1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Hey, good afternoon. So n CEA is scrapped. Instead, we're

2
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,520
Speaker 1: going back to marks out of ten grades from ade

3
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,479
Speaker 1: and students being required to take five subjects and pass

4
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,080
Speaker 1: four of them if they want to get the achievement.

5
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,000
Speaker 1: Erica Stanford is the Education ministand in studio with us. Erica, Hello, Hey,

6
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 1: great to be here. Okay, tell me what's brought this

7
00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 1: on for you?

8
00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 2: I always knew as a parent, inherently there was something

9
00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,320
Speaker 2: not quite right about nca and then that data was

10
00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 2: born out as the minister, I could see that too

11
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,360
Speaker 2: many young people were scraping together random credits, not getting

12
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 2: deep subject learning. We just weren't setting our kids up

13
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,920
Speaker 2: for success, and we need to be. We've got to

14
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,559
Speaker 2: be aspirational for them. So we always knew that this

15
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,879
Speaker 2: would we would need to do something relatively dressed up.

16
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 1: So what is it that is wrong with the NCAA

17
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:41,680
Speaker 1: that led us to that point.

18
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,520
Speaker 2: There's a couple of things. One, there is no national

19
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,280
Speaker 2: curriculum that we teach to. We teach to what's in

20
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,600
Speaker 2: the standards, So essentially the qualification drives what's taught. That's

21
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 2: totally backwards. Nobody else does that. And then we don't

22
00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,600
Speaker 2: require a certain amount of learning in each subject are So.

23
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: Basically what you're saying is, if you do maths, you

24
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,040
Speaker 1: don't need to actually know all of these things. We

25
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:04,479
Speaker 1: don't need.

26
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 2: You could pick one or two bits of the maths

27
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,080
Speaker 2: and one or two bits of the English, and one

28
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,600
Speaker 2: bit of geography and a unit standard filling in a form,

29
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,959
Speaker 2: put it all together, and that's your qualification. There's no

30
00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 2: deep learning in one subject area.

31
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 1: Which means it's not consistent across the country, and we

32
00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,680
Speaker 1: can't be sure you've learned everything you need to learn

33
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,399
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. So which five subjects are these kids

34
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:23,960
Speaker 1: going to pick from or pick.

35
00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 2: We're working on the subjects at the moment, so that's

36
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 2: a separate path of work that we're doing. So we're

37
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 2: going through the subject areas where we're rewriting them all

38
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 2: the way up to year thirteen and just taking a

39
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,119
Speaker 2: look at which ones that may be we don't need

40
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 2: anymore because not enough students are doing them, ones that

41
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 2: we can combine. But we're taking a look at that.

42
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 2: We're talking to the different sectors.

43
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 1: So you remember, back in the old days pre NCA,

44
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,080
Speaker 1: you had to take you sort of had like your

45
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 1: class A subjects, you had to take some of those

46
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 1: and then you could buffer them up with some kind

47
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 1: of other ones that were less important. Are we still

48
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: going to do the same.

49
00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,840
Speaker 2: Kind of thing we are saying in year eleven, in

50
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 2: your foundational year you do that certificate, you will need

51
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 2: to take English and maths. Most schools do that already,

52
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,639
Speaker 2: but not all, So we are saying, actually all schools

53
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 2: need to do that. Those are key foundational areas of learning,

54
00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:10,959
Speaker 2: and then when you go into year twelve there'll be

55
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,760
Speaker 2: your normal range of subjects that you can choose from. Again,

56
00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:15,799
Speaker 2: that's a workstream we're doing at the moment. It's very

57
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,919
Speaker 2: separate to the actual curriculum and how we assess. How

58
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,040
Speaker 2: we assess, and the curriculum is being set, and we'll

59
00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,600
Speaker 2: have subject areas that will come and go over time,

60
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 2: but the one thing that will remain constant is how

61
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 2: we assess.

