1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: This week on the Business of Tech powered by two 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: Degrees Business, we're talking DOGE, the Trump Administration's Department of 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Government Efficiency. It's tearing through government agencies, laying off tens 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: of thousands of public servants, and dismantling entire departments such 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: as US AID. It's all in aid off a grand 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: plan to slash the US deficit, which sees America pay 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: iwatering amounts each year to service national debt. Here's how 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: Elol Musk, doge's chief architect, describes the mission to Fox News. 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: Our goal is to reduce the deficit by a trillion dollars, 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: so from a nominal deficit of two trillion to track 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: cut the deficit in half to one trillion, or looked 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: at it in toilet federal spanning, to drop the federal 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: spanning from seven trillion to sex trillion. We want to 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: reduce the spending by eliminating waste and fort reduce the 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: spanning by fifteen percent, which seems really quite achievable. The 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: government is not efficient and there's a lot of Western frauds, 17 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: so we feel confident that fifteen percent reduction can can 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: be done without affecting any of the critical government services. 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: Sounds great in theory, but critics argue that the efficiency 20 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: drive is really a thinly veiled attempt to weed out 21 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: the so called deep state that Trump believes trying to 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: derail his first presidency. They also claim all hurt US 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: citizens by radically reducing key functions like Social Security and 24 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: the National Institutes of Health. Even the Department of Education 25 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: is getting a massive cut. DOAGE claims it's amassed one 26 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty billion US in savings already, thirty percent 27 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: of it from contract grant and lease cancellations. Musk tells 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: us that less than fifteen percent of the spending being 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: cut is out and out fraud. The next six to 30 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: twelve months will reveal the impact of DOGE on the 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: USA government and on the services that citizens enjoy, but 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: already governments around the world are considering their own cost 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: cutting drives. We got off to an early start even 34 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: before the Coalition government came into office, with labor trimming 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: public servant headcount. That's accelerated under the Coalition, which spending 36 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: cuts to programs across the board with a similar aim 37 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: to cut national debt. We've also got David Seymour's Ministry 38 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: of regulation tasked with identifying and cutting superfluous rules and regulations. 39 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: Let's be fair, doge is something else entirely with Elon 40 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: Musk's team of young geeks given unprecedented access to government records, 41 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: it's ripe for conflicts of interest as well, with musks 42 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: companies SpaceX and Tesla having received billions in contracts and 43 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: subsidies from the US government. But I think most people 44 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: have some sympathy for the idea of smaller government and 45 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: cutting red tape and using technology to gain more visibility 46 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: into government spending and procuring services in a smarter way. 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: So how could we do doge properly here in New Zealand. Well, 48 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: I assembled a super smart panel of people to try 49 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: and find out. Joining me this week are Rob Campbell, 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: Ben Reid, and Paul Quickendon. 51 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: Now. 52 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: Rob Campbell has been a board director and chair of 53 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: companies like SkyCity, Tourism Holdings and Somerset Group, as well 54 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: as sitting on the boards of government agencies like the 55 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency and tefatu Ura Health New Zealand, where 56 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: he was sacked as board chair in February twenty twenty three. 57 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: For a LinkedIn post, he wrote that criticized the National 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: Party's policy on the Three Waters reform. If anyone knows 59 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: where the inefficiencies in our largest government agencies are, it's 60 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: probably rob Ben Reid returns to the show the christ 61 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: Church Futurist and tech can sultant. He's given a lot 62 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: of thought to how technology can play a role in 63 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: creating a more efficient and fairer government in everything from 64 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: policymaking to electronic voting, and Paul quickened In rounds out 65 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: the panel. Paul's the chief commercial officer and head of 66 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: the New Zealand operation of Easy Crypto, the largest locally 67 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: owned crypto exchange, which last month was acquired by Australian 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: owned swift FX. Paul thinks a lot about how decentralized 69 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: technologies like the blockchain and smart contracts can be applied 70 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: to the big problems facing society. So, without further ado, 71 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: here's my chat with the Doge Panel this week on 72 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: the Business of Tech. Rob Ben Paul, welcome to the 73 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: Business of Tech. Thanks so much for coming on. You're 74 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: Jordder so like me, you've probably been watching with a 75 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: mix of horror, fascination and sort of amusement. What's been 76 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: going on in the US with DOGE, the Department of 77 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: Government Efficiency, the Elon Musk led efforts, and boy, it's 78 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: just amazing what's coming out every week some of the 79 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: things that he has done. Obviously big layoffs in some 80 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: government departments, some government departments effectively being dismantled, the likes 81 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: of us AID. You're seeing the United States Digital Services, 82 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: an agency that was run out of the White House 83 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: that's been basically absorbed into DOGE. You've got Elon Musks 84 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: essentially saying I need the source code of government to 85 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: do this properly. I need to get into every database, 86 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: look at every data feed to make sure that what 87 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm being told about what is going on in government 88 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: is accurate. He's talking about magic money computers that exist 89 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: in the US government. A lot of people have said, well, duh, yeah, 90 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: that's what the Treasury and others do. They print and 91 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: manufacture money. But you've also got a vein I suspect 92 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: you agree as well. Of Look, this is actually a 93 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: useful thing to do to look at efficiency, waste, and 94 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: even fraud. And Musca said he thinks it's probably about 95 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: ten to twenty percent of its actual fraud that is 96 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: going on where they see they need to fix things. 