1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Australia's social 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: media ban comes into effect this week when all under 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: sixteens there will be restricted from major platforms. We're talking TikTok, snapchat, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, kick, Twitch, 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: threads and x and more. The EU passed a similar 7 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: resolution this month, and the UK has introduced age restrictions 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 2: on certain content. But can you really outlaw part of 9 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: the world Wide Web for a generation that has grown 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: up online? And more importantly should we? Today on the 11 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: front Page, University of Canterbury's senior Law professor, Doctor Cassandra 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: Mudgway is with us to take us through what this 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: means and whether New Zealand should follow suit. First off, 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: Cassandra tell me about Australia's social media ban, how will 15 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 2: it work? And I suppose the big question is will 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: it work? 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: So the law in Australia now requires platforms to take 18 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: reasonable steps to ensure that their users are over the 19 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: age of sixteen years. That's important. So it's not an 20 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: absolute guarantee that under sixteens won't be using platforms. It's 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: reasonable steps only, but that law will apply to social 22 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: media services and platforms that host user content, so think Facebook, Instagram, 23 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: x TikTok, Snapchat, and Reddit, and the streaming service Twitch 24 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: is also included in that law. The law does not 25 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: apply at least not for the moment, to messaging services, 26 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: so think Facebook, messager and WhatsApp or some gaming services 27 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: with those communications capabilities like roadblocks. If you have a child, 28 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: you probably have heard of that before. So platforms are 29 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: required to have at least one way or more than 30 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: one way to check their user's age. So the most obvious, 31 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: the most accurate way of doing that is age verification, 32 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: which is uploading government ideas, but the law in Australia 33 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: requires services to have at least one other way. So 34 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: the one that's most talked about that you're going to 35 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: hear a lot about is the facial age estimation tool. 36 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: So that's when they take a photo of your face 37 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,839 Speaker 1: and an AI tool guess is how old you are. 38 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: So the accuracy of those tools are questioned and critiqued, 39 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: so not as accurate, but the most common measure for 40 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: existing users, if you're online right now, will likely be passive, 41 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: so platform will just guess your age based on how 42 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: long you've been on the app and what content you 43 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: engage with. The Other part of the law, of course, 44 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: is we've got the Safety Commissioner that's Australia's online safety regulator, 45 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: so they're going to be in charge of compliance there 46 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: and they can find platforms millions of dollars so very large, 47 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: significant monetary fines for non compliance if they don't take 48 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: any steps. 49 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: For example, so the ban stops under sixteens from making 50 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 2: their own account, but it still lets them scroll through 51 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: the likes of tech took and YouTube shorts and Instagram 52 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: stories and things like that without making an account. Does 53 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: this protect them from seeing harmful content? 54 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: If they can still access seeing this content then no. 55 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: I mean, because they've made that differentiation between the platforms 56 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: ver seeing messages. It means that children won't be exposed 57 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: to recommender systems, so systems that respond to their engagement 58 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: and feeds, and so they won't be funneled down feedback 59 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: works or pipe lines that we hear about in relation 60 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: to harmful content, so more extreme content, soogynistic content or 61 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: content that has like eating disorder type messaging, So it 62 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: will protect them from that sort of stuff, but it 63 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: won't protect them from other kinds of harm that is 64 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: more typical through messaging services in particular, so cyberbullying, deep fakes, 65 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: image based sexual abuse, that kind of thing. 66 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: So when we think of teenagers, these guys aren't your 67 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: typical teenagers. So like I, for example, got social media 68 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: when I was late high school, early UNI. Right, these 69 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: kids of digital natives, they've grown up on social media, 70 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: they've grown up on the Internet, and presumably they know 71 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 2: how to get around these safeguards. There's a lot of 72 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: skepticism out there about this not actually working. 73 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're the wide widespread concern there. So teenagers could, 74 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: for a example, use their appearance accounts, they could borrow IDs, 75 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: they could use age spoofing tools. You can register on 76 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: platforms that don't comply, they're not under the ban and 77 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: the Australian government has been pretty upfront about this. They're 78 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: aware of this, which is why the duty on platforms 79 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: is to take reasonable steps. It can't guarantee that some 80 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: under sixteens aren't using those platforms. So I think that 81 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: we should expect a mix of non compliance, workaround behavior 82 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: and platforms chasing those edge cases where we've got teams 83 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: sort of circumventing, and the other realistic outcome we are 84 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: likely to see is migration of youth to other smaller, 85 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: more fringe platforms or apps which won't come under the 86 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: band but are also probably less moderators, sort of riskier 87 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: apps where we can't protect them or it's more difficult 