WEBVTT - Recognising the state of Palestine: What does it actually mean?

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<v Speaker 1>Kyota.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's

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<v Speaker 2>decision on whether it'll recognize the State of Palestine has

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<v Speaker 2>been put on hold until next month. It's despite our

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<v Speaker 2>closest neighbor, Australia, following a sweep of countries moving to

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<v Speaker 2>support Palestine. Seventy eight years since the United Nations resolution

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<v Speaker 2>to create the State of Israel and a Palestinian state,

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<v Speaker 2>Australia's PM Anthony Albanesi said the world can no longer

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<v Speaker 2>wait for the implementation of that resolution to be negotiated

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<v Speaker 2>between the two parties. So how should New Zealand proceed

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<v Speaker 2>and if it's a matter of when not if, as

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<v Speaker 2>David Seymour has said, then why are we so behind

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<v Speaker 2>the April Today on the Front Page, University of Otago

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<v Speaker 2>Senior politics professor doctor Leon Goldsmith is with us to

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<v Speaker 2>unpack the complexities of this never ending conflict. Leon Winston

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<v Speaker 2>Peters has said it's not a straightforward, clear cut issue

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<v Speaker 2>and the government is still weighing up New Zealand's position.

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<v Speaker 2>Is he right to wait it out?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean I think he's right when he says that

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<v Speaker 3>it's not a clear cut, straightforward issue, I think I

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<v Speaker 3>totally agree with that, and we should also, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>we should be mindful that we don't rush into sort

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<v Speaker 3>of knee jerk reactions depending on the actions of our neighbors, allies,

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<v Speaker 3>or the international community. I also agree that we have

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<v Speaker 3>an independent foreign policy and we need to make our

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<v Speaker 3>own decisions.

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<v Speaker 1>So in that.

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<v Speaker 3>Respect, I think it's correct. However, the situation is urgent

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<v Speaker 3>and imperative, and if it is going to make any

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<v Speaker 3>different to the humanitarian situation in Gaza, I think that

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<v Speaker 3>the government needs to weigh up very carefully. Withether adding

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<v Speaker 3>its voice in a sort of concert with others will

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<v Speaker 3>help that, but I don't know if it's one hundred

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<v Speaker 3>percent sure if it will. I think it's in terms

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<v Speaker 3>of the way that the messages are being transmitted is

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<v Speaker 3>really important at this moment, and there's a lot of insecurity,

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<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of misinformation, and I think we do, actually,

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<v Speaker 3>regardless of the situation, have to be very measured in

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<v Speaker 3>the way that we react to the situation.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of so we're looking at recognizing the state

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<v Speaker 2>of Palestine, what other options are.

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<v Speaker 3>There well, I think, I mean that the imperative right

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<v Speaker 3>now is to try to get a sustainable ceasefire and

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<v Speaker 3>to try to alleviate the suffering of God and civilians,

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<v Speaker 3>to get the hostages released, to find some way to

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<v Speaker 3>de escalate the conflict between Hamas and the IDEF in

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<v Speaker 3>the Gaza envelope. So I mean, the question of a

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<v Speaker 3>two state solution is a very complicated one. It's something

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<v Speaker 3>that hasn't been resolved in the seventy eight years until now.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not something that can be achieved through a sort

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<v Speaker 3>of a diplomatic stroke, And I think it's for the

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<v Speaker 3>Israelis and the Palestinians once they can find some kind

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<v Speaker 3>of stable platform to start to develop confidence measuring, confidence

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<v Speaker 3>building measures which have happened in the past. But unfortunately

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<v Speaker 3>we've got extremists on both sides who are not really

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<v Speaker 3>interested in working towards that kind of situation. So I

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<v Speaker 3>think New Zealand should be continuing to call for a ceasefire,

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<v Speaker 3>continuing to call for some kind of hostage release in

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<v Speaker 3>disarmament where possible, But of course it's not easy.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not easy.

