WEBVTT - How Australia’s social media ban works – and could it happen in NZ?

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<v Speaker 1>Kiota.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Australia's social

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<v Speaker 2>media ban comes into effect this week when all under

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<v Speaker 2>sixteens there will be restricted from major platforms. We're talking TikTok, snapchat, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, kick, Twitch,

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<v Speaker 2>threads and x and more. The EU passed a similar

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<v Speaker 2>resolution this month, and the UK has introduced age restrictions

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<v Speaker 2>on certain content. But can you really outlaw part of

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<v Speaker 2>the world Wide Web for a generation that has grown

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<v Speaker 2>up online? And more importantly should we? Today on the

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<v Speaker 2>front Page, University of Canterbury's senior Law professor, Doctor Cassandra

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<v Speaker 2>Mudgway is with us to take us through what this

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<v Speaker 2>means and whether New Zealand should follow suit. First off,

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<v Speaker 2>Cassandra tell me about Australia's social media ban, how will

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<v Speaker 2>it work? And I suppose the big question is will

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<v Speaker 2>it work?

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<v Speaker 1>So the law in Australia now requires platforms to take

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<v Speaker 1>reasonable steps to ensure that their users are over the

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<v Speaker 1>age of sixteen years. That's important. So it's not an

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<v Speaker 1>absolute guarantee that under sixteens won't be using platforms. It's

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<v Speaker 1>reasonable steps only, but that law will apply to social

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<v Speaker 1>media services and platforms that host user content, so think Facebook, Instagram,

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<v Speaker 1>x TikTok, Snapchat, and Reddit, and the streaming service Twitch

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<v Speaker 1>is also included in that law. The law does not

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<v Speaker 1>apply at least not for the moment, to messaging services,

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<v Speaker 1>so think Facebook, messager and WhatsApp or some gaming services

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<v Speaker 1>with those communications capabilities like roadblocks. If you have a child,

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<v Speaker 1>you probably have heard of that before. So platforms are

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<v Speaker 1>required to have at least one way or more than

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<v Speaker 1>one way to check their user's age. So the most obvious,

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<v Speaker 1>the most accurate way of doing that is age verification,

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<v Speaker 1>which is uploading government ideas, but the law in Australia

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<v Speaker 1>requires services to have at least one other way. So

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<v Speaker 1>the one that's most talked about that you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>hear a lot about is the facial age estimation tool.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's when they take a photo of your face

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<v Speaker 1>and an AI tool guess is how old you are.

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<v Speaker 1>So the accuracy of those tools are questioned and critiqued,

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<v Speaker 1>so not as accurate, but the most common measure for

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<v Speaker 1>existing users, if you're online right now, will likely be passive,

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<v Speaker 1>so platform will just guess your age based on how

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<v Speaker 1>long you've been on the app and what content you

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<v Speaker 1>engage with. The Other part of the law, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>is we've got the Safety Commissioner that's Australia's online safety regulator,

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<v Speaker 1>so they're going to be in charge of compliance there

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<v Speaker 1>and they can find platforms millions of dollars so very large,

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<v Speaker 1>significant monetary fines for non compliance if they don't take

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<v Speaker 1>any steps.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, so the ban stops under sixteens from making

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<v Speaker 2>their own account, but it still lets them scroll through

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<v Speaker 2>the likes of tech took and YouTube shorts and Instagram

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<v Speaker 2>stories and things like that without making an account. Does

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<v Speaker 2>this protect them from seeing harmful content?

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<v Speaker 1>If they can still access seeing this content then no.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, because they've made that differentiation between the platforms

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<v Speaker 1>ver seeing messages. It means that children won't be exposed

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<v Speaker 1>to recommender systems, so systems that respond to their engagement

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<v Speaker 1>and feeds, and so they won't be funneled down feedback

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<v Speaker 1>works or pipe lines that we hear about in relation

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<v Speaker 1>to harmful content, so more extreme content, soogynistic content or

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<v Speaker 1>content that has like eating disorder type messaging, So it

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<v Speaker 1>will protect them from that sort of stuff, but it

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<v Speaker 1>won't protect them from other kinds of harm that is

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<v Speaker 1>more typical through messaging services in particular, so cyberbullying, deep fakes,

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<v Speaker 1>image based sexual abuse, that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So when we think of teenagers, these guys aren't your

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<v Speaker 2>typical teenagers. So like I, for example, got social media

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<v Speaker 2>when I was late high school, early UNI. Right, these

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<v Speaker 2>kids of digital natives, they've grown up on social media,