97 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: The rest of it is inefficiency, and it's probably something 98 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: you can all relate to. We're all frustrated about how 99 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: slow moving and bureaucratic government can be and that is 100 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: leading to real problems in society, inequality, slow access to 101 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: for instance, healthcare. We've just in the last couple of 102 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: days we heard some horrific stories about people having to 103 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: wait for cardiograms and potentially that leading to fatal conditions. 104 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,119 Speaker 1: So we know there is an efficiency, there are bottlenecks there, 105 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: but really Keen, first of all, we will stell it 106 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: with you, Rob, with your extensive experience both in business 107 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: and obviously as the chair of Ta Fatuura for period 108 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: as well, overseeing huge government spending there and a big bureaucracy. 109 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: What do you make of dog and is there a 110 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: kernel of value on what they're attempting. 111 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 4: There's a kernel of value in continuously reevaluating what you're 112 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 4: doing to ensure that you are doing it efficiently and effectively, 113 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 4: whether you're in private business or government, and governments are 114 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 4: notoriously not good at this, So there's value in that. 115 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 4: Whether letting a mad axe man into the front door 116 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 4: and having him roam around the government is a good 117 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 4: way of doing that. I'm much less convinced. I don't 118 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 4: think there's much to be said for the way they're 119 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 4: going about it. But that doesn't mean that there isn't 120 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 4: a need to have continual reevaluation of that kind going on. 121 00:07:53,600 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 4: But as has happened here much lesser levels. The key 122 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 4: to doing any of these exercises is to understand the mechanism, 123 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 4: the model that you're dealing with. Understand what is happening there, 124 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 4: not just deal with it, which with the metrics which 125 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 4: are coming out the far end, but understand what the 126 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 4: model is you're working with. And if you don't do that, 127 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,559 Speaker 4: you can go and roam around. Accountants to it quite often, 128 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: and just as dangerously, you can go and roam around. 129 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 4: And so we want to cut this, we want to 130 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 4: cut that, we want to do this. But if you 131 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 4: don't understand to come back to it, don't understand the 132 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: model of what's going on here, then you're probably going 133 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: to cause as much damage as you'll do good. And 134 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 4: I suspect that with the way they're approaching it in 135 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 4: the US, that's highly likely to be the case. 136 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's a big criticism of DOGE so far 137 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: is that the team members, while a lot of them 138 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: are skilled computer programmers, some of the very young, gifted 139 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: people that have come out of Tesla and other companies 140 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: like that, they sort of lack any understanding of government processes, contracts, 141 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: how grants work, the actual realities of working in government. 142 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: So it's one thing to take a sort of a 143 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: tech focus on this, and they know how efficient tech 144 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: can be, but the actual workings of government is a 145 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: completely different thing. And without doing it in conjunction with 146 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: all those people who have that domain knowledge, I guess 147 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: you're going to run into trouble. 148 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, and two steps there, Peter one, I agree with 149 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 4: the way you frame it that I would go even 150 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 4: further and say that it's not enough just to understand the 151 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 4: current machinery, because it's a fair bet the current machinery 152 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 4: is clumsy and wrong and obscuring things. You've got to 153 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 4: go back to that real model of what it is 154 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 4: we're trying to do here, How are we trying to 155 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 4: do it? Does that make sense? And the technology and 156 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 4: the accounting and everything else really follows on after that, 157 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 4: You know, you can send in some bright tech people. 158 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 4: There's not really any different descending and some bright accountants 159 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 4: to look at one of these things. If you really 160 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 4: don't understand what you're trying to achieve and have a 161 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 4: good model of what you try to achieve, the danger 162 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 4: is that you will just cause distruction, not creation. 163 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: And what's your take on Doge? Obviously you've written a 164 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: book last year, Fast Forward Our Tailor, which is really 165 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: advocating for digital first government, things like legislating full service 166 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: application programming interfaces to make government a lot more efficient 167 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: and equitable. What's your take on what you've seen sort 168 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: of unfold in the US with Doge. 169 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, like Rob says, sort of going in there with 170 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 3: a chainsaw is you know, we'll wait to see how 171 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 3: it all turns out. But I mean I've listened. I 172 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 3: think the US is a very different political environment to 173 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 3: hear and out there are and I think what I 174 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: had a very interesting podcast recently where the Gray Area Podcasts, 175 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 3: where the speaker was basically describing the underlying political access here. 176 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 3: Whereas you've got status quoests who seem to think that 177 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: everything's fine, versus brokennests who think that everything is broken, 178 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: and you have the extreme brokennest wing have now taken 179 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 3: hold of the leaves of power, and so really they 180 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: really didn't think it was worth fixing, if you if 181 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 3: you like, So, I think part of the strategy here 182 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: is to go in and just utterly dismantle what is there, 183 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 3: and it can't be any more broken than it was before. So, 184 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: you know, I think that, as I say, the US 185 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 3: context is very different to hear it in out you know, 186 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 3: the book. In my book, you know, it was really 187 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: thinking about how emerging technology can provide solutions to deliver 188 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 3: our rutcomes. And if we agree that productivity, accessibility, efficiency 189 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 3: are all outcomes of you know, horizon points we should 190 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 3: be aiming towards, then you know, employing some of these 191 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 3: modern technologies is arguably, you know, the way to achieve 192 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 3: that very quickly. Yeah, So look some of the ideas 193 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 3: that I you know, I like to reimagine the state 194 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: quote and I wouldn't say that Altibor's government is broken, 195 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: but I'd say it has a whole lot of inertia 196 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 