1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: We're about to talk about one of my favorite books. Now, 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: if you're a regular listener to the show, you'll know 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: that I am a ridiculously huge fan of The Anxious 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: Generation by Jonathan Height. In the book, Jonathan makes the 5 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: case that kids today are increasingly suffering from anxiety and 6 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: depression simply because they don't play enough, and instead they 7 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: sit around on the phones and the social media. Jonathan 8 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: Height is based in New York. Jonathan, Hello, Hello Heather, Jonathan. 9 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: Can I stop by saying I love the book? I mean, 10 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 1: obviously I'm a parent, so obviously I did. Do you 11 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: get that a lot? 12 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: I do. No one has ever really stopped me in 13 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: the street to thank me for my work. I mean 14 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: it's happened occasionally, but once this book came out, what's 15 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: happening is that mothers, it's almost always mothers are stopping 16 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: me in the street and saying thank you because they've 17 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 2: just been up against this, they felt it, and so yeah, 18 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: it's been really fun to see the reception. 19 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: What do you think it is? I mean, do you 20 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: think that maybe mothers and maybe in a way all 21 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: of us humans kind of understood that there was something 22 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: wrong with what was going on, and then something weird 23 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: about the impact that social media was having, but we 24 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: couldn't quite put it into words, and you kind to 25 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: put flesh on those bones. Do you think that's what 26 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: it is? 27 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's exactly what it is. But just 28 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: to go a little further, I would say that wherever 29 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: smartphones were introduced, they are amazing devices. They're always more 30 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: interesting than anything else that could be going on. So 31 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: wherever smartphones have been introduced, family life has turned into 32 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: a fight over screen time, over phone use. And that's 33 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: true in all the countries that I've been to and 34 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: the countries that I haven't been to. And I think 35 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: mothers were just much more aware of the struggle. They 36 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: were often more involved in the struggle. And the main 37 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: thing though, I think is that mothers often they just 38 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: feel they feel the relationship changing more than fathers do. 39 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: Women are just more sensitive to the nature of a 40 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: relationship as it's changing. And when you give your happy, funny, 41 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: smart ten year old a smartphone and then a few 42 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: months later, you can't really get their attention and they 43 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: seem always focused on it. I think mothers felt that 44 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: more than fathers did. 45 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: What do you think and look this is my family 46 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: asking this question. Now, kids are always too young to be 47 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: on smartphones, but we obviously work on them. So how 48 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: do you balance that with the kids? Do you how 49 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: do you not be on this? Do you have to 50 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: not be on the smartphones at all? Or do you 51 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: have to explain to the kids, I'm going to use 52 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: my phone now to do some work. How do you 53 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: do that? 54 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, first of all, teenagers in particular are not 55 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: copying their parents. If you pick up a good habit, 56 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: if you start reading the Economist magazine, no eleven year 57 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: old is going to say, well, mom was reading the Economist, 58 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: I am going to read them. That's not the way 59 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: it works. Now with little kids, it really matters what 60 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: you do. When you have a one or a two 61 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: year old and you are doing what is called continuous 62 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: partial attention, that's where you're trying to do your email 63 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: while also kind of interacting with your toddler. So that 64 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: is definitely bad because the child is forming her internal 65 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: mental models of you and of the world. And if 66 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: if you as an attachment figure, if you're only paying 67 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: partial attention, you're more on your phone, that is bad. 68 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 2: So don't do that. But I think You don't have 69 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: to blame yourself so much. If you are using your 70 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: phone sometimes, just be sure to have lots of good times. 71 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: Put it this way, if you're with your kid, try 72 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,839 Speaker 2: to really be with your kid. If they don't see 73 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: you doing some work when you're on your phone for 74 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: an hour, that's okay. Look, mom and dad do work. 75 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: Jonathan on the social media thing, on the banning of 76 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: the kids. We are considering this as a country, and 77 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: the biggest argument that we get against it is that 78 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: it's technologically not possible. 79 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 2: Is that true, Jonathan, Well, I can't force myself to 80 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: laugh on command, but I'll try. Ha ha ha. There 81 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: are so many industries that already agegate. There are already 82 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: and if you want to gamble by alcohol, there are 83 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: lots of industries that age gate. There are dozens of 84 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: companies that offer age gating. There are so many of 85 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: them that they have their own trade association. They have 86 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: had it for at least five or six years when 87 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: I first noticed it, and the technology gets better all 88 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: the time. So the idea that we can't do this 89 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: is absurd. These companies are brilliant. They can do anything 90 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: if they're motivated to and right Now, current law in 91 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: the United States and most other countries strongly incentivizes them 92 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: to not know the age. American law was written so 93 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: the companies cannot take data from children without their parents' 94 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: permission unless the child is thirteen years old or older. 95 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 2: But they put into law that as long as the 96 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: company doesn't have positive information that the child is under thirteen, 97 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: then they can do whatever the hell they want to them. 98 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 2: So that's the way American law is written. Unfortunately, we 99 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: cause this problem, but the companies actually do know how 100 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: old people are, so it's not a question of whether 101 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: we can age gate. We have to. I mean, the 102 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: idea that children can go everywhere on the internet, talk 103 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 2: with strangers, get sex storted, but you know, buy drugs. 104 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: I mean, this is complete insanity. So it's just a 105 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: question of when it's going to happen, and the answer 106 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: is November because Australia said, look, you guys have to 107 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 2: just do this, and the government there is working with 108 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 2: the platforms. There are lots and lots of ways to 109 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: do it. It doesn't have to work perfect in the 110 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: first year, but the way the technology is, it will 111 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: get so much better once they're motivated to actually solve 112 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: the problem that they created. 113 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: Are you sure, Jonathan, are you sure sure sure that 114 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: this is not a moral panic on our part? 115 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 2: Well, look, as a scientist, I can never say I'm 116 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: one hundred percent sure about anything. But let me address 117 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 2: the moral panic concern, because that's a common one, the 118 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: idea that, oh, this is just what we said about 119 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: comic books and television, and oh, let's go back to 120 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: Socrates who said this about writing. Sure, you know, adults 121 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: are always concerned about a new technology. And first of all, 122 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: you know, some of the past technologies have been dangerous, 123 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 2: even television. If you let your kids watch five hours 124 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: a day when they're three years old, that actually has 125 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: been shown to harm them. But in previous episodes that 126 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: were called moral panics, they're so different from this one. 127 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: The main one is that a previous moral panic is 128 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: one that's spread through the media. And so did you 129 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 2: hear the one about the kid who read a comic 130 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: book and then ax murdered his mother, Like you know, 131 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 2: stories like that go around. It probably never happened even once, 132 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: and if it happened, it happened once. But did you 133 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: hear about the mother who gave her kid a smartphone? 134 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 2: And the kid became addicted and then got sex storted 135 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: and then got into We all know that family. Because 136 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 2: this is not spread through the media. This is spread 137 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: by the fact that it's something like one out of 138 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: three families, you're going to have a kid who is depressed, anxious, suicidal, 139 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: and it's often related to what they're doing online. We're 140 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: all seeing this. One other difference I should point out 141 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: in previous moral panics, the kids weren't saying these comic 142 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: books are terrible for us, help help us get off 143 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: comic books that didn't happen. But when we survey members 144 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: of gen Z about social media, they're pretty negative about it. 145 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: They regret what it did to them. They wish they 146 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 2: didn't have to be on it, but they say they 147 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: have to because everyone else is on it. So no, 148 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: I don't accept that, Oh, there's nothing going on here, 149 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: nothing to see here, asked adults freaking out. No, I'm 150 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 2: quite confident that that is not true. 151 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: Jonathan, Thank you so much for your time. It's been 152 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: an absolute pleasure to talk to you, and just wonderful book. 153 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: Thank you for writing it. Jonathan Hite, who is the 154 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: author of The Anxious Generation. Listen if you're interest I mean, 155 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: obviously read the book if you're a parent, but if 156 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: you're interested in just having a little dope, If you 157 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: don't want to spend the money but you still want 158 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: to get the info, head along to the Anxious Generation 159 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: dot com. That's his website, and then he and his 160 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: team also put out all of their research for free 161 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: on substack, and his substack is after bable Let's be 162 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: a B E L dot com. 163 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 164 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 165 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio