Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Communities around
Speaker 2: the country are waiting with baited breath for news about
Speaker 2: major infrastructure projects, ones that are set to cost a
Speaker 2: lot of money. The Government's expected to announce the future
Speaker 2: of inter Islander's Cook Straight ferries this week, after the
Speaker 2: three billion dollar mega ferry contract was canned last year
Speaker 2: due to significant cost blowouts. Meanwhile, a reporter has revealed
Speaker 2: a lack of confidence in a French contractor's forecasts for
Speaker 2: the five point five billion dollar city rail Link in Auckland.
Speaker 2: The company has execs flying out this month to address
Speaker 2: those concerns. There's apparently a fifty percent likelihood the November
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five completion date will be met later on
Speaker 2: the Front Page. Transporting New Zealand's policy and advocacy lead
Speaker 2: Billy Clemmens is with us to discuss why the industry
Speaker 2: is on tenter hooks over the upcoming decision around the
Speaker 2: Cook Straight ferries. But First Public Transport Users Association chairperson
Speaker 2: Neil Robertson is with us to discuss the City rail link.
Speaker 2: Neil what have we heard about the state of Auckland's
Speaker 2: City rail Link.
Speaker 3: The City rail Link is always a little bit of
Speaker 3: a worry because it's always there's always some concerns about
Speaker 3: budget overruns and the time it takes to actually get
Speaker 3: the thing finished. You know, when will it be actually
Speaker 3: finished and will be finished on time? And I think
Speaker 3: Auckland is a really keen to get this thing up
Speaker 3: and running and get to use it and also get
Speaker 3: to use the rest of the railway system without all
Speaker 3: the disruptions and things that go with that. I think
Speaker 3: there's a lot of conjecture at the moment as to
Speaker 3: whether it's going to be a kind of over budget.
Speaker 3: But Shawn sween you always warned us that once the
Speaker 3: whole deal was done and built, it was a lot
Speaker 3: of the other little infrastructure that goes into the tunnel
Speaker 3: that it can actually cause problems, which is what happened
Speaker 3: in the Crossrail problem project in London, where the project
Speaker 3: was finished on time, on budget, but all the extra
Speaker 3: sit signaling and wiring and whatever else that they required
Speaker 3: in there actually took it way off budget and way
Speaker 3: over time. So there is some anxiety about that at
Speaker 3: the moment.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, well, a press release from CRL just
Speaker 2: a few days ago said critical rail network upgrades being
Speaker 2: delivered before CRL opens in twenty twenty six. So it
Speaker 2: does sound like it's still convinced of this twenty twenty
Speaker 2: six completion date. Is that a pipe dream?
Speaker 4: Though?
Speaker 2: At this point?
Speaker 3: Do you think, Well, they actually can't tell you for
Speaker 3: sure because they have us think that. I think it's
Speaker 3: a call it a P fifty or something, which means
Speaker 3: that it's fifty percent chance that it will be open
Speaker 3: actually on time on that time, And I think that's
Speaker 3: about as much as they can give you at the moment.
Speaker 3: It could run a little bit over that, but it
Speaker 3: might actually might actually make it. Yeah, why has.
Speaker 2: It taken so long for this one project to be built?
Speaker 2: Like nearly a decade under construction for three point five
Speaker 2: kilometers seems a bit ridiculous, doesn't it.
Speaker 3: It is an awful long time for a short There's
Speaker 3: a couple of things too. That one is the lack
Speaker 3: of a skill in New Zealand. We don't have a
Speaker 3: pipeline of these sort of projects going through the New
Speaker 3: Zealand system, and so we actually have to import a
Speaker 3: lot of expertise and we have to sort of innovate
Speaker 3: a little bit with various other people. So there's a
Speaker 3: lot of people who are sort of learning to get
Speaker 3: to work together. But the other thing was COVID actually
Speaker 3: did actually take quite a bit out of this project
Speaker 3: and caused lots of delays. COVID actually was quite disruptive. Otherwise,
Speaker 3: it's actually come along quite smoothly. I've actually walked through
Speaker 3: it myself and seen it, and it is a good
Speaker 3: I have done a good job of it. It's a
Speaker 3: great tunnel.