3: inside it. You have a permanent public service constitutionally, which 197 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: leads to almost a culture of risk avoidance and and 198 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 3: you know, reluctance to rise significant change and if you 199 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 3: if you think about, you know, the modern services that 200 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 3: we're that we're consuming from, you know, the frontier technology 201 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: firms right now, then they are all software interfaces. And 202 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 3: so if you could re imagine the service delivery channels 203 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 3: of government as being software and application programming interface, and 204 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 3: increasingly that you could have an AI agent that would 205 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 3: interact with government services, then I think you could probably 206 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: take out aultimate a lot of the roles that are happening, 207 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: you know, in government right now, and and actually build 208 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 3: of a better service outcomes there. Finally, those better service 209 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 3: outcomes is the front front loading of the whole process 210 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 3: that they're certainly not doing in the in the US 211 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: right now. 212 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: Okay, and we'll come back to some of the suggestions 213 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: you have in Fast Forward al Tara around this that 214 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: may help. Paul. You're at easy Crypto at the moment, 215 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: you're really passionate and understand blockchain technologies, and you're actually 216 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: running a hackathon on this particular issue. Was this sort 217 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: of inspired by Doage seeing what was going on in 218 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: the US and thinking, actually, could we do this in 219 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: a sensible way and get some of our most innovative 220 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: technologists to contribute to it. 221 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 5: So we wrote a series of provocations for the Hack 222 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 5: of Time some time ago, and at that time, the 223 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 5: rumors of what DOGE was going to be and what 224 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 5: it's turned out to be a very different and what 225 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 5: I mean by that, as DOGE was trying to drive 226 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 5: some efficiency, there was talk of what chains being embedded 227 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 5: in some US processes to streamline stuff and where you know, 228 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 5: I represent a sector that believes that blockchains do have 229 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 5: a role to play and some of that, and so 230 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 5: we write a series of provocations. But it's not just 231 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 5: about building government departments on blockchains and eliminating and that's 232 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 5: not that's not what the Hack of pons about. It 233 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 5: was just really trying to get people to think about 234 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 5: some real world use cases and those solutions that would 235 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 5: have meaningful value. And given you know, we all touch government, 236 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 5: central or local government in some way, shape and form, like, 237 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 5: it's an easy thing for us to all from the 238 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 5: outside look in and go maybe we could do this 239 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 5: a little bit better. And you know, I think as 240 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 5: citizens were allowed to question our services are delivered to us, 241 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 5: and I think that's part of a good robust democracy. 242 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 5: But we are not advocating for what's you know, the 243 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 5: ideologically driven stuff that's coming out of DOGE. Now, that's 244 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 5: that's not where we started. And you know, again like 245 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 5: the one that I think you know, we were faring 246 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 5: to around, could you run in an expense system a 247 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 5: government expenses a blockchain. That was just one of maybe 248 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 5: twenty five provocations to the teams. So you know, we're 249 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 5: just trying to get people who's great mat of stimulated 250 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 5: when we wrote this sometime again. 251 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great, and I'm sure that's something actually the 252 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: likes of Judith Collins, the Minister for Digitizing Government, is 253 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: actually going to welcome, you know, sort of innovation in 254 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: this space. But Rob, you know, you're the one who's 255 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: had the most experience actually on the inside of working 256 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: with big government departments. I think at one point you 257 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: said New Zealand health system you described as a blocked 258 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: digestive system, which is a nice metaphor for it. But 259 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: can you sort of elaborate on that in a big 260 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: department like that? And health is a sort of I 261 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: guess is a special case and they are working to 262 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: try and fix it. But where are the sorts of 263 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: places that you really see the inefficiency and the wastage 264 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: that just really starts to result in a degradation of 265 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: service for citizens. 266 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 4: Well, I think I think health was and still is 267 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 4: a particularly ramshackle. It doesn't really even deserve to be 268 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 4: called a system. It's a kind of a ramshackle assembly 269 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 4: of different systems. And if you take, for example, the 270 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 4: recent stuff about t FUTU or are trying to run 271 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 4: the finances on a spreadsheet, Well, actually what they were 272 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 4: trying to do was take a whole lot of systems 273 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 4: that were producing different financial information and had to assemble 274 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 4: it somehow had never been assembled before, and the obvious 275 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 4: way to assemble it was on a spreadsheet. It wasn't 276 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 4: that anyone had started out wanting to manage it that way, 277 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 4: to be fair to the people currently running that. But 278 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 4: the reimagining thing, it sounds a bit of a grand phrase, 279 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 4: but there is enormous scope to improve these systems. I'm 280 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 4: working with a small fintech setup at the moment that 281 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 4: has some ideas about payments and accountability and audits and 282 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 4: all those kind of things that could improve distribution of benefits, 283 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 4: for example, And there are any of these ideas around 284 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 4: and what there was what there needs to be is 285 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 4: an openness to consider, apply and experiment with those within 286 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 4: the public service, which there isn't. So what you had 287 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 4: in health was a whole lot of ideas that had 288 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 4: been thrown at what was when Tavardaora was formed, the 289 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 4: largest software development house in New Zealand, accumulating people who 290 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 4: were defending often incompatible projects that were working against one another, 291 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: and simply because no one had really stood back and 292 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 4: properly thought about what are we trying to achieve here, 293 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 4: what are the priorities, what are the available technologies. So 294 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 4: they were basically trying to assess various offers that were 295 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 4: being made to them by various other providers and then 296 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 4: rebuild them in some way. So it was no wonder. 297 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 4: It was a mess, and I think that's not uncommon. 298 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 4: So some of that culture has to change, but I 299 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 4: don't really think that's all that difficult. I mean, New 300 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 4: Zealand does have a pretty active ecosystem of people coming 301 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 4: up with quite practical ideas which are not moonshots by 302 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 4: any stretch of the imagination, but are immediately applicable, which 303 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 4: could be picked up by government departments. And there is 304 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 4: a degree of sclerosis within those government departments, as there 305 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 4: is within within a number of larger private companies too. 306 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 4: I think the cause of that is a lack of 307 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 4: understanding both of the models of what is being done, 308 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 4: but also of the technologies at politician level, at board 309 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 4: member level, and at senior executive level. There are a 310 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 4: lot of people within the public service that understand, are 311 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 4: open to and would welcome innovation, but it is really 312 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 4: being stopped by a lack of understanding from the type. 313 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 3: In my view, I totally agree with that, and I 314 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 3: think what I'd also add is structurally the way that 315 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: the bureaucracy is structured into these monolithics, siloed departments where 316 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 3: actually a technology student will be architected with common components 317 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 3: across all of these and they're you know, there were 318 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 3: you know, there is a g CDO trying to coordinate 319 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 3: across all of them. But actually, you know, services like identity, 320 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 3: like payments would be common across the whole government platform, 321 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 3: and yet every individual department still operates their own to 322 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 3: some degree. And so, you know, I think there's this 323 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: fundamentally re architecting the bureaucracy is going to be a 324 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 3: consequence of attempting to digitize the whole government, and these 325 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 3: these departments are not in the mood for that right. 326 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 3: They operate with a with a large degree of inerture. 327 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 3: As I said, So, one of the considerations I would 328 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 3: say is why do we have permanent government departments, government agencies? 329 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 3: Why do we not just the same way as we 330 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 3: have an election every three years, Why don't we just 331 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: put us sinessa limit that you know, a government department 332 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: will live for five years and then it will be 333 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 3: recycled and shut down. And so you know, why could 334 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 3: you not actually derive some of this permanent refreshment of 335 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 3: your bureaucracy into some legislation. 336 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, one of the ideas in the book, 337 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: as I said at the start Digital First, government legislated 338 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: full Services API. No government service can be enabled without 339 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: API implementation. And for people who don't understand what that is, 340 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: this is a sort of a plug and essentially that 341 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: allows data to be transferred between systems in a seamless 342 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: sort of way. So, and that's something I hear a 343 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: lot across government. It is very siloed, and it's sort 344 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: of by design, partly for the reasons that I think 345 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: you've alluded to that they don't want to change, but 346 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: also citizens don't necessarily want to change. We don't even 347 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: want a digital driver's license in this country. There's a 348 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: lot of opposition to putting data all in one place, 349 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: even if there's a good case that it's going to 350 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: help people get more equitable access. 351 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 5: So my take on all of this conversation is that 352 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 5: it's when you are in health and you're a nurse. 353 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 5: You're very clear what you're doing and the goals you 354 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 5: know is the patient right in front of you. But 355 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 5: as you start to get further away your loose side 356 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 5: of the outcomes you're trying to deliver. It happens in 357 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 5: big companies. I used to work for a tower communications company. 358 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 5: It happens there as well, and you can get fixated 359 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 5: on your little project and your little thing and have 360 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 5: no actual connection to the outcome you're trying to do 361 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 5: the thing. The observable thing for me is that across 362 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 5: all of the bureocracy that is government is there's no 363 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 5: single vision or platforms. And you know, you've talked you 364 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 5: know being and I agree with some of what you said. 365 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 5: I may have some challenges with some others parts of 366 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 5: what you said, but that's okay. You know, things about 367 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 5: identity and access management, how that's done, my personal information, 368 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 5: how that is shared or not shared. Payments because it's 369 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 5: still about moving money and did you money around. Those 370 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 5: sorts of things all should be a foundation blocks for 371 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 5: every government department that builds on it. But that's not 372 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 5: how it's been constructed. And it's because they were organically developed, 373 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 5: you know, as they were digitizing. They're probably digitized at 374 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 5: different times. You know, I can remember before the dhvs 375 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 5: became an amalgamated set, like they were just hospitals, So 376 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 5: you know, they all kind of grew and then you 377 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 5: have such huge technology debt that trying to bring it 378 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 5: together what you're talking about being which is the Amazon 379 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 5: way and API first, but you had a very charismatic, 380 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 5: single leader at the top who was able to enforce 381 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 5: that stuff and doing that through a public service, that's 382 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 5: a real challenge, and you know, you almost get to 383 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 5: a point in time where you have to say, we 384 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 5: have to start a new we have to start with 385 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 5: some foundational building blocks and starting new. 386 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 4: I think you also have to have regard to the 387 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 4: way finance and spending ability is spread through the public service. 