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<v Speaker 2>What's the difference between recognizing the state of Palestine and

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<v Speaker 2>supporting the two state solution in Palestinian self determination, which

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<v Speaker 2>I think is our current standing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean we've supported officially a two state solution

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<v Speaker 3>ever since the Resolution one A one in nineteen forty seven. So,

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<v Speaker 3>but recognizing the state of Polace oly So on twenty twelve,

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<v Speaker 3>the General Assembly recognizing Palestinian as a non observer state

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<v Speaker 3>to the Yun it's symbolic, it's a kind of a

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<v Speaker 3>diplomatic move and as far as symbolic in terms of

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<v Speaker 3>presenting these stants on different countries towards the rights of

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<v Speaker 3>Palestine and also Israel. We said that we recognize that

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<v Speaker 3>there could be some kind of state for the Palestinians,

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<v Speaker 3>but we don't know what that state would look like

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<v Speaker 3>in terms of its final shape. This has been the

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<v Speaker 3>key sticking point ever since in nineteen forty nine. What

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<v Speaker 3>is the final borders? Where will they be? What is

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<v Speaker 3>the right of return not just for Palestinians who were

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<v Speaker 3>pushed out of their homes, but also for Jewish people

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<v Speaker 3>who are pushed out of Arab countries during that conflict

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<v Speaker 3>period as well. So what is there compensation? Is there

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<v Speaker 3>some way that some can come back?

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<v Speaker 1>Is there?

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<v Speaker 3>And the third thing which is really crucial is what

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<v Speaker 3>is the status of Jerusalem? Is it the capital for

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<v Speaker 3>two states? Is that can the Palestinians accept an alternative capital,

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<v Speaker 3>which they say they won't, And that's really the key

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<v Speaker 3>issues at the crux of an actual two state solution.

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<v Speaker 1>And also it's become this kind of.

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<v Speaker 3>The inability of the international community, starting with Obama and

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<v Speaker 3>previous to actually get the Israelis to freeze the settlements

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<v Speaker 3>has meant that there is no contigious territory for the

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<v Speaker 3>Palestinians to create a state on anyway. Like the conditions

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<v Speaker 3>on the ground, which is I observed firsthand when I

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<v Speaker 3>was there in twenty twenty three are not conducive to

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<v Speaker 3>a state. The political criteria that Foreign Minister, our foreign

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<v Speaker 3>minister spoke about it not there as well. There is

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<v Speaker 3>no unity on either the Israeli or the Palestinians. I

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<v Speaker 3>both are deeply divided politically, with different visions about what

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<v Speaker 3>each wants, and I think that has to also be

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<v Speaker 3>taken into account.

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<v Speaker 4>Australia will recognize the state of Palestine. Australia will recognize

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<v Speaker 4>the ride up the Palestinian people to a state of

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<v Speaker 4>their own predicated on commitments Australia has received from the

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<v Speaker 4>Palestinian authority. We will work with the international community to

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<v Speaker 4>make this right a reality. Australia is making this statement

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<v Speaker 4>today following our cabinet meeting as part of a coordinated

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<v Speaker 4>global effort building momentum for a two state solution.

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<v Speaker 2>I know that when announcing Australia's recognition of the Palestinian State,

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<v Speaker 2>Anthony Albernezi said he will officially recognize it at the

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<v Speaker 2>United Nations Leaders Week late next month, and Winston Peters

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<v Speaker 2>has said his waiting until then as well to announce

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<v Speaker 2>our stance. What's the significance of waiting until that week.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I guess it's kind of like it gives him

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<v Speaker 3>more time. It's kind of like stalling for time because

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think that our government really does have as

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<v Speaker 3>he's kind of eluded in their press statement that they

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<v Speaker 3>don't have a a consensus around this even.

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<v Speaker 1>Within the government itself.

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<v Speaker 3>But the fact that they're talking about potentially acknowledging the

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<v Speaker 3>Palestinian state that meeting is also could have an impact

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<v Speaker 3>in terms of the international kind of pattern or the

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<v Speaker 3>trajectory that the pressure that they're intending to put on

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<v Speaker 3>Nefhan Yahoo to actually respond and to make some concessions

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<v Speaker 3>and sort of like some of the you know what's

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<v Speaker 3>happening right now in Gaza in terms of Gaza City

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<v Speaker 3>and the humanitarian crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>Middle Eastern conflicts are complicated, to say the least. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not all black and white as some people want it

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<v Speaker 2>to be. It's certainly not explainable through a twenty minute podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not explainable probably through a two hour lecture, etc.

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<v Speaker 1>You've written before.

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<v Speaker 2>The solution to untangle and diffuse the conflict is not

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<v Speaker 2>to grab one thread and target hard, but to find

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<v Speaker 2>all the threads that prepare to wait the crisis. I

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<v Speaker 2>thought that was a really good way of putting it.

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<v Speaker 2>Explain that to me a little bit more sure.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, exactly like you said, it's not a black

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<v Speaker 3>and white. These are the good guys and the bad guys.