62
00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,919
Speaker 1: Ok, and how prescriptive are you going to be about

63
00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:29,800
Speaker 1: what the kids are learning.

64
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 2: We will have a curriculum that goes all the way

65
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,240
Speaker 2: up to year twelve, year thirteen, sorry, and it will

66
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 2: lay out what must be taught each year, but within

67
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,920
Speaker 2: that there is flexibility, so for an English for example.

68
00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 2: We're not saying you must teach this book and this

69
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,720
Speaker 2: text and this solid and this. We're saying, you know, look,

70
00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 2: you have to teach a Shakespeare a teacher could choose

71
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 2: us on it a play. You have to teach a

72
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,400
Speaker 2: nineteenth century text. You have to teach English a New

73
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 2: Zealand writer. They'll be able to pack and choose the

74
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,160
Speaker 2: texts that they use, but the actual knowledge and skill

75
00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,360
Speaker 2: they build up will be prescribed in the curriculum. So

76
00:02:59,360 --> 00:02:59,960
Speaker 2: it's consistent.

77
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:01,800
Speaker 1: You want to get this out by twenty twenty seven.

78
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,440
Speaker 2: We will have the draft curriculum out by the by

79
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,080
Speaker 2: term four for up to year ten, and then early

80
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,120
Speaker 2: next year it will be the full curriculum all the

81
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,960
Speaker 2: way up to year thirteen. But we're carefully phasing this in.

82
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:15,840
Speaker 1: I mean, that's fast, isn't it.

83
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 2: We have been working at pace. Yeah, we've been looking

84
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 2: at the best curriculum from overseas. We've been writing with

85
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 2: local experts here as well and creating what I know

86
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 2: will be a world leading curriculum. And that's what we're

87
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:28,359
Speaker 2: aiming for.

88
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: How's the teacher load? Have you heard back from them?

89
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,560
Speaker 1: This is all too much.

90
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 2: Look, having a world leading curriculum and excellent qualifications and

91
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 2: teaching to those is a core part of the business

92
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,160
Speaker 2: of the education sector. But I know very well that

93
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 2: they are. There is a very heavy workload, so there

94
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 2: are a number of things we're doing to try and

95
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 2: lighten that. I've already said to NZQA want everything externally

96
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,880
Speaker 2: marked by twenty twenty eight. I didn't say that this morning,

97
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 2: but in saying it, reactively today to take that workload

98
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,840
Speaker 2: off so all the internals teachers won't have to mark,

99
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 2: so no more self Well, that's where we're trying to

100
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,520
Speaker 2: get to. There'll be somewhere it's hard to get away from,

101
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,600
Speaker 2: like a performance, music performance or a science experiment.

102
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,520
Speaker 1: Well, that's going to ease the workload considerably because I

103
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 1: would imagine that puts a huge amount of pressure on them.

104
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely will, and that'll be a game changer for them.

105
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 2: But also we are staging this over time, rolling it

106
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,239
Speaker 2: out very carefully because I want parents to feel confident

107
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,680
Speaker 2: that who are you. I've got Year eight students who

108
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 2: will be the first cohort through that. We are very

109
00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,839
Speaker 2: carefully thinking about how we roll this out, how we

110
00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,600
Speaker 2: give teachers plenty of time to learn the new curriculum

111
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,760
Speaker 2: and new qualification system, which is why it doesn't come

112
00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,159
Speaker 2: until twenty twenty eight. It sounds like a long way away.

113
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:33,960
Speaker 1: Yep, it was really not.

114
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,880
Speaker 2: But it's really not. Really it gives us time to

115
00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,279
Speaker 2: do that implementation.

116
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,000
Speaker 1: What do you say, I mean, I had a parent

117
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,080
Speaker 1: text through before and say, Erica, what do you say

118
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,480
Speaker 1: to kids who are doing NCEEA right now and are

119
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,520
Speaker 1: going to think, jeez, this is an utterly worthless thing.

120
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,240
Speaker 2: Well, I've said quite a lot today. It's certainly not worthless.

