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Speaker 2: mums had a baby, to acknowledge that if you're finding

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Speaker 2: things hot, here's me someone gifting you a voucher before

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Speaker 2: things get hard, so that you know when they do

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Speaker 2: get a bit hard, that actually that's okay, and that's normal.

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Speaker 1: What a cool idea.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of what I do actually is not

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Speaker 2: like I don't sit there and tell you need to

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Speaker 2: do X, Y and Z, or you should be doing

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Speaker 2: more of this, you should be doing more self care,

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Speaker 2: you need to have better parenting strategies. That's not what

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Speaker 2: I'm here for, and that's not what I do. I'm

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Speaker 2: not I don't want to add to anyone's plate. What

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Speaker 2: I do is I listen and I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of the time, there's just so much power and actually

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Speaker 2: having a safe space to verbalize yeah, booktore, we're what

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Speaker 2: we're experiencing, and have someone there to validate our feelings

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Speaker 2: and then be able to provide a little bit of

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Speaker 2: reassurance that actually this is normal and while something is

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Speaker 2: normal or while something is common, that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: it needs to be your normal, and then work with

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Speaker 2: you to find what fits and what sits right with you,

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Speaker 2: to perhaps work your way out of or towards something yeah,

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Speaker 2: and whatever goals she wants out of that. Some mothers

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Speaker 2: come to me and they just want to vent and

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Speaker 2: to be validated and what they're experiencing. Some mothers come

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Speaker 2: to me and say, Stacy, I'm really sick of feeling

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Speaker 2: like this, and I would like to feel like this,

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Speaker 2: and we work out a way to get there. But

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Speaker 2: as in motherhood, every mother that I've worked alongside, their

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Speaker 2: experience of motherhood is individual, and their goal or what

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Speaker 2: they're wanting from my support is different as well. And

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Speaker 2: often actually what I find is that mums will come

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Speaker 2: to me with whatever is on top, but then once

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Speaker 2: we start digging into it, it's actually not the thing

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Speaker 2: that they came with that turns out to be the

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Speaker 2: thing that they want to work or unpack a bit more.

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Speaker 1: How enlightening, how empowering I imagine too, and what an

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Speaker 1: opportunity we have. May she flourish dot co dot MZ.

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Speaker 1: The website's to connect and I certainly look forward to

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Speaker 1: staying in touch. Great to have you back in town

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Speaker 1: and look forward to seeing you around, Stacey.

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Speaker 2: May thank you so much for having me. Look, it's

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Speaker 2: great to be here and to be spreading the word