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Speaker 1: The information provided in this program is of a general

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Speaker 1: nature and is not intended to be personalized financial advice.

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Speaker 1: We encourage you to seek appropriate advice from a qualified

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Speaker 1: professional to suit your individual circumstances. And your documentary takes

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Speaker 1: you inside the minds of misfits who unleashed a commercial

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Speaker 1: assault on Low Earth orbit. Ashley Vance explains why he

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Speaker 1: spent years documenting the space race.

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Speaker 2: All right, I haven't really told this story yet, but.

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Speaker 3: Five four three two one you've.

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Speaker 4: Heard about the billionaire space Race. Shit, this isn't that movie.

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Speaker 1: This HBO original documentary Wild Wild Space follows these slightly

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Speaker 1: cowboy personalities behind the punishing and once private pursuit to

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Speaker 1: defy the laws of physics. It focuses on a few characters,

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Speaker 1: Astra's Chris Kemp, Planet Labs Will Marshall, and Rocket Labs

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Speaker 1: Peter Beck.

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Speaker 5: There's f bombs.

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Speaker 2: Let's start a company.

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Speaker 5: Best competition.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to conclusive billions of dollars at stake, and

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Speaker 1: more importantly, the shape of our society.

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Speaker 4: And whoever controls space may very well control the future

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Speaker 4: of humanity.

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Speaker 1: It's impressive innovation, but enough to unseat even the most

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Speaker 1: optimistic among us. HBO gave me express written consent to

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Speaker 1: use this trailer. The whole documentary was inspired by Ashley Varance,

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Speaker 1: who spent years following Rocket Lab and Astra behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: I have a chat to him just after the premiere.

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Speaker 1: This is a bit different to my typical CEO interviews.

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Speaker 1: It's just two business jo list on other ends of

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Speaker 1: the Earth, bonding of their coverage of space companies.

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Speaker 5: It's good to chat.

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Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 5: And thank you again for letting me watch in early screening.

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Speaker 1: It was It was so fun to watch early and

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Speaker 1: I loved it as much as I thought I would.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 5: It was really a good job.

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Speaker 2: Oh thank you. Yeah, well, it was lots of effort.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear that.

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Speaker 1: When I was kind of my first question, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: talk about the effort you spent.

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Speaker 5: Was it six years writing the book and then filming this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was trying to think. I mean the first

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Speaker 2: time I ever. Somebody reminded me last night we had

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Speaker 2: this premiere in New York City. You know, I make

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Speaker 2: this television show called Hello World for Bloomberg, and it

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Speaker 2: was actually the very first season of shooting the show.

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Speaker 2: I went to see Peter back in Rocket Lab in

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Speaker 2: Auckland in twenty fifteen, and so I had no idea

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Speaker 2: I was going to do a book or a documentary

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Speaker 2: at that point. But we do have so some of

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Speaker 2: the I mean, we have some archival footage, but otherwise,

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Speaker 2: like the early footage that you know I kind of

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Speaker 2: shot with the camera would have been twenty fifteen. And

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Speaker 2: then you know, it was around twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen

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Speaker 2: when I really could feel the momentum picking up and

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Speaker 2: definitely knew there was a book there and started realizing,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'd done this biography on Elon Musk and

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Speaker 2: all these people sort of wanted to be the next

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Speaker 2: Space Act, the next Elon. So I had really good access.

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Speaker 2: Everybody wanted me to come by, and I realized I

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Speaker 2: had such good access that I should start trying to

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Speaker 2: see if I could sneak cameras in there, because it

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Speaker 2: was it's like really rare to catch some of these

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Speaker 2: companies at such an early stage and to be invited,

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Speaker 2: you know, into the Michigan control and to watch the

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Speaker 2: launches and all that stuff. And so yeah, so anyway,

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Speaker 2: it's at least six or seven years incredible.

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Speaker 1: Well I was going to ask that anyway, I mean,

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Speaker 1: why not do this on Elon Musk. Why focus on

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Speaker 1: the smaller satellite low Earth orbit players when there are

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Speaker 1: you know, massive multibility it's playing in this game like

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Speaker 1: Elon and formally Bezos two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for a whole bunch of reasons. Everyone. I done

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Speaker 2: the biography on Elon and.

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Speaker 5: We didn't go down so well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we hadn't always had this relationship, so it wasn't

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Speaker 2: really it wasn't really I had some PTSD and I

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Speaker 2: really want to spend more time on him. And then

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Speaker 2: also there's been kind of a few SpaceX. There's quite

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Speaker 2: a few SpaceX films on Netflix and elsewhere, and and

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Speaker 2: then you know, it really was It's just what I

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Speaker 2: got interested in. I mean, I just could feel all

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Speaker 2: this activity that same story. Like, you know, I'd covered

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Speaker 2: space quite a bit for a while, and I always

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Speaker 2: had rocket people reaching out to me, We've built a rocket,

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Speaker 2: and then you go see it and it's nothing. And

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Speaker 2: then I started hearing rumors about this guy in New

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Speaker 2: Zealand and no offense. I was just skeptical. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's it's usually something that comes out of like the

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Speaker 2: United States or Russia, someone with a history of doing

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Speaker 2: the stuff. And so the first time I went there,

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Speaker 2: I had very low expectations, and I was shocked. You know,

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Speaker 2: there was three rocket bodies on the on the shop floor,

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Speaker 2: and he clearly knew what he was doing, and everyone

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Speaker 2: was speaking so highly of them, and so I just

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Speaker 2: kind of caught the cut the bug, and I thought

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Speaker 2: it was a really fascinating story. I thought everybody hears

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Speaker 2: about the billionaires all the time. There was just this

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Speaker 2: raw sort of underbelly, underdog energy to the people that

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Speaker 2: I was I was covering, and so I enjoyed all

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Speaker 2: of that. And then you know, in fairness, like I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is hindsight speaking, but like I worked out pretty

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Speaker 2: well as far as like Peter at Rocket Lab is concidered.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people always talk about Branson and Besis. I

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Speaker 2: mean Elon, Yes, like SpaceX is dominant, but but Peter's

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Speaker 2: like the only other game in town. So if you're

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Speaker 2: if you're doing like a space story of Branson or Bezos,

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Speaker 2: I think you're probably in bad shape.

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Speaker 1: Nohing's taken that you were under You had kind of

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Speaker 1: had underwhelming thoughts on our country initially, I think most people.

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Speaker 1: Do you even see in the documentary about New Zealand

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Speaker 1: there's like nothing there and it out by.

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Speaker 5: The time.

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Speaker 2: That was specifically about the cargo.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it's nothing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I if that came off of the entire country,

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Speaker 2: I feel bad. I was trying to I was trying

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Speaker 2: to kind of like put Peter's place in the country.

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Speaker 2: When was the first time I came to New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: You know, my mom's Australian and I've gone to Australia

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Speaker 2: every year of my life for many, many, many years.

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Speaker 2: We had a huge family there, but I never went

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Speaker 2: to New Zealand all those times. I would always be

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Speaker 2: in Sydney just seeing family. And so I really went

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Speaker 2: to New Zealand for the first time for this project. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen would have been my first visit. And then

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Speaker 2: over the course of doing the book in the film,

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Speaker 2: I think I went it's got to be like seven times.

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Speaker 1: I think, Wow, over the course of the filming and

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Speaker 1: doing the research for the book. That's a long way

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Speaker 1: to come that many times, youde I did.

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Speaker 2: I mean one of my favorite trips, you know, A

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Speaker 2: lot of times I would go see Rocket Lab at

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Speaker 2: their headquarters and things like that, and then I'm a

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Speaker 2: tech journalist, I would go see I think I've written

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Speaker 2: like quite a lot of stories about New Zealand tech

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Speaker 2: companies for somebody who's not from the country. But one

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Speaker 2: when I really was like getting ready to do the book,

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Speaker 2: I we spent this amazing month with my family. I

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Speaker 2: tried to like retrace Peter's you know, childhood more or

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Speaker 2: lesson so I wanted to see everywhere he'd grown up,

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Speaker 2: where he'd gone to school. So we went to the

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Speaker 2: South Island and started at christ Church and just did

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Speaker 2: this big road trip already around the country and then

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Speaker 2: went in a little bit to Queenstown and then back

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Speaker 2: out and all the way around. And so I went

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Speaker 2: to dun Eden and in Viicargo, all these spots that

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Speaker 2: have been part of Peter's life, and then and then

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Speaker 2: obviously Auckland as well, and so yeah, I was really

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Speaker 2: memorable trip. I mean that was my family was ready

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Speaker 2: to move there, and we probably we would have been

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Speaker 2: a good choice to do that, I think so. But

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Speaker 2: it was one of my favorite things of doing this

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Speaker 2: project was getting to know the country. I love it.

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Speaker 1: I love that well, you are welcome back anytime, and

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Speaker 1: on behalf of all of us, thank you for covering

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Speaker 1: our tech companies.

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Speaker 5: We kind of push above our weight on that front.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, really do. And then you know, just what

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Speaker 2: I've seen in the last few years is crazy. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I guess you know, in large part thanks to Rocket

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Speaker 2: Labs success, I'm quite convinced after the United States, New

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Speaker 2: Zealand has more aerospace startups than any other country, which is, like,

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Speaker 2: it is pretty remarkable feat you heard it.

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Speaker 1: Here first, but that is I mean, I think what

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Speaker 1: is so incredible about this whole documentary. I mean and

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Speaker 1: your book obviously as well, but the excess that you

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Speaker 1: got and these companies, I mean, we're both filmed inside them.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of commercial sensitivity on those factory floors, right,

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Speaker 1: like we feel ending there's more you're told that you're

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Speaker 1: not allowed to film than you are filmed than you

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Speaker 1: are allowed to film.

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Speaker 5: So how did you while you were filming this entire documentary?

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Speaker 1: How did you navigate that to ensure you got enough

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes footage?

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Speaker 2: It was really tricky. And if I go on too large,

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Speaker 2: just tell me to shut up. But I mean you're

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Speaker 2: totally right. I mean, I mean some of this is

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Speaker 2: like this very serious legal stuff. There's this you know,

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Speaker 2: United States law it TAR, which is a restriction around

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Speaker 2: defense related technologies, and they take it very seriously. Even

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Speaker 2: if you accidentally leak some image, it's deemed important by

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Speaker 2: the government. I mean, like the person who took the

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Speaker 2: images going to jails and you're, you know, possibly are

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Speaker 2: getting some horrible fine, and so is the company. And

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Speaker 2: so Rocket Lab fell under those same restrictions. I was

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Speaker 2: lucky companies like rocket you know, some of the companies

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Speaker 2: in the film are just at different stages of their journey,

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Speaker 2: and so Rocket Lab was a little bit trickier. You

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Speaker 2: have to be quite careful about where you put the camera. Astra,

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Speaker 2: as people will see in the film, was both like

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Speaker 2: at a younger stage and also a bit more freewheeling

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Speaker 2: about some of these things than the other companies, and

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Speaker 2: so they let me film everything. I mean, I was

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Speaker 2: in the Michigan control when the rocket's blown up and

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Speaker 2: they're trying to tell everyone that it was okay, talking

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Speaker 2: to their investors and things like that, and so but

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Speaker 2: that's really what I knew I had something special. Is

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Speaker 2: because this is every other space story you usually see

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Speaker 2: unless it's a movie where they can dramatize things. It's

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Speaker 2: a very positive story about everything going right and our

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Speaker 2: best and brightest doing these amazing, courageous things, which is true.

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Speaker 2: But you know, there's a lot of heartache and drama

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Speaker 2: and things going wrong on the way to that point,

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Speaker 2: which you never get to see because obviously nobody wants

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Speaker 2: to show their worst moment, and so that was kind

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Speaker 2: of my quest, was to show what life was really

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Speaker 2: like at the end. We did have to have a

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Speaker 2: lawyer look over It's like almost like nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with the story. It's just did you show this rocket

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Speaker 2: from this angle where some overseas adversary could blow it

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Speaker 2: up and figure out how they build their motor And

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Speaker 2: so you just have a lawyer go over that stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I made I did make that agreement with the companies.

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Speaker 2: Obviously nothing to do with content or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: But let's all not go to jail because of this picture.

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Speaker 2: So that's how we solved it.

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Speaker 5: That would kind of be a bad end, right.

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Speaker 1: I think One of my favorite moments, and a couple

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Speaker 1: of them, were following Chris Kemp around and just how

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Speaker 1: forthcoming he was to you, even kilt playing up for

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Speaker 1: the cameras right, like eating the lead paint. And one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite, which was kind of a very quick

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Speaker 1: moment with him on the phone too, I'm assuming his

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Speaker 1: partner and he said something like, baby, this is going

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Speaker 1: to make our lives so much easier. It was like

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Speaker 1: course personal moments, and I found that was quite a

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Speaker 1: contrast to the light that you saw either Will Marshall

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Speaker 1: or Peter Beckett. You know, they were very much at

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Speaker 1: work and wanted to be scientists and engineers. Do you

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Speaker 1: feel like through the content you were able to capture

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Speaker 1: and the access that you got from the different characters,

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Speaker 1: it allowed you to show the entirety of each of them.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, again the companies were at different stages.

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Speaker 2: Halfway through the movie, all these companies went public and

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Speaker 2: then all the lawyers show up and have their own

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Speaker 2: thoughts on how you should do these things, which was

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Speaker 2: the pain if I'm totally honest. You know, Will Marshall,

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Speaker 2: who I adore and have spent all these years writing about,

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Speaker 2: was much more reserved and has a very interesting social life.