88 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: to protect them, so essentially it might push young people 89 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: towards those less safe spaces. We actually saw this in 90 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: the UK, although a very extreme example involving adult users, 91 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: but the UK has similar age verification requirements for any 92 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: websites that host pornographic content, and once that came in 93 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: porn Hard, one of the big pornography websites, they lost 94 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: a massive amount of traffic within a day. But then 95 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: all of these more fringe, riskier pornography websites had a 96 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: huge increase in traffic. So we can see it happening 97 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: in real time. 98 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 3: It's just the act of banning. Like I'm going to 99 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 3: put Snapchat in the spotlight for this segment because that's 100 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 3: mainly a messaging app. There is a scrolling feature on Snapchat, 101 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 3: but it's very minuscule in like what people use it for, 102 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 3: and it's the way we could move to WhatsApp, and 103 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 3: we could move to waste messages, which many people still 104 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: already do. But the reason why this band of Snapchat 105 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 3: it's the way we've kind of grown up with communication. 106 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 3: It's that sort of informal, casual way of a quick 107 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 3: visual update with a photo or posting a story on 108 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 3: your Snapchat. It's just the way that my generation of 109 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 3: like adapt. 110 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: If you're adapted to find new ways around social media, 111 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: you could adapt to what'sapp right. 112 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 3: There's definitely ways to adapt. But if there's not a 113 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 3: problem right now, why change it. 114 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen that Australian teens are already flocking to platforms. 115 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: And forgive me if I misinterpret this is because this 116 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: my producer has written this down. She has teenage children, 117 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: so she's obviously gone on the hunt for these they're 118 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: called cover Star, Lemonade and Yop. I mean, these kids 119 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: are going to go and there's the opportunity for other 120 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: businesses like like away from Matter and away from the 121 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: big leader Google, et cetera, to really start up these 122 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: fringe kind of that. 123 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: And that's the thing, isn't it. 124 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: Because there's going to be less safeguards. You're not going 125 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: to see the CEO of Laminate at a at a 126 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: governmental hearing in Washington, but you're going to see Mark 127 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: Zuckerberg sit there and have to answer questions and stuff. 128 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: Hey, yeah, absolutely, And that is the big concern that 129 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: we have. We've got that chase into different parts of 130 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: the Internet in a way that current regulations cannot reach 131 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: because the regulations that Australia does have, and they have 132 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: wider regulations around online safety often target large platforms or 133 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: services that have millions of users, and they're less likely 134 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: to target smaller and smaller apps because of those competing 135 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: concerns around capitalism and the market and making sure that 136 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: smaller sort of companies have room to grow, and they 137 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: might not have the re sources in place. They just 138 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: might not have the resources in place to ensure the 139 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: moderation that you would need to keep young people safe 140 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: a particular vulnerable group. 141 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: In terms of how this has worked in the UK, 142 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: obviously you've got the age verification there for certain websites. 143 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: They haven't gone the full hog though with the social media, 144 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: and then I think the EU has also said that 145 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: it will also ban social media for under sixteens. Do 146 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: you reckon what's in Australia and New Zealand, politicians are 147 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: looking overseas and thinking, let's see who does it right, 148 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: because obviously the days of the checking the im eighteen 149 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: box are over. And you know I used to always 150 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: and this is putting myself out there. I'm born in 151 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: the nineties. I would always go nineteen eighty eight, so 152 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: I'm a few years older. So those days are obviously gone. 153 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: Do you reckon? We're just sitting back and seeing what 154 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: actually works overseas and has there been anything in the 155 00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: UK that perhaps hasn't worked. 156 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: So that's interesting because there's a lot going on all 157 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: at once. So I think Australia was the first country 158 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: to announce that they wanted to age gate social media 159 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: at least lift that age gate up to sixteen, and 160 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: other countries have looked at that, and our following suit 161 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: in New Zealand we have a member's bill from a 162 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: National MP pulled out of the ballot box that might 163 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: be coming in front of Parliament before the election, which 164 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: seeks to do the same thing following Australia's example. So 165 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: Australia has really kicked off a kind of movement here. 166 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: The interesting thing about the EU is that they have 167 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: voted for a minimum age sixteen sort of standard in 168 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: a resolution, but they are still working out other things. 169 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: So member states are still debating whether they allow for 170 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: consent of parents, so parental consent around their thirteen to 171 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: fifteen year olds using social media, so it's likely to 172 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: look a little bit different. Thing about those countries as well. 173 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: The big difference with the UK and the EU even 174 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: and compared to Australia is that those regions have adopted 175 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: sophisticated digital safety regulations. Both have taken a safety by 176 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: design approach, creating sort of legal duties of care on 177 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: those companies to undergo, for example, risk assessments across their 178 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: services regarding online harm and actively working to mitigate those risks. 