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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from News Talks edb back for.

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Speaker 2: Preston, turn Mackenzie into the stands and the All blackstaffend

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Speaker 2: the Fortress twenty four seventeen and at all time chess

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Speaker 2: match between these two nations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a week ago at Eden Park. We

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Speaker 3: go again tonight at sky Stadium. Heineke Meyer is one

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Speaker 3: of the most celebrated rugby coaches in South African history.

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Speaker 3: He was the first South African coach to win Super

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Speaker 3: Rugby with the Balls in two thousand and seven. He

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Speaker 3: was Springbox coach from twenty twelve to twenty fifteen, guiding

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Speaker 3: South Africa to third place at the twenty fifteen Rugby

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Speaker 3: World Cup. Heineka Ia joins us on the show. Heinika,

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Speaker 3: great to get your expertise across New Zealand. Let's go

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Speaker 3: back a week. What did you make of the spring

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Speaker 3: Box performance at Eden Park last weekend?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Thanks? Firstly, just thank you for having me, Abbous.

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Speaker 5: You love your country, love the All Blacks and that

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Speaker 5: epic battles, so thanks for being on your show.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I thought it was an unbelievable test match. I

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Speaker 4: was glued to my seat.

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Speaker 5: I always knew it's gonna be very, very difficult because

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Speaker 5: especially with newziudn't losing against Argentina and with the Eden

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Speaker 5: Park record.

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Speaker 4: But I thought it was a brilliant, brilliant Test match.

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Speaker 4: I thought this didn't really played well. I think with

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Speaker 4: the old game.

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Speaker 5: Change for me was that when you didn't go to eat,

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Speaker 5: it's always going to be difficult for Africa to chase.

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Speaker 5: They're not a good chasing team and I just thought

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Speaker 5: the All Blacks want the small battles. I am, you know,

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Speaker 5: every small battle, especially in the rain. I thought this

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Speaker 5: landed really well and you know, put pressions in Africa

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Speaker 5: on the in the lineouts, but it all came down

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Speaker 5: to taking opportunities and it's always gonna be difficult if

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Speaker 5: you fought in zero down, especially away from home and

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Speaker 5: chasing in those wet conditions.

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Speaker 4: So I thought it was an.

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Speaker 5: Awesome teste match, so Africa that well to come back,

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Speaker 5: but I wasn't.

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Speaker 4: I was involved.

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Speaker 5: You know, I watched the previous two Test matches in

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Speaker 5: South Africa where the All Blacks was also aiding in

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Speaker 5: South Africa came back with their bench. I thought this

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Speaker 5: this time around the New Zealands show a lot of

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Speaker 5: more composure. But what the great Test match and believable

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Speaker 5: test match.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the best thing is we get another one

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Speaker 3: hopefully as good tonight. Interesting you mentioned the bench because

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Speaker 3: Resci Erasmus went with a five to three bench split

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Speaker 3: at Eden Park. He's done the same again tonight. Did

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Speaker 3: you think he might have gone six too, given how

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Speaker 3: effective the bomb squad tactic was in the in the

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Speaker 3: Rugby Championship in Johannesburg and Cape Town last year.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's worked for them.

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Speaker 5: I think with the seven one and it's too bigger

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Speaker 5: risk away from home and especially in New Zealand, I

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Speaker 5: thought a six two can work for them, and especially

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Speaker 5: I think if the game is squeak, obviously doesn't suit.

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Speaker 5: Soo Africa showed against Australia where they opened up the

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Speaker 5: game and played unbelievable rack me and then Australia came

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Speaker 5: back and beat us. But you know it just also,

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Speaker 5: I think he's got so much respect for New Zealand

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Speaker 5: because if you're not covered everywhere, New zident can take you,

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Speaker 5: you know, take you apart.

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Speaker 4: But I also think he sees the backers in back

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Speaker 4: so this week's going to be a total, total different game.

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Speaker 5: I still think they've got a good forward back, but

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Speaker 5: very exciting back.

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Speaker 4: So it's going to be a exciting game.

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Speaker 3: Do you expect then to be more expensive because it

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Speaker 3: was a type battle as you would have seen last

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Speaker 3: weekend at even part Do you expect both teams to

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Speaker 3: perhaps at least attempt to be a bit more expensive.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I know I'm probably old school, but I think

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Speaker 5: before I answer you there, I think it's going to

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Speaker 5: come down to three things. I think it's going to

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Speaker 5: come down firstly to the scrum battle, and then second

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Speaker 5: is going.

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Speaker 4: To come down to the aerial battle.

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Speaker 5: You know, New Zealand has struggled the first fifteen minutes

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Speaker 5: and then they scored two great trials and then to

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Speaker 5: Rafca the chase and then they couldn't just kick the

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Speaker 5: ball in the.

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Speaker 4: Air and contest.

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Speaker 5: So I think this line's done well of their team,

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Speaker 5: you know, especially the back three for the area battle.

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Speaker 5: And I think where these games are one and lost

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Speaker 5: is in the last twenty minutes when the impact players

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Speaker 5: comes on.

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Speaker 4: I think that Africa had a huge luxury you.

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Speaker 5: Know, in the way back, especially the two previous tests.

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Speaker 5: Is when they won in South Africa where the bench

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Speaker 5: they brought up was brilliant, very very much experienced guys

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Speaker 5: that could play, that could start an any these match.

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Speaker 5: You know that guys on the bench of sixty seventy

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Speaker 5: test matches new Zi learned that young guys on the

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Speaker 5: bench and still finding their feet. Suddenly South Africa also

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Speaker 5: has now more inexperienced guys on the bench and it

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Speaker 5: doesn't fight it as you know, as they used to.

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Speaker 4: So I think the.

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Speaker 5: Last twenty minutes, when the fresh leaks comes on, that's

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Speaker 5: going to be the big difference.

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Speaker 4: And I think the big.

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Speaker 5: Chance of the affic is going to be I mean,

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Speaker 5: I think Tony Brown's been brilliant. You know, they're moving

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Speaker 5: in the right direction, playing more expansive.

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Speaker 4: But the big question mark for me is.

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Speaker 5: Going to be when they played like that against Australia,

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Speaker 5: they were valeted and then suddenly when they got tired,

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Speaker 5: makes you know, mistakes and three turners crossed them three

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Speaker 5: three tries in Australia came back. So it's going to

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Speaker 5: be a fine line between you know, trying to be

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Speaker 5: expensive and these guys can score tries. They're very very

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Speaker 5: exciting and good forwards. But again, if they the one

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Speaker 5: thing I've learned against the Zilian, if you make mistakes,

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Speaker 5: they're going to punish.

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Speaker 4: So it's gonna be a fine balance. But I still think.

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Speaker 5: It's all going to be about, you know, set piece

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Speaker 5: and pressure and suffocate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those those areas you mentioned fascinating to me. The

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Speaker 3: scrum and the and the aerial part of the game.

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Speaker 3: I mean you would have seen the South African scrum,

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Speaker 3: you know, when that tight hit on New Zealand's ball

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Speaker 3: which indirectly led to a try. The aerial battle, I

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Speaker 3: think most of us thought South Africa had the better

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Speaker 3: of that.

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Speaker 4: Do you expect them.

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Speaker 3: To bomb away again tonight in Wellington? I mean it

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Speaker 3: might be a little bit windy. So do you think

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Speaker 3: they'll employ some of the tactics.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's I think they will, but I

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Speaker 5: think it will be stupid. If they picked this exciting

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Speaker 5: back line and they just want to play a tactical game,

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Speaker 5: then they probably would have gone with pol And and

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Speaker 5: Villian guys that's more used to that, and the nine

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Speaker 5: that's that's a good box kicker, like a fuff. I

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Speaker 5: think they're even gonna you know, take a cho once

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Speaker 5: play more expansive rugby, but they will always stick to

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Speaker 5: their DNA, you know, so they will there will there

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Speaker 5: will always.

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Speaker 4: Be aerial battle. I mean that's part of the new game.

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Speaker 5: But I think they're going to take more chances because

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Speaker 5: they feel that you have to score tries against New Zealand.

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Speaker 5: You're not just going to defend. They're not just going

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Speaker 5: to outmuscle them. And one thing I've been very impressed,

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Speaker 5: you know, I follow New Zealand in epic battles. I've

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Speaker 5: been really impressed. Are they improved in their forwards. The

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Speaker 5: big thing that I think they've done right is South Africa.

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Speaker 5: If they scram well, more well, pressure and suffocate, they

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Speaker 5: win games. Suddenly New Zealants stopping the malls and I

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Speaker 5: thought this, Youleents scram well bought that one scram So

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Speaker 5: I think they've done great work with their forwards, you know,

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Speaker 5: touffing them up, scramming well, puting pressure on the set piece.

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Speaker 4: So suddenly South Africa is a very very strong team.

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Speaker 5: They win the set piece battle and then they force

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Speaker 5: you into mistakes. But suddenly news Leents is really improved

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Speaker 5: in their forwards, and you know, I've been really impressed

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Speaker 5: with their scrammaging battle as well lately, and I know

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Speaker 5: one scram was a bad scram, but all over, I

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Speaker 5: think they've done great work with their forwards.

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Speaker 3: We're right in the middle of a World Cup cycle.

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Speaker 3: We're two years since the last one and two years

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Speaker 3: away from the next one. How much evolution in terms

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Speaker 3: of players in playing style do you expect from the

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Speaker 3: spring box between now and the next Rugby World Cup.

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I think they're in a difficult cycle because a lot

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Speaker 5: of those guys that won two World Cups. You know,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to take credit, but I picked most

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Speaker 5: of those guys at twenty one two and the All

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Speaker 5: Blacks had a brilliant team. I remember we last against

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Speaker 5: two points, but most of those All Black teams had

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Speaker 5: handed test matches and they were legends of the game.

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Speaker 4: And now that's you know, it changes.

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Speaker 5: They got older and rebuilding and South Africa is now

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Speaker 5: where the All Blacks who are when I used to coach.

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Speaker 5: But now also, you know, do you keep these guys

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Speaker 5: for another two years and they're all going to be

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Speaker 5: thirty five and you know, probably over their best or

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Speaker 5: do you do you start pushing the youngsters, and I

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Speaker 5: think it's going to be a combination, but it's gonna

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Speaker 5: be interesting times. You know, I think he has to

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Speaker 5: give youngsters a chance. But again, you know, I respect

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Speaker 5: the All Blacks so much. Every Test match against them

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Speaker 5: as a battle, especially away from home. So in the

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Speaker 5: one sense, it's good giving guys chance.

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Speaker 4: On the other side, you want.

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Speaker 5: To pick your best team because you have to be

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Speaker 5: at your beastically going to beat the All Black So

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Speaker 5: this is going to be a very interesting test match.

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Speaker 3: And you it's a mepic battles with the may As coach.

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Speaker 3: That narrow semi final loss at the Rugby World Cup

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Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen, does that still sting.

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Speaker 4: A little bit?

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Speaker 3: Do you still think about that that game?

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Speaker 5: Listen every game against New Zealand sting. We had epic battles,

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Speaker 5: and myself and Steve, you know, we tried to bring

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Speaker 5: back the mutual respect and I think it was great.

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Speaker 5: We had beers afterwards and I think we both both

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Speaker 5: old schooled and believe in the ethics of the game,

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Speaker 5: so it was great battles. I think, you know, that

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Speaker 5: was one of the best teams that ever played a game.

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Speaker 5: And you know, the last few games I think we

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Speaker 5: won one by two points, lost one by two, lost

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Speaker 5: other one by three. So I always felt we closed

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Speaker 5: the gap. But so much respect for that team. And

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Speaker 5: obviously every game where you present your country, you don't win.

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Speaker 5: But I always, I always knew that you have to

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Speaker 5: be at your best, and that was epic battles. You know,

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Speaker 5: I really really thought that was an amazing team and

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Speaker 5: it was just such an honor.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 5: I always stood, you know, on the sidelines, facing the

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Speaker 5: half gut not to want to be on TV. I

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Speaker 5: just I've got so much respect, and you know, I

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Speaker 5: want to be.

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Speaker 4: There and experience that.

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Speaker 5: So I was so blessed, you know, to coach against

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Speaker 5: them not easy. I would like to prefer to to

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Speaker 5: coach against easy New Zealand teams, but you don't get

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Speaker 5: easy New Zealan teams. But yeah, we had epic battles

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Speaker 5: and the good friends a lot of those guys, and

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Speaker 5: so much respect, you know, between the two countries, and

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Speaker 5: I think that's great for the game.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that respect continues between the players, the coaches

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Speaker 3: and the fans as well. At one surprise, you'll learn

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Speaker 3: there were there were thousands of South African fans there

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Speaker 3: last week mixing with the All Blacks fans, the vibe

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Speaker 3: was fantastic and we're hoping for more of the same tonight. Haneker,

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Speaker 3: has been great to get the chance to chat. Thanks

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Speaker 3: for being so generous with your time this afternoon.

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Speaker 4: No, thank you so much. And yeah, I just hope

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Speaker 4: these battles and keep on going.

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Speaker 5: And like you said, you know, it's such a great

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Speaker 5: to two of the best countries in the world playing

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Speaker 5: agains each other but afterwards being friends, and I think

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Speaker 5: that's what's racy is all about. And we're looking forward

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Speaker 5: to a great desk match. I think there's gonna be

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Speaker 5: a crack off a game and I can't wait. Different

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Speaker 5: you know, different things are upenning with both sides, new

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Speaker 5: jillions on the apps. That Africa has got huge challenges,

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Speaker 5: but it's gonna be it's gonna be small, small margins,

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Speaker 5: and I just hope we get a great, great desk

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Speaker 5: match and keep the friendship and keep the battles going.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure we will. Honek, I'm sure we will.

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Speaker 3: Thanks again for your time, Honeck. Am I there one

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Speaker 3: of the most celebrated rugby coaches in South African History

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Speaker 3: and spring Box Coach between twenty twelve and twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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