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Speaker 2: He lives in a communal house in Silicon Valley and

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Speaker 2: has for many years. They would not let us film,

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Speaker 2: their Will would not. The rest of the house said

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Speaker 2: it was okay, and Will wouldn't. And then you know, Peter,

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Speaker 2: as long as i've known him, has I think it's

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Speaker 2: like part Peter in part maybe some Kiwi sensibilities. There's

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Speaker 2: just a bit more reserved. Doesn't want to come off

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Speaker 2: as like a show off. And so Peter was great

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Speaker 2: and Rocket Lab was fantastic. During Feeling, they just were

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Speaker 2: again a bit more. You know, he didn't want to

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Speaker 2: show us like his home life. He is concerned about

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Speaker 2: his privacy and things like that. Chris had none of

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Speaker 2: these concerns. So so I think, you you know, I

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Speaker 2: think it's pretty revelatory about their characters. You can tell

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Speaker 2: in the way we structured the film that we had

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Speaker 2: some of this stuff with Chris that you're it wasn't

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Speaker 2: just that we weren't getting it from the other people.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to get that from anyone. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: was like a once in a lifetime opportunity where this

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Speaker 2: person was really allowed, really allowed us to see everything

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Speaker 2: to do with the company and their life and everything

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Speaker 2: like that. So yet no, I mean, I think you're right,

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Speaker 2: and we just tried to navigate it the best we could.

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Speaker 2: I think you get a pretty good feel for Peter,

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Speaker 2: and I think there's a reason there's sort of like

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Speaker 2: less footage of planet in the film. And subsequently after

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Speaker 2: they saw the film, now I'm getting all these notes

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Speaker 2: they're like, oh, I wish we'd participated a lot more

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Speaker 2: than we did and and all that. So I was like,

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Speaker 2: I told you, so.

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Speaker 5: That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I've never written a book ashually. I know you've written many,

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Speaker 1: and I've read them both, love them both. But I

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Speaker 1: can imagine that all of the detail that goes into

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Speaker 1: a book would be a lot more interesting and kind

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Speaker 1: of gives you the ability that kind of platform to

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Speaker 1: put a lot more detail into it and kind of

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Speaker 1: explain things and people better. And then I know what

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Speaker 1: it's like to create videos, and it is sometimes very

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Speaker 1: hard to create a story arc, a beginning, middle, and

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Speaker 1: then it looks easy when somebody watches the final product,

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Speaker 1: but how it is so hard. And I can only

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Speaker 1: imagine how much vision and detail you actually did walk

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Speaker 1: away with from these years filming.

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Speaker 5: So what when you first.

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Speaker 1: Went into this process of making this documentary, what were

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Speaker 1: the parts that you were absolute on ensuring that had

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Speaker 1: to be in there? And what were things that you

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Speaker 1: wish could have been but just just fit in the

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Speaker 1: final story.

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Speaker 2: All right, I haven't really told this to yeah, but

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Speaker 2: here's the full I mean, when I set out to

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Speaker 2: do this, I was like, I'm going to do a

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Speaker 2: book and a documentary at the same time. I write

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Speaker 2: a lot of articles and have done these other books

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Speaker 2: that at the end other people sometimes want to buy

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Speaker 2: your material and turn it into a documentary. And I'd

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Speaker 2: been making my own television show, Hello World, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, you know what, whatever, I'm gonna try to

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Speaker 2: do this. It's gonna be hard, but let's see if

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Speaker 2: I could make make a film. And I really it

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Speaker 2: was not a film at the beginning. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: make a series, and so I wanted to do this

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Speaker 2: episodic series. And so really for from like twenty seventeen

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Speaker 2: to two thousand, so I raised some money from three

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Speaker 2: wonderful people who helped me get on this journey, and

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Speaker 2: and so I filmed all over the world. I mean

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Speaker 2: we filmed. There's a lot of footage from much earlier

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Speaker 2: days with Rocket Lab and in New Zealand. It's not

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Speaker 2: in the film. I was in Ukraine, I was in

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Speaker 2: French Guiana, I went to India and Russia, and so

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Speaker 2: I wanted to tell this episodic series where you could

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Speaker 2: see maybe rocket Lab would be one episode and it

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Speaker 2: would be sort of like this history of that. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do the kind of collapse of the Russian

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Speaker 2: space program, the European space program flies out of French Cana,

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Speaker 2: sort of center it on these sites that are quite

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Speaker 2: exotic and unusual and tell stories from there. I've bit

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Speaker 2: off more than I could chew, is what happened, and

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Speaker 2: sort of ran out of money at various points during

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Speaker 2: this exercise, and really it was just too big for me.

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Speaker 2: And so I'd gathered these hundreds of hours of footage

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Speaker 2: then brought on this wonderful team Ross Kaufman as the

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Speaker 2: Academy Award winning director of this film. Jake Callahan was

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Speaker 2: the producer, and so they saved me. They went through

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Speaker 2: all the footage sort of like centered on the stories

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Speaker 2: that they liked the best and felt that we had

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Speaker 2: the strongest footage from and then we filmed for another

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Speaker 2: couple of years after that to round everything out. So

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Speaker 2: sorry it's long answer, but it was a very long journey.

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Speaker 5: Well, I had absolutely no idea that again.

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Speaker 1: I mean, all I'm thinking, Ashley, is there's so much

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Speaker 1: vision there still to be used, Like you've got number two, three, four,

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Speaker 1: five in the day, Surely there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: I mean. The problem was I didn't know what I

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Speaker 2: was doing, and I stretched myself too thin, and so

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Speaker 2: some of these stories went pretty deep. Like we'd Astro

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Speaker 2: was right in my backyard. It was easy for me

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Speaker 2: to go there every week twice a week for a

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Speaker 2: long period of time. Things like Ukraine. We got amazing

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Speaker 2: footage I went to. I was the first Western journalist

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Speaker 2: I think probably still the only who ever went into

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Speaker 2: the old Soviet ICBM factory and dinepro with the camera.

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Speaker 2: I went to these hid rocket test sites in the

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Speaker 2: forest with the camera. We just didn't have enough as

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Speaker 2: the money started running out, it was just I was

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Speaker 2: getting spread too thin and so so yes, I'm still

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Speaker 2: kind of like wondering what to do with with that

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Speaker 2: footage we filmed with this company, spin Launch that's making

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Speaker 2: a space catapult, which sounds insane, but they want to

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Speaker 2: They want to throw rocks to the edge of space

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Speaker 2: and I yeah, So they built this huge centrifuge and

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Speaker 2: it spends at this incredible speed and then you you

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Speaker 2: throw the rocket to the edge of space, so they

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Speaker 2: sort of use the centrifuge to get over the gravity

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Speaker 2: part that requires so much fuel, and then the rocket

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Speaker 2: just lights up at the very end. But I film

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Speaker 2: with them when they were like twelve people in a

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Speaker 2: secret room in Silicon Valley and all this stuff. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: I'll have to like figure out something to do with

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Speaker 2: all this one day. But I just have to have

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Speaker 2: to get this one done first.

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Speaker 1: Can you please at least just make us a promise

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Speaker 1: that we will see it someday, because that that just

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Speaker 1: sounds incredible.

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Speaker 2: No, I fully intend to. And then, you know, some

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Speaker 2: of this will just be great because you I did

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Speaker 2: film with a number of subjects, and you kind of

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Speaker 2: get to see who's made it and who has it,

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Speaker 2: and then and then go back and I'll have some

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Speaker 2: good early days stuff, hopefully on some success stories here.

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Speaker 1: But as you know, this industry that we cover moves

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Speaker 1: so quickly, and you were covering up the years, how

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Speaker 1: did you know at the point to stop? I mean,

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Speaker 1: even as you say they went public at some point,

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Speaker 1: it almost felt like that may have been a natural

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Speaker 1: point to stop.

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Speaker 5: But you kept filming for years after that.

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Speaker 1: How did you know when to kind of title together

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Speaker 1: and how did you ensure that it was still relevant

382
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Speaker 1: when it was released because new things had all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, no would be a strong strong word gids. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know there were these big moments. I mean, you're

385
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Speaker 2: trying to find a like rocket Lab was sort of

386
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Speaker 2: no problem because they had reached this level of success

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Speaker 2: where I felt pretty confident. But once we'd been at

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Speaker 2: it for a while, I felt quite confident that they

389
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Speaker 2: were going to be around, they were going to be

390
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Speaker 2: doing interesting things. They were okay. Planet was quite similar

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Speaker 2: that they had built this giant constellation of satellites. We're

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Speaker 2: making money and we're doing okay. Some of these other

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Speaker 2: rocket companies, that's you know, I was filming with a

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Speaker 2: bunch of them, and they you try to find the

395
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Speaker 2: best character from the story and then you're kind of

396
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Speaker 2: waiting for some points where you could you could put

397
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Speaker 2: a flag in the sand. Astra was problematic, you know,

398
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Speaker 2: COVID came along. That's a lot a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: The original idea was to sort of Astra's whole goal

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Speaker 2: was to build a rocket faster than anybody ever had

401
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Speaker 2: and launch it, and you know, if that had gone

402
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Speaker 2: swimmingly well, then you would have you would have that

403
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Speaker 2: moment and maybe that's that's it, You've done it, and

404
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Speaker 2: for that for their story. But that didn't happen. It

405
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Speaker 2: took many, many years, and and then even after the

406
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Speaker 2: rocket had succeeded, it started to fail. And so you

407
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Speaker 2: have to pick these spots in the Astra. Just this morning,

408
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Speaker 2: you know, they'd basically gone bankrupt and now took the

409
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Speaker 2: company private, and that just happened today. We kind of

410
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Speaker 2: had a sense this was coming, and so it's it's

411
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Speaker 2: one of the final notes in the movie. But it

412
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Speaker 2: was hard anyway. I don't have a good answer, because

413
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Speaker 2: you just have to you have to pick a moment.

414
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Speaker 2: I mean, the story is not going to end, and

415
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Speaker 2: so maybe there will be wilder, wilder space coming. I

416
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Speaker 2: don't know. But I felt like we did get to

417
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Speaker 2: some spots where you clearly had seen the trajectory of

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Speaker 2: rocket Lab and Astra and planets, and there was enough

419
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Speaker 2: to kind of give people a feel for why they're

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Speaker 2: important and interesting.

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Speaker 1: Certainly, one of the most interesting parts was the fragility

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Speaker 1: of the Astra, you know, trying to sell the idea

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Speaker 1: with vistas and to even call them off, I things

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Speaker 1: went wrong. I mean that was such incredible insight. What

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Speaker 1: did that show you about the fragility of this industry?

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Speaker 1: Obviously you would have known about that anyway, have been

427
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Speaker 1: covering it. But is it anything that it showed you

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Speaker 1: that even surprised you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I mean for people who don't know you,

430
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Speaker 2: it's it's like the most as far as like building

431
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Speaker 2: a product for a company goes is the most binary

432
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Speaker 2: sort of thing the whole world gets to see, like

433
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Speaker 2: did you do a good job or a bad job?

434
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Speaker 2: Are you going to survive or not? I mean, either

435
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 2: it gets the space that does what it's supposed to do,

436
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Speaker 2: or usually it blows up. And so it's this is

437
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Speaker 2: not like some movie you're putting out or a product

438
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 2: or a new kind of food, where you have some

439
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 2: months or years to see if it's if people like it.

440
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 2: So yes, I mean you know, it's this very visceral,

441
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 2: brutal business. And so seeing that up close, was it

442
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 2: was dramatic?

443
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's is such a good movie.

444
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you usually yeah, you just usually don't get

445
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,239
Speaker 2: to see this other other side of it. And so yeah, no,

446
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean it's one of the parts. I

447
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 2: like the other part that's crazy is for the entire

448
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: history of the space industry as it was, there was

449
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 2: governments doing these things and so to the to the

450
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 2: point that, like you would have a rocket blow up,

451
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: it was sort of a blow to your national pride.

452
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: But if the government wanted to keep funding the program,

453
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 2: they were going to keep funding the program, even when

454
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 2: we got to the very earliest days of commercial space.

455
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 2: Even still today, SpaceX is massive, but they're a private company,

456
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 2: and they're a private company for a reason, which is

457
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: you don't necessarily want the average Joe investor, retail investors

458
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 2: who don't kind of understand the complexities of this industry

459
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: maybe judging you on each launch because when a rocket

460
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: blows up, it looks really bad. But there is method

461
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 2: to the madness. I mean, SpaceX has proven out that

462
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: you can blow a lot of these up and learn

463
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: from them and just try to move quick, which is

464
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 2: what Astro was hoping to emulate, is you don't treat

465
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: this thing so precious, you don't waste all this time

466
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 2: you build it, you learn from it and sort of

467
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 2: get to the end goal faster. That way. All these companies,

468
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 2: like we mentioned, went public in the middle of this

469
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: because they were chasing this free money that was available

470
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 2: during this spack and I just thought it was like

471
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: a Faustian bargain, like, yes, you're getting the money, but

472
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: now you have all these retail investors city there, and

473
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: every time you launch, your stock price is going up

474
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 2: and down forty to fifty percent, and so it was

475
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: a different watching that. I don't we get into that

476
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: in the film. I just don't know if people who

477
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: are not in the space industry will understand what a new,

478
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,239
Speaker 2: different era that is.

479
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: I do definitely want to talk to you about the

480
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: sort of grips of governments that these companies don't operate them,

481
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: because I thought.

482
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 5: That was really interesting.

483
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: But you mentioned SpaceX there, which is very clearly the

484
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: dominant player.

485
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 5: I think we all know that.

486
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: What do you think from doing the research for years

487
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: and getting to know all of these companies and sort

488
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 1: of the people and leaders behind them.

489
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 5: What do you think it takes to win in the

490
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 5: space race.

491
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 2: It's really fascinating, you know. It's like, why so SpaceX

492
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: and Blue Origin started almost the exact same year, and

493
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos had way more money than Elon did when

494
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: the companies started Jeff Back's Blue Origin. Both companies were

495
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 2: undoubtedly filled with very smart, ambitious people. You know, SpaceX

496
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: has launched I think over four hundred rockets, has for

497
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: rocket families, has put is the world's leading satellite manufacturer,

498
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: has put people in the space. Blue Origin has never

499
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: flown a single satellite into orbit, yet it is here

500
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: more than twenty years later, hoping to do it for

501
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 2: the first time, So like, why why does that happen?

502
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 2: I mean, that's very dramatic difference. Rocket Lab started at

503
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: almost the same time as a lot of American satellit

504
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: A rocket companies, had a little bit less money than

505
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: a lot of them had no you know, most of

506
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: its employees, because of these itar restrictions, had never worked

507
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: on an actual rocket, where some of these other companies

508
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: had SpaceX veterans working for them, had had veterans from Boeing,

509
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: Lockeed Martin who had done this before. And Rocket Lab

510
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 2: beat them all and continues to beat them all. I mean,

511
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: it's a fascinating question. The best thing I have come

512
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 2: to is that I was surprised. I think I underestimated

513
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: the effect that CEOs, the very top leadership seems to

514
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: have on the culture of the company. In my head,

515
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: I always pictured that an organization that got to any

516
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: sort of size, the CEO is something of like a cheerleader,

517
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 2: like I don't know, out telling the company story doing

518
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: these things, but there's clearly there's to me now, there's

519
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: clearly something there where their character appears to sort of

520
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 2: like ripple down through the company. That's the only other

521
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: way I can explain it. Honestly, rocket Lab is like

522
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: an inexplicable story. If you if you were to place

523
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: all ten of these companies that started at a similar

524
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: time and imagine that rocket Lab was the one that

525
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 2: rose out, nobody really would have taken that bed, I

526
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: think except for Peter Beckett and his friends.

527
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: Well, without giving too much away, that's kind of the

528
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: point that you conclude the film on that it's Alon Muskin,

529
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: Peter Bacon. You say it with a most surprised at

530
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: the end, which it's almost like that's not the conclusion

531
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: that you expected to find out when you begin the

532
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: whole proceeds.

533
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone would, and I think I'm you know,

534
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I've covered this more than most people have,

535
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 2: and I think definitely the you know, the average person

536
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: does not realize this at all. They usually kind of

537
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 2: like just think it's Elon and then they always think

538
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: it's like they're like, oh, but Jeff Bezos has a

539
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: rocket company. They're like, it hasn't flown, you know, rocket,

540
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: They've done some tourists stuff. But but yeah, to me,

541
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 2: that is it. That's it. It's a brutal business. It's

542
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 2: very hard, there's almost no room for failure. And so

543
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: both those companies now have a huge lead over everybody else.

544
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 2: I think Blue Origin will finally be a competitor because

545
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 2: they have so much money and now apparently, you know,

546
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: getting close on this big rocket and so so maybe

547
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: we'll have three and there are some new rocket startups

548
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: that are coming, so we'll see how this all shakes out.

549
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: But but you know, it's a it's a dunting lead.

550
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: We probably do not need a world with like eight

551
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 2: rocket companies. We probably need a world with two and

552
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: maybe three.

553
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: On governments and organizations, I think NASA was painted in

554
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: quite an interesting light. I can't remember who said it

555
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: in the film, but someone says that it's almost like

556
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: just a bureaucratic organization that's looking at some of an

557
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: ice cream.

558
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: Company, the self licking ice cream. That's how it stays alive.

559
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was so great. That was such an incredible comment.

560
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: But then it's you also kind of contrast that with

561
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: the only real success which actually breed a lot of

562
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: these ideas and these dreams and these entrepreneurs was this

563
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: kind of free wheeling Silicon Valley startup within NASA.

564
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 5: So can you talk me through your approach.

565
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: And perhaps even how careful you kind of had to

566
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: be in or not in the way that you painted NASA.

567
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I I tried to tell the truth,

568
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: and I mean I was careful, but I wasn't trying

569
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: to massage the situation. R I think I think NASA. Look,

570
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: it's a fantastic organization with this incredible track record in

571
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: many many, many, many many many ways. It seemed better days,

572
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: and it's still doing things. I just think it has

573
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: no business doing, like building rockets. I think it should

574
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: be focusing more on much missions that are deep into

575
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: the solar system science that other people are not going

576
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: to fund, really use their expertise for that, you know.

577
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: To your point, Well, the guy who made the quote

578
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: about the self looking ice cream code. Was this Brigadier

579
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: General Pete Warden who ended up in charge of this

580
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: Silicon Valley NASA Center, NASA AMES. And you know, he's

581
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: a one of a kind. He's an iconoclassed. He's working

582
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: in a bureaucratic organization but hates to be doing that

583
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: and is trying to reshape it. And so he brought

584
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: all these young people in and so, yes, those young

585
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: people ended up creating some of these satellite I rocket companies.

586
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: I and NASA helped in that. You know, they had resources.

587
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: But you know, this did not happen at other NASA centers.

588
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: This this sort of happened because Pete Warden set it

589
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: up for success. And so you know, I don't sit

590
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: Pete's left NASA AMES and it's kind of gone back

591
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: to its regular scheduled program. And yeah, I think it's

592
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: a big question for the United States. It's a strange organization.

593
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: It's a great organization. It's it's funding is so tied

594
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: up with the government and the whims of senators who

595
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: have jobs in their states that the you know, there

596
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: is no sort of pure motivation to pursue space and

597
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: do it cost effectively.

598
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: And what your docker really shows is that it necessary anymore, right,

599
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: because you know there are these private operaters that are

600
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: doing it and don't don't need bureaucrats, and they actually

601
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: now have the government in a way in their hands

602
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: because all of those three companies, Planet Labs, Astra and

603
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: Role Lab all has military contracts. In the doco, you

604
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: call it this grand ragime change. I wonder how and

605
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: it kind of leaves you feeling quite uncomfortable, and I

606
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: wonder if that was the aim of kind of how

607
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: you wanted the viewer to feel, because I think even

608
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: us having to do Algerils, we have to really be optimists.

609
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: But it even makes you know, unseats the most optimistic

610
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: among us.

611
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 5: Really.

612
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I still am pretty optimistic about all

613
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: this stuff and mostly come at it from that light.

614
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: There's things where I have no problem with companies doing this.

615
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at the cost of a

616
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 2: SpaceX rocket or a Rocket Lab rocket versus what NASA

617
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: or the military contractors produced, to me, that is just

618
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: a no brainer. I mean, you know they're full of

619
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: It's just I think it's borderline criminal the way they

620
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: go about the spending on on these things, and I

621
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: think the companies have shown just how just how bad

622
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: they are, So that part is fine. You know, this

623
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: this next question of like space is this shared good.

624
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: Should companies even be like divvying up this real estate

625
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: up there putting their satellites in. I think it's obviously inevitable.

626
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: I think they're providing valuable services. I think the governments

627
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: moved very slowly on all this and aren't always the

628
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: best decision makers and so but you know, I mean

629
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 2: the point of the movie is less to kind of

630
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: like judge a lot of this stuff and more to

631
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: like make people very aware that space has become a business.

632
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: I think we still have this misconception of like the

633
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: space race days, that this is fully a nationalized pursuit

634
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: about science and prestige and you know the good of

635
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: humankind for exploring the universe and everything. I mean there's

636
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: a bit of that, but like it's a business. And

637
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: that was the point, is that all these moves you've

638
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: seen for all these decades are nice and all, but

639
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: it's different now. And so you know what I was

640
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: shocked by is that people don't talk about this very

641
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: much because really these decisions are being made by the companies,

642
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: and so far, I actually think it's working out okay,

643
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: But you know, people make mistakes, there's bad actors that

644
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: come along, and I don't think the public is really

645
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: aware of what's happening at all or asking any of this.

646
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: And if you look at the historical analogs, things like

647
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: social networking, a lot of that stuff got so far

648
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: before anybody even began wondering if it was a good idea.

649
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: It seemed like this was a topic worth covering.

650
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 5: You don't think we're too far gone?

651
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: Not really, I mean definitely, you know, I think this

652
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: shift has happened, but I think it was inevitable, and

653
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: I think the governments were doing the government space programs

654
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: had become so lazy and slow and sad and bureaucratic

655
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: that I think fresh blood was good here. I think

656
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: we're I think the ship has sailed. Whether this is

657
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: going to be like a commercial enterprise, yes, Do I

658
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,919
Speaker 2: think it's going to be like filled with horrible things

659
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: as a result. Not really. My biggest concern, honestly is Russia.

660
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: I think people don't pay enough attention to this. Russia,

661
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: their space program is so tied up in their national identity.

662
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: It's a very proud nation. Their space program is collapsing.

663
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: SpaceX has undercut them for all the commercial missions. The

664
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: war in Ukraine has cut off a ton of customers.

665
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 2: Their program is rife with corruption, and so I see

666
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: them as like a wildcard who they have no commercial

667
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: space startups at all, so they're not really going to

668
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: participate in this new era. And so you know what

669
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: happens to something like that, we've already seen. They shot

670
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 2: one of their own satellites down with a missile from

671
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 2: the ground, just to let everyone know they can do that.

672
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: So you know that doesn't it's something like that really

673
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: that worries me. Is just like an irrational actor.

674
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: I think that right there is the next Ashley Vanson,

675
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: Ross Kaufman, HBO original on space, and you can call

676
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: it wild and wildest space, and then the next one

677
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: wildest wildest space look for I like that.

678
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: All right? I need you're my agent. I did.

679
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 5: It happens.

680
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: It was so good to chat to you, and you know,

681
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: it's it is rare to kind of find a space

682
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: note who goes quite deep on the stuff.

683
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 5: So I loved it. And yeah, again, thank you so

684
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 5: much for sharing all of your work with us. We're

685
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 5: we're very lucky to see it.

686
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. Thank you for letting me visit your

687
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: country so much. And uh and thanks for the time.

688
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: Next time you're back, I'll show you around, just so

689
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 1: that you really don't think there isn't much here.

690
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: That it's not true. Thank you, thank you.

691
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 5: Good to meet youtally Kip

692
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 4: Back bore Dog sl