1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: Time for politics Wednesday. Mark Mitchell's with us along with 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Jinny and this morning to you both. 3 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 2: Morning, Mike, morning, Jeff, Good morning to you both. 4 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Right, So to you first, Jinny, because we've sort of 5 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: heard from Mark and the news today and we've heard 6 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: from Chambers of course, so a lot of people immediately 7 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and this is the fascinating thing about politics days and 8 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: dates and times. Most people want me to grill you 9 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: and nail you to the wall because you were the 10 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: police minister when Costa god appointed, which of course you'll 11 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: immediately tell me is not the case, won't you. 12 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: Well, no, I wasn't when he was appointed. He was 13 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: already commissioner when I was Minister. 14 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Of Place exactly. So just for the record, you know 15 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: what about any. 16 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 2: Of this, I was not informed. Nothing was raised with 17 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: me during my time as Minister for Police. But saying that, 18 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: and having read that report in the small hours of 19 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: this morning, we understand that there's been multiple emails sent 20 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: to multiple ministers officers and so that search is now 21 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 2: going on to see if there were emails sent it 22 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 2: were raised. 23 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: If you got sent emails, it would it be unusual, 24 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: I mean, how many emails as a minister would you 25 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: receive on any given week or month, And would it 26 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: be unusual if I wrote to you and said, I 27 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: want you to look at this because I've got a 28 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: problem that you wouldn't see it. And is that a 29 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: dereliction of some sort of duty. 30 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, we get hundreds and Mark will be the same. 31 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: You get hundreds of emails, and specifically in the police portfolio, 32 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: you do get a range of different accusations coming and 33 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: you try, you know, offer staff are trained to set 34 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: through those to the best of their ability and take 35 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: the right action with each of those emails. 36 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: Now you did get emails, Mark, You're you're saying this 37 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: morning that costs have blocked you from seeing them. 38 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, they just they put a protocol in place whereby 39 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 3: I was not to have visibility on it or any 40 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 3: of my political stuff, and they were going to be 41 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,919 Speaker 3: handled by P and HQ. So I had no visibility 42 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: on any emails that I received. You know that came 43 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 3: through my office. 44 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Is the request to be asked that if your office 45 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: did receive emails and the police were going, we'll take 46 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: care of it. Thank you very much. That no one 47 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: in your office at any point would go that's interesting. 48 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: Mark By the way do you realize this is going on? 49 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 3: Well, I think the context around it is that because 50 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: number one, I just want to say that my police 51 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 3: private sex in my office, who are police employees, are 52 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: quite simply outstanding. They had no reason to question an 53 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 3: instruction coming from P and HQ, particularly the Commissioner's office, 54 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 3: because they would have thought, oh, this is great. The 55 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 3: commissioner is dealing with this, so you know it's been 56 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 3: dealt with at the highest level, so you know there's 57 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: nothing on them at all. They are outstanding, they do 58 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: a great job. But quite simply, it was a protocol 59 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 3: that was put in place that is really consistent with 60 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 3: the bad behavior that we've seen bought Ford and highlighted 61 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 3: in the IPCA report, which meant that I got no 62 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 3: visibility on them. 63 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: I asked Chambers this interested in your view, Mark, who's 64 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: the bigger the criminal? I use the word loosely, who's 65 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: the bigger criminal in this cost or MC skimming mc 66 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: skimming for doing what he's clearly done and the court 67 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: admitted to in the rest of it or cost of 68 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: for covering it. 69 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: Well, I think obviously MC skimming. I can't talk to 70 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 3: the to the court case because although he's pled guilty, 71 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 3: they still have sencing to come up. What I'd say, 72 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 3: Mike is that all of them are, in my view, 73 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: are as bad as each other. It is atrocious behavior. 74 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: They have put the rest of our outstanding police officers 75 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 3: in an awful position, who turn up every day and 76 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: quite simply do outstanding work. You know, they've all been 77 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 3: moved on. It's up to myself and the Commissioner now 78 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 3: to work hard and put in place measures that people 79 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 3: the public can have confidence that this will not happen again. 80 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: Have they been moved on and retired and have got 81 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: payouts or and or is there any criminal activity involved 82 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: or pending criminal activity something. 83 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: That the commission and the police that's operational. They'll have 84 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 3: to have a look at all that I can say. 85 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 3: And again I'm not going to talk to each individual 86 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: employment case, but all I'd say is that all of 87 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: them have moved on. They have all gone and that 88 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: was the right thing to do, without a doubt. When 89 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 3: you read the IPCA report. 90 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: Is there any political blowback, Jenny, not for you personally, 91 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: but for the labor government. I mean, Costa was an 92 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: out of the box appointment, was a captain's call from 93 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: adern back. I'm assuming by Nash at the time he 94 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: was seen as like political, is there problems for you 95 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: down the track or not. 96 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: The fact that nothing was raised with me, or with 97 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 2: other ministers of Police or even with the Prime Minister 98 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: demonstrates that there was a real failure there, a failure 99 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: of duty on behalf of police to keep people informed. 100 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 2: And my main issue is that New Zealanders should have 101 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: every confidence that if they take a complaint to police 102 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: that it is investigated fully, and particularly for sexual violence, 103 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: we know we have that underreported and so that is 104 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: my problem is that it does erod public trust and 105 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 2: confidence that taking a complaint forward will be taken seriously 106 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: and investigated. 107 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: Mark, if Costa can turn an eye or a blind 108 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: eye to this, what else did he turn a blind 109 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: eye to? And when will you be able to answer 110 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: that question definitively? 