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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Artificial intelligence chatbots they are replacing friends for twenty three

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Speaker 2: percent of New Zealand kids. That is according to Norton

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Speaker 2: Anti Virus and Cybersecurity. To chat further about this, we're

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Speaker 2: now joined by Papatoe Toe High School Principal Vaughn coll You, Vaughn,

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Speaker 2: very good afternoon to you. Nice to have your company.

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Speaker 3: All good.

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Speaker 4: Now, what do you see as the risks that come

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Speaker 4: with kids using AI chatbods instead of human boddies?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Interestingly, I'd just like to say that I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure the sample size that Norton used in their research

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Speaker 3: was particularly problematic, was well particularly decently? Same side, isn't

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Speaker 3: a thousand people? Yeah, it's very light, and there's more

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Speaker 3: people at my school and it's sampled, and so I

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Speaker 3: don't think my school is indicative of the entire New

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Speaker 3: Zealand population. But nonetheless, we are getting increasing numbers of

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Speaker 3: young people who are overly connected to their device, whatever

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Speaker 3: that might be. So it could be from a social

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Speaker 3: media perspective or now as the AI technologies improve or

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Speaker 3: advance I should say to someone who's actually not a

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Speaker 3: human that they're developing a relationship with. So it can

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Speaker 3: be problematic.

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Speaker 4: Schools can be brutal, of course, and you know, parents

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Speaker 4: worry about their kids, you know, dropping them off at

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Speaker 4: the gate. They have to interact with so many different people.

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Speaker 4: But so is life. Life is brutal as well. So

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Speaker 4: as part of the school experience learning how to deal

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Speaker 4: with people that maybe not well, some people are actually

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Speaker 4: out to get you all through life. And is that

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Speaker 4: part of the school experience, learning how to deal with

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Speaker 4: complex interactions and the foeables of other humans.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to rephrase that a bit. Some relationships can

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Speaker 3: be complicated with people in a large space. Schools can

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Speaker 3: also be incredibly warm and support of when when you're

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Speaker 3: in need. So sometimes some particular relationships can be problematic,

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Speaker 3: and you do have to develop a degree of resilience

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Speaker 3: as a human. When you think about how my own

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Speaker 3: family banters around the dining room table. Some of it

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Speaker 3: can be pretty harsh when you look at it from

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Speaker 3: the outside, but the reality is actually I love those

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Speaker 3: people across the table and doing anything I could to

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Speaker 3: help them and support them. And so schools have a

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Speaker 3: very similar vibe. Most of the grown ups and a

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Speaker 3: schools really like being there and want to look after

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Speaker 3: the young ones. And fostering that relationship between humans and

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Speaker 3: also giving people skills to know what to do when

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Speaker 3: things get hard are particularly important.

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Speaker 4: Well, you talk about banter, and that's you know, banter

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Speaker 4: is a way that you win people over, and you know,

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Speaker 4: like making someone laugh is important for friendship, and so

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Speaker 4: I guess my point is if you're talking to an

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Speaker 4: AI chatbot, what you're really eating is what you want

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Speaker 4: back and as opposed to having to win the chatbot over.

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Speaker 4: So while schools can be warm environments, as you say,

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Speaker 4: even in that case, you still have to be saying

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Speaker 4: something funny every couple of minutes in your circle of

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Speaker 4: friends to really move that friendship board.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And as with any sort of algorithm, it will

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Speaker 3: give you back what you're sort of seeking. So in

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Speaker 3: a short term, think of it like a band aid

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Speaker 3: or a moro bar at the supermarket. It might be

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Speaker 3: quite useful in the short term. It's that when you

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Speaker 3: become dependent on that type of interaction and unable to

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Speaker 3: engage in other interactions with real humans, that you're developing

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Speaker 3: yourself a bit of a problem. You know, there's nothing

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Speaker 3: wrong with you grabbing that Moro bar as you go

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Speaker 3: through the checkout counter because you skip lunch and you've

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Speaker 3: done it once in the last three months. But if

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Speaker 3: you're eating a chocolate bar instead of a meal every day,

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Speaker 3: suddenly you've got some nutritional issues.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you deal with that as a principal?