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<v Speaker 2>they've grown up on the Internet, and presumably they know

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<v Speaker 2>how to get around these safeguards. There's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>skepticism out there about this not actually working.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they're the wide widespread concern there. So teenagers could,

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<v Speaker 1>for a example, use their appearance accounts, they could borrow IDs,

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<v Speaker 1>they could use age spoofing tools. You can register on

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<v Speaker 1>platforms that don't comply, they're not under the ban and

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian government has been pretty upfront about this. They're

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<v Speaker 1>aware of this, which is why the duty on platforms

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<v Speaker 1>is to take reasonable steps. It can't guarantee that some

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<v Speaker 1>under sixteens aren't using those platforms. So I think that

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<v Speaker 1>we should expect a mix of non compliance, workaround behavior

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<v Speaker 1>and platforms chasing those edge cases where we've got teams

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<v Speaker 1>sort of circumventing, and the other realistic outcome we are

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<v Speaker 1>likely to see is migration of youth to other smaller,

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<v Speaker 1>more fringe platforms or apps which won't come under the

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<v Speaker 1>band but are also probably less moderators, sort of riskier

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<v Speaker 1>apps where we can't protect them or it's more difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to protect them, so essentially it might push young people

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<v Speaker 1>towards those less safe spaces. We actually saw this in

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<v Speaker 1>the UK, although a very extreme example involving adult users,

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<v Speaker 1>but the UK has similar age verification requirements for any

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<v Speaker 1>websites that host pornographic content, and once that came in

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<v Speaker 1>porn Hard, one of the big pornography websites, they lost

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<v Speaker 1>a massive amount of traffic within a day. But then

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<v Speaker 1>all of these more fringe, riskier pornography websites had a

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<v Speaker 1>huge increase in traffic. So we can see it happening

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<v Speaker 1>in real time.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just the act of banning. Like I'm going to

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<v Speaker 3>put Snapchat in the spotlight for this segment because that's

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<v Speaker 3>mainly a messaging app. There is a scrolling feature on Snapchat,

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<v Speaker 3>but it's very minuscule in like what people use it for,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's the way we could move to WhatsApp, and

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<v Speaker 3>we could move to waste messages, which many people still

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<v Speaker 3>already do. But the reason why this band of Snapchat

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<v Speaker 3>it's the way we've kind of grown up with communication.

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<v Speaker 3>It's that sort of informal, casual way of a quick

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<v Speaker 3>visual update with a photo or posting a story on

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<v Speaker 3>your Snapchat. It's just the way that my generation of

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<v Speaker 3>like adapt.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're adapted to find new ways around social media,

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<v Speaker 2>you could adapt to what'sapp right.

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<v Speaker 3>There's definitely ways to adapt. But if there's not a

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<v Speaker 3>problem right now, why change it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've seen that Australian teens are already flocking to platforms.

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<v Speaker 2>And forgive me if I misinterpret this is because this

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<v Speaker 2>my producer has written this down. She has teenage children,

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<v Speaker 2>so she's obviously gone on the hunt for these they're

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<v Speaker 2>called cover Star, Lemonade and Yop. I mean, these kids

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<v Speaker 2>are going to go and there's the opportunity for other

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<v Speaker 2>businesses like like away from Matter and away from the

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<v Speaker 2>big leader Google, et cetera, to really start up these

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<v Speaker 2>fringe kind of that.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's the thing, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Because there's going to be less safeguards. You're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to see the CEO of Laminate at a at a

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<v Speaker 2>governmental hearing in Washington, but you're going to see Mark

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<v Speaker 2>Zuckerberg sit there and have to answer questions and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, yeah, absolutely, And that is the big concern that

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<v Speaker 1>we have. We've got that chase into different parts of

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet in a way that current regulations cannot reach

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<v Speaker 1>because the regulations that Australia does have, and they have

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<v Speaker 1>wider regulations around online safety often target large platforms or

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<v Speaker 1>services that have millions of users, and they're less likely

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<v Speaker 1>to target smaller and smaller apps because of those competing

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<v Speaker 1>concerns around capitalism and the market and making sure that

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<v Speaker 1>smaller sort of companies have room to grow, and they

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<v Speaker 1>might not have the re sources in place. They just

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<v Speaker 1>might not have the resources in place to ensure the

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<v Speaker 1>moderation that you would need to keep young people safe

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<v Speaker 1>a particular vulnerable group.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of how this has worked in the UK,

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<v Speaker 2>obviously you've got the age verification there for certain websites.