388 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 4: It really operates on what I've always seen is kind 389 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 4: of a jamjar theory where there's an appropriation of money 390 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 4: for a particular purpose, which is to find ahead of time, 391 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 4: and that's what's available for that purpose, and that goes 392 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 4: into that jam jar. And if you're managing a public 393 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 4: service operation, you have a whole set of these jam 394 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 4: jars which have been predetermined for you, and what you're 395 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 4: not doing is really ever sitting back and seeing where 396 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 4: the money would be most effectively spent, So you are 397 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 4: spending it out of each jar, and that does lead 398 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 4: to a kind of a very inefficient decision making system 399 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 4: as well. So my point is it's embedded in the 400 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,959 Speaker 4: way they're financed, embedded in the way that they have 401 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 4: the ability to spend, which entrenches it so that actually 402 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 4: saving some money or doing something better in one part 403 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 4: of the operation doesn't necessarily make any progress for you. 404 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 5: Again, that's where we'd think blockchain a role to play, 405 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 5: because if a blockchain system was there and every government 406 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 5: department could see that someone's building a brand new payment system, 407 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 5: you had some sort of edict that said, why don't 408 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 5: you reuse what we've got rather than build something new. 409 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 5: Those types of things is where you know, we think 410 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 5: blockchains are really powerful because they're quite transparent in that regard, 411 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 5: and they're also really good at managing the flow of 412 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 5: information because it's always there, you know. That's kind of 413 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 5: the other key element of blockchains. And so having a 414 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 5: system where what someone did in twenty twenty three is 415 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 5: available to the people in twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five, 416 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 5: so they can kind of see the evolution, I think 417 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 5: is also a powerful thing around blockchain. So that's why, Peter, 418 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 5: you know, we did have these publications written. So we 419 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 5: do think there are good uses for blockchain technology in 420 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 5: the public sector, but it's not a be all in 421 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 5: or we're not trying to take it all over. 422 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I would say that every government in the 423 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 3: West world, in the democratic world, is going to be 424 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 3: having the same conversation right now. The UK announced last 425 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 3: week kis that I think gives forty five billion pounds 426 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 3: of efficiencies of cost cutting from AI and digitization their initiative, 427 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 3: and so I think, you know, the Elon Musk led 428 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 3: Doge initiative in the US is driving this conversation of worldwide, 429 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 3: and I think that's an opportunity because if every government 430 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 3: is having the same challenges. Then let's coordinate, let's cooperate, 431 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 3: let's build open gov stack and I'm sure it just 432 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 3: exists so that you can basically just coordinate and take 433 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 3: the best bits from what everybody else is building all 434 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 3: around the world blockchain, but other open source components as well, 435 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 3: and that would be The other principle absolutely is that 436 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 3: unless there is a compelling reason why the software that 437 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 3: is deployed inside government needs to be closed source, then 438 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 3: as a principle, everything that is deployed needs to be 439 00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 3: open source. That also mitigates against the enclosure of of 440 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 3: government services by large technology companies who have managed to 441 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 3: basically build significant footprint underneath government services that exists, and 442 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 3: that's going to be quite hard in future if we 443 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 3: don't change direction towards more open source, flexible software to 444 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 3: actually get to wean ourselves off. 445 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big bone of contention with our local 446 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: tech companies. The likes of Ian McCrae from Orion Healthcare. 447 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: It felt like he was being his head against the 448 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: brick wall dealing with our health system because that big, 449 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: big tech procurement is so entrenched, the likes of Microsoft's 450 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: and AWS. We have a cloud first strategy and government, 451 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: and they are the default providers to offer that. 452 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: The political climate has changed, right, so they are effectively 453 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 3: beholden to a very unpredictable, unstable government which will potentially 454 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 3: could add tariffs reverse tariffs to the cost of those 455 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 3: and so it would be very at idea I think 456 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 3: to build some resilience and diversity in voice into where 457 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 3: we're procuring most of the platforms we're running our then 458 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 3: it systems on. Yeah. 459 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think often government under official government officials often 460 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 4: underestimate the extent to which those very large mega vendors 461 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 4: are running their own business model quite effectively too. And 462 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 4: it may coincide with your needs it or it may not, 463 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 4: but it's not The aim is not that and so 464 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 4: the more we can take a open attitude towards that, 465 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 4: the better. And I think for a non technologist like me, 466 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 4: which I say straight away I am, the more you 467 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 4: get involved in the stuff, the more you learn how 468 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 4: much better protection there is in terms of accountability, auditability, 469 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 4: and transparency in open systems. So totally agree with that. 470 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, Rob. One of the premise of DOGE is that 471 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: they need sort of access to the source code of government. 472 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: Is they don't trust the government officials. You know, they 473 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: talk about things like social security. There are problems with 474 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: the so called death file, the record of deceased individuals. 475 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: They claim that people have been receiving benefits for years 476 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: after they've actually been deceased. So there are issues like 477 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: that which you may get given a report put on 478 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: your desk as someone in governance off a government department, 479 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: and you get one view off it, but the reality 480 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: is different. So that's the argument for the deep reach 481 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: they need to have into these government departments. What was 482 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: your sense when you were sharing to fatu Aura? Could 483 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: you actually trust the information? Did you have faith in 484 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: the information that was being presented to you that you 485 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: had to make major, potentially hundreds of millions of dollars 486 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: type decisions based on that? 487 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 4: It was not trustworthy. People were trustworthy, the people were honest, 488 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 4: but they were working within systems that couldn't be relied 489 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 4: upon to be accurate or compatible with one another. Absolutely 490 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 4: a problem, and you know, I think it's no wonder 491 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 4: you know that there are inefficiencies, I'm sure, and I 492 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 4: don't know about the US system, but Elon Musk has 493 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 4: probably benefited from more of the inefficiencies than anyone else 494 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 4: in history, so he would know. But here there are undoubtedly, 495 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 4: you know, individually small but possibly collective inaccuracies and wrong 496 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 4: payments and wrong allocations going on all the time. And 497 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 4: it isn't everyone's interests that we improve those and improve 498 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: them quickly. And the better that's, the quicker that's done, 499 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 4: the better, So, you know, I think it almost Peter, 500 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 4: I know you sort of wanted to hang this discussion 501 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 4: around Doge, but actually the discussion is much better if 502 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 4: you ignore Doze in my view, and look at what 503 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 4: we really need here and and what our problems are 504 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 4: and the solutions that are available. 505 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: Well, just one, you know, the immediate issues in front 506 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: of our health system. One of them is you know, 507 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: they're making a call at the moment about letting go 508 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: essentially a large part of the health IT workforce, from 509 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: you know to fatu Aura. Interesting your views on that 510 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: rib at a time where it seems that digital health 511 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: and preventative healthcare and all the digital tools that are 512 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: available now around the world to provide those sorts of services. 513 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: I mean, does this make sense to you that we 514 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: need to sort of sort of burn it all down 515 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: and rebuild it, or are you really worried about the 516 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: loss of capability that's going to come with us. 517 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 4: Well, a couple of things there. One is you've got 518 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 4: to be very careful in politicians and public service executives 519 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 4: talk about the job cuts they're making. Typically most of 520 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 4: those jobs that no one's in. They like to announce 521 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 4: that they're making job cuts, but often their vacant positions 522 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 4: that they're cutting, So you've got to watch the numbers. 523 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 4: There was scope for rationalization in the way the Ministry 524 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 4: of Health and the individual health boards had built up 525 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 4: their digital teams. It wasn't well structured or well organized, 526 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 4: so there was scope for rationalization. And that I'm just 527 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 4: not close enough to know whether the decisions being made 528 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 4: now are the right ones in that but you know, 529 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 4: this is not a matter of having the most people. 530 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 4: It's a matter of having the right systems and well 531 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 4: directed thinking going on about it. So yeah, I'm just 532 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 4: too far away to know now. But there was certainly 533 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 4: scope for rationalization. 534 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 5: And you could see in the US the law of 535 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 5: unindenda consequences that are about to flow through, right, and 536 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 5: the people who are indulge and let's be honesty and 537 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 5: I think may still be the richest man alife, but 538 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 5: Tesla's shoes are forward, aren't aren't going to be hurt, right, 539 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 5: But the funding cuts, the decision that they're making are 540 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 5: going to flow through and start affecting everyday people's lives, 541 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 5: whether it's their benefits, whether it's their health, whether it's 542 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 5: their education, those sorts of things, and you know, even 543 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 5: inside of you know, the New yealing house system. If 544 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 5: we if we do get to a position where we 545 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 5: take an idealistic we need to cut x amount of 546 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 5: people from the its stuff, it'll be the patience that 547 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 5: suffer because while while those people it's very hard to 548 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 5: connect what they're doing, I can guarantee you because we 549 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 5: saw it in Locatto when there was a big hack, stuff, 550 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 5: bad stuff will happen. You're no one in that organization 551 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 5: is setting out to do a bad job. They're actually 552 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 5: doing things. And if we dis arbitrarily cut it, and 553 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 5: I've worked in an organization that used to do this, 554 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 5: we're going to go, hey, we're just going to take 555 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 5: fifteen percent of our workforce out this year, bad stuff happens. 556 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent. My attitude, my argument would be 557 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 4: that there was a need to rationalize duplication and confusion, 558 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 4: and the projects that were being worked on, not that 559 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 4: the certain I don't have no idea whether the numbers 560 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 4: were right or on. What I would absolutely guarantee is, 561 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 4: from what I know of the senior executives and directors 562 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 4: and commissioners within that organization at the moment, the chances 563 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 4: that they are making the right decisions about what it 564 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: projects to proceed with them which not are very low. 565 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 4: It's almost sitting there making the wrong decisions. 566 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 3: Well and this and this again goes back to that 567 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 3: question of transparency, right, So there are lots of if 568 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: you could see the source code, if you could see 569 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 3: the architecture, if the actual applications were in GET in 570 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 3: a GET repository where people could download them and contribute 571 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 3: to them, I just I just feel that there'd be 572 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 3: more collective intelligence about some of the decisions being made. 573 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 3: But we have this sort of hierarchical, very centralized decision 574 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 3: making apparatus which is being shown up to basically not 575 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 3: really big sets for purpose in you know, in what 576 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 3: really in the next you know, two to three years, 577 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 3: we're going to see AI just deployed throughout our entire 578 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 3: economy and potentially drive you know, complete automation of pretty 579 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: much all cognitive work. Anything that is done in front 580 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 3: of a computer screen will be you know, arguably some 581 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 3: of the stuff that I'm seeing will be the doable 582 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 3: by an AI agent within one or two years. And 583 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 3: so how are we preparing to take advantage of that change? 