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Speaker 2: Warm Because I imagine you've got a lot of students

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Speaker 2: at your school utilizing this technology AI to ask various

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Speaker 2: questions they have about life that they're too afraid to

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Speaker 2: ask a teacher or the parent or even a friend,

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Speaker 2: and some of that information, as we know, comes back

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Speaker 2: and it's a lot hallucinations they call a hallucination. So

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Speaker 2: how do you deal with that as a school principle

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Speaker 2: and someone in the education sector to talk with kids

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Speaker 2: about that that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the AI flane of thing is really rapidly evolving,

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Speaker 3: as you'll know. So i'd have to say in most

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Speaker 3: cases we're all playing a bit of rapid catch up

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Speaker 3: with regard to that. But in terms of conflict, in

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Speaker 3: terms of relationships, in terms of building resilience between two people's,

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Speaker 3: schools have been doing that for a long long time.

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Speaker 3: And so you remember when you and I were back

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Speaker 3: at school. I don't know how old you guys are,

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Speaker 3: but for me, it was very Jurassic. But you know,

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Speaker 3: we had we had counsel as, we had deans, we

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Speaker 3: had support people. In a high school space, in a

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Speaker 3: primary school space, you got to know that classroom teacher

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Speaker 3: of yours really well and they got to know you

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Speaker 3: really well so they could cull when you were off

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Speaker 3: color and the importance of that huge uman interaction. But

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Speaker 3: also in the secondary space, which is where my skill

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Speaker 3: set is, there's lots of work that goes in and

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Speaker 3: year nine in your turn about what a healthy relationship

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Speaker 3: looks like. Not only will another person not with digital devices,

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Speaker 3: keeping yourself safe online, what you can do when you

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Speaker 3: don't know what to do. Lots of lots of education

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Speaker 3: happens in terms of promoting options for connection when connection

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Speaker 3: is something you are seeking.

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Speaker 4: It's an interesting one because people say, look, you can

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Speaker 4: have these AI chatbots or just AI in general coming

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Speaker 4: up with these hallucinations, which it's when they feed you

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Speaker 4: something that as if it's true, but it's just the

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Speaker 4: way they've gathered the information. In the larger language models,

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Speaker 4: so it comes not true. But the thing is that

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Speaker 4: can happen with humans. Humans are always giving you information

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Speaker 4: that's not true, that their straw is true. So you

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Speaker 4: know that, you know that is part of life as well,

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Speaker 4: learning what is true and what is not true and

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Speaker 4: finding your way through the information that's not right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, you've always had to You've always had to

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Speaker 3: filter your sources. You know, you're getting some feedback after

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Speaker 3: a sports game and someone saw that that was a foul,

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Speaker 3: and the other person didn't think that was a foul,

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Speaker 3: and who do you believe because they actually were both

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Speaker 3: watching the same game. So in every aspect of life,

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Speaker 3: you've got to filter the information you're given and try

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Speaker 3: to work out what is the best course of action

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Speaker 3: for you. But given that humans are pack animals and

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Speaker 3: we don't do well by ourselves, it's really important that

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Speaker 3: we help provide our young people with the skills to

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Speaker 3: engage in the majority with other humans. And it might

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Speaker 3: be good that you embellish what you're doing with in

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Speaker 3: the digital space, but actually your primary connection's got to

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Speaker 3: be with real people.

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Speaker 4: And finally, Vaughn, do you think the government should be

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Speaker 4: jumping in and regulating this kind of thing a ban

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Speaker 4: for under sixteens like has been suggested for social media,

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Speaker 4: or do you think that's not practical.

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Speaker 3: Practically that's particularly challenging. You know, I'm a very proactive parent.

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Speaker 3: My wife and I very pro have parents with our

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Speaker 3: children when they were younger, and it's very, very, very

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Speaker 3: difficult to work out what they're doing every minute of

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Speaker 3: every day. And the reality is the practicalities of how

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Speaker 3: to create consequence for the provider of those social media

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Speaker 3: services should they have been found to be in breach

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Speaker 3: would be particularly challenging. And we can lock to overseas

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Speaker 3: jurisdictions around that, and they're all fumbling with the same thing.

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Speaker 3: The reality is what it comes down to is healthy,

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Speaker 3: strong families and people knowing what their kids are doing.

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Speaker 2: Vaughn, great to chat with you. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: You're at the cold front of a very interesting type

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Speaker 2: in education. But really appreciate your time.

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