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<v Speaker 3>These are the ones who are right, These are the

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<v Speaker 3>ones who have the rights and those ones that don't.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of the sort of zero sum ratract that

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<v Speaker 3>we've had is actually, I believe, has been making the

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<v Speaker 3>situation wise because it's increasing a sense of international rejection

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<v Speaker 3>or a sense of the very genuine perceptions of racism

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<v Speaker 3>or anti Semitism or xenophobic against Muslims or whatever. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 3>we don't have this perfect rules based order that can

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<v Speaker 3>basically come in and impose a solution. With the rules

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<v Speaker 3>based kind of objective solution, you have to find out

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<v Speaker 3>what is the political interest of all of the different

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<v Speaker 3>parties within this Gordian not and try to find some

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<v Speaker 3>way that they can find an interest based compromise. So,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, on the Palestinian side, you have Fattah Plo,

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<v Speaker 3>Palaestinian Authority and Hamas who have very different ideas about

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<v Speaker 3>what a future solution looks like. One is resistance based,

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<v Speaker 3>armed resistance based. The other one is negotiations trying to

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<v Speaker 3>continue with the Oslo process. It's such like political negotiated

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<v Speaker 3>confidence building. And also within the Israeli body politic you

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<v Speaker 3>have people who have no desire to compromise with the

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<v Speaker 3>Palestinians and they want to basically use any excuse like

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<v Speaker 3>October seven provided a good excuse to be able to

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<v Speaker 3>try to expand ethnically, clans, resettle, all of these things.

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<v Speaker 3>But they're vast but that's actually probably a minority on

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<v Speaker 3>both sides. So for example, this Sunday. I think that

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<v Speaker 3>they're calling for massive strikes protests, hundreds of thousands up

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<v Speaker 3>to a million protesting on Sunday against the war on

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<v Speaker 3>the Israeli side. Whatever New Zealand says is a country

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<v Speaker 3>should be actually trying to reach out to those groups

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<v Speaker 3>to work with them, not make a statement which is

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<v Speaker 3>kind of like can be interpreted as kind of fully

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<v Speaker 3>pro Palestinian and not really taken into account Israeli interests

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<v Speaker 3>as well. So the differences between the Orthodox Jews who

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<v Speaker 3>won't serve in the army and are seen as a

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<v Speaker 3>kind of a burden on Israeli society, there's actually quite

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<v Speaker 3>a strong division between them and sort of secular Israeli

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<v Speaker 3>Jews as well, the Israeli Arabs. What is their interest?

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<v Speaker 3>And it's getting more and more complicated as we go

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<v Speaker 3>in because a lot of them, if, for example, a

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<v Speaker 3>unilateral Palestinian state was declared, what is their position in that?

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<v Speaker 3>Do they want to surrender their Israeli citizenship? Will they

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<v Speaker 3>be like forced pushed into a Palestinian state which has

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<v Speaker 3>no and lose their jobs and their security and their

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<v Speaker 3>status which a lot of them don't want to in

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<v Speaker 3>a state which is going to be underresourced and almost

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<v Speaker 3>under enormous pressure from external forces immediately. So that's what

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<v Speaker 3>I'm saying, And it's not you say I can't explain

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<v Speaker 3>everything in a twenty minute podcast, but being aware and

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<v Speaker 3>being very careful to avoid blanket generalizations which actually can

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<v Speaker 3>potentially make the situation worse rather than improve it.

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<v Speaker 2>We do see protesters here demanding that our government do more,

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<v Speaker 2>do this, do that. And this is something else that

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<v Speaker 2>you've written about as well, that protest is by only

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<v Speaker 2>speaking to one side of the crisis, are unintentionally playing

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<v Speaker 2>into their part in polarizing the region. Is that because

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<v Speaker 2>it's it is that want to innate human need to

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<v Speaker 2>be like, well, these are the good guys, these are

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<v Speaker 2>the baddies. It should be simple, but it's actually really not.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's unfortunately correct, And what you raised there

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<v Speaker 3>is really important because for like an Israeli or even

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<v Speaker 3>a Jewish person around the world, it's hard to know

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<v Speaker 3>how they feel when they look at these protests.

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<v Speaker 1>Are they saying from the river to the sea? Is that?

