1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,279 Speaker 1: Right now, though, Let's get more on the COVID report 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: and the restrictions endured by kiwi's Chris Hopkins was the 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: COVID minister at the time and is with us now. 4 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: High Chippie Heather, what made you decide to keep Auckland 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: in lockdown five days longer than Ashley Bloomfield told you to? 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: So Ashley Broomfield's advice at the cabinet meeting was different 7 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: to the advice that was reflected in the cabinet paper. 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 2: So at the cabinet meeting he argued in favor of 9 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: the decision that we ultimately took and that image is 10 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: into then announced that afternoon. 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: Have you got paper trail to prove it? 12 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 2: Well, he spoke to that at the press conference, so 13 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: there's a pay per trail of there's a transcript of 14 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: the press conference where he said, my advice to the 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: cabinet was to extend the lockdown for another five days. 16 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: But he's going to say something like that. It's basically 17 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: collective cabinet responsibility, isn't it. So what is your proof 18 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: that he changed his advice completely overnight? 19 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: Well, this was not unusual. So during COVID, the cabinet 20 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: papers were often prepared several days before the cabinet meeting, 21 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 2: and they were based on preliminary public health advice. Director 22 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: General would then attend the meetings and he would present 23 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: the most up to date public health advice based on 24 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 2: what was available that morning to the cabinet at the meeting. 25 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: And that's what happened in the substance. 26 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: Okay, why did he change his advice? 27 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: Well, it would have been to do with what they 28 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: were seeing in terms of their contact tracing, the testing 29 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: results and so on that would have come in and 30 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: a couple of days between when the preliminary advice was 31 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: prepared and when he met with the cabinet that day. 32 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: Because I don't I mean, look, I'm going to sound 33 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: like I don't believe you, because frankly, I don't believe you, Chippy. 34 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the cabinet advice he gave you the 35 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: day before. It is an enormous bundle of papers, and 36 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: you want to tell me that he sat there and 37 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: prepared all of this advice for you, and then overnight 38 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: he slept on it and went, Actually, you know what, 39 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to go in there and I'm going to 40 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: tell them the. 41 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: Opposite well, you don't have to take my word for it. 42 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: Hither you can go and have a look at the 43 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: transcript of the press conference that very are you. Did 44 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: you where the Broomfield spoke to that? But let's also 45 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: be clear, because I've also spoken about this subsequently to that, 46 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: you know, over the last couple of years. I do 47 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: think the Royal Commission have a point saying that they 48 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: thought that the Auckland lockdown went on too lock I've 49 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: already conceded that, but it's wrong to say that we 50 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: didn't follow the public health advice. We did did that, 51 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: But did that result in us extending the lockdown too 52 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 2: long for Auckland? Yes, I think it did. 53 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: Did you tell the Royal Commission of Inquiry that they 54 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: were wrong and in fact he changed his advice orally on. 55 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: The day We went through all of that in great 56 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: detail with them, And you can see that because the 57 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: transcript of my multiple interviews with the Royal Commission is 58 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: attached to their report. 59 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: Why did you force kids under eighteen to take the 60 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: JAB twice when the officials told you that it was 61 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: risky for their hearts and you shouldn't do it. 62 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: That's actually incorrect. If you read the Royal Commission report 63 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: that advice never went to ministers and I am disappointed 64 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: by that because had that advice gone to ministers, the 65 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: decisions may well have been different. 66 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 1: Well, what's the advice they gave you? On the twenty 67 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: second of December twenty one, the second. 68 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: Of disas between the first, oh, sorry, The first piece 69 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: of advice that we received said that they thought that 70 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: we should consider allowing people to work in those settings 71 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: with only one dose of the vaccine. Subsequent advice raised 72 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: the concerns around myocarditis and so on, But that advice 73 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: never went to ministers and had it done, had it 74 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: gone to ministers, we may well have made different decisions. 75 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: But the Royal Commission itself found that that advice should 76 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: have gone to cabinet. It was a pretty major mistake 77 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: that it didn't go to cabinet. And the Ministry of 78 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: Health today have come out and said, yes, that they 79 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: admitted that they messed that up. 80 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: Are you telling me no ministers or any advice raising 81 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: questions about the safety of a second dose for kids? 82 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: That's correct, And the Royal Commission themselves wrote that in 83 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: their report. 84 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 1: Okay, twenty second of December twenty twenty one, you get 85 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: advice raising concerns about vaccine mandates requiring younger age groups 86 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: brackets eg. Those under eighteen years to be fully vaccinated. 87 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: Consideration should be given to permitting young younger people who 88 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: have had one dose to be exempt from mandates, and 89 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: one of you either I share or yourself rights in 90 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: the paragraph. In the margins of the paragraph, concerns at 91 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: the time were about insufficient data on safety of second dose. 92 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: So you knew that that was effectively the first advice 93 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 2: of which doctor Verel was you know, Following there, asked 94 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: for the further advice that was prepared on the issues 95 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: around safety. Unfortunately, that advice, that further advice never went 96 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: back to ministers after that. So she did the right 97 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,679 Speaker 2: thing in querying that and asking for the further advice 98 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: to be prepared. That further advice was then never given 99 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: to ministers. 100 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: But you guys knew, I mean, the thing about it 101 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: is you knew. What I don't understand is you knew 102 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: that there was concern that it was risky for their 103 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: little hearts. And they're only twelve years old, thirteen years old, 104 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: fourteen years old, fifteen years old, sixteen years old, seventeen 105 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: years old and so bloody hell beings on your mandates, 106 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: you still forced them to take the jab Why. 107 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 2: Either, that's totally incorrect. The advice that you are making 108 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: that claim based on never went to ministers. Ministers actually 109 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: specifically ask for their advice. They didn't go to ministers. 110 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: They didn't go to ministers. That was based on what 111 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: she was reading from around the world around our younger 112 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 2: age group vaccinations, but none of that advice ever went 113 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: to ministers. 114 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: Now do you regret not appearing before the Royal Commission 115 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: of the Commission of Inquiry? 116 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: I did twice, and you can see that because the 117 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: transcripts of my appearances before them both were released there publicly. 118 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: Well you can. People can go and read the transcripts 119 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 2: if they wanted. I've paid before the Royal Commission twice 120 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: and they've they've published a full transcript of every question 121 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: they asked me, in every answer that I gave them. 122 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: Do you think this was a fair report today? 123 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think on balance, I think the Royal Commission 124 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: have done a very good job. Doesn't mean I accept 125 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: every recommendation that they've made, but I think, on balance, 126 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: I think they've produced a very comprehensive and pretty balanced report. 127 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: So do you regret describing it as a platform for 128 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: those who have conspiracy theorist views in August last year. 129 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: I think the terms of reference were heavily politically loaded, 130 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 2: and I actually think the Royal Commission who've done a 131 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: very good job and it's a tribute to the three 132 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: members who did it of navigating those gyms of reference 133 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: and producing what I think is a pretty balanced report. 134 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: All Right, Chibbie, thanks for your time. Chris Hopkins, opposition 135 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: leader and of course former COVID minister. For more from 136 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to news Talks it'd 137 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.