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<v Speaker 2>They haven't gone the full hog though with the social media,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I think the EU has also said that

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<v Speaker 2>it will also ban social media for under sixteens. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you reckon what's in Australia and New Zealand, politicians are

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<v Speaker 2>looking overseas and thinking, let's see who does it right,

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<v Speaker 2>because obviously the days of the checking the im eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>box are over. And you know I used to always

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<v Speaker 2>and this is putting myself out there. I'm born in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineties. I would always go nineteen eighty eight, so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a few years older. So those days are obviously gone.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you reckon? We're just sitting back and seeing what

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<v Speaker 2>actually works overseas and has there been anything in the

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<v Speaker 2>UK that perhaps hasn't worked.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's interesting because there's a lot going on all

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<v Speaker 1>at once. So I think Australia was the first country

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<v Speaker 1>to announce that they wanted to age gate social media

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<v Speaker 1>at least lift that age gate up to sixteen, and

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<v Speaker 1>other countries have looked at that, and our following suit

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<v Speaker 1>in New Zealand we have a member's bill from a

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<v Speaker 1>National MP pulled out of the ballot box that might

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<v Speaker 1>be coming in front of Parliament before the election, which

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<v Speaker 1>seeks to do the same thing following Australia's example. So

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<v Speaker 1>Australia has really kicked off a kind of movement here.

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<v Speaker 1>The interesting thing about the EU is that they have

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<v Speaker 1>voted for a minimum age sixteen sort of standard in

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<v Speaker 1>a resolution, but they are still working out other things.

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<v Speaker 1>So member states are still debating whether they allow for

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<v Speaker 1>consent of parents, so parental consent around their thirteen to

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen year olds using social media, so it's likely to

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<v Speaker 1>look a little bit different. Thing about those countries as well.

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<v Speaker 1>The big difference with the UK and the EU even

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<v Speaker 1>and compared to Australia is that those regions have adopted

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<v Speaker 1>sophisticated digital safety regulations. Both have taken a safety by

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<v Speaker 1>design approach, creating sort of legal duties of care on

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<v Speaker 1>those companies to undergo, for example, risk assessments across their

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<v Speaker 1>services regarding online harm and actively working to mitigate those risks.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's more architecture there that the ban or a

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<v Speaker 1>ban would go on top of. It's not just a

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<v Speaker 1>standalone ban. And even in Australia that is the same.

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<v Speaker 1>Australia has an E Safety Commissioner for example, so that's

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<v Speaker 1>the regulator that has enforcement powers. So if you have

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<v Speaker 1>a deep fate that happens online, you want it removed.

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<v Speaker 1>E safety can require those those companies to remove it.

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<v Speaker 1>And if we compare that to US Zealand, we don't

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<v Speaker 1>have these these structures in place, we don't have a

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<v Speaker 1>regulator like that, so there's no standalone band happening in

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<v Speaker 1>those other countries. So yes, we are sitting back and watching,

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<v Speaker 1>but we are, by the looks of things, might be

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<v Speaker 1>heading towards adopting a band without having adopted all of

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<v Speaker 1>these other measures.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, maybe we should, you know, learn how to walk

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<v Speaker 2>before we run.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's essentially exactly what I have been arguing for

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<v Speaker 1>out of my research. It's very clear we should be

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<v Speaker 1>building safer digital environments and thinking about, you know, what

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<v Speaker 1>does a safer digital environment look like an art or

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<v Speaker 1>in our context, and how do we use law and

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<v Speaker 1>regulation to make that a reality before thinking about age bands,

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<v Speaker 1>Because if you have a standalone age band without any

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<v Speaker 1>of these other things, that risk that real risk that

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<v Speaker 1>our kids will just end up in sort of these

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<v Speaker 1>riskier spaces. It's even worse because we don't have that

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<v Speaker 1>architecture in place to enforce wider safety standards.

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<v Speaker 4>There is a very much undiscussed privilege with the idea

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<v Speaker 4>of banning social media because for when you've got a

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<v Speaker 4>country like ours with us mental health specifically system that's

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<v Speaker 4>so broken, and even our education system not that great,

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<v Speaker 4>and you take away free access and free tools, that's

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<v Speaker 4>very detrimental.

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<v Speaker 2>So it seems to me that putting these bands and

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<v Speaker 2>the legal frameworks in place, that's a pretty time consuming,

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<v Speaker 2>it's expensive, and it's a pretty serious measure. So why

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<v Speaker 2>are we doing all of that? I mean, it must

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<v Speaker 2>be harder to just regulate the big social media giants

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<v Speaker 2>if we're going down the legal route.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think it's one year, So I mean you're

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<v Speaker 1>going to have to put funding aside for regulation, especially

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<v Speaker 1>if you set up a regulator, You're going to have

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<v Speaker 1>to set up like committees around what you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>regulate and how, and then you've got compliance and all

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<v Speaker 1>of these things. And I think it's money worth spending.