121
00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 2: And students who are going through NCEA should feel very

122
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,160
Speaker 2: proud of their achievements. My daughter is just finishing it.

123
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:56,840
Speaker 2: My son is going to be doing it. He's the

124
00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,720
Speaker 2: last cohort. He's in year nine this year, so he

125
00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,600
Speaker 2: will be one of those students and he should feel

126
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,279
Speaker 2: very proud of what he achieved. So hopefully if he

127
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 2: gets it, sure he will easy, He'll be fine. But look,

128
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 2: it is still a good qualification. Many students still go

129
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 2: into top universities around the world, but we need it

130
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,479
Speaker 2: needs to be better, and it needs to be more consistent,

131
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 2: and we can aim to be more ambitious for our kids,

132
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 2: and that's what we're trying to do.

133
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:22,640
Speaker 1: Did you did you at any point think why don't

134
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,159
Speaker 1: we just go with Cambridge or or IB.

135
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 2: Well, we want something that's New Zealand that we can

136
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,720
Speaker 2: stand behind. And by the way we are looking.

137
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 1: Why do we That's like what I mean, that's silly

138
00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 1: right to do our own thing because.

139
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 2: We can be we can be the best. Because if

140
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 2: you go to Cambridge, there are things that aren't perfect

141
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,200
Speaker 2: about that, but I be there is my kids could

142
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,000
Speaker 2: choose to do IB. They're not a number of reasons.

143
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,520
Speaker 2: We want to take what's the best bits of everything

144
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,599
Speaker 2: from around the world. And believe me, we are looking

145
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,600
Speaker 2: all around the world at what works and what is

146
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 2: best and what is doing well and bringing it here

147
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,520
Speaker 2: and creating what will be the best curriculum I believe

148
00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:58,920
Speaker 2: in the world. And if you look at our primary

149
00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,800
Speaker 2: English and Mass curriculum already people are saying that it

150
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,000
Speaker 2: is world leading. I'm very proud of that and that's

151
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 2: what we want all the way out.

152
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:06,040
Speaker 1: Eric, I haven't got a lot of time, but you

153
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,040
Speaker 1: listened to the show, so you'll know that I've been

154
00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,040
Speaker 1: calling you the MVP for the longest time. Right, I'm

155
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,440
Speaker 1: not blowing smoke, and I mean it. But why is

156
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,080
Speaker 1: it that you are able to get this much done

157
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:16,960
Speaker 1: in eighteen months and other guys in their portfolios are

158
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,479
Speaker 1: baughing around.

159
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,000
Speaker 2: Well, I think everyone's working really hard. I mean, look

160
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,960
Speaker 2: at the word you're shaving so much Brown and Nikola Willis.

161
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 2: The secrets to all of our success is that we

162
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,599
Speaker 2: spend time in opposition thinking about this. I had my

163
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,599
Speaker 2: six point plan ready to go. We hit the ground running.

164
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,840
Speaker 2: We'd had a property thing that fell in there. It's

165
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,880
Speaker 2: my seventh part of my plan. I wasn't expecting, but

166
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:37,920
Speaker 2: I knew exactly what we needed to do. I did

167
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,240
Speaker 2: all the research in our position around structured literacy, structure,

168
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,360
Speaker 2: mass explicit teaching, the reading wars, and what was wrong

169
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,520
Speaker 2: with our qualification. I knew exactly what we needed to do.

170
00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 2: We've been moving with clarity and pace for the last

171
00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,320
Speaker 2: eighteen months and there is more to come. Next year,

172
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,719
Speaker 2: we'll be doing twice yearly assessments so parents will know

173
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 2: how their children are going.

174
00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,040
Speaker 1: Erica, thank you for coming in. I really appreciate your time.

175
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,200
Speaker 1: That's Erica stand for the Education Minister. For more from

176
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,360
Speaker 1: Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news Talks a

177
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 1: b from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on

178
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:07,600
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio