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Speaker 1: The first part of the Royal Commission inquiry into the

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Speaker 1: COVID response has been released and it is critical the

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Speaker 1: Auckland lockdown went on too long. Just into Ardurn, referring

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Speaker 1: to themselves as the single source of truth was described

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Speaker 1: as unhelpful by some who submitted, and the vaccine mandates

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Speaker 1: were used too broadly and for too long. Now Chris

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Speaker 1: Hopkins is currently the Labor Leader, was, of course the

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Speaker 1: Health Ministry at the time. Chippy, Hello, you had a

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Speaker 1: chance to read some of this.

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Speaker 2: I've only had a chance to read this, you know,

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Speaker 2: the summary report, which is about one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: pages long. I will sort of make my way through

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Speaker 2: the full report in due course.

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Speaker 1: Do you think so, let me just bring you up

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Speaker 1: to speed with I think what is the most critical

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Speaker 1: part in this report, and this is around the vaccine mandates.

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Speaker 1: They say the vaccine mandates went too far and the

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Speaker 1: vaccine mandates were held too long. Would you agree with that?

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Speaker 2: I mean one of the challenges with a report like this,

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Speaker 2: of course, is that they're drawing on information with the

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Speaker 2: benefit of hindsight. So the issue around whether the vaccine

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Speaker 2: mandates went on too long draws on information that wasn't

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Speaker 2: available to us when we made decisions.

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Speaker 1: Not true, it's information that you did have, and the

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Speaker 1: quoting cabinet papers that you had.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, but they're also making conclusions, like, for example,

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Speaker 2: the information about whether the transmissibility of omicron versus delta.

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Speaker 2: Then information wasn't clear always at the time that we're

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Speaker 2: making those decisions. But actually, an answer to your questions,

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Speaker 2: to be really specific, do I think the vaccine mandates

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Speaker 2: went a bit too wide?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: I actually accept that finding, and so yes, and too long?

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Speaker 2: That one too long? Too long. I haven't had a

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Speaker 2: chance to read that, Chippy, so I do want to

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Speaker 2: do that before I thought.

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Speaker 1: This is you had a cabinet briefing on the twenty

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Speaker 1: second of January twenty two, and it said vaccines show

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Speaker 1: reduced effectiveness against the omicron variant compared to delta. So

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Speaker 1: you knew in January twenty two that it wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to work as well and that the mandates weren't going

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Speaker 1: to work as well, and yet you guys kept the

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Speaker 1: mandates in place until September twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Well, but I mean that's only one paragraph or one

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Speaker 2: sentence out of what was quite a long and detailed

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Speaker 2: briefing about it.

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Speaker 1: But you would have read it because it had this

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Speaker 1: had material effect on Kiwi's lives and jobs, right, So

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Speaker 1: you would have been when you were weighing up as

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Speaker 1: the Health Minister whether to recommend the mandates, this would

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Speaker 1: have been fundamental to your decision.

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Speaker 2: Of course. And actually, you know, we're weighing up a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of factors at the time. None of these

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Speaker 2: decisions were easy and none of them were straightforward. Every

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Speaker 2: one of them involved, you know, quite a difficult set

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Speaker 2: of trade offs.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, actually thank you for raising that

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Speaker 1: because I've been trying to figure out what the trade

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Speaker 1: off was. Right here. You guys are sitting in cabinet.

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Speaker 1: You know the mandates are not going to work now

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Speaker 1: that you've got omicron, and yet you keep them in place.

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Speaker 2: Why Well, ultimately, we were trying to make sure that

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Speaker 2: as as you know, COVID nineteen spread in the community,

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Speaker 2: that is, fewer people got critically ill and as fewer

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Speaker 2: people died as possible.

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Speaker 1: But once the trade offf chippy because it says they

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Speaker 1: say to you, it's not going to work as well,

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Speaker 1: So what why did you keep it?

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Speaker 2: Well? Right the way through the pandemic response. There were

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Speaker 2: just call trade offs. I mean, if you had to

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Speaker 2: take in the view that you know that there was

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Speaker 2: no price worth paying and to be able to save

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Speaker 2: someone's life, we would have made different decisions all the

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Speaker 2: way along. Much of the information that's available now to

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Speaker 2: look at things in hindsight wasn't. There wasn't information that

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Speaker 2: was as readily available.

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Speaker 1: That's not true. I just quoted you information you had

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Speaker 1: at the time. Tippy listened. You know what I actually

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Speaker 1: think you as the health minister. Oh a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in apology for them losing their jobs, don't you.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, like I said, not all of the information

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Speaker 2: was available at the time.

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Speaker 1: You can't use that excuse. So literally just read you

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Speaker 1: something that was a cabinet briefing that you would have read.

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Speaker 1: So do you not think that you owe people an apology?

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to read the report first before I'm

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Speaker 2: make any decisions about that.

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Speaker 1: So you're going to read before I've read the report.

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Speaker 2: So okay, and I'm being as accessible to you as positive.

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Speaker 1: Come on, I mean, here's the thing. I've never read

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Speaker 1: this cabinet briefing before I've read it in this report,

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Speaker 1: and it is clear to me you have read this

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Speaker 1: Habet briefing before you made the decision. This is not

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Speaker 1: news to you. This is stuff you already know, so

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Speaker 1: you should already know whether you owe people in apology

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Speaker 1: or not.

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Speaker 2: You're quoting one sentence out of a report that was

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Speaker 2: written three years ago, So I want to read the

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Speaker 2: full report before I make a conclusion on this.

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Speaker 1: If you read the report and you come to the

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Speaker 1: same conclusion as I do, are you going to apologize

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Speaker 1: to all of those Kiwis who lost their jobs because

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Speaker 1: of a decision that I made?

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Speaker 2: Well? As I said, I mean, I think that I

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Speaker 2: already accept one of the findings of the report, which

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Speaker 2: was that the mandates went too far. So I've already

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Speaker 2: said that, but I want to read the full report

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Speaker 2: before going any further than down there.

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Speaker 1: Now, listen, where's you mate? You Cinda? Is she going

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Speaker 1: to front up about the stuff?

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Speaker 2: I think? I haven't spoken jo it so I don't know.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to ask you that question yourself, Okay.

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Speaker 1: We will, Chippy, Thank you, appreciate your time.

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Speaker 2: All right, cheers.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, Chippy really appreciated that. As Chris Hopkins, labor leader.

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Speaker 1: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive.

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