179 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: So there's more architecture there that the ban or a 180 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: ban would go on top of. It's not just a 181 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: standalone ban. And even in Australia that is the same. 182 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: Australia has an E Safety Commissioner for example, so that's 183 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: the regulator that has enforcement powers. So if you have 184 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: a deep fate that happens online, you want it removed. 185 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: E safety can require those those companies to remove it. 186 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: And if we compare that to US Zealand, we don't 187 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: have these these structures in place, we don't have a 188 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: regulator like that, so there's no standalone band happening in 189 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: those other countries. So yes, we are sitting back and watching, 190 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: but we are, by the looks of things, might be 191 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: heading towards adopting a band without having adopted all of 192 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: these other measures. 193 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we should, you know, learn how to walk 194 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 2: before we run. 195 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: Well, that's essentially exactly what I have been arguing for 196 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: out of my research. It's very clear we should be 197 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: building safer digital environments and thinking about, you know, what 198 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: does a safer digital environment look like an art or 199 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: in our context, and how do we use law and 200 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: regulation to make that a reality before thinking about age bands, 201 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: Because if you have a standalone age band without any 202 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: of these other things, that risk that real risk that 203 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: our kids will just end up in sort of these 204 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: riskier spaces. It's even worse because we don't have that 205 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: architecture in place to enforce wider safety standards. 206 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 4: There is a very much undiscussed privilege with the idea 207 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 4: of banning social media because for when you've got a 208 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 4: country like ours with us mental health specifically system that's 209 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 4: so broken, and even our education system not that great, 210 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 4: and you take away free access and free tools, that's 211 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 4: very detrimental. 212 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: So it seems to me that putting these bands and 213 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 2: the legal frameworks in place, that's a pretty time consuming, 214 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 2: it's expensive, and it's a pretty serious measure. So why 215 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: are we doing all of that? I mean, it must 216 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: be harder to just regulate the big social media giants 217 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: if we're going down the legal route. 218 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's one year, So I mean you're 219 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: going to have to put funding aside for regulation, especially 220 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: if you set up a regulator, You're going to have 221 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: to set up like committees around what you're going to 222 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: regulate and how, and then you've got compliance and all 223 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: of these things. And I think it's money worth spending. 224 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: And I mean the other side of that, of course, 225 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: is and something that we should be watching Australia for 226 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: first before we jump into the mix, is what other 227 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: companies going to do. We have seen for example x 228 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: formerly Twitter has been rather litigious in both Australia and 229 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: the UK, and you know, taking the governments too caught 230 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: or taking the regulators too caught against certain regulations, and 231 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: so I would expect that to take place as well, 232 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: So I think it's a waiting game in relation to those. 233 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is concerning though, the rabbit holes that the 234 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: these apps do take you down. I was just telling 235 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: my colleagues the other day actually that I liked a 236 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: couple of healthy eating videos on tick. This was TikTok, 237 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: and a couple of days later and a few scrolls later, 238 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 2: I was getting I don't know what the term is 239 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: for it, but very clearly anorexia content. A lot of 240 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: body checking, a lot of you know, showing off someone's 241 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: physique from the side them looking very dangerously skinny, and 242 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: them being in a hospital room. And the comments on 243 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: those videos were actually really alarming. They was They said 244 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: things like body goals and I You're so lucky and 245 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: the things like that, and I kind of sat there. 246 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: I took screenshots of it because I was so shocked 247 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: that that just popped up on my feed after liking 248 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: a couple of healthy eating videos. And you just sit 249 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: there and think, what are these kids ate those commenters? 250 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: How old are they and what are these kids getting 251 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: served up? If they do like a few of these videos? 252 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: What kind of routes do you go down? I mean 253 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 2: it's terrifying. 