1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business Editor at 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: is a podcast. 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: About money, but we're not going to. 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: Tell you how to get rich, and we're not going 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: to try and pick the next interest rate move. In 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: over the years. Today I am joined by the host 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: of TVNZ's Q and A News Talk zb's Saturday mornings, 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: Jack tame Cura, Jack Calda Lev. 12 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: Welcome to Money Talks. How's the running going, Oh? Very poorly? 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 2: I mean you you you have been subject to my 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 2: running in the past. Yeah, you've been a witness and 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 2: as you know, I'm not someone who is blessed with 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: a very esthetically pleasing running technique. And I'm now very 17 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: much insconsin middle age and I've recently discovered the toxic 18 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: mix of middle age and social sport, which means that 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: it's taken me about three months to get over a 20 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: sprained ankle. But I'm back out there pounding the pavements, 21 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: albeit not very graceful. I thought a better disclosed that 22 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: we've been running a few times. I'm broken down at 23 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: the moment. Okay, there's two of us. 24 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: It's gone, trying to get back into action. But you know, 25 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: there are some other things we can talk about growing 26 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: up in christ Church and Cashmere and so forth. So 27 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: let's go right back and can I ask you what 28 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: your first memories are of having money? 29 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 2: Do you recall holding it in your hands? I have 30 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: a couple of early memories I thought I would share 31 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: with you, And I knew you were going to ask 32 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: that question because I always listened to the show. So 33 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: I'm delighted to be here. A couple of things. First 34 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: of all, at Christmas time, my mum is a real 35 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 2: stickler for tradition, and when she was a kid, her 36 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: mum had made one of those really old school, amazing 37 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: boiled fruit puddings, like mixed fruit puddings, and as part 38 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: of that she would put silver coins inside the pudding. 39 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: And then it was the kind of pierced the resistance 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: of the Christmas lunch. You'd have the turkey, you'd have 41 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: everything else, and then for dessert, Dad would make custard, 42 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: would get ice cream out. We'd have all these other 43 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: little treats and Mum would bring this big pudding out 44 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: to the middle of the table and she would light 45 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: it on fire and burn off all of the remaining liquor. 46 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: But before doing that, she would bury these silver coins 47 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: in the pudding. And so I can remember as a 48 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: little kid, everyone saying, be careful, be careful when you're 49 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: eating the pudding, because there are going to be coins 50 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: in there. Make sure you don't choke on the coins. 51 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: And you know, I was a young little capitalist who 52 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: also loved dessert, so it was kind of combining two 53 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 2: of my favorite and most exciting things. And I would 54 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: eat as much pudding as possible in order to get 55 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: as many silver coins as possible, because at the end 56 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: of Christmas dinner, Mum would exchange them for real money. 57 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: So if you had, say a florin, you get twenty 58 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: cengs classic. It was the classic old, you know, because 59 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: I think I don't know that you can put the 60 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: new modern ones in there. I think there's something about 61 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: my mum, being the woman she iss will have researched this, 62 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: but I think I don't thk they're supposed to boil 63 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: the new metal, yeah, but the old metal you could safely. 64 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: You could safely boil, and so yeah, we would do that, 65 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: and I would so you'd finish. And so the last 66 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: event on Christmas Day was the swapping with the exchanging 67 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: of a couple of florins for and you know, you 68 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: were always trying to get the serve of Christmas pudding 69 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: that had the most coins in it, so I remember that. 70 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: I also, I don't remember getting pocket money for the 71 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: first time, but as the oldest of four, I distinctly 72 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: remember when my sister got pocket money for the first time. 73 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: And I remember it because I immediately determined that she 74 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: was younger than I had been when I first got 75 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: twenty cents or fifty cents a week. And so when 76 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: Mum and Dad set me down and explained to me, oh, 77 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: you know we've given you know, we're giving your sister 78 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: pocket money now as well, I remember trying to ask 79 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: them if they would backdate me pocket money to the 80 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: time of my life when I had been the same 81 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: age as my sister now was in receiving pocket money 82 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: for kind of so I was already kind of like 83 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: trying to try to work something to get a bit 84 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: more cash. Negotiation. Yeah, it's the curse of the eldest though, 85 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: isn't it because the youngest always get a little bit 86 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: of scrub. Yeah, yeah, great. So you were getting pocket 87 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: money at some point. Did you save it? Did you 88 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: spend it? Do you remember what? Yes? I just think 89 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: so I got a very small amount of pocket money, 90 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: but I wanted more money from a young age, and 91 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: I remember a couple of things. So I remember that 92 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: my first money making scheme, which was to sell plums 93 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: on the side of the road. We had a prolific 94 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 2: plum tree and my parents tried to They saw it 95 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: as a learning opportunity, and so we went to the 96 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: supermarket and my plan had been just to steal a 97 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: few produce bags, you know, the old plastic bags used 98 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: to have the produce. I was like, well, I can 99 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: just take those. Those are free, and Mum and Dad 100 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 2: were like, no, no, no, that's a capital expense for 101 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: your business. So they made me go and buy these 102 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: little plastic bags. And then I picked all the plums 103 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: with my sister. We went and put them in plastic bags. 104 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 2: We had a whiteboard at home and I would hold 105 00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: up a sign on the side of the road saying 106 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: plums for dollar, and cars would stop and I remember 107 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: we made a profit of about seven dollars each, which 108 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: was a huge sum of money at the time. And 109 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: my dad said, bad news, guys, and we said what 110 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: and he said, you got to pay tax seven dollars 111 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 2: and we were like, you know, we would have been 112 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: probably ten years old. I would have been ten years old. 113 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. Fortunately my mum intervened. But my 114 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: dad is an accountant, right, because it sounds very entrepreneurial. 115 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: That was quite entrepreneurial, and I actually had a few 116 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 2: other entrepreneurial measures throughout my high schooling years. I would 117 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: go and busk outside Barrington Mall in christ Church with 118 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: my best mate Mike, and he had the voice of 119 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: an angel. But I had the entrepreneurial skills to really 120 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: hustle for the money, and I had I had all 121 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: of these little I remember having all of these little ideas, like, 122 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: for example, I don't know if you've ever busked before. 123 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: That we very quickly worked out was sort of real 124 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 2: time data which songs made the most money, right, And 125 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 2: so we knew that there were certain songs that would 126 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 2: appeal to a certain demographic that was more likely to 127 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: give us cash. So, for example, you go hard on 128 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: Cat Stevens. We were just like, we would play Cat 129 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: Stevens over and over again. But what we would do 130 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: is we would have a little bucket out there, and 131 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: when it filled up with seven or eight dollars, we 132 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: would then, when no one was looking, secrete that money away. 133 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: So again it looked like so that the thing was 134 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: never have more than a few bucks and the bucket. 135 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: So people walk past and they give you more cash. 136 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 2: And this will sound crazy when I said to you, 137 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: we would finish a day with eight hundred dollars. Wow, 138 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: we made hundreds of dollars. And you can only you 139 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 2: can only do this every now and then. But you 140 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 2: know I was in my teens. Again, my dad being 141 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: an accountant, he made me pay tax. Well, he'd be like, 142 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 2: that's great, you've made this. 143 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: Actually claim the tax back later on as a child, 144 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: because you'd hope. 145 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: So, yeah, I wouldn't have thought that, yeah I was 146 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 2: paying much tax. But to your question, I had a 147 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: full time or I had it not full time. I 148 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 2: had a paper around from about the age of eleven 149 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 2: or twelve, started that as young as I possibly could, 150 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: and from the moment that I had regular income, my 151 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: Mum would make me keep a balance book, and every 152 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: month I had to work out my sums and the 153 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: rule was that I had to save sixty five percent 154 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: of what I earned and I could spend thirty five 155 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: percent of what I am right specific, very specific, and 156 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: so I wasn't blowing all of my money. I was 157 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: very much saving from the word go, very nerdily. And 158 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: it was a painful exercise for everyone in the house 159 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: when once a month we had to sit down and 160 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: make and compare our pay slips with whatever money had 161 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: gone into our bank accounts and then make sure that 162 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: we had saved sixty five and been thirty five. 163 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: It's sort of I mean, this is jumping ahead, and 164 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: I'll come back to life in christ Church and Keshma 165 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: High School and things. 166 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: But it's so entrepreneurial. How do you end up in journalism? 167 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: How come you're not totally I wish well I've had. 168 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I I did my toes in the shear market, 169 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: as other people do, with mixed success, to say the least, 170 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: I definitely had as a younger person. I definitely had 171 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: an entrepreneurial streak, and funnily enough, if I weren't in 172 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: journalism as much as I as fulfilling as my job 173 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: is now, business commerce economics are still really interesting to me. 174 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: And if I think if I would have another career, 175 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: especially if I were starting now, that that's probably the 176 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: direction I would hit in, right. 177 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, let's talk about school. We went to 178 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: the same school, Keshmia High School. It's turned out a 179 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 1: few good journalists. I've talked to Guy and Espiner, my 180 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: kid brother Koren. 181 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: And a few others. 182 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: There's a few years between us. I wasn't at school 183 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: at the same time as you by a fair way. 184 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: In fact, I suspect I think one of my friends 185 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: had gone back as a teacher and was a teacher, 186 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: mister Billings. Ah, I would to age myself horrendously. How 187 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: was that environment for you growing up in christ Shurch 188 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: in the nineties, was the sort of were aware of 189 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: the economy and all that sort of stuff. It's a 190 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: little bit of a. 191 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: Yearh So for people who are outside of christ Church, obviously, 192 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: schools are a big deal in christ Church, and schools 193 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: are kind of inextricably linked with class, as they are 194 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: in every New Zealder city, But in christ Church, I 195 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: think in more ways than most. And it's my view 196 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 2: probably that in the last few years, and indeed in 197 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: the year's post earthquake, cash Me High, the public school 198 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: that we went to has probably become a bit more 199 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: Lardi Dah than when I was there, Like it seems 200 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: a bit wealthier now than when I was there relative 201 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: to other schools. It's not to say that it was 202 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 2: a tough school or anything like that. When I went there, 203 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: it was a do you know, I just had a 204 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: great childhood. I loved school. I just had the best time. 205 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: And so I feel, you know, I feel incredibly grateful 206 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: for the opportunities that I had through then, and was 207 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: I aware of wealth disparities. I would say that one 208 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: of the things I've been most fortunate about is that 209 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 2: I was aware of having a certain level of privilege, 210 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: but always kept in a really appropriate check by my parents. 211 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: So I can remember a couple of things. For example, 212 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: I can remember one time there was a you know, 213 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 2: you come home with a school slip that says, oh, 214 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: you need to pay this for this trip or something 215 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 2: I said. And I had a terrible habit, as many 216 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: teenage boys do, of never giving mom and dad the 217 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 2: notices from school. Now I remember I was cleaning out 218 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: my bag once I found a notice. I brought it 219 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: down to mom and dad and it was for something. 220 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: It was like an expense that was like ninety bucks 221 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 2: or one hundred bucks or something, which in two thousand 222 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 2: and three and still today, but in two thousand and 223 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: three was a lot of money. And I took it 224 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: down and it was due in about two days, and 225 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 2: my mum sat me down and she was like, we 226 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: can pay this, but this is a huge amount of money, 227 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: and you've given us almost no notice. And in order 228 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: for us to pay this, we're going to have to 229 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: move some things around. We're gonna have to do some 230 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: shuffling with our finances in order to be able to 231 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: pay this. You need to know that there are some 232 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: of your mates who if they'd done the same thing, 233 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: they wouldn't be paying the spill and they would be 234 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: done on this trip. And I remember that. I remember 235 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: that today. But that being said, you know, I think 236 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: I just I was afforded lots of opportunities that I 237 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: think lots of other kids didn't get, and I maybe 238 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: wasn't quite as aware that other kids didn't get those opportunities, like, 239 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: for example, my parents are big music heads, and so 240 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: my dad was like, if you experence any interest in 241 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: music whatsoever, we're doing it. I remember, you know, I 242 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: was ready into like old rock back then, and so 243 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: you know, and I played guitar and stuff, and my 244 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: parents are always paying for music lessons. And one time I said, oh, 245 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: you know, I'd be really good if my band could 246 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: practice at home, and Dad was like, we got great news. 247 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: We're buying a drum kit and stuff like that, which 248 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: which most kids probably couldn't do. So from busking, you didn't. 249 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: You weren't a tempted to carry that on or go 250 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: to go to I guess a sort of stage school, 251 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: or I was. I was definitely a performer in school, 252 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: but kept me a high school production. Yeah yeah, yeah, 253 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: I did that, and probably with mister Billings too. But 254 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: I had a real curiosity about the world, and I 255 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: think I probably grew out of performing being my absolute 256 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: number one passion. You know, I loved playing sport as well, 257 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: and so you know, for a while, you dream of 258 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: being an All Black, or dream of playing cricket for 259 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: New Zealand, and you know, you dream of being in 260 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: a really successful rock band or anything like that, but 261 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: I'd always been super interested in news. I've been super 262 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: interested in the world and been really curious, and so 263 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: I think by the time I finished high school, it 264 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: was really clear to me that a career where I 265 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: could put that curiosity into a really practical profession made 266 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. And when I finished high school, 267 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: I got into the New Zealand Broadcasting School, and you know, 268 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: I remember it was the first time in my life 269 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: that I thought, oh, my gosh, this is my tribe, 270 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: Like even when here is on the same page, this 271 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: is where I'm supposed to be. 272 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: I felt. It wasn't that I felt like an outsider 273 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: at school, because like I said, I had a great time, 274 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 2: but it was the first time I thought, my gosh, 275 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: I'm definitely in the right place. 276 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you kind of focused from there. You knew 277 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: what your goals were. 278 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I was a lousy student at high school 279 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: and that I just was quite a late bloomer and 280 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: many respects. And I remember in fifth form I had 281 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: like really good marks and then I was like, yeah, 282 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 2: my mark's are so good, I don't need to try, 283 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: and so I just didn't try, And like, sixth form 284 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: was an absolute disaster, and my mom used to be 285 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: a math teacher. And I think it was like two 286 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: days before the end of year sixth form exams and 287 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: my mum realized that I knew literally zero of the 288 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: entire curriculum. I knew nothing because I'd just been working 289 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: around in class. And so she sat me down and 290 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 2: for forty eight hours taught me the entire year twelve 291 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: math curriculum. And I, you know, scraped by however, and 292 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: I just I just did not apply myself academically at 293 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: all at high school. But then when I started studying 294 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: the first year out of high school at broadcasting School, 295 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: it had kind of been drummed into us that this 296 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: was an environment it's really competitive, and it's so hard, 297 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: and everyone he is so smart, and that kind of thing. 298 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, yeah, you've got to beat these things 299 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: up in your own head. And maybe it was just 300 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: because I was with my tribe. Maybe it was because 301 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: I felt like I had purpose, or I was really 302 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: passionate about it. Maybe it was just a combination of 303 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: those things and maybe a bit of maturing. But I 304 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: just applied myself for the first time. And as I 305 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: applied myself, I found that actually, you know, I was 306 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: really suited to it. 307 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it sounds like money, it's per se. Wasn't 308 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: really a goal through any of that, clearly, not when 309 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: you're failing maths in the sixth form. Yeah, but the 310 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: goal was to become a journalist and a broadcaster. 311 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. I have. Over summer I was going 312 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: through some old photo albums and I found a certificate 313 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: from when I was ten years old that said to 314 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: Jack for his keen interest in current affairs and news. 315 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: And I remember in English class US and year thirteen 316 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: the teacher saying, oh, you know, what are you reading 317 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: and what are you interested in? And I said, oh, 318 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: you know, what do you want to do in the 319 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: year to come? And I said, oh, I want to 320 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: be like Paul Holmes, you know, a job I wanted. 321 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: And it's quite unusual now that someone of my generation 322 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: I'm a millennial, would just have a really linear career, 323 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: but I, in a sense I have, and that I 324 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: have just done a version of the same job since 325 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: I was nineteen the year out of high school. Immediately 326 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: out of high school, I studied to be a journal 327 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: I became a broadcast journal and I've done it ever since. 328 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: So what was the first gig out of broadcasting school. Well, 329 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: I'd done some sort of work experience and stuff, so 330 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,119 Speaker 2: I again I was applying myself and I was quite strategic, 331 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: so I deliberately went and sought work experience with different places. 332 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: I went to news talks, heb, I went to radio sport, 333 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: I went to TV three and TV one. And when 334 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: I was still at broadcasting school, I got a call 335 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: out of the blue one day that said, hey, you know, 336 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: I'm the manager for tvn Z in the South Island. 337 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: We've got this job going on breakfast and it's currently open. 338 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know anything about it, but 339 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: would you be interested in interviewing for it? So I 340 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: got a cold call just randomly one day and it 341 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: was the next morning. The interview was the next morning, 342 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: so I had about, you know, I just had an 343 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: evening to prepare. And as it had turned out, one 344 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: of my tutors had recommended me to tv Z because 345 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: he did some tutoring, but he also worked at tvn 346 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: Z and he was it was just an incredibly generous 347 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 2: thing for him to do. And you know, you look 348 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: back at little things like that, and that was like 349 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 2: that sound grandiose. That changed the course of my life. Yeah, absolutely, 350 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: Like as a nineteen year old to get an interview. 351 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: I got the job and they said, here's the plan. 352 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: You're going to work on breakfast from five am to 353 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: nine m him every day, then go to broadcasting school, 354 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: do your day at broadcasting school, and then as soon 355 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: as you graduate broadcasting school, we'll give you a full 356 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 2: time internship. Well yeah, and then and that was it. 357 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: And like I said, because of you know, the company. 358 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: You get that break or you know, you might you look, 359 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: not saying you wouldn't have got there anyway, but you 360 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: might have been not going to pick a small town 361 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: and defend someone. You might have been on provincial radio 362 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: somewhere for a while or yeah like. 363 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 2: That, you know, yeah, yeah, do you know. It's funny 364 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: because I was very close friends with Maddy McLain at 365 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: the time, and he studied the same time as me, 366 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: and both of us aspired to getting similar jobs or internships, 367 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 2: and so I was fortunate to get this and Maddy 368 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: went to one Double X and Fakatani the radio station 369 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: absolutely loved it and crushed it, and then six months 370 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 2: later was also at TVNZ. Right, so there are kind 371 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: of two ways to look at it. Like sometimes I think, like, man, 372 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: would I have ever ended up there if I hadn't 373 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: got that call and had that chance. And sometimes I'm like, oh, 374 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: it's funny how the fates kind of come. 375 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: Together and you end up you know, you end up 376 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: working to get down Yeah, year or something like that. 377 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 2: I mean, you're on breakfast for quite a while. I 378 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: was on Breakfast for a while. And my ethos at 379 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: the time, so it was just when it was with 380 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: Paul Henry and k Gregory, and it was just when 381 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: live TV was kind of becoming a thing in New Zealand, 382 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 2: and my ethos was that I would get as much 383 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: experience out of everything as possible before trying to climb 384 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: the ladder. So I knew that I was the krill 385 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: basically in the newsroom. And obviously they're quite you know, 386 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: they certainly were there in quite competitive places. And so 387 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: I really benefited from timing because live TV was just 388 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 2: becoming a thing. The TVNZ newsroom in christ Gych at 389 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: that time had this incredible wealth of super experienced, celebrated reporters, 390 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: really celebrated reporters, and they all had done amazing things 391 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 2: and won lots of awards and stuff, but many of 392 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: them had had very little live TV career, live TV experience. 393 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: Because they didn't. Nowadays, everyone every reporter is standing there talking. 394 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: Constantly, right yeah, and even you know, people are used 395 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: to talking on their phones and Instagram lives and that 396 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: kind of thing, and back then it just didn't happen. 397 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: So it just meant that all of these really experienced 398 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: reporters were really nervous about being live, and you know, 399 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: with us retisent to do it, whereas I was just 400 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: shitting myself about everything. And so I was like, well, 401 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: the difference between me, I'm nervous enough writing a script, 402 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: I'm nervous enough, interviewing someone. I'm nervous enough making coffee 403 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: for someone. What's the difference between doing that and doing 404 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: a live It's all it's all terrifying your hair. And 405 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: as such, I just I volunteered to do it wherever 406 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 2: I could. And because I volunteered to do it, I 407 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 2: got better at it. And as I got better at it, 408 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 2: I got more opportunities, and it all just kind of cascaded, 409 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: and you know, in the space for a couple of years, 410 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: I had many, many more. 411 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: Opportunities yeah, well, I mean you kind of ended up 412 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: probably as the US correspondent Knew Rope, right, that was 413 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: kind of quite a high profile role in terms of 414 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: live live cross from anything big that happened totally in 415 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: the States at that time. Can you tell me a 416 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: little bit about the financial life change going, you know, 417 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: so you get out of broadcasting school, you're kind of 418 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: straight into a job. But I mean, how was it 419 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: going to live in New York. I mean, it's I'm 420 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: sure they give you some money, but it must. 421 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: Be don't be sure. Yeah, So, first of all, I 422 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: mean I was Another reason I was lucky timing wise, 423 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: is because there was still a little bit of money 424 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 2: and TV back then, and obviously there's just nothing now. 425 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: So in terms of money, I remember leaving, I remember 426 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: joining TV and ZED as an intern, and the interns 427 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: wage was three hundred and twenty dollars a week tax free, 428 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: and I was flatting, and three hundred and twenty dollars 429 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 2: a week tax free. When you're flatting and it's two 430 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: thousand and seven or whatever, it was was like car cheing. 431 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: I was cashed up. All of my flatmates for university students, 432 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: so I was big bucks team and I would like, 433 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: I'd like throw the money around, get an extra beers 434 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: for the boys, like we get two takeaway pizzas like whoa, 435 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 2: And then you know, I've moved on to a full 436 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: time job and got a salary and stuff. But the 437 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: thing that people don't necessarily appreciate about those jobs, and 438 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it's exactly the same today, is 439 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 2: that the correspondent job in the US was not a 440 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: salaried position, right because of I think there are tax 441 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: implications if you have if you have a salary position, 442 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: and so basically you were essentially a freelancer working back 443 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: for New Zealand and knowledge that you're going to get 444 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: used yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and so so I. 445 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: But there was sort of no cast iron guarantees about anything. 446 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: And I had had a few savings at the time, 447 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 2: but I wasn't you know. I was just aware that 448 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: New York was going to cost a lot of money. 449 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 2: And I knew literally one person in New York, so 450 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: I didn't have many people I could kind of lean 451 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 2: on when I moved over there, but I did. I 452 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: did do one thing that proved to be a really 453 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 2: good decision. I went to TVNZ and I said, guys, 454 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: you do these crosses to New York all the time. 455 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: I think that camera technology is good enough that some 456 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: of them I could film myself, right And up until 457 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 2: that point, my predecessor, Tim Wilson, who's still a really 458 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: close friend, he would be the first to say he's 459 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 2: a bit of a technophobe. So every time he needed 460 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 2: to do a live cross in the field, like outside 461 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 2: in New York where you're actually showing the city, or 462 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: you know, you're traveling around the country, he would have 463 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 2: to hire a freelance cameraman. Freelance cameraman even in twenty 464 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: eleven twenty twelve in the States was costing twelve hundred 465 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: US bucks a day. That's a huge financial impediment, right 466 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: for it for a company. So I said to Steeping 467 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: and said, why don't you buy a camera, a cheap 468 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: camera and a tripod and microphones and stuff, and we're 469 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: ever possible, I'll film myself. And at the time they said, no, 470 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 2: we don't think that's a we don't probably think that's 471 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: a great idea. And I'm not sure what it was. 472 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 2: Maybe it was just a youthful cockiness or whatever, but 473 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,239 Speaker 2: I used a massive slab of my savings to buy 474 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: the kit myself well, and so I bore a camera 475 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 2: tripod all the works set up in a flat in 476 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: East Harlem, and I started teaching myself to film, and 477 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: in the kind of downtimes when the wem big stories 478 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: that needed to be covered, I would go out and 479 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: I would make a video and edit it, and then 480 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 2: I would send it to my family and say, oh, 481 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: this is the neighborhood I'm living in. You know, here's 482 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 2: Central Park and Spring, all of that kind of thing. 483 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: And of course the more I practiced, the better I got. 484 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 2: And it wasn't exactly award winning cinematography, but it was passable. 485 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 2: And I would film the stuff send it back for 486 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 2: TVNZ and they were like, hang on, that didn't cost 487 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 2: us eighteen hundred years, And I said, no, it didn't. 488 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: It costs you two hundred bucks and they said, what 489 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 2: do you mean. And I'd say, that's that's my fee 490 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: for filming it. That's contributing to camera and everything else, 491 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 2: and they said fair cop. And so for the five 492 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: years that I lived there, I traveled around the country heaps, 493 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: filming my own stuff, and of course it proved to 494 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 2: be a good financial decision because I paid off the camera, 495 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 2: but also it just upskilled me. And when you think 496 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 2: about how media has changed now and how especially how 497 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 2: TV has kind of evolved and got way cheaper and 498 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: all of those things. Gone are the days where you 499 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: are only expected to be able to do one thing, 500 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: And so it was it was a really good decision. 501 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 2: And you know, like I went to Guantna my Bay, 502 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: I took my kit because I could just travel by myself. 503 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 2: I took my kit to go on Ton and my 504 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: Bay and filmed the prisoners and gwan to stuff that 505 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: couldn't have got otherwise they couldn't have got or they 506 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 2: couldn't have afforded. And I think they probably had a 507 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: certain I don't know this for sure, but I think 508 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: there was a certain amount of money they were they 509 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: had assigned for my role. But by not spending money 510 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: on freelance New York cameramen, it gave me more fat 511 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: in the budget to travel around and do a whole 512 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: range of stories. And so in terms of experiences over 513 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 2: the time I was the year, I got to experience 514 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 2: way more than if they'd been paying for two of 515 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 2: us to do everything. Yeah, didn't necessarily look as good. 516 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: But you know, well it's that people people, you know, 517 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: where the people notice who knows you know, yeah, yeah, 518 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: the professionals maybe, but you know, the average person. 519 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, maybe not. And it was yeah, but it 520 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: just proved to be a really for me, it was 521 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: a really it was a really good decision. 522 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: So, I mean, again, there's a bunch of reasons for 523 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: that decision, but there's there's there's some economics in it. 524 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: You know, when you look at your career moves since then, 525 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: you've you've kind of got a multimedia role, a joint 526 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: sort of roll across you know, Indied, ME and TV 527 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: and Z. I mean, how do you put that together? 528 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: And how much was money a factor? And sort of 529 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: putting the way that you've you know, approached media since 530 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: you've got back. 531 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: So I was really lucky because I was man, being 532 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: with you just makes me reflect on I sound. I've 533 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: made myself sound way more kind of cunning and devious 534 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 2: and entrepreneurial than I really am. But anyway, I think 535 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: just luck has this huge kind of looming factor in 536 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: all of this, right, It's a symbiotic Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. 537 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: So when I was in New York, they decided to 538 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: launch seven chart the TV show Yea, And it was 539 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 2: rumored at the time that I don't know why, but 540 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: it was rumored that I might be a presenter on 541 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: the show, and for whatever reason, the bosses at Newstalks, 542 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: he'd be thought, oh, maybe Jack, who's only been in 543 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: New York for a year, is going to come back 544 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: and be a host on the show. But I personally 545 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: wanted to be over there reporting, experiencing all those different 546 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 2: things US elections and you know, everything else that was 547 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 2: going on. And so they called me up and said, oh, 548 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if you're thinking of anything, 549 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: but if you were, wink, nudge nudge. Support Holmes is 550 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 2: really unwell and his Saturday morning show on New Storks 551 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 2: hed B is probably not going to be a show 552 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: that he's going to have the capacity to do for 553 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: much longer. Is that something you'd be interested if you 554 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 2: were moving back? And I said, I'm really flattered, you know, 555 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 2: and Support Holmes is the legend of New Zealand broadcasting. 556 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: I'm not planning to come back. However, what about doing 557 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 2: the show from New York and again to the immense 558 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 2: credit and really with no good justification, they said, Okay, 559 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: just give it a go. Sure, And so for four 560 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 2: years when I was in New York, I would go 561 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: down to Tribeca to a studio up in this amazing 562 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 2: in this amazing radio building in the kind of heart 563 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: of New York broadcasting. I remember I'd go in and see, 564 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, Lady Gaga's outside today. Oh there's 565 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: Sheer today, Like just you know, like these incredible rappers 566 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 2: walking past. And then I'd be tuning and be like, yo, 567 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: News Talk's there'd be yeah, hello, yeah, and just just 568 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 2: through you know, incredible good fortune but also a really 569 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 2: brave and tenacious decision by my bosses at News Talk 570 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: that was able to work. And then I came back 571 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 2: to New Zealand after the twenty sixteen US election because 572 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: there was an opportunity on Breakfast and I really wanted 573 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 2: to work with Hillary Barry and I thought that'd be great. 574 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 2: And also Troop being told I was this will sound 575 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 2: really macab, but a big part of that job at 576 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 2: that time was just going and doing the massacre run. 577 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 2: So there would be a massacre here, a massacre there, 578 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 2: you have to scramble, fly out there, you turn up, 579 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: you report on the massacre, and yeah, there were just 580 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 2: heaps and heaps of these mass shootings, and after a while, 581 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: I just sort of felt like, ah, it's kind of 582 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 2: wearing me down, and it just it just for whatever reason, 583 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 2: it felt like a good time to move back, and 584 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: I really wanted to work with Hillary. It was a 585 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 2: going from being a kind of freelance reporter to being 586 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: a presenter is a huge change in terms of finances. 587 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: But in the years since, I would say that money 588 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 2: has not been a big or the big factor in 589 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 2: my decisions. So I was on Breakfast for a couple 590 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: of years with Hillary and and then Haley Holt, and 591 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,479 Speaker 2: then I moved to Q and A, which involved a 592 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 2: significant pay cut, which I totally leaned into because I 593 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: does mean getting into more serious particle. It was work 594 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: that I was more much more passionate about and more 595 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 2: excited about, and I was just exhausted from kind of 596 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: working myself too hard for a few years. And so, yeah, 597 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: it's funny because I've worked six days a week for 598 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: eleven years now something like that, and I've never For 599 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: two and a half or three years, I worked on 600 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: Breakfast as well as on Newstalk's CB, and I maintained 601 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: that there is just something about morning TV and having 602 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: to get up and be bright and for three hours 603 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: you're on air and all of that that just wears 604 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: you down. And I'm convinced that I aged two days 605 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: every day I work their job. I loved it. It 606 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: was a great job, but it really just took something 607 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 2: out of it. Just not natural to be that perpose, 608 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: I think. So Yeah, yeah, I reckon like getting up 609 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: after five is doable, getting up with anything starting with 610 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: a three? Yeah, you know, even if you're being paid 611 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: super well and you're in a high profile job, it 612 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: just breaks you down. Yeah. 613 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: How about I mean, you know you were single a 614 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: bachelor for quite a long time. You know you've been 615 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: married recently. Yeah, if you're a step dad, how does 616 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: that change the attitude to money is a bit more 617 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: feeling of responsibility and things? 618 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, good question, I think. I mean fundamentally, it changes 619 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 2: your priorities. Right. So I felt really passionately when I 620 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: was in New York and when I moved home from 621 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: New York, and I still feel passionately about this that 622 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: for the right stages in life, high density living is 623 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 2: absolutely crucial. In New Zealand. I think that for far 624 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: too long we have just allowed this kind of sprawl 625 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: and protection of these big spaces with very few people 626 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: living on them, in the central parts of our city 627 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: in particular. And so I was determined when I moved 628 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,479 Speaker 2: back from New York to have an apartment, to embrace 629 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: apartment living. That was great. Like I say, though, it's 630 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: all a time of life thing. My stepson's seven years old, 631 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: and I think in New Zealand, although more people should 632 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: be living in high density options, the thing about living 633 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: in New Zealand is when you're seven years old, you 634 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: want to be able to go outside and shoot a basketball. 635 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: And so it was really important for me in making 636 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: that transition to go from having an apartment and a 637 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: high density life to having a bit more space and 638 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: having a house. So that's the kind of the biggest 639 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: change that we've gone through in the last couple of years. 640 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,239 Speaker 2: As well as that, I should say, you know, I'd 641 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: never really thought about life insurance before, right, yeah, yeah, 642 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: you know, and making sure all of that really boring, like, 643 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: you know, make sure my will is in order. That 644 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: kind of stuff is all stuff that I am now 645 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 2: way more conscious of than I would have been a 646 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 2: couple of years ago, you know, a couple of years ago, 647 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm in it for me and myself 648 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: and I and now I think, well, you know, there 649 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: are obviously other mouths to feed, and we're the worst 650 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: to happen. I want to make sure that these guys 651 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: are Okay. 652 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you made obviously a smart financial decision just getting 653 00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: on the property ladder when you got back. 654 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: Ah, I did, except that I think I have a 655 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: real habit of mistiming the property market, right. And you know, 656 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: I look back at the in my apartment and I 657 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 2: massively overpaid for it. Not massively, but you know, as 658 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: a percentage of my income. Because i'd been out of 659 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: New Zealand for all of these years, I'd never bought 660 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 2: property before. I didn't really understand the market as well 661 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: as I probably could have, and so I think if 662 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 2: I had my time again, I just would have taken 663 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: a bit more time to properly understand the market before 664 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: diving in. But I sort of was in a real 665 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: rush to get on with life at that stage. I mean, 666 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: I'm hardly the first person to say this on your podcast, 667 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: but I just think housing is this kind of massive, 668 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 2: entrenched problem in our economy that we still haven't properly tackled. 669 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 2: And I know the current minister has some really quite 670 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: aggressive plans to do stuff about that, so maybe things 671 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: will change. But I'm acutely aware that, you know, I 672 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: have been in a high profile, very well paid, relatively 673 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 2: jobs and have managed to get on the housing letter. 674 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 2: If you are a nurse and a teacher looking to 675 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: start a life in our biggest city, it's very very 676 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: very difficult. 677 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: Let's get into some of the quick fire questions I 678 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: have here. What's the poorest you've ever been. 679 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: The poorest I've ever been was when I started. It 680 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 2: was before I had my It was when I had 681 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 2: zero dollars, which is when I had my Westpac savings account, 682 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 2: or it was the Trust Bank, but the Trust Bank 683 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: savings account. And so you would I remember at our school, 684 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: at our primary school, you were encouraged to bring in 685 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: a gold coin in your little book every week if 686 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 2: you could, and for me it was a real fat 687 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: I was like, why don't I have to take in 688 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: a gold coin? You know? And so I often just 689 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: didn't do it. But then I would have been about 690 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 2: seven or eight where I realized that the money would 691 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: ultimately be going to me, and all of a sudden, 692 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: I just became the It was there every week with 693 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: his little gold coin, you know, banking it away. After that, 694 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: the poorest I've ever been was when I was studying 695 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 2: and I had a student loan, and I remember I 696 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: wasn't getting the cost of living payments, but I did 697 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 2: get a couple of the bulk payments you could get 698 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: study Link that would help out with my And to 699 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: be honest, I wasn't putting that money towards books and 700 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: you know, computers and that kind of stuff. I was 701 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 2: putting it towards going to the pub and that kind 702 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 2: of thing. And you know, I had some pretty you know, 703 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 2: some pretty ill disciplined spending decisions during that period. Yeah, 704 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: they let you get ring up, get a big chunk 705 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: of money. Totally. I was right. Talk to my kid brother. 706 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: It's funny a I you know, I know people who 707 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: got out the absolute maximum from study Link in terms 708 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: of the student the cost of living and whatever one 709 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: you have to pay back. So they got the absolute maximum, 710 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 2: they banked it in high interest accounts or on term deposits, 711 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 2: and then they use that to pay for a house. 712 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 2: Which is it like, if you are if you are 713 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 2: disciplined enough as a nineteen weeks now it's interest free. 714 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: Since Helen totally totally and yeah we were. I was 715 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: paying seven percent, so not such a good idea, Yeah, 716 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: but yeah, now if you're clever. 717 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I had an interest for a student loan too, 718 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 2: and we had the ten percent bulk payback thing, so 719 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: I ended off ended up paying back my student loan 720 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 2: with the benefit of that ten percent thing. So if 721 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 2: you gave like two thousand dollars, the government would contribute 722 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 2: an extra two hundred, right, which I think I helped 723 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: to pay mine off. 724 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, flip it round. What's the most indulgent purchase you 725 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: ever made. 726 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 2: I'm not really into things, into material possessions. I'm really 727 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 2: into experiences, and so I've never hesitated to spend thousands 728 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: of dollars on holidays and adventures. And if I was 729 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 2: to assess all of my big expenses of my life, 730 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: that would that would certainly take the cake in terms 731 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 2: of material experience material possessions. I've got a like a 732 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: three thousand dollars Gibson guitar, and I've got a big TV, 733 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 2: but I bought that second hand, so I reckon that 734 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 2: that probably doesn't count. And you know driver a twenty 735 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: twelve Toyota Corolla. Yeah, you know, I don't. I just don't. Really. 736 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: It's about doing things, definitely, about doing things rather than 737 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: rather than experiences rather than stuff is usually there. So, 738 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: speaking of material possessions, you're famously, to a certain point 739 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: in your life had never owned a couch. 740 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I really embraced a minimalist esthetic there 741 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 2: for a while. In that first apartment that I had, 742 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: I yeah, I had a couple of big armchairs. They 743 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 2: were nice, expensive armchairs, and I just figured I don't 744 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 2: really need a couch because these are great arm chairs 745 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 2: and you can kind of sit here, and you know, 746 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 2: and I had that the apartment had really big windows, 747 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 2: and so I thought, well, you know, you're gonna swivel 748 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 2: on these arm chairs look out the window anyway. You 749 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 2: don't need a couch, and it would be crazy to 750 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: put a couch in front of these big windows. My 751 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 2: wife has delighted that I have matured in my tastes 752 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 2: a little bit, so we now have not one, but 753 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: two or three couches. Even so, yeah, those those days age, Yeah. 754 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: The indulgent purchases another weird one, you know, a promise 755 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: to Christopher Luxen was asked about his grocery spend on 756 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: the election campaign, and I always think he maybe didn't 757 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: quite understand the question because he said sixty dollars. He 758 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: bought some coffee and he talked about his flat and Wellington. 759 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 2: But anyway, he got a bit. 760 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: Of stick for that. But how do you approach a 761 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: grocery spend? Are you a big spending shopper at the supermarket? 762 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 2: So this is the nerdy kind of interested in the 763 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 2: economics side of me. I often break my life down 764 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: into little parcels of productivity, so I think, like, what 765 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 2: is an hour of my time worth and how do 766 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 2: I want to spend it. Thus, one of the things 767 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: I'm happy to outsource is meal planning. I absolutely hate 768 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 2: spending time on meal planning. I look at my sister 769 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 2: who is amazing with her budgeting, and she's really careful 770 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 2: with every dollar spent in her household, and she thinks 771 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 2: about meals a month in advance and has a chest 772 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 2: freezer and all of that stuff. We don't do that 773 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,919 Speaker 2: in our house. In our house, I'm like, right, four 774 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 2: meals a week, happy to have that as a as, 775 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 2: a food bag thing, a food kit thing, whatever turns 776 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 2: up on the box turns up, and the rest of 777 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 2: the stuff I will we will get from the supermarket 778 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: and we'll just kind of, you know, rinse and repeat 779 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 2: the same meals. So I reckon in terms of an 780 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 2: overall spend for the supermarket for a week, there's three 781 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: of us, and I reckon we would be about four 782 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 2: hundred dollars a week, Yeah, including the food bag. Including 783 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,720 Speaker 2: the food bag. Yeah, and then but it also depends 784 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 2: I do that we get the four person thing so 785 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: that there's one left over, there's a portion leftover which 786 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: I'll take for lunch next day. They're smart, that is smart, 787 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 2: but you know, often would approve she'd approve of that. 788 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: But then but then you know, it still gets a 789 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 2: bit to tell you what the old lunchtime expense is. Like, 790 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 2: lunch is minimum twenty like twenty bucks, it's like trebled. 791 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 2: It's crazying in town. I would say, it's crazy. It is, 792 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 2: that's right. 793 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: Do you imagine winning lotto? And if so, how much 794 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: do you imagine winning? 795 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 2: I don't because I don't think I've ever had a 796 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 2: lot of tickets, do you know, I wouldn't even know 797 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 2: how to play lotto. I wouldn't know what to do. 798 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 2: I wouldn't know as do you call it like as 799 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: like a triple dip or something. Now, Yeah, because we're 800 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 2: just two guys here have never booked. Yeah, it has 801 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: a hardy aliver and romantic and I do imagine winning it, 802 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 2: even though I don't buy tickets, you see, that's it's 803 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 2: my cheap No, I never I never even think about it. 804 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 2: I think because so, my my dad is an accountant, 805 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 2: my mum is a mathematician. My granddad or my grandparents 806 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 2: are both like really serious mathematicians, which I think means 807 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 2: that everyone in my family has always had a really 808 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: rational approach to things like a lot of tickets and 809 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 2: they're like, wow, no, statistically, you're not going to win anything, 810 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 2: so you just what you're just freshering money away if 811 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: I were to win. I think that that old cliche 812 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 2: with wealth is that it gives you options, right, and 813 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 2: that you know, having having a few million bucks, say 814 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 2: it's five or ten million bucks now up your sleeve 815 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: means that you might have a few more options about 816 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 2: future choices. And so one thing I think about is 817 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 2: like we have a big mortgage, and you know, these 818 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 2: are very tenuous times in media, and I'm acutely aware 819 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 2: that media, even at the best of times, is the 820 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: sort of industry where your fortunes change on a dime. 821 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 2: It's kind of like being an athlete that and I 822 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: know that maybe sounds over the top, but and that 823 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 2: you're in one day and then you go on the next. Right, 824 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 2: and you know, my attitude is like make haywhile the sunshines. 825 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 2: If you can try and pay down some of that mortgage, 826 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 2: that's great. And if I would to somehow come into 827 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,399 Speaker 2: several million dollars in years to come, well, that will 828 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 2: give me options for the future where maybe I wouldn't 829 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: feel compelled to work six days a week, and maybe 830 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 2: I would feel more empowered to go and do something 831 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 2: else if I wanted to do something else. But it's 832 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 2: the options that it had given me, rather than anything 833 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 2: you'd spend it on. As such, I think, I just, 834 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 2: I know it's so boring. I think I just I 835 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 2: honestly would just pay off the mortgage. Maybe I get 836 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 2: a new car, or like I get a new second 837 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 2: hand car, you know, I get a RelA over the top. 838 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: So look, last question and it is kind of a 839 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: tough one, but it's an interesting one in that I 840 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: like to give everyone the opportunity to be the prime 841 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: minister for a day or even. 842 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 2: More than that. 843 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,879 Speaker 1: Let's say non coalition government. You've got real power here 844 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 1: and the cabinet scared of you. Yeah, you can get 845 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: your rob while doing basically you can get any policy 846 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: across the line you want. Is there something that would 847 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: be your number one priority to try and address, you know, 848 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: the big problems in New Zealand, some of the things 849 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: that I know you're passionate about, you know, socially inequality 850 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: and those kind of things. 851 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 2: I think, for me it is education. And I know 852 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,839 Speaker 2: that people go on about that and it sounds kind 853 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: of all hoity toity and high and mighty. I mean, 854 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 2: I think education in New Zealand is facing massive problems 855 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 2: at the moment. I also think that it's not something 856 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 2: we talk about enough when we talk about the kind 857 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 2: of inequalities in life and things. And I'm someone who 858 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 2: thinks that you should be rewarded for taking chances and 859 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 2: seizing opportunities in life. I think it's really clear that 860 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 2: not all New Zealand kids have the same chance I 861 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 2: remember reading this report from KOI II a couple of 862 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 2: years ago, the Center for and form Futures at Orkin University, 863 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 2: you know, Professor Sir Peter Glakman, And one of the 864 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 2: things they suggested was that schools in New Zealand and 865 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 2: perceptions around schools dictate heaps when it comes to housing 866 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 2: prices and class and the opportunities that people have. And 867 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 2: they question what might happen if you were to poor 868 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 2: resources into those poorer schools in New Zealand and make 869 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 2: the schools that people don't really want to send their 870 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 2: kids to at the moment, make those the most desirable 871 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 2: schools in New Zealand. And I don't know, maybe that's 872 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 2: pie and the sky stuff, but I do think that 873 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 2: we massively underappreciate just how important those formative years are 874 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 2: in kids' lives. And I know you're friendly with economists, 875 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 2: Cameron Bagri. He has this line, you know what is 876 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 2: the number one economic indicator in New Zealand And today 877 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 2: for the New Zealand of fifteen or twenty years from now, 878 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 2: and it's education. I just totally totally agree with that, 879 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 2: and I think at the moment we're facing massive problems 880 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,800 Speaker 2: in that front. So I think, to answer your question, 881 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 2: anything we can do to improve the opportunity, especially for 882 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 2: people who you know are from more disadvantage backgrounds, to 883 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 2: an absolutely world class education in New Zealand is the 884 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 2: best way to progress us. Well. Sounds like a great plan. 885 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 2: We're going to leave it there. Thanks very much, Jack, 886 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 2: Thank you. Great to talk, No, great to chat. Thanks 887 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 2: lenne Chez. 888 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If 889 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch, drop me a line 890 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: at Liam dot Dan at nzme dot co dot nz 891 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: and you can read more from me at mzidherld dot 892 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: co dot MZED. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and 893 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: sound engineer Leane McDonald. Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or 894 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday.