WEBVTT - Chainsaws vs scalpels: How to do DOGE properly 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:05.600 This week on the Business of Tech powered by two 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:10.720 Degrees Business, we're talking DOGE, the Trump Administration's Department of 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:15.400 Government Efficiency. It's tearing through government agencies, laying off tens 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:19.479 of thousands of public servants, and dismantling entire departments such 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.040 as US AID. It's all in aid off a grand 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:27.120 plan to slash the US deficit, which sees America pay 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:32.360 iwatering amounts each year to service national debt. Here's how 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:37.479 Elol Musk, doge's chief architect, describes the mission to Fox News. 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.680 Our goal is to reduce the deficit by a trillion dollars, 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.720 so from a nominal deficit of two trillion to track 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.040 cut the deficit in half to one trillion, or looked 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.440 at it in toilet federal spanning, to drop the federal 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.760 spanning from seven trillion to sex trillion. We want to 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.240 reduce the spending by eliminating waste and fort reduce the 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:01.680 spanning by fifteen percent, which seems really quite achievable. The 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:06.720 government is not efficient and there's a lot of Western frauds, 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:11.560 so we feel confident that fifteen percent reduction can can 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:16.399 be done without affecting any of the critical government services. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.199 Sounds great in theory, but critics argue that the efficiency 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.840 drive is really a thinly veiled attempt to weed out 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.400 the so called deep state that Trump believes trying to 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.040 derail his first presidency. They also claim all hurt US 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.240 citizens by radically reducing key functions like Social Security and 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.000 the National Institutes of Health. Even the Department of Education 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.360 is getting a massive cut. DOAGE claims it's amassed one 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.480 hundred and fifty billion US in savings already, thirty percent 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:51.760 of it from contract grant and lease cancellations. Musk tells 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.520 us that less than fifteen percent of the spending being 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:58.320 cut is out and out fraud. The next six to 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.400 twelve months will reveal the impact of DOGE on the 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.840 USA government and on the services that citizens enjoy, but 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.880 already governments around the world are considering their own cost 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.320 cutting drives. We got off to an early start even 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.000 before the Coalition government came into office, with labor trimming 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:20.360 public servant headcount. That's accelerated under the Coalition, which spending 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.360 cuts to programs across the board with a similar aim 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:28.080 to cut national debt. We've also got David Seymour's Ministry 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:33.960 of regulation tasked with identifying and cutting superfluous rules and regulations. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.239 Let's be fair, doge is something else entirely with Elon 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:43.000 Musk's team of young geeks given unprecedented access to government records, 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.520 it's ripe for conflicts of interest as well, with musks 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:51.799 companies SpaceX and Tesla having received billions in contracts and 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.200 subsidies from the US government. But I think most people 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.400 have some sympathy for the idea of smaller government and 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.639 cutting red tape and using technology to gain more visibility 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.200 into government spending and procuring services in a smarter way. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:12.040 So how could we do doge properly here in New Zealand. Well, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.200 I assembled a super smart panel of people to try 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.760 and find out. Joining me this week are Rob Campbell, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.440 Ben Reid, and Paul Quickendon. 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:21.880 Now. 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.960 Rob Campbell has been a board director and chair of 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:30.240 companies like SkyCity, Tourism Holdings and Somerset Group, as well 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.080 as sitting on the boards of government agencies like the 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:38.280 Environmental Protection Agency and tefatu Ura Health New Zealand, where 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.360 he was sacked as board chair in February twenty twenty three. 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.920 For a LinkedIn post, he wrote that criticized the National 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.240 Party's policy on the Three Waters reform. If anyone knows 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:54.240 where the inefficiencies in our largest government agencies are, it's 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.120 probably rob Ben Reid returns to the show the christ 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.760 Church Futurist and tech can sultant. He's given a lot 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.080 of thought to how technology can play a role in 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.440 creating a more efficient and fairer government in everything from 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:13.680 policymaking to electronic voting, and Paul quickened In rounds out 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.800 the panel. Paul's the chief commercial officer and head of 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:21.039 the New Zealand operation of Easy Crypto, the largest locally 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.080 owned crypto exchange, which last month was acquired by Australian 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.840 owned swift FX. Paul thinks a lot about how decentralized 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.560 technologies like the blockchain and smart contracts can be applied 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.880 to the big problems facing society. So, without further ado, 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.120 here's my chat with the Doge Panel this week on 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:50.839 the Business of Tech. Rob Ben Paul, welcome to the 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.240 Business of Tech. Thanks so much for coming on. You're 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.240 Jordder so like me, you've probably been watching with a 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.880 mix of horror, fascination and sort of amusement. What's been 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.359 going on in the US with DOGE, the Department of 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:11.080 Government Efficiency, the Elon Musk led efforts, and boy, it's 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:12.960 just amazing what's coming out every week some of the 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:17.160 things that he has done. Obviously big layoffs in some 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.080 government departments, some government departments effectively being dismantled, the likes 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:26.680 of us AID. You're seeing the United States Digital Services, 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.440 an agency that was run out of the White House 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:34.440 that's been basically absorbed into DOGE. You've got Elon Musks 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.919 essentially saying I need the source code of government to 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:39.800 do this properly. I need to get into every database, 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.320 look at every data feed to make sure that what 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.640 I'm being told about what is going on in government 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:50.000 is accurate. He's talking about magic money computers that exist 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.640 in the US government. A lot of people have said, well, duh, yeah, 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.240 that's what the Treasury and others do. They print and 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.800 manufacture money. But you've also got a vein I suspect 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.279 you agree as well. Of Look, this is actually a 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.039 useful thing to do to look at efficiency, waste, and 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.680 even fraud. And Musca said he thinks it's probably about 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.400 ten to twenty percent of its actual fraud that is 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.800 going on where they see they need to fix things. 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.200 The rest of it is inefficiency, and it's probably something 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:24.680 you can all relate to. We're all frustrated about how 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.839 slow moving and bureaucratic government can be and that is 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:34.680 leading to real problems in society, inequality, slow access to 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.479 for instance, healthcare. We've just in the last couple of 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.120 days we heard some horrific stories about people having to 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:46.080 wait for cardiograms and potentially that leading to fatal conditions. 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.119 So we know there is an efficiency, there are bottlenecks there, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.120 but really Keen, first of all, we will stell it 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.600 with you, Rob, with your extensive experience both in business 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:00.640 and obviously as the chair of Ta Fatuura for period 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:05.560 as well, overseeing huge government spending there and a big bureaucracy. 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.120 What do you make of dog and is there a 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.280 kernel of value on what they're attempting. 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:17.120 There's a kernel of value in continuously reevaluating what you're 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.200 doing to ensure that you are doing it efficiently and effectively, 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.240 whether you're in private business or government, and governments are 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:30.440 notoriously not good at this, So there's value in that. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.840 Whether letting a mad axe man into the front door 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.480 and having him roam around the government is a good 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.440 way of doing that. I'm much less convinced. I don't 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.160 think there's much to be said for the way they're 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:49.720 going about it. But that doesn't mean that there isn't 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.480 a need to have continual reevaluation of that kind going on. 0:07:53.600 --> 0:08:00.680 But as has happened here much lesser levels. The key 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:07.480 to doing any of these exercises is to understand the mechanism, 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:12.200 the model that you're dealing with. Understand what is happening there, 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.400 not just deal with it, which with the metrics which 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.760 are coming out the far end, but understand what the 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.200 model is you're working with. And if you don't do that, 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.559 you can go and roam around. Accountants to it quite often, 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.120 and just as dangerously, you can go and roam around. 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:29.560 And so we want to cut this, we want to 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.200 cut that, we want to do this. But if you 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:34.000 don't understand to come back to it, don't understand the 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.800 model of what's going on here, then you're probably going 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.360 to cause as much damage as you'll do good. And 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:41.600 I suspect that with the way they're approaching it in 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.280 the US, that's highly likely to be the case. 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.280 Yeah, And that's a big criticism of DOGE so far 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.520 is that the team members, while a lot of them 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.960 are skilled computer programmers, some of the very young, gifted 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.400 people that have come out of Tesla and other companies 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.920 like that, they sort of lack any understanding of government processes, contracts, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.960 how grants work, the actual realities of working in government. 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.559 So it's one thing to take a sort of a 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:12.520 tech focus on this, and they know how efficient tech 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.360 can be, but the actual workings of government is a 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.560 completely different thing. And without doing it in conjunction with 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.280 all those people who have that domain knowledge, I guess 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:22.320 you're going to run into trouble. 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.120 Yeah, and two steps there, Peter one, I agree with 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.439 the way you frame it that I would go even 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.920 further and say that it's not enough just to understand the 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.760 current machinery, because it's a fair bet the current machinery 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.520 is clumsy and wrong and obscuring things. You've got to 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.520 go back to that real model of what it is 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.600 we're trying to do here, How are we trying to 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.640 do it? Does that make sense? And the technology and 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.600 the accounting and everything else really follows on after that, 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.360 You know, you can send in some bright tech people. 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.160 There's not really any different descending and some bright accountants 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.720 to look at one of these things. If you really 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.679 don't understand what you're trying to achieve and have a 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.840 good model of what you try to achieve, the danger 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.720 is that you will just cause distruction, not creation. 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.280 And what's your take on Doge? Obviously you've written a 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:10.959 book last year, Fast Forward Our Tailor, which is really 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:16.559 advocating for digital first government, things like legislating full service 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.840 application programming interfaces to make government a lot more efficient 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:25.080 and equitable. What's your take on what you've seen sort 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:26.720 of unfold in the US with Doge. 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.800 Yeah, like Rob says, sort of going in there with 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.720 a chainsaw is you know, we'll wait to see how 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.400 it all turns out. But I mean I've listened. I 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.920 think the US is a very different political environment to 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.160 hear and out there are and I think what I 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:50.360 had a very interesting podcast recently where the Gray Area Podcasts, 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.760 where the speaker was basically describing the underlying political access here. 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.920 Whereas you've got status quoests who seem to think that 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:02.120 everything's fine, versus brokennests who think that everything is broken, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.920 and you have the extreme brokennest wing have now taken 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.080 hold of the leaves of power, and so really they 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.840 really didn't think it was worth fixing, if you if 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:14.560 you like, So, I think part of the strategy here 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.160 is to go in and just utterly dismantle what is there, 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.679 and it can't be any more broken than it was before. So, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.240 you know, I think that, as I say, the US 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.560 context is very different to hear it in out you know, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.079 the book. In my book, you know, it was really 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:37.120 thinking about how emerging technology can provide solutions to deliver 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:43.079 our rutcomes. And if we agree that productivity, accessibility, efficiency 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:46.679 are all outcomes of you know, horizon points we should 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.440 be aiming towards, then you know, employing some of these 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.440 modern technologies is arguably, you know, the way to achieve 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.840 that very quickly. Yeah, So look some of the ideas 0:11:57.480 --> 0:11:59.920 that I you know, I like to reimagine the state 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.880 quote and I wouldn't say that Altibor's government is broken, 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.800 but I'd say it has a whole lot of inertia 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:13.680 inside it. You have a permanent public service constitutionally, which 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:20.200 leads to almost a culture of risk avoidance and and 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:26.439 you know, reluctance to rise significant change and if you 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.040 if you think about, you know, the modern services that 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:34.120 we're that we're consuming from, you know, the frontier technology 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:38.360 firms right now, then they are all software interfaces. And 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.560 so if you could re imagine the service delivery channels 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:46.679 of government as being software and application programming interface, and 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.440 increasingly that you could have an AI agent that would 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.920 interact with government services, then I think you could probably 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.760 take out aultimate a lot of the roles that are happening, 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.640 you know, in government right now, and and actually build 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.120 of a better service outcomes there. Finally, those better service 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:07.040 outcomes is the front front loading of the whole process 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.640 that they're certainly not doing in the in the US 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:11.160 right now. 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.600 Okay, and we'll come back to some of the suggestions 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.440 you have in Fast Forward al Tara around this that 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.160 may help. Paul. You're at easy Crypto at the moment, 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:27.959 you're really passionate and understand blockchain technologies, and you're actually 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.840 running a hackathon on this particular issue. Was this sort 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.480 of inspired by Doage seeing what was going on in 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.640 the US and thinking, actually, could we do this in 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.000 a sensible way and get some of our most innovative 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.320 technologists to contribute to it. 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.679 So we wrote a series of provocations for the Hack 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.360 of Time some time ago, and at that time, the 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.760 rumors of what DOGE was going to be and what 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.320 it's turned out to be a very different and what 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.320 I mean by that, as DOGE was trying to drive 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.880 some efficiency, there was talk of what chains being embedded 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.080 in some US processes to streamline stuff and where you know, 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.960 I represent a sector that believes that blockchains do have 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.439 a role to play and some of that, and so 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.520 we write a series of provocations. But it's not just 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.360 about building government departments on blockchains and eliminating and that's 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.520 not that's not what the Hack of pons about. It 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:17.480 was just really trying to get people to think about 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.960 some real world use cases and those solutions that would 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:24.600 have meaningful value. And given you know, we all touch government, 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.160 central or local government in some way, shape and form, like, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.080 it's an easy thing for us to all from the 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.080 outside look in and go maybe we could do this 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.680 a little bit better. And you know, I think as 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:41.080 citizens were allowed to question our services are delivered to us, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.480 and I think that's part of a good robust democracy. 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.840 But we are not advocating for what's you know, the 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.080 ideologically driven stuff that's coming out of DOGE. Now, that's 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.680 that's not where we started. And you know, again like 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.000 the one that I think you know, we were faring 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.040 to around, could you run in an expense system a 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.840 government expenses a blockchain. That was just one of maybe 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:06.080 twenty five provocations to the teams. So you know, we're 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.400 just trying to get people who's great mat of stimulated 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.000 when we wrote this sometime again. 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.240 Yeah, that's great, and I'm sure that's something actually the 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:17.960 likes of Judith Collins, the Minister for Digitizing Government, is 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.080 actually going to welcome, you know, sort of innovation in 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.680 this space. But Rob, you know, you're the one who's 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.720 had the most experience actually on the inside of working 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.720 with big government departments. I think at one point you 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.640 said New Zealand health system you described as a blocked 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:37.960 digestive system, which is a nice metaphor for it. But 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.720 can you sort of elaborate on that in a big 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.520 department like that? And health is a sort of I 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.800 guess is a special case and they are working to 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.320 try and fix it. But where are the sorts of 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.400 places that you really see the inefficiency and the wastage 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.120 that just really starts to result in a degradation of 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.240 service for citizens. 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.760 Well, I think I think health was and still is 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.400 a particularly ramshackle. It doesn't really even deserve to be 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.880 called a system. It's a kind of a ramshackle assembly 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.240 of different systems. And if you take, for example, the 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.760 recent stuff about t FUTU or are trying to run 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.120 the finances on a spreadsheet, Well, actually what they were 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.760 trying to do was take a whole lot of systems 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.440 that were producing different financial information and had to assemble 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.120 it somehow had never been assembled before, and the obvious 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.240 way to assemble it was on a spreadsheet. It wasn't 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.680 that anyone had started out wanting to manage it that way, 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.800 to be fair to the people currently running that. But 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.120 the reimagining thing, it sounds a bit of a grand phrase, 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:45.000 but there is enormous scope to improve these systems. I'm 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.080 working with a small fintech setup at the moment that 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.960 has some ideas about payments and accountability and audits and 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.680 all those kind of things that could improve distribution of benefits, 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.320 for example, And there are any of these ideas around 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.680 and what there was what there needs to be is 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:08.800 an openness to consider, apply and experiment with those within 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.760 the public service, which there isn't. So what you had 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:18.600 in health was a whole lot of ideas that had 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.399 been thrown at what was when Tavardaora was formed, the 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:27.760 largest software development house in New Zealand, accumulating people who 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:33.200 were defending often incompatible projects that were working against one another, 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.600 and simply because no one had really stood back and 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.800 properly thought about what are we trying to achieve here, 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.280 what are the priorities, what are the available technologies. So 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:48.800 they were basically trying to assess various offers that were 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.040 being made to them by various other providers and then 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.679 rebuild them in some way. So it was no wonder. 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.840 It was a mess, and I think that's not uncommon. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.399 So some of that culture has to change, but I 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.960 don't really think that's all that difficult. I mean, New 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.040 Zealand does have a pretty active ecosystem of people coming 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.800 up with quite practical ideas which are not moonshots by 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.320 any stretch of the imagination, but are immediately applicable, which 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.919 could be picked up by government departments. And there is 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:24.560 a degree of sclerosis within those government departments, as there 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:29.920 is within within a number of larger private companies too. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.760 I think the cause of that is a lack of 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.720 understanding both of the models of what is being done, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:44.160 but also of the technologies at politician level, at board 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.399 member level, and at senior executive level. There are a 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.800 lot of people within the public service that understand, are 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.119 open to and would welcome innovation, but it is really 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.680 being stopped by a lack of understanding from the type. 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:58.600 In my view, I totally agree with that, and I 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.880 think what I'd also add is structurally the way that 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.720 the bureaucracy is structured into these monolithics, siloed departments where 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.240 actually a technology student will be architected with common components 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.040 across all of these and they're you know, there were 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.440 you know, there is a g CDO trying to coordinate 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.480 across all of them. But actually, you know, services like identity, 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.280 like payments would be common across the whole government platform, 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.879 and yet every individual department still operates their own to 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.920 some degree. And so, you know, I think there's this 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.040 fundamentally re architecting the bureaucracy is going to be a 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:42.359 consequence of attempting to digitize the whole government, and these 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.960 these departments are not in the mood for that right. 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.520 They operate with a with a large degree of inerture. 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.120 As I said, So, one of the considerations I would 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.480 say is why do we have permanent government departments, government agencies? 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:56.919 Why do we not just the same way as we 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.199 have an election every three years, Why don't we just 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.320 put us sinessa limit that you know, a government department 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.800 will live for five years and then it will be 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.440 recycled and shut down. And so you know, why could 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:13.200 you not actually derive some of this permanent refreshment of 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.480 your bureaucracy into some legislation. 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.320 Yeah, and you know, one of the ideas in the book, 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.160 as I said at the start Digital First, government legislated 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:27.879 full Services API. No government service can be enabled without 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.680 API implementation. And for people who don't understand what that is, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.840 this is a sort of a plug and essentially that 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:39.680 allows data to be transferred between systems in a seamless 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.080 sort of way. So, and that's something I hear a 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.000 lot across government. It is very siloed, and it's sort 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.520 of by design, partly for the reasons that I think 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.960 you've alluded to that they don't want to change, but 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.200 also citizens don't necessarily want to change. We don't even 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.399 want a digital driver's license in this country. There's a 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.639 lot of opposition to putting data all in one place, 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:02.720 even if there's a good case that it's going to 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.760 help people get more equitable access. 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.719 So my take on all of this conversation is that 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.880 it's when you are in health and you're a nurse. 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.760 You're very clear what you're doing and the goals you 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.800 know is the patient right in front of you. But 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.120 as you start to get further away your loose side 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.000 of the outcomes you're trying to deliver. It happens in 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.480 big companies. I used to work for a tower communications company. 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.960 It happens there as well, and you can get fixated 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:28.800 on your little project and your little thing and have 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.520 no actual connection to the outcome you're trying to do 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.520 the thing. The observable thing for me is that across 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.119 all of the bureocracy that is government is there's no 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:42.080 single vision or platforms. And you know, you've talked you 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:44.080 know being and I agree with some of what you said. 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.639 I may have some challenges with some others parts of 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.720 what you said, but that's okay. You know, things about 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:53.640 identity and access management, how that's done, my personal information, 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:58.400 how that is shared or not shared. Payments because it's 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.120 still about moving money and did you money around. Those 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.560 sorts of things all should be a foundation blocks for 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.719 every government department that builds on it. But that's not 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:12.840 how it's been constructed. And it's because they were organically developed, 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.359 you know, as they were digitizing. They're probably digitized at 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.480 different times. You know, I can remember before the dhvs 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.119 became an amalgamated set, like they were just hospitals, So 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:26.919 you know, they all kind of grew and then you 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.359 have such huge technology debt that trying to bring it 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.199 together what you're talking about being which is the Amazon 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:37.840 way and API first, but you had a very charismatic, 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:41.359 single leader at the top who was able to enforce 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:46.680 that stuff and doing that through a public service, that's 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:50.119 a real challenge, and you know, you almost get to 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:51.720 a point in time where you have to say, we 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.560 have to start a new we have to start with 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:56.240 some foundational building blocks and starting new. 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:58.040 I think you also have to have regard to the 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:04.040 way finance and spending ability is spread through the public service. 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:07.280 It really operates on what I've always seen is kind 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.359 of a jamjar theory where there's an appropriation of money 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.440 for a particular purpose, which is to find ahead of time, 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:16.920 and that's what's available for that purpose, and that goes 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:19.639 into that jam jar. And if you're managing a public 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:22.120 service operation, you have a whole set of these jam 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:26.040 jars which have been predetermined for you, and what you're 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:29.280 not doing is really ever sitting back and seeing where 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.040 the money would be most effectively spent, So you are 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.080 spending it out of each jar, and that does lead 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:40.359 to a kind of a very inefficient decision making system 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:42.560 as well. So my point is it's embedded in the 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:45.959 way they're financed, embedded in the way that they have 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:50.439