254 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and you get the sense of especially as 255 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: a parent, you would get a sense of your hopelessness, 256 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: like how do you control that? And the reality is 257 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: is that we don't have in place, for example, transparency 258 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: requirements on these companies to be like, well, how are 259 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: your algorithms working? Are they safe for children? But also 260 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: other vulnerable groups like women and rainbow communities and maldi 261 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: And we don't actually understand how harmful content spreads because 262 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: we're not allowed behind that curtain, and so requiring companies 263 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: to actually reveal that would be a step in that 264 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: direction rather than shielding. You know, if you put in 265 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: a band, you shield like a group of people from that, 266 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: but everyone else is engaging in it, and those ideas 267 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: spread regardless. And so there must be something else that 268 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: we can do to look behind the curtain and then 269 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: see those how the algorithm works, why is it pushing 270 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: this kind of content? And what kind of moderation can 271 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: we put in place to make sure that we're protected 272 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: from these kinds of harmful material. 273 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: You do wonder as well, if there was a legal 274 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: requirement for us to look behind the curtain and for 275 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 2: these companies to be transparent about how their algorithms work, 276 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: whether the sheer fear from their side of us actually 277 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 2: discovering how they work changes things. Could changing the law? 278 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: Could that even be a possibility. 279 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean we can regulate whatever services operate 280 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: in New Zealand, so it is within our framework to 281 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: do that. And when you've got legal risks in place 282 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: and scrutiny, it changes companies' sort of prior priorities, right, 283 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: and especially if you attach to that non compliance penalties 284 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: that are significant enough that's going to bring them into 285 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: like oh okay, well now I have to talk about this. 286 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: And regulation can seem like a scary thing. We think 287 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: regulation will stop innovation, maybe stop competition in a market, 288 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: But what it can do is actually provide a lot 289 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: of certainty for your users who want to engage in 290 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: safer spaces. If it is safer in meta apps, people 291 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: are going to go back to Facebook if it is safer. 292 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: So there are incentives for companies to do that. But 293 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: those incentives need to be in place, and they clearly 294 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: need to be legal incentives because we've had twenty years 295 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: of nothing and this is where we are. We're at 296 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: a space where yeah, you scroll on those those apps 297 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: and you come across harmful content really quickly, and we 298 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: don't want that as a society. I think we've decided that, 299 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: and so this is one way we can do that. 300 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and perhaps I mean I saw the other 301 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 2: day actually as well, I didn't know that the brand 302 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: Lush isn't on social media and it's chosen to do that. 303 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 2: So that if they have an ethics coordinator and they've 304 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 2: chosen not to be on social media, what if more 305 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: companies did that. 306 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there is definitely one way you can 307 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: hold companies to accounts just by not giving them your engagement. 308 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: And it is the attention economy. The more engagement they have, 309 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: the more money they generate. And if moreover, if you 310 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: choose not to advertise through the apps, that is also 311 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: quite powerful because that's obviously where they get their money from. 312 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: Connected to that, of course, is political sort of connection 313 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: with social media. So you know, government around the world. 314 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: If the governments around the world decide actually we're not 315 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: going to use meta anymore, that would also be a 316 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: huge change. And of course that's difficult because a lot 317 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: of our information around politics, I mean, that is the 318 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: issue around around culture society. Politics all comes through those 319 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: social media apps, and I feel like even if you 320 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: have companies saying no, I don't want to engage with you, 321 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: there's still that foothold. So I think it comes back 322 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: to political will around what you want your people to 323 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: engage with. 324 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 2: And it also comes full circle as well, saying well, 325 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: why aren't kids outside playing with each other until the 326 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: street lights come on? Kind of thing. But it's like, 327 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: we do have to move on as a society from 328 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 2: that thinking because these kids, they've grown up in the 329 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: digital aid, They've grown up with a smartphone in their 330 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: hand and the tablet and things like that. You can't 331 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: just you know, what's been given can't be taken away 332 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: as easily. So we probably have to move on from 333 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 2: the grazed knees and the I don't know, catching tab 334 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 2: and things I don't know what we did. 335 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, like it or not. Our social 336 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: and cultural life happens online. It happens offline too, but 337 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: it happens online for our young people, and in terms 338 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: of their rights, they have a right to participate in public, 339 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 1: cultural and social life, and that happens online, and it 340 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: is particularly important for certain groups of young people so 341 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: Rainbow Youth, for example, their sense of connection and community 342 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: might be only online, it might not be found locally. 343 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: So these are important threads in their life that I 344 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: think that we do need to accept and work with. 345 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Cassandra. 346 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. 347 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 348 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 349 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 2: at nzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 350 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Rich Martin, who is also 351 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 352 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 353 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.