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Speaker 1: Let's talk about what's up with Air New Zealand. They

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Speaker 1: are ditching their carbon reduction targets, so they're going to

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Speaker 1: withdraw from a science based target's initiative that they have

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Speaker 1: only been in for two years now. They plan to

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Speaker 1: cut carbon intensity twenty eight point nine percent by twenty thirty.

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Speaker 1: But now the airline says we're not going to do that.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to get our new fuel efficient planes

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Speaker 1: until later, and the affordability of alternative fuels is also

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Speaker 1: an issue, so it's off the table. So to talk

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Speaker 1: about this, I'm joined by Sam Dean, who is a

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Speaker 1: principal scientist for Climate from newha Sam, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, Andrew Margot, it were.

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Speaker 1: You surprised at this or was it writing pretty much

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Speaker 1: on the wall really because of many reasons?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean many reasons. I think reducing emissions in

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Speaker 2: aviation is one of the biggest challenges. You know, they

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Speaker 2: don't have many choices. They're fundamentally their business is about

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Speaker 2: flying planes and as they as they openly said, they're

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Speaker 2: dependent on a whole lot of things that are out

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Speaker 2: of their control. With new planes, whether they're available to

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Speaker 2: buy and access to buy a fuel that are cheap

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Speaker 2: enough rate that they can actually run their business economically.

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Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is that New Zealanders

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Speaker 1: still want to fly. New Zealanders still want to get

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Speaker 1: on a plan, and they want to go to Tuscany,

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Speaker 1: and they want to go all over the world. And

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Speaker 1: they have not They have not stopped their travel bug

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Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form. And Air New Zealand

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Speaker 1: have responded to to the demand, which is a mandate,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of like a mandate for Air New

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Speaker 1: Zealand to go out there and burn.

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Speaker 2: Air New Zealand's business is about flying people and the

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Speaker 2: more people that fly, the more money it will make.

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Speaker 2: They are talking about their intensity, so you know, how

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Speaker 2: much is you know per person traveling? What what what

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Speaker 2: that that that efficiency is and how much emissions are

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Speaker 2: associated with it? But yes, they're if they grow more

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Speaker 2: people flying New Zealanders. We're a small country at the

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Speaker 2: you know, trade is important to us, travel is important

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Speaker 2: to us, into connectivity is important to us. But that

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean we don't need to reduce emissions, right, So

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Speaker 2: it's going to if we don't do it in aviation,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're going to have to do it in

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Speaker 2: other sector of the economy.

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Speaker 1: We have a unique thing quite right, air New Zealand

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Speaker 1: and New Zealanders have no other options. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you're in Croatia, you can get somewhere on a train

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Speaker 1: and it's powered by electricity. But we are on three

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Speaker 1: islands four if you count the Chathams, right in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the ocean. The only way where you can

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Speaker 1: really get out and about and do this stuff isn't

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Speaker 1: a plane.

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Speaker 2: I agree it's very difficult for New Zealand, but you

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Speaker 2: know that's so reducing. It's good that the New Zealand

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Speaker 2: is being upfront and saying they don't see how they

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Speaker 2: can meet those targets at the stage they're being honest

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Speaker 2: and upfront and so flying remains an unfriendly climate activity,

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Speaker 2: but we're going to have to reduce some missions somehow.

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Speaker 2: So it just puts pressure on us to reduce them

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Speaker 2: in other ways. And there are things in transport, you know,

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Speaker 2: where we have technologies like electroveahles on the shelf that

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Speaker 2: are you know, only marginally more expensive than petrol vehicles

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Speaker 2: than things like that, where we can make reduct productions

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Speaker 2: and emissions.

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Speaker 1: True, it would help if we finished off the electrification

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Speaker 1: of the main railway, of course, which we started and

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Speaker 1: then stopped and have never finished. But there we go.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing, completely air. New Zealand has talked

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Speaker 1: a lot about wanting to become more sustainable. They hired

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Speaker 1: a chief Sustainability officer, They've got former Climate Change Minister

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Speaker 1: James Shaw who's clipping the ticket as an advisor. But

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Speaker 1: as you said, the entire model is antithetic to ever

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Speaker 1: achieving that. So you know, there's a there's a bit

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Speaker 1: of virtue signaling in the whole thing, don't you think,

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Speaker 1: wells I mean, in the.

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Speaker 2: Long term, they may well have options to reduce emissions.

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Speaker 2: I guess they're signaling out to two thousand and thirty.

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Speaker 2: They don't see themselves achieving the target they previously set.

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Speaker 2: But this is a this is a big question. I

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Speaker 2: feel like this is the decade, right, this is the

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Speaker 2: time where the rubbers hitting the road, where these great

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Speaker 2: ambition that people have put down on the table reducing

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Speaker 2: emissions are coming up against the reality of how hard

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Speaker 2: that's going to be. I mean, New Zealand has made

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Speaker 2: in a commitment under the Paris Agreement, and we don't

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Speaker 2: expect to meet that as the reduction of emissions in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand. So we're the only way to do that

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Speaker 2: then is to buy offshore and that's going to be

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Speaker 2: hideously extensive. We don't want to do that.

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Speaker 1: As a pression problem here as well as a precedent though.

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Speaker 1: This is quite awkward really because other companies will look

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Speaker 1: at what Air New Zealand has done and possibly feel

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Speaker 1: emboldened by that pullback and says, well, look, any Zealand's

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Speaker 1: not doing it, why should I?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's it's anyw Zealand wants to. I

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Speaker 2: think Any New Zealand is genuine in its desire and

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Speaker 2: commitment to reduce its carbon intensity. It's saying it doesn't

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Speaker 2: have pool available and so caskid you can't do so

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Speaker 2: economically at the moment in the short next five to

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Speaker 2: six years. I think we have to keep telling the

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Speaker 2: story that in other parts of the in an economy,

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Speaker 2: we do have options to reduce emissions economically and can

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Speaker 2: do so. And yes, there is a risk, as you highlighted,

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Speaker 2: that people see this as you know they can't do it.

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Speaker 2: Why should I work in anyone? It's all hopeless. I

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Speaker 2: don't think we can look at it that way. I

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Speaker 2: think there are real opportunities. It's just going to it

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Speaker 2: just was always the case that aviation was extremely difficult

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Speaker 2: and it's probably the last problem we're going to be

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Speaker 2: able to solve because electric planes are not really yet feasible.

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Speaker 1: Sam, Thank you so much. Thank you for your work.

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Speaker 1: Sam as the principal scientist for Climate for Climate at NEEWA.

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