1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: With us. Now we have Nikola Willis finance mister, Hey Nikola. 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 2: Hello, how are you very well? 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Thank you? Now, how much power does the Public Service 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Commission have in this investigation? 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 2: Well, it has powers into the Public Service Acts to 6 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: conduct independent inquiries. That means it can require information from 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: government agencies. It can provide oversight of their decision making 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: and investigate what's going on. In this case, the two 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 2: party Mati allegations are the allegations of Mana a Mudrai 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: all relate to New Zealander's personal information. So the concern 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: that we have is to ensure that government agencies have 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: had the proper processes in place to protect information and 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: ensure that any potential conflicts of interest have been well managed. 14 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so it can compel evidence from the government agencies, 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: but can it compel evidence also from other people involved 16 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: in these allegations like the White peta to trust, the 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Marti Party, et cetera. 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: No, in the first instance, you would expect that to 19 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 2: be the role of the police or the Privacy Commissioner, 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: who have their own coercive powers in relation to allegations 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: that are made to them, should they choose to use 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: those powers. So The reason we've got the Public Service 23 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: Commissioner involved is really that we want to make sure 24 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 2: that we've got our own house and order as government, 25 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: which is to say, have government agencies acted appropriately? Have 26 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 2: they had the good systems and processes? Is there any 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 2: tune up that's required at our end? What are the 28 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: facts here about what's actually gone on? Because protecting New 29 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: Zealander's data goes to the heart of our democratic process 30 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: and we need to make sure that if any mistakes 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: have been made yet, they are corrected. 32 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is going to look at, for example, 33 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: if MESD just naming an agency or statistics. New Zealand 34 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: acted quickly when they were first told these allegations. 35 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 2: Exactly, and also in the first place when they set 36 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: up these arrangements. Do they have appropriate safeguards in place 37 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: for the protection of people's personal information by a third 38 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: party providers? Did the safeguards work? Are there good institutional 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: arrangements for the way personal information is used? Was there 40 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: review to check that there were conflict if there were 41 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: conflicts of interest where they properly managed those are issues 42 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: that you can see matter in this case. But also 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 2: we have to be clear that if there are any 44 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: problems with processes that will fixed them for the future too. 45 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: What if I was found that any of these agencies 46 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: did not act properly and there's strong reason to suspect that, 47 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: what's the consequence. 48 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 2: Well, in the first instance, the Public Service Commissioner would 49 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: be doing fact finding, fund those facts and they make 50 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: recommendations for what needs to change, what went wrong and why, 51 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: and then those recommendations would come to me as minister. 52 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: In the first instance, I would involve other ministers, then 53 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: we'd go from there. 54 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is a tricky thing to deal with, 55 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: isn't it. 56 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think we're all really conscious that there is 57 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: an an independent process being run by the police and 58 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: the Privacy Commissioner and it's not appropriate for there to 59 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: be any political influence of those independent processes. At the 60 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: same time, as a government, we do have an obligation 61 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 2: here to make sure that government agencies have done the 62 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 2: right thing. 63 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. When you guys were considering what to do with this, 64 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: and I know that you guys thought about it a 65 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: long time, I mean clearly you did, right, these allegations 66 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: came out more than a week ago. Did you think 67 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: about the possibility that the Marti party could turn this 68 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: into some sort of a Trumpian thing and start claiming 69 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: a witch hunt. 70 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: Well, look, we're really conscious that because this involves another 71 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: political party, that we have to act really carefully to 72 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: make sure that it's not even perceived that we're acting 73 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: on this for any political reason. That's not what is 74 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: motivating us here. What this is about as New Zealander's data, 75 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: their personal information, and we do want NGOs, non government 76 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: organizations to be able to access that data sometimes in 77 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: order to deliver good public services. But if we're going 78 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: to do that, we have to be I'm really sure 79 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: it's being used appropriately and they're a good safeguards in place. 80 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: Have any offshoal investors indicated an interest in coming back 81 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: to do any oil and gas work here. 82 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: Look, I haven't got an update on that from Minister Jones, 83 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: but I can tell you what he is very keen 84 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: in everything he can to make it easier for them 85 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: to come back. At the weekend, of course announced the 86 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: reverse of the oil and Gas band, but in the 87 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: bill that he's putting forward there are other changes to 88 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: address concerns that overseas investors have had with investing in 89 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: oil and gas exploration here. That's things like the restrictions 90 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: that are emplaced on how permits are allocated, things like 91 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: the decommissioning requirements and other regulatory matters which he's seeking 92 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 2: to tidy up to make it an attractive place to invest. 93 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: He wants to reprise the nineteen seventy three Mali gas contract. 94 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: Would you be up for that? 95 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 2: Well, what I know is that we need gas as 96 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 2: a trend vis fuel if we're going to have reliable 97 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 2: energy supply. I don't want this to be a country 98 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: where we literally have to tell our dairy factories to 99 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: stop processing milk because there isn't enough gas for our 100 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: schools and hospitals. And that is literally something that we 101 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: are having to contemplate and the cabinet at the moment 102 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: is what happens when the gas runs out? If it 103 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: runs out, who are we going to ration? Un Solo's 104 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: going to be at the back of the queue. That's 105 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: not a way for developed country to run. So we 106 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: have to be very open minded about it. 107 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more. It's crazy that we're 108 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: in this position. But would you be okay as going? 109 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: Would you be up for going as far as the 110 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three Mali Gas contract. 111 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know anything about that contract either. 112 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. No, that's okay. The important thing 113 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: in the Mali Gas contract is that it was for 114 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: a long time, but it also made the Crown a shareholder, 115 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: a stakeholder and a fifty percent owner. Would you be 116 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: up for something like that. 117 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: Well, I'd have to be convinced. I'd really have to 118 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: be convinced that that's necessary for the taxpayer to make 119 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 2: that in my preference would for the private sector to 120 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: be making those investments. 121 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: Hey, how's it going with the building the ten thousand 122 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: ev charges? How many have you built? 123 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 2: We're still coming up with the perfect model. There is 124 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 2: that and night were no. No, we keep money in 125 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 2: the budget because we do think the government's got a 126 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: role to play in building EV charges. The Minister of 127 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: Transport is coming up with a model for how we 128 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 2: do that co investment because obviously we want to maximize 129 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: private investment. We don't want the government going around building 130 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: ev charges that the private sector would have happily built. 131 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: So we're coming up with a model there to supercharge 132 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 2: that program. But we also have another role, which is 133 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: just reducing the red tape, the regulation, having consistent standards 134 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: and working with the electricity authority or the connection costs 135 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: for those matters. So Simeon's progressing that work. He'll be 136 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: reputting back to Cabinet later this year. 137 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: Nicholas, what are we going to do about the Aussie 138 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: deportations where these guys are going to start sending people 139 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: back here who have in some cases not been in 140 00:06:58,440 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: the country as adults. 141 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and I find this one of those 142 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: really difficult issues where just on the face of it, 143 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: to me seems wrong to be deporting people to New 144 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 2: Zealand who have no connection to New Zealand, whose formative 145 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: experiences we're in Australia. At the same time, as I 146 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: think it's a disappointing approach from Australia and regressible, I 147 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: do recognize that there's a sovereign country, they have the 148 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: right to implement it. 149 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: So what are we going to do about it? 150 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: Though, Well, we're going to keep reminding the Australians off 151 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: the commitments that made to us, which is to apply 152 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: a common sense approach to these decisions, and we're just 153 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: going to have to keep being the flea in the area, 154 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: reminding them of those commitments to us and the context 155 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: of our strong and trusting relationship and expecting them to 156 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: uphold those com up. 157 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: What about a little bit of social investment, which you're 158 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: the minister of at the border right, So, realizing that 159 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: a lot of these people will come here and they 160 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: will have not enough and not enough kind of I 161 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: guess income and whatever to fall back and will therefore 162 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: fool themselves into crime, maybe the social investment thing to 163 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: do would be to provide them with enough accommodation to 164 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: kind of see them through for a few weeks, help 165 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: them find a job and stuff so they go on 166 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: the straight and arrow. 167 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: Look, I think there's something in that, Heather, and it 168 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: is something that I think it's worth talking to the 169 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: relevant authorities about because, as you say, if you've got 170 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: people bouncing into the country with nowhere to live, no 171 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: connection in their first port of call as the local gang, 172 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: then that's a bad recipe for everyone involved. So it 173 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: is something I'll take up with the Minister of Justice 174 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: called Goltsmouth and see what the thinking is there, Because 175 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: we all know five Oho ones have reached a lot 176 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 2: of havoc in our community too. 177 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: Right they have. Hey, Nicholas, thank you very much. We'll 178 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: talk to you again in a week. Look after yourself. 179 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: That's Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister. 180 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to 181 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: news Talks. 182 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 183 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.