111 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that without a doubt, Commissioner Chambers will 112 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: be going back now and they'll be doing their own 113 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 3: pretty thorough internal investigations based off the IPCA report that's 114 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: come out. I mean, for both of us now, we're 115 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: really focused on making sure that we give the public 116 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 3: a sense that we're moving quickly, and we're doing the 117 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 3: things that we need to do to prevent this from 118 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 3: happening again, and obviously making sure that we are supporting 119 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 3: and reinforcing our front line who unfairly will be dragged 120 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: into this because every day we've got our fifteen thousand 121 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: stuff that get up and just quite simply do outstanding 122 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: work for me, you know. Sort of five months into 123 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 3: the job as the new minister, I was bringing forward 124 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: concerns for the PSC about the capability and delivery of 125 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: the of the police Executive. I didn't have much confidence 126 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: in them. And the only reason I can think of 127 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 3: that that Labor themselves, this was their executive that they 128 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 3: appointed didn't do that is because they had a rolling 129 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: mall of ministers. They had Poto Williams, Chris Hipkins, Stuart Nash, 130 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 3: Meghan Woods and Jinny. But the reality is we just 131 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 3: got to look forward and we just got to make 132 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: the changes now and put the things in place to 133 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: be able to fix this and give the public assents 134 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 3: that they've got every reason to be able to have confidence. 135 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 3: We've appointed an outstanding commissioner, Richard Chambers. The actions that 136 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 3: he's taken in his first twelve months around the refocus 137 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 3: on integery and standards has been outstanding, and I know 138 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: that I made some you know, my first twelve months 139 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 3: I had a big focus on that too, because I 140 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 3: did feel like there had been a degradation and focus 141 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 3: around standards. 142 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: Yeahs Mark, I don't want to turn this political this morning. 143 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: There's a difference between being useless and being well. You know, 144 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: once again loosely used a crook, Jenny, if I'd come 145 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: to you as minister and said, look, you got half 146 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: a dozen in there that are clearly up to no good, 147 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: would you have been surprised. 148 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: We had absolutely no information from police that this was occurring, 149 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: and so of course we have high expectations of the 150 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: level of service and the duty of police, and we 151 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: had trust and confidence at that point in time that 152 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: they were doing their work. 153 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: Well, what a happen? 154 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: So what we do support though, and I think it's 155 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: I've been encouraged to date that there's been some good 156 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: recommendations set forward of how we work, whether you're labor 157 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: or national on how we got this right. And I 158 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: think the recommendations to try and restore public confidence, including 159 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: the appointment of Inspector General, is something that we can 160 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: both work on together. And essentially I think we need 161 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: to do remove the politics from this because I think 162 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: it is so important that New Zealanders have that trust 163 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: and confidence restored in New Zealand police that this is 164 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: something that goes beyond political lines. 165 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: Do you know, either of you? So Costa loses his 166 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: job now, I'm assuming assuming also he's done nothing wrong 167 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: in his new job. Does he walk with a payout? 168 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 3: I can't, to be honest with you, as a minister 169 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 3: might I can't speak to that because there is a 170 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: psc process underway and I can't compromise that. Sorry, look 171 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: at Patter if he did, would it looked bad? Well, 172 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 3: I think most members of the public would. That would 173 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: be their view on it. You know. I just think 174 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 3: that we've got a lot of work to do, without 175 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: a doubt, and we're just getting on with it. And 176 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 3: you know that the enormity and the size and the 177 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 3: atrocious behavior of our most senior police officers in the 178 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: country is a complete and utter, you know, breaking the 179 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 3: trust that they have with the public. We've got to Yeah, 180 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 3: it is. And but but the one thing I'd say, Mike, 181 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: if I just finish on this is it is In 182 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks, I've been to several awards 183 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 3: ceremonies for our police. Most of those awards that have 184 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: had that our police officers that have put themselves at 185 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: risking their own lives on the line to save members 186 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: of the public. That's what they do every day. They 187 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 3: deserve to have our support. This is a very small 188 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: bunch of individuals at the top of the organization. I 189 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: get that, and I recognize that we're going to move 190 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 3: to make sure that we fix it. Yes, we are 191 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 3: going to put an inspector general in place. That's important now, 192 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: and I just want to give everyone a sense that 193 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 3: both the Commissioner and I are working very hard to 194 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 3: make sure that we can maintain public support and our police, 195 00:09:58,840 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: and that we continue support. 196 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: Well said Ginny, you can answer on behalf of both 197 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 1: of you, because I've got a bit of this this morning. 198 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: I don't believe it's represented at the white of public, 199 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: but this is nevertheless, Mike, these two politicians covering their asses. 200 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: How can anyone trust politicians and police? 201 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: You say, what, Well, it's very clear that nothing was 202 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: raised with me during my time as police Minister by 203 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: the police. So if we don't have that information and 204 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: we're not briefed on what is happening, then it removes 205 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: their ability to act decisively. And I think that any 206 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: minister are respective of the political party, if they were 207 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: provided with this information, they would not have appointed those 208 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: people and they would have taken action. 209 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 3: Well, see, appreciate actions speak louter than words, and we 210 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 3: just got to get on and do actions. Now. 211 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Ginny Anderson, Mark Mitchell. 212 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 3: For more from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 213 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 3: news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 214 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 3: the podcast on iHeartRadio.