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<v Speaker 3>What does it mean exactly? Because previously when yesa Arafat

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<v Speaker 3>said it, he meant it was reconquest completely what does

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<v Speaker 3>the Palestinian flag mean when you look at it, it

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<v Speaker 3>means it actually comes from Arab nationalism, which is an

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<v Speaker 3>ethno nationalist ideology, which is this is all Arab land.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's kind of like a competing ethno nationalist ideology

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<v Speaker 3>with Jewish nationalism, which is also toxic. And the sense

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<v Speaker 3>is that this land was never Jewish or fully only

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<v Speaker 3>Jewish or only Arab. But if political actors in Israel

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<v Speaker 3>like Nathania, who who's very skillfully trying to manipulate the narrative,

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<v Speaker 3>can use some of these protests which seem I know

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<v Speaker 3>they're not, but they see one sided as a kind

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<v Speaker 3>of political fodder to be able to show that people

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<v Speaker 3>who are on the fans, look, we're actually very insecure internationally,

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<v Speaker 3>we have to stick together, we have to be instead

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<v Speaker 3>of feeding into that siege mentality. They use that, and

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<v Speaker 3>especially the ones on the hard right are using this

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<v Speaker 3>as evidence that we have to actually be tough Bizill

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<v Speaker 3>or Smitritch and it might Ben Gevere who are genuine

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<v Speaker 3>extremist fundamentalists, and so they're looking to use any kind

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<v Speaker 3>of imagery and narrative and international kind of this course

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<v Speaker 3>that they can filill towards their propaganda purposes. So we

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<v Speaker 3>should take the wind out of their sales and say

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<v Speaker 3>very clearly, we're not against Israel, We're not against Palestine,

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<v Speaker 3>We're for both. And now it sounds crazy. It's hard

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<v Speaker 3>for people to actually try to get their heads around

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<v Speaker 3>that because we have internalized, you know, this sort of

0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.560
<v Speaker 3>colonial occupation narrative where there are elements of that. But

0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.280
<v Speaker 3>we also have to remember that sixty percent of Israeli

0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.040
<v Speaker 3>citizens are from the Middle East, whether they are Misiaki,

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:41.000
<v Speaker 3>Jews or Arab citizens of Israel. So it's yeah, just

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:46.120
<v Speaker 3>being a little bit more careful and not beating the

0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.720
<v Speaker 3>fire trying to help to douse it somehow as what

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:51.680
<v Speaker 3>we need to be trying to do.

0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.520
<v Speaker 5>I'm just acknowledging that this is an issue that has

0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:57.280
<v Speaker 5>been young.

0:15:57.960 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 1>We've had a long.

0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.520
<v Speaker 5>Standing position since partition in nineteen forty seven to recognize

0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 5>both Palestine and Israel. And clearly, you know, our focus

0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 5>has been you know, as we've said, when, not if,

0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 5>And as a result for us, we've got to work

0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.600
<v Speaker 5>through this rather serious issue.

0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:13.560
<v Speaker 1>We've got to do it properly.

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.720
<v Speaker 5>As a complex issue, there are strong feelings on all

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.560
<v Speaker 5>sides of this debate in the public, as you've seen,

0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.160
<v Speaker 5>and it's important that we make the right sitsum.

0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.400
<v Speaker 2>In terms of so the government, our government is not

0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:33.120
<v Speaker 2>disclosing what the conditions or criteria for us joining the

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.960
<v Speaker 2>recognition of the state of Palestine. They're not disclosing that yet.

0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:38.600
<v Speaker 1>What do you think.

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, one of them is obviously her Maas releasing hostages.

0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:44.720
<v Speaker 2>What could be some others?

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think that we may join with the

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:52.200
<v Speaker 3>Arab States and asking Hamas to disarm. They won't do that,

0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 3>of course, I mean, we could find ourselves like they're

0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.840
<v Speaker 3>talking about a UN force coming in to try to

0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.400
<v Speaker 3>do that. We'll end up in the same situation of

0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.760
<v Speaker 3>the idea. And now I think that the hostages, of

0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:09.760
<v Speaker 3>course are complete cease fire, but of course the current

0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.160
<v Speaker 3>government in Israel doesn't want that to happen. They don't

0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 3>want a ceasefire, and of course smart Rich and Ben

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:22.080
<v Speaker 3>Giberta continuously threatening to collapse Nethania, Who's government. Interestingly, I

0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.480
<v Speaker 3>think like if you look at the the idiosyncrasies of

0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.720
<v Speaker 3>the Israeli electoral system they are currently out of that

0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.960
<v Speaker 3>has finished the summer session, so in technical times, his

0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.959
<v Speaker 3>coalition partners can't collapse his government. So this might explain

0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.639
<v Speaker 3>why there's a pressure being applied to Nathan now who now,

0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.800
<v Speaker 3>But unfortunately he doesn't seem to be responsive to that,

0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 3>and he's doubling down looking at the long game as well.

0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.879
<v Speaker 3>I mean, of course, officially New Zealand's criterias that there

0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 3>should be political economic security criteria mat but it's very vague.

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.600
<v Speaker 3>What does that actually mean. I think that they'll probably

0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.320
<v Speaker 3>interpret that liberally depending on what does the situation come

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.440
<v Speaker 3>September for that leader's meeting.

0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:08.720
<v Speaker 1>At the UN.

0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.080
<v Speaker 2>What should New Zealand do then to make us better informed?

0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:13.919
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I.

0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:19.600
<v Speaker 2>Suppose it would be easy now, especially given Australia, Australia's

0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:24.600
<v Speaker 2>recognition to just follow the herd so to speak. How

0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.359
<v Speaker 2>should we treat the situation differently?

0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.240
<v Speaker 3>I mean, considering the nature of the current Israeli government

0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.720
<v Speaker 3>and in Hamas as the sort of de facto governing

0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.240
<v Speaker 3>body and Gaza at least, I think that we should

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.800
<v Speaker 3>be looking to put together some kind of urgent thing tanks.

0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:46.560
<v Speaker 3>I know, there's a lot of crises around the world.

0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.320
<v Speaker 3>To be able to gather data and information and intelligence.

0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:51.879
<v Speaker 3>I mean, for example, I spend a lot of my

0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.560
<v Speaker 3>time talking to people on the Palestinian side, on the

0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.920
<v Speaker 3>Israeli side, Syria, on all of that, and what I've

0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.639
<v Speaker 3>noticed there are really good people, some of them with

0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.760
<v Speaker 3>more or less levels of influence, who have good pragmatic solutions,

0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.240
<v Speaker 3>but they're not reaching.

0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:14.200
<v Speaker 1>Policymakers.

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:21.760
<v Speaker 3>So Track two non governmental outreach to potential future for example,

0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.600
<v Speaker 3>parts of the Israeli opposition and the NGOs and civil society,

0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.680
<v Speaker 3>parts of Israeli society, I mean Palestinian society who are

0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 3>increasingly furious with Hamas and what they've dragged them into,

0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.040
<v Speaker 3>instead of some I don't think we're going to get

0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.720
<v Speaker 3>a solution out of the current leadership, but some kind

0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:47.280
<v Speaker 3>of parallel discussions or trying to bring people together as

0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:53.600
<v Speaker 3>a neutral, objective arbiter rather than someone who's pursuing seemingly

0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:55.200
<v Speaker 3>an agenda on one side or the other.

0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.000
<v Speaker 2>What's been nearly eighty years since the world pushed for

0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.399
<v Speaker 2>a two states solution? Will it take another eighty to

0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.880
<v Speaker 2>make it happen? I mean, what is the end goal here?

0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.800
<v Speaker 2>When do we say enough is enough?

0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.199
<v Speaker 3>I think it's been enough for a long time. I

0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.080
<v Speaker 3>think there's genuine will to find some kind of solution.

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.360
<v Speaker 3>If you can separate the messianic element and the kind

0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 3>of authoritarians out of the picture of contain them, you'll

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 3>see that there's more desire to solve this situation in

0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.480
<v Speaker 3>Israel than there has ever been in They became a

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:40.000
<v Speaker 3>little bit infatuated with military success through forty eight, sixty seven,

0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:45.240
<v Speaker 3>seventy three, and so they believe that a military solution

0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.919
<v Speaker 3>could work long term to provide security. But I think

0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.600
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people realizing that can't. So therefore that's

0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.080
<v Speaker 3>an opportunity. And the same applies on the Palestinian side

0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.400
<v Speaker 3>that sort of like acts of terrorism or like want

0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.440
<v Speaker 3>on on violence is not going to actually lead them

0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:06.400
<v Speaker 3>to a solution that's just going to continue to spiral.

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:13.600
<v Speaker 3>So while there's so much dark, kind of gloomy outlock,

0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:19.399
<v Speaker 3>there's also some potential there. But we need to have

0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.199
<v Speaker 3>our eyes open, I think, to see it, and our

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:24.439
<v Speaker 3>he has opened as well.

0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.000
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Leon, You're most welcome. Thank you

0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:29.440
<v Speaker 1>for having me.

0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.600
<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:40.520
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.639
<v Speaker 2>at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.119
<v Speaker 2>produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also

0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.840
<v Speaker 2>our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front Page

0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 2>on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune

0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.520
<v Speaker 2>in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.

0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:01.360
<v Speaker 4>Four