Speaker 2: Because of the City rail Link, Auckland's rail network will
Speaker 2: be closed for ninety six days in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: starting this month, across the entire summer period. Does that
Speaker 2: feel like a bit much?
Speaker 3: Yeah? It does, and it feels like it's been going
Speaker 3: on forever. The narrative is that the Aukland rail system
Speaker 3: is going to be rebuilt because it hasn't been touched
Speaker 3: for many, many years. It's actually not altogether true, because
Speaker 3: the entire system has got new sleeper's, new rail, new ballast,
Speaker 3: new signals. What is really happening in reality is that
Speaker 3: the trains that they have for the Auproand rail system
Speaker 3: actually require a higher standard of track than New Zealand
Speaker 3: has had in the past, and so what Kyrail have
Speaker 3: had to do is to increase the standard of the
Speaker 3: track to be able to take the trains that we
Speaker 3: use in Auckland without causing too much damage to the
Speaker 3: railway lines. If the line is not properly drained and
Speaker 3: kept even and a level in all places, and the
Speaker 3: railheads ground down with a grinder, they will have a
Speaker 3: problem called rolling contact fatigue. And I don't know if
Speaker 3: you remember, but back in about twenty twenty one, I
Speaker 3: think it was the system actually found that out and
Speaker 3: that's why they had to replace virtually all the track
Speaker 3: in Auckland, or not all of it, but a lot
Speaker 3: of track in Auckland. Because you get rolling contact fatigue
Speaker 3: on your track, you have to replace the line. So
Speaker 3: they're actually that's what they're doing, is they're rebuilding the
Speaker 3: standard of Auckland so that we'll guard against rolling contact fatigue.
Speaker 3: Another solution would have been to actually have had trains,
Speaker 3: perhaps like the Wellington system, which actually don't need this
Speaker 3: high level of standard, and then we'd have less of
Speaker 3: the disruption. The disruption has actually sort of been compounded
Speaker 3: because it's you know, they learned about the rolling contact fatigue.
Speaker 3: Latterly they've replaced all the tracks, so we had a disruption.
Speaker 3: Then now they're going to have to go back and
Speaker 3: do it all again properly, so that it's actually is
Speaker 3: their of mitigation against that problem, far more than any
Speaker 3: any other city in any other part of the world
Speaker 3: that has had to put up with. But hopefully if
Speaker 3: they do do it all, and they do do it
Speaker 3: properly and they keep the maintenance up, Auckland will have
Speaker 3: a first class railway.
Speaker 2: And presumably it's going to be quite hot over the
Speaker 2: summer period as well, when we know what happens when
Speaker 2: the tracks get hot.
Speaker 3: If they do this maintenance properly, there will be less
Speaker 3: problems with heat buckling, and so that should actually mitigate
Speaker 3: a lot of that as well. One of the things
Speaker 3: that we found in Auckland is it that you know,
Speaker 3: there seem to be problems when there was unpredicted problems,
Speaker 3: things like points failures because they got some shonky equipment. Also,
Speaker 3: the wind blows a little bit too much and then
Speaker 3: we get a shortening out of some of the wires
Speaker 3: and things, and these are the sort of things that
Speaker 3: they really have to guard against and they've really got
Speaker 3: to put more time and effort into actually getting up
Speaker 3: and running properly. And so you know, again, all I
Speaker 3: can say really is hopefully they will, because they haven't
Speaker 3: to date, but hopefully they will, and hopefully all these
Speaker 3: things will be mitigated. But it's an awful lot to
Speaker 3: ask of the Aukland people. My concern always is how
Speaker 3: this will affect patronage on public transport, because public transport
Speaker 3: users obviously want to have good quality public transport and
Speaker 3: don't want to be forced back into using cars. And
Speaker 3: one of the things that people don't realize actually thirty
Speaker 3: percent of our population actually rely on public support. That's
Speaker 3: the young people, the elderly, disabled people and people on
Speaker 3: low incomes, and there are a lot of people who
Speaker 3: actually don't like to drive as well. So without a
Speaker 3: good public transport system, you're actually forcing people into a
Speaker 3: car dependent kind of a transport system. And that's not
Speaker 3: what we want. We want to have good public transport
Speaker 3: and it should be made available and usable as much
Speaker 3: as possible. And these these disruptions are executively the antithesis
Speaker 3: of that.
Speaker 1: We need money will help us pay the ring. Customers
Speaker 1: not coming here because they're not coming. No matter how
Speaker 1: much it's been you know, twenty thousand on promotion, two
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand on promotion. People are not coming. You
Speaker 1: usual heard no noise. He's going to get worse.
Speaker 2: Well, the CRL is costing billions of dollars in businesses
Speaker 2: in Auckland's CBD have been affected. And it's only again,
Speaker 2: like I say, three point five kilometers. By comparison, Sydney
Speaker 2: built a sixteen kilometer twin tunnel under its harbor in
Speaker 2: just seven years. So do you think this CRL is
Speaker 2: going to be worth it in the end.
Speaker 3: Oh, the CRL will be worth it in the end.
Speaker 3: As I say, in New Zealand, we don't have the
Speaker 3: same sort of level of expertise because we're not doing
Speaker 3: it as commonly as other people do. They're businesses that
Speaker 3: were affected that that was a debut. All of those
Speaker 3: businesses should have actually been compensated, and that should have
Speaker 3: been front loaded into the cost of the whole deal
Speaker 3: because they just came in and they started disrupting all
Speaker 3: these businesses and the businesses had no comeback. But ultimately,
Speaker 3: when it is I honestly believe that it'll come into
Speaker 3: its own and people will probably forget about the price.
Speaker 2: Well changing tax slightly. But there's been a lot of
Speaker 2: headlines in recent weeks about NZTA wanting to see councils
Speaker 2: hit new revenue targets for public transport. Some councils have
Speaker 2: suggested that that could see fees rise seventy percent in
Speaker 2: some areas. What's happening here and are those fair rises justifiable?
Speaker 3: No, fair rises are never justifiable. You've have to have
Speaker 3: a look at what public transport is there for. As
Speaker 3: I say, it's there actually is an absolute service for
Speaker 3: those that need it, but it's also there as a
Speaker 3: service to the public, and it's also there to actually
Speaker 3: get people out of cars, to reduce congestion on the roads.
Speaker 3: It's actually there to actually reduce greenhouse gases. It's actually
Speaker 3: there to actually provide a healthier way of getting about
Speaker 3: the city. And as soon as you actually start to
Speaker 3: actually put targets in the farebox, you're actually going to
Speaker 3: become counterproductive. If you want to probably earn a little
Speaker 3: bit more money, maybe reduce the fear slightly and you
Speaker 3: might get a little bit more patronage and therefore you
Speaker 3: might get a little bit more money. You increase the
Speaker 3: farebox take and you start getting less passengers and you
Speaker 3: just can't get beyond that. You know, there's only so
Speaker 3: much you can actually take through the farebox of public
Speaker 3: transport before you actually are starting to just sort of
Speaker 3: disincline people to use it, and then you're going to
Speaker 3: get the offshoots of greater congestion, less productivity due to that,
Speaker 3: more road damage. It's a silly game to play. Basically,
Speaker 3: public transport should be as free as possible and we
Speaker 3: should be encouraging as many people to use it as possible.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us now. New Zealand is finally expecting
Speaker 2: an announcement about the future of its Cook Straight ferries
Speaker 2: to discuss, we're joined now by Billy Clemens, Transporting New
Speaker 2: Zealand's policy and advocacy lead. First off, Billy, when news
Speaker 2: broke that Nicola Willis was canceling that mega ferry contract,
Speaker 2: what was the industry's first response, the.
Speaker 4: Position of Transport in New Zealand and our road freight
Speaker 4: company members was that the government made the right decision
Speaker 4: to terminate the Iris mega ferries project. Look, it was
Speaker 4: definitely a tough call and only some really significant sunk
Speaker 4: costs involved, but what we'd seen in that project was
Speaker 4: just a series of cost blowouts, and if anyone's interested,
Speaker 4: I really encouraged them to check out the time frame
Speaker 4: put out by the government guarding that Irex projects. You know,
Speaker 4: to start in November twenty eighteen with an estimated price
Speaker 4: of you know, seven hundred and seventy five million, although
Speaker 4: that's you know, business case figures can can fluctuate a bit,
Speaker 4: but then to end up in February twenty twenty three
Speaker 4: or at the end of the project closer to three billion.
Speaker 4: I think it was just the fact that unfortunately that
Speaker 4: project had sort of lost its way. I think that
Speaker 4: the cost blowouts were continuing, and you know, there's there's
Speaker 4: the guvernment was getting advice from Treasury and Ministry of
Speaker 4: Transport that there were serious concerns around the management of
Speaker 4: the project and whether it could be effectively delivered, and
Speaker 4: so I think that that was the right decision. And
Speaker 4: also I think that the road freight industry had been concerned,
Speaker 4: you know, from the beginning of the project that it
Speaker 4: was spending a lot of money on two very large vessels,
Speaker 4: but ultimately when you've only got two operating, unlike the
Speaker 4: three that we've got at the moment, that introduces a
Speaker 4: sort of risk to resilience, Whereas if one of those
Speaker 4: vessels needs to go out for scheduled maintenance or an
Speaker 4: unscheduled event, that really only leads you with one vessel operating.
Speaker 4: So that was another concern that our members had, as
Speaker 4: well as the management of the project and the overall cost.
Speaker 2: So there's an announcement due this week on the ferries
Speaker 2: project by the government. You're hoping for more than two.
Speaker 4: I think that that would be optimal from from our position. However,
Speaker 4: there's obviously currently two services operating across the strait, and
Speaker 4: so our position has been looked. We're not locked in
Speaker 4: particularly to one particular decision. I mean, whether it's a
Speaker 4: service still operating as an SOE or you know, support
Speaker 4: for another private operator coming in. Our primary concerns that
Speaker 4: look so, so long as there are multiple vessels operating,
Speaker 4: from our consideration, you know, from our position, we'd really
Speaker 4: like that to be several vessels at least operating on
Speaker 4: a competitive service, so that we avoid a situation we
Speaker 4: end up with a monopoly across the strait. Because we
Speaker 4: all know that in that monopoly situation, you can end
Speaker 4: up with higher prices in a less satisfactory service for
Speaker 4: businesses and consumers.
Speaker 2: In the year it's taken for the government to decide
Speaker 2: on a cheaper alternative. Art has run aground. Ken we
Speaker 2: Rowl's chairman retired early and there have been calls for
Speaker 2: Willis to resign. Do you think it's good enough that
Speaker 2: we've had to wait a year for an alternative?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've certainly got some sympathy for those voices saying
Speaker 4: it's been a long time. However, overall we're reasonably satisfied
Speaker 4: with the process that the government's gone through. I think
Speaker 4: it getting that independent Ministerial Advisory group with some pretty
Speaker 4: smart commercial operators there to provide some good solid advice.
Speaker 4: But the government also asked Ministry of Transport to go
Speaker 4: and do some substantive advice sort of looking at the
Speaker 4: long term requirements across the Strait that we're able to
Speaker 4: contribute to. So I think that, you know, whereas it
Speaker 4: has been a delay and there has been some stress
Speaker 4: involved for our members crossing the Strait and you know,
Speaker 4: wanting to support their staff and members operating moving live
Speaker 4: stock across the Strait for example, that hasn't been ideal.
Speaker 4: I think it is appropriate that the government's taken some
Speaker 4: time to make sure they get this decision right, and
Speaker 4: we're really hoping that when we get this announcement that
Speaker 4: the government's going to be able to have a pretty
Speaker 4: firm action plan in place so that we can get
Speaker 4: these vessels operating as soon as possible, because I think
Speaker 4: it was appropriate that some time was taken and that
Speaker 4: some good advice was obtained.
Speaker 3: As the government committed to rail and able ferries, and.
Speaker 5: That's something that we'll work through. There's a whole bunch
Speaker 5: of options on the table. The Minister of Advisor and
Speaker 5: Group has given advice to the government about procurement and
Speaker 5: will work our way through that in due course.
Speaker 2: Do you think the first will let you.
Speaker 5: Not to It's not a conversation we've got into. There's
Speaker 5: a Minister of Advisory Group we put in place as
Speaker 5: soon as we came to power. The report's been generated
Speaker 5: and given to us at the end of last week.
Speaker 5: That needs to be digested by the shareholding ministers. But
Speaker 5: what you can be assured about is that we're going
Speaker 5: to get the right ships on the cock straight ferry.
Speaker 2: Deputy Prime Minister and New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters.
Speaker 2: He let it slip that the government will decide on
Speaker 2: the ferries by today. I guess that's a bit of
Speaker 2: a relief. And also he's been a long advocate of
Speaker 2: making sure that those fairies continue to have rail enablement.
Speaker 2: That's a relief, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think from our perspective, this issue of rail
Speaker 4: enabled fairies which sort of allows them to you know,
Speaker 4: rail those rail wagons to be effectively driven straight onto
Speaker 4: vessels versus rail compatible that situation, where are you going
Speaker 4: to you get rail wagons taken off their tracks and
Speaker 4: loaded on to ferries. So look, I think that from
Speaker 4: an overall supply chain perspective, it it is important to
Speaker 4: see rail compatibility. I think that Transport and New Zone
Speaker 4: has been less concerned about rail enablement simply because that
Speaker 4: does add an element of cost to a project. And
Speaker 4: you know, we're our viewers. So long as you've got
Speaker 4: some rail compatibility and the ability for rail to continue
Speaker 4: to play the important role that it does, particularly around
Speaker 4: you know, bulk cargo and right, that isn't time sensitive.
Speaker 4: And I think we've heard some reassuring comments from the
Speaker 4: government about the fact that they will continue to be
Speaker 4: some rail compatibility, if not rail enablement.
Speaker 2: The Prime is so yesterday didn't really reveal any more details,
Speaker 2: but he did say that the option or the announcement
Speaker 2: will be cheaper than Labour's i REX project. Are you
Speaker 2: satisfied with whatever the government's decided to do a It'll
Speaker 2: be a good decision and not one that's been done
Speaker 2: on the cheap and we'll have to replace sooner rather
Speaker 2: than later. I suppose if that's the case, would you
Speaker 2: be happy with that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Frankly, we're going to have to wait and see
Speaker 4: with the announcement. I think that you know what we
Speaker 4: will be focused on, will be holding the government to
Speaker 4: account on is look, is this going to deliver a safe,
Speaker 4: resilient service that still ensures competition across the Strait so
Speaker 4: you don't hit up with that monopoly operator. Yes, So
Speaker 4: we'll wait and see along with our members and other
Speaker 4: supply chain partners, and we'll certainly be holding the government
Speaker 4: to account on how they deliver the project, because it
Speaker 4: is it's really essential. I mean, it's thirty billion dollars
Speaker 4: of for eighty year, equivalent to about seven percent of
Speaker 4: new Zealand's GDP, so it's essential there's an action plan
Speaker 4: for how these new vessels are going to be rolled out.
Speaker 2: Well, the Cook Straight is essentially an extension of State
Speaker 2: Highway one and Hay and it's really important not only
Speaker 2: to get people across from one island to the other,
Speaker 2: but freight.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Look, look we've been saying this a lot. You know,
Speaker 4: our chief executive Dom Classie, it seems like he's been
Speaker 4: asked for comment on the ferries almost as much as
Speaker 4: he is on some traditional roading issues this year. You know,
Speaker 4: it's a big deal and I think that you know, yeah,
Speaker 4: whether you're a passenger and you're using that service or
Speaker 4: whether you're someone who's relying on getting the ninety three
Speaker 4: percent of goods in New Zealand transported by road, it's
Speaker 4: really essential. I fig that what we've been hearing from
Speaker 4: some of our operators with particular concerns of those transporting
Speaker 4: livestock because obviously that's particularly sensitive cargo and if you
Speaker 4: end up with delays there then you can end up
Speaker 4: with some real animal wealthier risks and also operators are
Speaker 4: carrying you know, refrigerated cargo are the time sensitive stock.
Speaker 4: It really starts to impact our members's road freight operators.
Speaker 4: You know, truck drivers can only works a certain number
Speaker 4: of hours per day and per week. Soon as you
Speaker 4: end up with the delay and they're parked up, it
Speaker 4: means that essentially hit the d allowed working hours, so
Speaker 4: you have to provide for relief drivers and all that
Speaker 4: just results in delays and costs for consumers that no
Speaker 4: one wants to be dealing with.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Billy, Thanks.
Speaker 4: So much, Chelsea.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front
Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 2: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.