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean the other side of that, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>is and something that we should be watching Australia for

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<v Speaker 1>first before we jump into the mix, is what other

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<v Speaker 1>companies going to do. We have seen for example x

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<v Speaker 1>formerly Twitter has been rather litigious in both Australia and

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<v Speaker 1>the UK, and you know, taking the governments too caught

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.640
<v Speaker 1>or taking the regulators too caught against certain regulations, and

0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 1>so I would expect that to take place as well,

0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.880
<v Speaker 1>So I think it's a waiting game in relation to those.

0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is concerning though, the rabbit holes that the

0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.680
<v Speaker 2>these apps do take you down. I was just telling

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.120
<v Speaker 2>my colleagues the other day actually that I liked a

0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 2>couple of healthy eating videos on tick. This was TikTok,

0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.440
<v Speaker 2>and a couple of days later and a few scrolls later,

0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.040
<v Speaker 2>I was getting I don't know what the term is

0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 2>for it, but very clearly anorexia content. A lot of

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.280
<v Speaker 2>body checking, a lot of you know, showing off someone's

0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.560
<v Speaker 2>physique from the side them looking very dangerously skinny, and

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:31.840
<v Speaker 2>them being in a hospital room. And the comments on

0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 2>those videos were actually really alarming. They was They said

0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.000
<v Speaker 2>things like body goals and I You're so lucky and

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.280
<v Speaker 2>the things like that, and I kind of sat there.

0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.800
<v Speaker 2>I took screenshots of it because I was so shocked

0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.360
<v Speaker 2>that that just popped up on my feed after liking

0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.800
<v Speaker 2>a couple of healthy eating videos. And you just sit

0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.320
<v Speaker 2>there and think, what are these kids ate those commenters?

0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.840
<v Speaker 2>How old are they and what are these kids getting

0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 2>served up? If they do like a few of these videos?

0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:01.960
<v Speaker 2>What kind of routes do you go down? I mean

0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:02.920
<v Speaker 2>it's terrifying.

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, and you get the sense of especially as

0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.600
<v Speaker 1>a parent, you would get a sense of your hopelessness,

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.560
<v Speaker 1>like how do you control that? And the reality is

0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.760
<v Speaker 1>is that we don't have in place, for example, transparency

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.000
<v Speaker 1>requirements on these companies to be like, well, how are

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 1>your algorithms working? Are they safe for children? But also

0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.800
<v Speaker 1>other vulnerable groups like women and rainbow communities and maldi

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:35.960
<v Speaker 1>And we don't actually understand how harmful content spreads because

0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:41.000
<v Speaker 1>we're not allowed behind that curtain, and so requiring companies

0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.240
<v Speaker 1>to actually reveal that would be a step in that

0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.960
<v Speaker 1>direction rather than shielding. You know, if you put in

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 1>a band, you shield like a group of people from that,

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:55.320
<v Speaker 1>but everyone else is engaging in it, and those ideas

0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.800
<v Speaker 1>spread regardless. And so there must be something else that

0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.440
<v Speaker 1>we can do to look behind the curtain and then

0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.480
<v Speaker 1>see those how the algorithm works, why is it pushing

0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.400
<v Speaker 1>this kind of content? And what kind of moderation can

0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 1>we put in place to make sure that we're protected

0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.359
<v Speaker 1>from these kinds of harmful material.

0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 2>You do wonder as well, if there was a legal

0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.800
<v Speaker 2>requirement for us to look behind the curtain and for

0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.440
<v Speaker 2>these companies to be transparent about how their algorithms work,

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.840
<v Speaker 2>whether the sheer fear from their side of us actually

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.080
<v Speaker 2>discovering how they work changes things. Could changing the law?

0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Could that even be a possibility.

0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely. I mean we can regulate whatever services operate

0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.480
<v Speaker 1>in New Zealand, so it is within our framework to

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.280
<v Speaker 1>do that. And when you've got legal risks in place

0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:57.160
<v Speaker 1>and scrutiny, it changes companies' sort of prior priorities, right,

0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:03.440
<v Speaker 1>and especially if you attach to that non compliance penalties

0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.960
<v Speaker 1>that are significant enough that's going to bring them into

0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.440
<v Speaker 1>like oh okay, well now I have to talk about this.

0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.880
<v Speaker 1>And regulation can seem like a scary thing. We think

0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:20.200
<v Speaker 1>regulation will stop innovation, maybe stop competition in a market,

0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.120
<v Speaker 1>But what it can do is actually provide a lot

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:28.040
<v Speaker 1>of certainty for your users who want to engage in

0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.359
<v Speaker 1>safer spaces. If it is safer in meta apps, people

0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 1>are going to go back to Facebook if it is safer.

0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.080
<v Speaker 1>So there are incentives for companies to do that. But

0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.880
<v Speaker 1>those incentives need to be in place, and they clearly

0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.800
<v Speaker 1>need to be legal incentives because we've had twenty years

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.320
<v Speaker 1>of nothing and this is where we are. We're at

0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.159
<v Speaker 1>a space where yeah, you scroll on those those apps

0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.000
<v Speaker 1>and you come across harmful content really quickly, and we

0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.679
<v Speaker 1>don't want that as a society. I think we've decided that,

0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.040
<v Speaker 1>and so this is one way we can do that.

0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, and perhaps I mean I saw the other

0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.479
<v Speaker 2>day actually as well, I didn't know that the brand

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Lush isn't on social media and it's chosen to do that.

0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.400
<v Speaker 2>So that if they have an ethics coordinator and they've

0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.880
<v Speaker 2>chosen not to be on social media, what if more

0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 2>companies did that.

0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, there is definitely one way you can

0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.800
<v Speaker 1>hold companies to accounts just by not giving them your engagement.

0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.040
<v Speaker 1>And it is the attention economy. The more engagement they have,

0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 1>the more money they generate. And if moreover, if you

0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:37.840
<v Speaker 1>choose not to advertise through the apps, that is also

0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.119
<v Speaker 1>quite powerful because that's obviously where they get their money from.

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:48.080
<v Speaker 1>Connected to that, of course, is political sort of connection

0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:53.280
<v Speaker 1>with social media. So you know, government around the world.

0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.560
<v Speaker 1>If the governments around the world decide actually we're not

0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.000
<v Speaker 1>going to use meta anymore, that would also be a

0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:03.040
<v Speaker 1>huge change. And of course that's difficult because a lot

0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.920
<v Speaker 1>of our information around politics, I mean, that is the

0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:13.120
<v Speaker 1>issue around around culture society. Politics all comes through those

0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.040
<v Speaker 1>social media apps, and I feel like even if you

0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:20.040
<v Speaker 1>have companies saying no, I don't want to engage with you,

0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.359
<v Speaker 1>there's still that foothold. So I think it comes back

0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:29.480
<v Speaker 1>to political will around what you want your people to

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:30.280
<v Speaker 1>engage with.

0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.680
<v Speaker 2>And it also comes full circle as well, saying well,

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.280
<v Speaker 2>why aren't kids outside playing with each other until the

0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.520
<v Speaker 2>street lights come on? Kind of thing. But it's like,

0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.760
<v Speaker 2>we do have to move on as a society from

0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.439
<v Speaker 2>that thinking because these kids, they've grown up in the

0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.960
<v Speaker 2>digital aid, They've grown up with a smartphone in their

0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 2>hand and the tablet and things like that. You can't

0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.720
<v Speaker 2>just you know, what's been given can't be taken away

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.200
<v Speaker 2>as easily. So we probably have to move on from

0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the grazed knees and the I don't know, catching tab

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and things I don't know what we did.

0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean, like it or not. Our social

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 1>and cultural life happens online. It happens offline too, but

0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.040
<v Speaker 1>it happens online for our young people, and in terms

0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.280
<v Speaker 1>of their rights, they have a right to participate in public,

0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.959
<v Speaker 1>cultural and social life, and that happens online, and it

0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.960
<v Speaker 1>is particularly important for certain groups of young people so

0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Rainbow Youth, for example, their sense of connection and community

0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:32.080
<v Speaker 1>might be only online, it might not be found locally.

0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:37.080
<v Speaker 1>So these are important threads in their life that I

0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.120
<v Speaker 1>think that we do need to accept and work with.

0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:42.719
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for joining us, Cassandra.

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for having me.

0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.879
<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.800
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:57.919
<v Speaker 2>at nzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.399
<v Speaker 2>produced by Jane Ye and Rich Martin, who is also

0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:06.080
<v Speaker 2>our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page

0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.760
<v Speaker 2>on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune

0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.800
<v Speaker 2>in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.