1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Gilda. 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The battle 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: over gender and definitions is building steam in New Zealand. 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: New Zealand First has introduced a member's bill that would 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: ensure the biological definition of a man and woman are 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 2: defined in law. It comes after a landmark ruling in 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: the United Kingdom where Supreme Court judges unanimously ruled a 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: woman is defined by biological sex under equalities law. The 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: court sided with a women's rights campaign group that argued 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: sex based protections should only apply to people that were 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: born female. Judge Lord Hodge said the ruling should not 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: be seen as a triumph of one side over the 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: other and stressed that the law still it gives protection 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: against discrimination to transgender people, but it was largely seen 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 2: as a victory by campaigners, while trans rights activists have 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: called the ruling a huge blow to some of the 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: most marginalized people in our community. To discuss this issue 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: today on the Front Page, we're joined by University of 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: Waikato Professor of Sociology and Social Policy, Katrina Rowan. So. 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: First off, Katrina, it has been a fixation. I suppose 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: of anti woke activists for a while now to get 23 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: people to define what a woman is. But what are 24 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: some of the definitions that you've seen? 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 3: Oh, definitions that I've seen are much more diverse, I 26 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 3: think than could possibly be legislated. So I think the 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 3: initiative to define what a woman is is being driven 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: by the belief that there are just two sexes and 29 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: two genders, whereas I'm much more used to seeing in 30 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 3: my work in gender studies, to seeing the idea that 31 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: we can define our genders much more broadly, that there 32 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 3: are many genders, and that gender expression is something that 33 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 3: can be explored throughout one's lifetime. It doesn't have to 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 3: fit into a fixed category at all, that might change 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 3: over the course of time. 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 2: Where is this desire to define a man and define 37 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: a woman come from? Do you think? 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 3: I think in some instances it comes from curiosity and 39 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 3: from a desire to understand, which is fair enough. And 40 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: then for some instances it comes more from a fear 41 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: or a dislike of the unknown, and so it can 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: take quite a hostile kind of tone sometimes. So defining 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 3: what these categories mean is a perfectly reasonable question that 44 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 3: we would pursue in research. For instance, what do people 45 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 3: mean when they identify as a man or a woman. 46 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: We could ask that sort of question, but then sometimes 47 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: the task of defining what it means gets to be 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: much more judgmental and much more sort of with assumptions 49 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: attached to it, assumptions about whether or not you might 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 3: belong as a woman or a man, and more of 51 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 3: an assumption that we would exclude people who don't seem 52 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 3: to fit. So, I think the desire to understand things 53 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: seems very reasonable, but it's when it is used to 54 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 3: produce an exclusionary understanding that it really becomes a problem 55 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 3: for us, because it ends up excluding anyone who doesn't 56 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: fit into those predetermined definitions, the binary definition of woman 57 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 3: and man, which I think is where the current debate 58 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 3: is focused. 59 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: This conversation has obviously come after the Supreme Court ruling 60 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: in the UK. Can you talk us through that and 61 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: why has that case been seen as a kind of 62 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: when for women by some and how did this even 63 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: become a women's rights issue? 64 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we need to see this in the 65 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: context of why it wider spectrum of political changes globally 66 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: at present, we've got in the us, we've got a 67 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: roll back of anything to do with diversity and gender 68 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: and women as well. We've got in the UK is 69 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 3: as you say, the Supreme Court ruling, which some might 70 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 3: see as a win for women, But I would caution 71 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 3: about that because I think from a feminist perspective, it's 72 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: important that we understand feminism as thinking carefully about gender 73 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 3: power relations, working towards change to address inequities, and simply 74 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 3: defining categories is not going to do that, And certainly 75 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: defining categories as an illegal definition of what is a 76 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 3: woman that is not going to embrace diversity at all. 77 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 3: That's going to simply exclude people. It's really going to 78 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 3: exacerbate current issues with inequities. And so I'm very concerned 79 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 3: if al Tardo New Zealand would be looking to move 80 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 3: in that direction. I think it is something that's happened 81 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 3: currently in the UK because of the current political climate, 82 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: but it wouldn't make sense for us to follow that 83 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 3: at all. 84 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: And we do, I suppose in New Zealand have a 85 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: different attitude towards trans rites. I mean, I'm thinking of 86 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 2: Georgina Bayer. 