584 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 3: And then also where's the conversation nationally as a different topic, 585 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 3: but about what happens when people are disestablished from their 586 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: roles by AI technology. So, you know, how are we 587 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 3: going to work towards some kind of fair transition to 588 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 3: a post AI labor market? 589 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you go into in your book, you know, 590 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: the concept that has been discussed about a universal basic 591 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: income and things like that, which is happening that discussion 592 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: and trials off it in places like Scandinavia. But on 593 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: that transparency issue, Paul, as you've mentioned, you think, you know, 594 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: blockchain is very amenable to that goal. We haven't really 595 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: seen any experimentation in government. We've got Treasury, Reserve Bank 596 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: rather looking at the concept of a central bank digital currency. 597 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: They've put quite a long time frame on that. Nothing 598 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: as much is going to happen, And is there anything 599 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: obvious to you where this sort of technology with things 600 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: like smart contracts, you know, that automation of the handshaking 601 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: between government departments that can sometimes take a long time 602 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: and be very bureaucratic. Any obvious areas that you could 603 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: apply that sort of technology to. 604 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, Look, I think for me, the standout candidate is 605 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 5: how we manage identities and people's identities with it across 606 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 5: all the government departments. I think blockchain technologies lend itself 607 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 5: very well to that sort of stuff, and just protecting 608 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 5: people's most private information. I think that is going to 609 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 5: be increasingly important given the future that BENC is coming 610 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 5: with AIS, because you know, if you think hackers are bad, 611 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 5: now imagine them under seeing the power Amazon to do 612 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 5: what they're doing. It'll be horrific, and frankly, the security 613 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 5: companies aren't built to deal with that. So I think 614 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 5: identity is certainly first and foremost for me, but also 615 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 5: things like, you know, even just how we run our democracy, 616 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 5: information and voting. There are already several governments out there 617 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 5: not South Korea is one of them who are voting 618 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 5: using blockchain technology help to feed up accounts, but also 619 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 5: gets through the photo fraud which was a big topic. 620 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 3: In America again. So there are there are really. 621 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 5: Simple, you know, from our point of view, simple technologies 622 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 5: that can be extended into that space. And you know, 623 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 5: with the consumer data right and all of that stuff 624 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 5: rolling through, like we think there's we need to have 625 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 5: something that's not fit for yesterday, which is kind of 626 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 5: possibly where we're going to end up. We need something 627 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 5: that's going to be fit for this world where you've 628 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 5: got ali agents doing what it's doing. And I think 629 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 5: that touches on your point, Rob, But the people making 630 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 5: the decisions probably looking backwards, not forwards, because it's hard 631 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 5: to keep up. 632 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 4: There is one point of view, Paul. Just to follow 633 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 4: on from that thought, you know, it's easy to get 634 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 4: depressed about that just when you think about the chances 635 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 4: or how you would get this sort of decision making 636 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 4: made properly from the center the other viewers that it 637 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 4: won't be Let's forget about it. Let's accept that in fact, 638 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 4: this is going to bubble up from what people do 639 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 4: at a more micro level in individual companies and businesses 640 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 4: and bits of operation, and eventually the people at the 641 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 4: top will be dragged along to understanding it. And may well, 642 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 4: I think that's happening in health. In health technology, it's 643 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 4: been much more widely applied out in community and private 644 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 4: enterprise health organizations. I see it happening a little bit 645 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 4: in fintech as well, and I think perhaps it will 646 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 4: bubble up from outside rather than be taken as a 647 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 4: kind of a digital program. The moment you get these 648 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 4: big government agencies sometimes seems to squash things rather than 649 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 4: promoting them. 650 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 3: I was really inspired by the work that ald retained 651 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 3: it in Taiwan when she was a government Digital Minister, 652 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,399 Speaker 3: and that does zero interitative that she led there, which 653 00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 3: was really allowing all citizens to basically contribute to governments. 654 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 3: To government I to open, complete transparency on the source code. 655 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 3: And to the point about voting systems, you know, we 656 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 3: have a system where you put a thick on a 657 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 3: piece of paper once every three years to elect are 658 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 3: representative and so much more. They were invented. They deployed 659 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 3: a system based on pollus which drives towards consensus rather 660 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 3: than adversarial politics. And so it was really interesting almost 661 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 3: the gamification of political decision making through crowd sourcing and 662 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 3: much more wide participation. So again, all of these are 663 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 3: just innovations that are are available to be used and 664 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 3: can be deployed. We have, but because of the funding 665 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 3: structures that none of it, none of it happens at all. 666 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: I just want to wrap up with, ideally, hopefully an 667 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: idea from each of you about what we could do 668 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: now given that we you know, we're very fiscally constrained 669 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: at the moment. We have a government with a growth mindset. 670 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: They say they're very sort of tech friendly, but the 671 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: bottom line is everything. Ben, for instance, you have suggested 672 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: we need some sort of agency or group within government 673 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: that takes a view across government on technology investment. If 674 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: we don't have that, we're going to continue to have 675 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: the siloed approach to investing in the infrastructure that could 676 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: underpin a lot of the stuff that will ultimately make 677 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: government more efficient and equitable. 678 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 3: Yeah. And whether that's a centralized government department in the 679 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 3: traditional mold, I would push back on. I think working 680 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 3: towards more decentralized collaborative initiatives just to make progress, I 681 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 3: think would probably be a better idea than establishing yet 682 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 3: another department in the bureaucracy. I think to basically pull 683 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 3: it apart and enable and that will involve funding some 684 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 3: kind of decentralized innovation model that gets applied and addresses 685 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 3: the concerns around risk and so create maybe an innovation 686 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 3: sandbox opportunity. But you know as soon as you create 687 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 3: a slope that people will walk downhill. And so to 688 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 3: basically create an environment where innovation that gets deployed into 689 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 3: government services is there's a really clear pass for that. 690 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 3: I think a decentralized model is probably the better way 691 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 3: to do that. 692 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: Paul, from your perspective, We've got an amazing community here 693 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: of blockchain developers. I'm doing sort of gaming applications, fintech applications. 694 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: What would you like to see sort of brought to 695 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: bear on these problems facing government? 696 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 5: So I've got kind of a two face response. So 697 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 5: I think we should come up with a vision. So 698 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 5: Singapore is a country without a lot of resources, and 699 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 5: it's innovated into finance because that was a natural place 700 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,479 Speaker 5: to do it. And I think, you know our days 701 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 5: are relying on commodity driven economy is probably done. So 702 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 5: I think if we can lean into a vision as 703 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 5: a government that says we want to be tech vest 704 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,240 Speaker 5: and truly mean it, not just the talking, but truly 705 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 5: mean it. And then you know, I think Rob's point. 706 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 5: You know, there's a whole bunch of very clever, smart, 707 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 5: nimble stetups in New Zealand, and I think if we 708 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 5: can get Central to buy into supporting those businesses adopting 709 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 5: their technology for the greater good as well as supporting 710 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 5: them to export, I think that would be a really 711 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 5: good outcome climper nation as well as our central government services. 712 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: And last word for you, Rob, what would you really 713 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: like to see and what do you think we could achieve? 714 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: Having been through the inferno of working at in the 715 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: health sector and seeing firsthand after coming from sky City 716 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: and the likes you know that have a very much 717 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: a profit incentive to be efficient and to automate as 718 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: much as possible and that sort of thing. What would 719 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: you like to see and what do you think could 720 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: be achievable in terms of tackling you know that the 721 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: waste and the inefficiency in health and other government departments. 722 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 4: I think the key here is innovation, and I think 723 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 4: at the moment in New Zealand we think about innovation 724 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 4: in the wrong way. We think about it at kind 725 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 4: of the institutional and in vesta level, or perhaps at 726 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 4: the private equity level. What change needs is to have 727 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 4: the government being able to think much more in a 728 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 4: venture capital mode about how it gets things moving, how 729 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 4: it encourages good ideas that are coming up and gets 730 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 4: them impluented at a smaller level. They don't have to 731 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 4: find these big macro solutions to things. The solutions probably 732 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 4: are very disaggregated, so you might as well approach them 733 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 4: in that way. So that really comes back around, I 734 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 4: think to what Ben and Paul have both been saying. 735 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,320 Speaker 4: We just need I don't want to set up another 736 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 4: agency either, but we just need to create the scope 737 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 4: where our focus is on encouraging innovation, which is of 738 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 4: its nature usually pretty small when it starts, and you 739 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 4: have to be prepared to take risks with that. The 740 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 4: idea that the big money coming in from offshore is 741 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 4: going to do this then or the next thing, I 742 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 4: think it's a complete cul de sac. It's going to 743 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 4: take us nowhere. So that's the key thing. 744 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: Okay, lots of great ideas there, and the Doge machine 745 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: will roll on in the US and we'll keep an 746 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: eye on that, and we'll keep an eye on what's 747 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: going on in government. But thanks so much, for all 748 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: those great ideas. We'll put show notes up on the 749 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: website linking to Ben's book and Paul's work with the 750 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: hackathon and everything else. So thanks so much guys for 751 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: coming on the Business of Tech. 752 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you Peter. 753 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 4: Thanks starving us. 754 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: So there you have some really great ideas there really 755 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:52,240 Speaker 1: about the potential role of decentralized technology and collaboration. But also, 756 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: as Rob said, it's about people as well, and it's 757 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: about strategy, having a firm plan of what you actually 758 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 1: want to achieve, rather than just taking the hatchet to 759 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 1: government spending for ideological reasons. So hopefully it's something that 760 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: the government here will increasingly do do this in an 761 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: evidence based way. We've got Judith Collins as the Minister 762 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,879 Speaker 1: for digitizing government. She wants more efficiency, she wants better 763 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: customer service in government. There are ways to do that 764 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,240 Speaker 1: leveraging really good technology. So hopefully she's got some good 765 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: ideas out of this as well. But let me know 766 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: what you think in the comments on my LinkedIn post. 767 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 1: Show notes are also in the podcast section at Business 768 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: deesk dot co dot nz. Lots of links related to 769 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: this week's episode. Now you can stream the podcast on 770 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Get in touch with 771 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,719 Speaker 1: your ideas for upcoming topics and guests. Just email me. 772 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: I'm Peter at Peter Griffin dot co dot nz or 773 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: I'm really easy to find on LinkedIn and I'd love 774 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,760 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Next week, I talk to Carmen 775 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: Visselik under a Velocity Global about growing tech trade with India. 776 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: Kamen is doing significant business with banks in India and 777 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: was under Prime Minister's recent trade delegation to India. She 778 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,760 Speaker 1: has some sage advice for tech and digital companies trying 779 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,280 Speaker 1: to tap into the vast Indian market that's dropping next Thursday. 780 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: Till then, have a great week.