1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Prepare for a defense heavy budget come made. The government 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: is openly saying we need a massive boost to the 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: military's funding. Currently we're at one point one percent of GDP. 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: That's five billion dollars a year. We could get as 5 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: high as two. It comes as these three Chinese navy 6 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: ships conducted live firing exercises in the Tasman. Andrew Little's 7 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: the former Defense minister, Andrew good to have you on 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: the show. Good right now you are a really good 9 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: Thank you now. Judith Collins and the government they have 10 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: to be careful how they frame their response, but you 11 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: don't anymore. How serious, how significant is what they're doing 12 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: in the Tasman. 13 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. And this has been happening for a 14 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: long time China. As it has become economically more wealthy, 15 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: it's become more powerful, it's engaged in the world, but 16 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 2: it's been building as military at the same time as 17 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: well as well. It now has one of the largest 18 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: navies in the world and it's well equipped. And they 19 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: do that to project themselves and their power around the world. 20 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 2: And they're doing that in the at the moment. They 21 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: do that because they want to send the message to 22 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 2: everybody that they are here, that they're powerful and they 23 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: want to use their influence. We have to not if 24 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: we're not such a match with that, we can't be 25 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 2: We're not the size of China. We have to be 26 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: able to equip ourselves to work with others so that 27 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: we are a match for it. And we need to 28 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: make sure that our equipment is modern, up to spec 29 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 2: and works with our defensive partners, whether it's the Australia, 30 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 2: the UK, the US or whoever. 31 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: You were working on this plan that we still haven't 32 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: actually got our hands on from this government, the fifteen 33 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: year Defense Plan. What are we actually if we're going 34 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: to spend billions more, which it sounds like this government 35 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: is buttering us up for, what do we actually need 36 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: to buy? 37 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: Yes, I think I mean our maritime capability is obviously 38 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: central where you know we're in the south South Pacific. 39 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: We've got to be able to get around. We have 40 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: a number of ships at the moment that we can't 41 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: creue properly. We have to think about what we want. 42 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: That probably means new and different ships. The other thing 43 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: is remote technology, so being able to fly craft that 44 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: are pilot listen, what have you to get around our region? 45 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: To do the surveillance sort of the sort of stuff 46 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 2: that our poseidon piates are doing, but at a simpler 47 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 2: level and in a way that is sort of more 48 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: disposable because you know, there's not carrying any people on it. 49 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: I think a lot of that remote technology is kind 50 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: of where the future, as other defense forces around the 51 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: world are equipping themselves with that sort of stuff, So 52 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 2: it's going to be the new generation technology stuff that 53 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: we need to be looking at. 54 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: Realistically, is anyone going to invade New Zealand? I mean 55 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: we would be helping others to fight at sea, really, 56 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't we? That would be our purpose. 57 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I mean two things. What, we've never 58 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,119 Speaker 2: been able to defend ourselves on our own, We've never 59 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: been in that position. We work with others to do that, 60 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: but there is an expectation that you know, we are 61 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: doing something in fact doing enough to provide some level 62 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: of defense. And then the other thing is that we 63 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: work with others to defend them and other parts of 64 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: the world. You know, we've supported Ukraine with training their troops. 65 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: We've been stationed in the Middle East for donkeys years 66 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: as a peacekeeping force. We do all those sorts of things. 67 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: So there's an expectation that we make a contribution around 68 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: the world to uphold the liberal, social democratic sort of 69 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: values that we've got. 70 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 1: Just finally, I think it's a little odd that we 71 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: have a problem in New Zealand with leasing our allies, 72 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: as in the United States come here with their warships 73 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: that are nuclear powered. Is that something you think we 74 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: need to look at. I mean, if we're going to 75 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: double our defense budget, surely looking at that would be 76 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: on the table. 77 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think. Well, I don't think there's any 78 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: appetite in New Zealand for any kind of nuclear capability. 79 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: It's not something we've been part of, and the realities, 80 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 2: although there is nuclear deterrence around, we haven't been part 81 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: of it. We've argued strongly about the morality of that. 82 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: We are very good at supporting others and engaging ourselves 83 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: in conventional warfare called conventional combat. I think that's where 84 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: our priority needs to be and we don't lose anything 85 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: by maintaining our nuclear free stance. We work closely with 86 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: the US and others, and even if Australia do give 87 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: the nuclear submarines, then you know we'll continue to work 88 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: closely with Australia. 89 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: All Right, Andrew, thank you very much for your time. 90 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: Great to have you on the show. Andrew Littleby, former 91 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: Defense Minister. For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen 92 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: live to news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, 93 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.