87 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 4: Why do you hate people like us so much? Be 88 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 4: real Christians? I'm going to come a longage in every 89 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 4: one of you. I don't mind at all your hatred. 90 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 4: It's totally intolerable. You dare you use the cloak of 91 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 4: Christianity when you are impart into your children prejudice, discrimination. 92 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: Door people like me days and lesbians and other people 93 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 3: who live. 94 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 4: Differently, better by the law and pay their taxes. 95 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: Why do you do this to us? Do you think 96 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: that even the what's happening in the UK and the 97 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: US can even be translated here? 98 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 3: I don't think it can or should be translated here. 99 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 3: As you say, New Zealand has led the way for 100 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 3: a long time in terms of both trans rites and 101 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 3: also gender rights more broadly that women's opportunity to vote 102 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 3: in national elections. You know, New Zealand led the way 103 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: in that, and also we've led the way in terms of, 104 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: as you say, Georgina Bayer having a openly trans mayor, 105 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 3: and numerous other things as well. I think, for instance, 106 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: intersex advocacy in Altito, New Zealand has been outstanding, and 107 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: also things like research into Takatabe identity, the sort of 108 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 3: mildy understandings of gender and sexuality and sex diversity, all 109 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: of these things really are recognized internationally as something that 110 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: New Zealand does that is special and extraordinary and worthwhile. 111 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 3: So it would be a real step back for us 112 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 3: if we tried to follow in the footsteps of either 113 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 3: the US or the UK and the directions that they're 114 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 3: currently going. The way that we embrace diversity and work 115 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 3: critically with these concepts of gender, gender identity, and the 116 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 3: sexed body as well, that's quite remarkable and recognized. As 117 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: an academic I regularly get contacted by researchers and research 118 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: students from overseas who want to come here because they 119 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 3: see this as a place where they can do research 120 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 3: that's in the context of embracing diversity, in the context 121 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: of rainbow community and understandings of gender and sex as 122 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: going well beyond the binary. So if we narrowed down 123 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 3: our thinking, that would be a great loss and it 124 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: would be a big change in our tada New Zealand. 125 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: I saw in the US a UGOV poll of about 126 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: one thousand adults in twenty twenty three found that respondents 127 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: estimated that about twenty one percent of the American population 128 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: is trans, when in fact it's about zero point six percent. 129 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: So do you think that this overestimation, I guess, is 130 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: fueling some of this backlash. 131 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: Well, it might be, but I think there are some 132 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: more easily documented examples of what's fueling the backlash. If 133 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: we think of it from the point of view of disinformation. 134 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 3: There's been a documented rise and hate speech, a documented 135 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 3: rise in the spreading of disinformation and disinformation about a 136 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: range of topics, including to do with trans and non 137 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: binary people and identities. And I think this trend is 138 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 3: something that we need to watch out for. And yes, 139 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: maybe that feeds into the kind of poll data that 140 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 3: you're citing, that people are exposed to hate speech and disinformation, 141 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: and they maybe then draw a conclusion that there is 142 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: some big threat out there that simply doesn't exist. 143 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 2: I think we should talk about the differences between biological 144 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: sex and gender. To the uninformed person, they might see 145 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: it kind of as the same thing, but they aren't really, 146 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: are they. 147 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: No, not at all. No. I think in terms of 148 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 3: gender theory and gender research, it's been since about the 149 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: nineteen seventies that there's been a very clear division between 150 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 3: concepts of gender and sex. So it's often explained that 151 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: gender relates to identity. How we identify how we express ourselves. 152 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: Gender roles might be a familiar concept, while sex relates 153 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: to the sex body, sex anatomy, sex characteristics, and so 154 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,599 Speaker 3: if we think of gender as social and sex as biological, 155 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: that could be one way of understanding the difference. But 156 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: I would also like to say that since about the 157 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 3: nineties anyway, it's been more under did that gender and 158 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: sex have a socially constructed aspect to them. So, as 159 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 3: a society, we might construct gender as being binary, as 160 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 3: just being woman and man, and we might construct sex 161 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: as being binary as just being male bodies and female bodies. 162 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 3: But research recognizes very clearly now the way that that's 163 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: simply not the case. There isn't a clear binary except 164 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 3: in the social construction. What is observed, For example, in 165 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 3: sex bodies, we see a whole spectrum of possibilities of sexes, 166 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: not just two, not just male and female. We see 167 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: all kinds of variations in sex characteristics, and these are 168 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 3: being talked about much more widely now. If you engage 169 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: with intersex literature or activism, there's lots of talk online 170 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: about variations in sex characteristics or intersex identity, and similarly 171 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: in terms of gender diversity. There's of course lots of 172 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: talk about trans and non binary gender identities, so I 173 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: think these might help to tease out a little bit 174 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: those differences between gender identity versus sex characteristics, the physical 175 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 3: anatomical features. 176 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: And I understand you've done a lot of research around 177 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: into sex people. To those who don't know, what does 178 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: intersex mean? 179 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 3: Sure, so, intersex refers to variations in sex characteristics. It 180 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: refers to the way that the body naturally develops as 181 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 3: having sex characteristics that aren't necessarily male or female, that 182 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 3: might involve some kind of combination of chromosomes, genes, hormones, anatomy, 183 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 3: sexual and reproductive anatomy. That isn't simply what we might 184 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: have been taught in a biology class. For instance, we 185 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: might have been taught that women have xx chromosomes and 186 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 3: men have x y chromosomes. Well, it's simply not true 187 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 3: that the whole population either has xx or x y chromosomes. 188 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 3: There are a range of alternatives. There are a range 189 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 3: of different chromosome or configurations, and those that fall outside 190 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 3: of the norm would be called into sex. Some people 191 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 3: would not use the word intersex for this. Some people 192 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: would say they have a variation in sex characteristics, so 193 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: there's different terms going on at present. 194 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: So where do trans men sit in all of this? 195 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: You don't ever hear much about people wanting to define 196 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: a man in law or worried about trans men in bathrooms. 197 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: Are they kind of a silent victim in all of this? 198 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 3: That's a very interesting question because I think many trans 199 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: men pass much more easily than trans women. It is 200 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 3: quite usual for a person who takes testosterone to grow 201 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 3: a beard to develop features that are easily read as male, 202 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: and so I think trans men pass quite easily in 203 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 3: our society and are often not noticed. And so for 204 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: people who are listed in defining women legally as a 205 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 3: binary category and in an exclusionary way, what I would 206 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: say is that we need to imagine if what one 207 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: wants is to define a space as woman only, maybe 208 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: a toilet for instance, and say, well, I only feel 209 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 3: safe going into the space if I know that there 210 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: are only biological women in this space. Then we have 211 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 3: to imagine that if we define sex gender biologically in 212 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 3: this way, then we will end up with trans men 213 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: going into women's toilets, And that to me seems like 214 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 3: quite counterproductive, like not really what is desired. So yeah, 215 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: I think trans men are certainly often not visible, but 216 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 3: are very active in the space of trans advocacy and 217 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 3: speaking out about trans rites. And trans men would certainly 218 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 3: be in a very peculiar position if there was some 219 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 3: kind of legislation that excluded them from male spaces and 220 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 3: forced them back into female spaces. 221 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: They would not be challenging their lifestyle until they want 222 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: to walk into a toilet they don't belong and because 223 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: they are male, or they want to well go onto 224 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: the rugby paddock or some sporting situation or with the 225 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: boxing gym. 226 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 5: And how would they have to prove that That's what 227 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 5: I'm saying, This would be intrusive, wouldn't You would have 228 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 5: to have a chromosome test or something. 229 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: Well, that's the way that the medical society has been 230 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: working ever since has been a study of biology and 231 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: got to the advanced that it is. We've are known 232 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: that they've got different chromosomes. Excepting that a whole lot 233 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: of people are saying, forget all the science, forget what 234 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: we all know. Let's have our narrow work view and 235 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: force that down. 236 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 5: So you would actually test them a biological test on them? 237 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 5: I mean, because that's where you would end up with this, 238 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 5: wouldn't you. 239 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: Well, if you're going to make claim that you're something 240 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: that you're not, yes, you will be subjected to a 241 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: biological test. And why not? 242 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: What would the flow on effects be in your mind 243 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 2: if a biological definition of man and woman were actually 244 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: enshrined in law. 245 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: Well, for one thing, I think it would be very 246 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 3: hard to do that in Altaro, New Zealand. How would 247 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: that be policed? Would it mean doing chromosome tests on 248 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 3: every child that's born, And then what would you do 249 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 3: when those tests showed that the child didn't fit into 250 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: these categories? Would it mean policing everyone as they walk 251 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: into a bathroom. It seems to me that putting this 252 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 3: kind of thing into law is quite counterproductive. But just 253 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 3: looking from a research point of view, what we know 254 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: is that trans and non binary people face a terrific 255 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 3: amount of hate speech, discrimination and abuse as it is, 256 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: and that is exacerbated when there are exclusionary circumstances. So 257 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: this law would set up an exclusionary situation. We know 258 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: already that children and young people who question their gender 259 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: identity have a harder time in school, are more likely 260 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: to face persistent bullying, are more likely to drop out 261 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 3: of education altogether. And we also know that people who 262 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: question their gender identity or who come out as trans 263 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 3: or non binary are more likely to engage in self 264 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 3: harming and also suicidal behavior. And so these are the 265 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 3: effects of a society where gender diversity is not accepted 266 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 3: and not welcomed. So if we had a law that 267 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 3: emphasized that and institutionalized that refusal to acknowledge diversity, then 268 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 3: I think we would see even worse outcomes. Just thinking 269 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 3: about health and education as examples, I think such a 270 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 3: law would be very damaging, and it might be damaging 271 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 3: for people beyond what is imagined as well. There are 272 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 3: many people people who don't identify as trans or non binary, 273 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: but who are regularly misrecognized in terms of gender, who 274 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 3: are regularly subject to some kind of gender policing, and 275 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 3: this law just would make that sort of policing seem 276 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 3: justified rather than promoting understanding, And I think what I'd 277 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 3: like to emphasize is the importance of building understanding and 278 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: building community rather than building barriers and building a basis 279 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 3: for animosity, which is I think what this kind of 280 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: law would do. 281 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: And Katrina, do you think there is a world in 282 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 2: which both signs of this debate will ever be able 283 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: to coexist happily. Or is there just too much tension 284 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: around this to reach a resolution. 285 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 3: I think we can coexist happily. But maybe I'm just 286 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 3: an optimist. I think that there is a lot of 287 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 3: room for a dialogue, There is a lot of will 288 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 3: to come to some shared under standings, and I do 289 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 3: think that is possible. That might be because I'm in 290 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 3: the university context where I teach gender and sexuality studies, 291 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: and so I'm used to having these kinds of discussions 292 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: in the classroom. I'm used to seeing people at diverse 293 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: ends of an opinion spectrum come together and find some 294 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 3: common ground. So I am optimistic about this. But I 295 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 3: think in order to come to some shared understandings what 296 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 3: we all need to be willing to question our sources. 297 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 3: We all need to be willing to ask Am I 298 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 3: just going along with some sort of misinformation or disinformation? 299 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: What are my sources? Can I actually see evidence of 300 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 3: the things that I'm concerned about? Do I actually know this? 301 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: Or am I actually being drawn in by some sort 302 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 3: of fear mongering or hate speech that I might have 303 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 3: been exposed to to questioning our sources and our assumptions. 304 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: And I think it's also important that we are all 305 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 3: humble in what we think we know, so to hold 306 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: our understandings with humility, and especially when we think we 307 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: know things about other people, people whose lives might be 308 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 3: quite different from our own, I think it's worth being 309 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 3: humble about what we think we know, and that way 310 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: we might take a step towards being able to build 311 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 3: understanding rather than building animosity. Thanks for joining us, Katrina, 312 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 3: You're most welcome. Thank you for having me. 313 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 314 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 315 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 316 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 317 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 318 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 319 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.