1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Heather Duper c L forty two members of the King's Council, 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: which is the country's most senior legal minds, are calling 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: on the government to abandon the Treaty Principal's Bill. 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 2: Now. 5 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: They've written a letter to the Prime Minister and the 6 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Attorney General Dutith Collins, saying they've got grave concerns about 7 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: this piece of legislation. Karen Faint is one of the 8 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: signatories and with us. 9 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 2: Now, Hey, Karen, Kilda, give evening. 10 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: Karen, is it fair to say that your primary concern 11 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: here is that what would happen if this bill was 12 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: to become law was that it would rewrite settled law 13 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: around what the treaty principles actually are. 14 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: Yes, that's absolutely right. In fact, they would not only 15 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: rewrite the treaty principles, that would rewrite the treaty itself. 16 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: And that's unilaterally rewriting a treaty without the agreement of 17 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: the treaty partner, which is MARII. 18 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: How would it rewrite the treaty. 19 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: So what they're doing as trying to arrange the Maori 20 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: writer of Tina Ranger Ta Tunga under Article two of 21 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: the treaty. That's the effect of the Treaty Principles Bill, 22 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: and that means that the right of self determination that 23 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: may have in relation to their communities, their properties and 24 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 2: their tongu is no longer recognized. 25 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: But is it not recognized in the treaty settlements in 26 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: that if you if you retain a piece of land, 27 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: if you've given this piece of land back you retain. 28 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: Over it, you do. But that's the pre settlements are 29 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: very limited in terms of the political authority and self 30 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: determination rights that they grant to Ewi. So the I 31 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: think Mali would say that tong ta Tunga is about 32 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: much more than that. It's about having the right to 33 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: be Maori and to govern for your own communities, according 34 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: to Tea Kung, and that that's something that they have 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: had promised to them donating or had guaranteed to them 36 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: in eighteen forty and that David Seymour is trying to erase. 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: And so under the existing treaty principles, how do we 38 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: recognize that right beyond property? 39 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: So under existing treaty principles they're recognized through over forty 40 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 2: pieces of legislation, and there's also recognition in the decisions 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: of the courts of New Zealand. 42 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm kind of looking for an example of how we 43 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: actually use it practically well. 44 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 2: For instance, in relation to the Resource Manment Act, it's 45 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: recognized in the Acts that the relationship of Maori with 46 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: their lands, waters and other resources as a matter of 47 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: national importance. 48 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: Now, the thing about it is, Karen, doesn't Parliament always 49 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: pass laws that rewrites settled law because that's their job. 50 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: They literally pass. 51 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: Law, it is their job. But the difference here is 52 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: that we're talking about constitutional arrangements. So the Supreme Court 53 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: has said that the treaty is it has constitutional significance 54 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: and that's recognized in the Cabinet Manual as well as 55 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: that guides the way executive government makes decisions. And what 56 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: we're saying is you can't just rewrite the Constitution of 57 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: New Zealand without having a proper dialogue about it. 58 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: But it's not actually the Constitution of New Zealand. 59 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: Is it as part of the unwritten constitution? Absolutely, that's 60 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: what we're saying. The Treaty is recognized not only in 61 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: our law, but it's also part of the constitutional arrangements. 62 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: Okay, So if we accept that, so at what do 63 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: you need to be able as a group of people 64 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four in the country. What the threshold? 65 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: At what threshold can we adjust our constitutional documents? 66 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: Well, if you're talking about changing the treaty, then we 67 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: would say it's fundamental that you have to engage with 68 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 2: Maori because they're the parties to the treaty along with 69 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 2: the Crown. 70 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: Okay, So just to be fair, right, we're not changing 71 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: the treaty, we're changing the interpretation of the treaty. And 72 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: even at that point, because you believe the treaty is 73 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: a constitutional document, you need to in order to do that, 74 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: engage with the other signatory. Yeah. 75 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. 76 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: When the courts made their decisions that have led us 77 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: down this path that take us to where we stand 78 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: with the treaty principles, did they engage at every turn 79 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: with the other signatory. But what I'm trying to get 80 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: to is why why can the courts interpret the treaty 81 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: on our behalf but Parliament can't. 82 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 2: The courts interpret the Treaty on our behalf because Parliament 83 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: has incorporated the Treaty into a range of different statutes 84 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: and so. 85 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: So once again the power lies parliflation. 86 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: The power lives with Parliament to pass legislation, but in 87 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: relation to matters of constitutional significance, we're saying you can't 88 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: just amendos. No. 89 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: But what you're also saying, any care, eliaments, what you're 90 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: saying to me courts can. Courts can amend it because 91 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: Parliament gave courts the right to by putting it into statute. 92 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: But Parliament can't do it itself. 93 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying that at all. 94 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: Oh, that's what that sounds. 95 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: No, the courts have a role of bringing the legislation 96 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: that Parliament has passed. But what I'm saying is, well, 97 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: what we're saying as a group is when you have 98 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: a discussion about the constitutional arrangements of our country and 99 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 2: we have an unwritten constitution so it's not as clear 100 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: as it might be with the American Constitution where it's 101 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: written in text, we're saying that that needs to be 102 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: a proper, respectful dialogue, not only with Maori, but with 103 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: all New Zealand. 104 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: Isn't that what we're doing? Like, isn't that what a 105 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: six month select committee process is. It's a respectful dialogue 106 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: with everybody. 107 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 2: No, Because because David Seymour's gone straight to the bill 108 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: and drafted the bill without engaging with the experts. 109 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: But that's that's how parliament works. You generally turn up 110 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: with a piece of legislation, you have a discussion at 111 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: the select committee stage, you amend it to reflect what 112 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: everybody says, and then you pass it if you can. 113 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I'm not I'm not saying that that's 114 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: not the way that works. That's how legislation has passed. 115 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: But we're saying when you have constitutional issues that needs 116 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: a much broader conversation. 117 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: Okay, nationally, right, Karen, thank you. I really appreciate you 118 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: just flashing out those issues for us. Appreciated. That's Karen 119 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: faint Casey. For more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen 120 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, 121 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.