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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the Union. Now the

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Speaker 1: Leyton Smith podcast Coward by news Talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and fifty one for August fourteen,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. Professor Robert McCulloch has a resume and

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Speaker 2: that is to be en beat. He began his tertiary

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Speaker 2: education at the University of Auckland, continued at the London

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Speaker 2: School of Economics, Princeton University of America. He was director

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Speaker 2: of the PhD program at Imperial College in London. He's

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Speaker 2: been awarded with numerous prizes along the way, and returned

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Speaker 2: to New Zealand twelve years ago. He is Professor of

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Speaker 2: Macroeconomics at Auckland University and publishes widely, including his own

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Speaker 2: sites down to Worth Kiwi. And that's another statement. And

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Speaker 2: in spite of his career success, he appears to be modest,

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Speaker 2: but with the ability and the intent to ruffle feathers.

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Speaker 2: I think you'll enjoy this particular discussion. Now, please keep

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Speaker 2: in mind that this was recorded and put to bed

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Speaker 2: before Adrian or the Governor of the Reserve Bank made

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Speaker 2: his announcement with regard to it to interest rates, so

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Speaker 2: that could or may not affect anything that we've said

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Speaker 2: in the discussion. Just a few moments ago, I was

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Speaker 2: filling in a bit of time looking at an article

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Speaker 2: written by somebody I've previously interviewed. The said article runs

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Speaker 2: twenty eight printed pages. Yes, I've printed all of it,

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Speaker 2: and I'm wondering whether to interview the author again in

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Speaker 2: one setting or turn twenty eight pages into a series

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Speaker 2: because it covers a hell of a lot of current

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Speaker 2: and important matter. Now, on a more serious note, I

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Speaker 2: received this from a a friend and it relates to

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Speaker 2: the plane crash in Brazil, which was last week I

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Speaker 2: think on Friday their time. But it gives some detail

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Speaker 2: with regard to some of the passengers. Now, you may

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Speaker 2: have heard of this by the time you listened to

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Speaker 2: the podcast, but either way it doesn't matter. Doctors killed

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Speaker 2: in plane crash vowed to release evidence linking mRNA to

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Speaker 2: Turbo cancer. Eight cancer doctors who dedicated their lives to

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Speaker 2: saving others and blowing the whistle on the devastating turbocancer

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Speaker 2: epidemics sweeping the world have been found dead. The bodies

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Speaker 2: of six world leading oncologists and two resident medics were

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Speaker 2: found on Friday in the wreckage of the plane that

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Speaker 2: plunged from the sky in Brazil and exploded in a fireball,

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Speaker 2: killing all sixty two people on board. The doctors were

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Speaker 2: on their way to an international conference in South Paulo,

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Speaker 2: where they were set to present their findings that mRNA

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Speaker 2: and COVID nineteen vaccines are responsible for the explosion of

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Speaker 2: turbocancers and autoimmune disease, wreaking havoc around the world. Today,

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Speaker 2: mainstream media are working over time to brush this story

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Speaker 2: under the carpet. Now that sounds a little conspiratorial, and

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Speaker 2: if it does to you, then my only suggestion is

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Speaker 2: keep an open mind, because there's more going on behind

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Speaker 2: the scenes than any of us really aware of. And

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Speaker 2: so to Professor Robert McCulloch after the break, there are

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Speaker 2: essential fat nutrients that we need in our diet as

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Speaker 2: the body can't manufacture them. These are Omega three and

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Speaker 2: Amiga six fatty acids. Equisine is a combination of fish

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Speaker 2: oil and virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides

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Speaker 2: an excellent source of Omega three and Omega six fatty

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Speaker 2: acids in their naturally existing ratios. The Omiga six from

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Speaker 2: evening primrose oil assists it's the Omega three fish oil

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Speaker 2: to be more effective. Equisine is a high quality fish

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Speaker 2: oil supplement enriched with evening primrose oil that works synergistically

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Speaker 2: for comprehensive health support. Source from the deep sea sardines

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Speaker 2: Anchovisa Magril provide essential Amiga three fatty acids in their

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Speaker 2: purest form without any internal organs or toxins. Every batch

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Speaker 2: is tested for its purity before it's allowed to be sold.

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Speaker 2: Equisine supports cells to be flexible, so important to support

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Speaker 2: healthy blood flow and overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood,

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Speaker 2: balance and mental clarity and focus in children, all the

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Speaker 2: way to supporting stiff joints, mental focus, brain health and

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Speaker 2: healthy eyes as we get older. Equaisin is a premium,

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Speaker 2: high grade fish and evening primrose oil to be taken

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Speaker 2: in addition to a healthy diet and is only available

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Speaker 2: from pharmacies and health stores. Always read the label and

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Speaker 2: users directed and if symptoms persist, seeing your health care professional.

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Speaker 2: Farmer Broker Auckland. Robert McCulloch is Professor of macro Economics

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Speaker 2: at Auckland University. Now he has a very long resume,

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Speaker 2: but we will stick with the professorship at the moment

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Speaker 2: because that's all that matters to us. He is a Kiwi,

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Speaker 2: he's a New Zealander. He's worked and studied in various

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Speaker 2: universities and places around the world. Very very impressive. When

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Speaker 2: did you return to by the way, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: When did you return to.

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Speaker 3: New Zealand about twelve years ago?

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Speaker 2: Have you been at Auckland University all that time?

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Speaker 3: About a decade?

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Speaker 4: And when I left school in univisity, I work in

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Speaker 4: Wellington at Reserve Bank of New Zealand for a couple

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Speaker 4: of years before going abroad.

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Speaker 2: How buried are you in the subject of macroeconomics?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's the subject I've been studying for about

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Speaker 4: twenty thirty years in not just in this country, around

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Speaker 4: around the world, and I take a great interest not

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Speaker 4: just in economics but also politics as it relates to

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Speaker 4: the subject. I used to attend the meetings of the

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Speaker 4: Zet Initiative, which is this sort of think tank national

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Speaker 4: party advisor on behalf of one of their members, the

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Speaker 4: former bear Baron, Sir Douglas Myers, who died a number

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Speaker 4: of years ago.

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Speaker 3: So I take an interest.

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Speaker 4: It's not just sort of public sector, but private sector

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Speaker 4: quite quite a range as well as politics.

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Speaker 2: The Reserve Bank, of course, is another interest that you

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Speaker 2: would have. Yes, so we'll get to the Reserve Bank shortly.

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Speaker 2: But the state of the country at the moment financially economically,

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Speaker 2: how do you view it?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's not great, of course. Why isn't it great?

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Speaker 4: A lot of it has to do with how the

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Speaker 4: country was managed during the COVID years and the finance

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Speaker 4: minister back then, Robertson, who's popped up as vice chancellor

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Speaker 4: of Otaga University on six hundred and twenty nine thousand

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Speaker 4: a year.

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Speaker 3: By the way, Grant Robertson.

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Speaker 4: Assured us that he really staked his reputation on the

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Speaker 4: fact that he said the COVID policy of the government

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Speaker 4: would create good health outcomes and good economic outcomes.

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Speaker 3: The two went exactly had in hand.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's been proven to be false, and that line

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Speaker 4: was also promoted by Michael Baker at the epidemiologist at

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Speaker 4: Otaga University.

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Speaker 3: That's just not true.

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Speaker 4: As a result of the policies during the COVID year

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Speaker 4: in which they are reserving printed fifty billion bucks of

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Speaker 4: cash on top of a massive fiscal expansion of the

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Speaker 4: government of Robertson financed by debt. Those over the top

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Speaker 4: policies have landed us have a large part of the

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Speaker 4: responsibility for landing us in the mess we're currently in,

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Speaker 4: which is a recession. Westpac economists of predicting it might

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Speaker 4: even be a triple dip recession. And so we're still

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Speaker 4: emerging from the carnage of those six years of mismanagement

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Speaker 4: by Grant Robertson. So you know, good luck to Otaga

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Speaker 4: University because Robinson's been hired by them to sort out

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Speaker 4: their financial situation, while Grant has left the financial situation

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Speaker 4: of this country in an utter shambles.

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Speaker 2: So you singled him out. As far as the government

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Speaker 2: is concerned, is the then Prime Minister have a percentage

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Speaker 2: of responsibility for that?

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Speaker 4: Well, of course, because there was this view that they

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Speaker 4: brought into coming from their advisors like Baker and Otago.

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Speaker 4: The theme of their government was good health outcomes go

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Speaker 4: hand in hand with good economic outcomes. They thought everything

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Speaker 4: they were doing in terms of COVID would lead to

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Speaker 4: the best economic outcomes in the world, so they argued,

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Speaker 4: we're the best health outcomes and we'd have the best

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Speaker 4: economic outcomes. Well, funnily enough, America is currently booming and

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Speaker 4: we're in a recession.

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Speaker 3: So heck that was a bit off, wasn't it.

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Speaker 4: And what really stuffed the country was towards the end

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Speaker 4: of twenty twenty one, going right quite recently into twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty two, Auckland was in a full scale lockdown. So

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Speaker 4: the city where almost forty percent of the country to live,

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Speaker 4: the hub of much of its economic output, was shut

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Speaker 4: down and the entire city was locked up. And you

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Speaker 4: know that, I think took away the mojo of Auckland.

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Speaker 4: It took away our confidence, and Hipkins and a Deern

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Speaker 4: were largely responsible for that. It seems at some sort

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Speaker 4: of quite deep level Hepkins really doesn't like Auckland, and

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Speaker 4: Auckland doesn't really like him, so it's hard to see

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Speaker 4: how he could ever really hope being Prime Minister again

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Speaker 4: when he did that to forty percent of the country's

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Speaker 4: population and stuffed the economy in the process.

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Speaker 2: It's a very interesting and I think very accurate take

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Speaker 2: but there were other things that contributed to the to

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Speaker 2: the situation in Auckland. Of course, we'll get onto one

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Speaker 2: of those. No, we'll get onto a couple of those shortly.

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Speaker 2: There is another matter that has bugged this country for

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Speaker 2: a long time, productivity or lack of it. More importantly,

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Speaker 2: why is it that our productivity has been stemied for

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Speaker 2: so long and nobody seems to be able to make

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Speaker 2: what is a worthwhile impact upon it.

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Speaker 4: Well, yes, productivity. It's in the news all the time.

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Speaker 4: It has been for the last twenty odd years. And

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Speaker 4: my view of.

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Speaker 3: That is that the so called experts.

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Speaker 4: And you know, some folks would say, and I'm meant

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Speaker 4: to be an expert. Well, the government set up the

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Speaker 4: Productivity Commission, which was focused entirely on that matter, how

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Speaker 4: to find out what was causing low productivity and how

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Speaker 4: to fix it, and it's recently been wound up, it's

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Speaker 4: been abolished by the government. So my view on that is,

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Speaker 4: if you're briefly honest about it, we still don't know

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Speaker 4: exactly what has held back productivity growth in the country,

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Speaker 4: and I.

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Speaker 3: Think that's the fair solution.

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Speaker 4: Instead, you have a different person every week saying they

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Speaker 4: blame red tape. Others blame how geographic isolation. Some people

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Speaker 4: say there's something wrong with the tax system and that

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Speaker 4: should be changed. The Productivity Commission said, where you know,

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Speaker 4: so far away from our major markets.

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Speaker 3: We're a small country.

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Speaker 4: But the Productivity Commission ended up listing about twenty different factors.

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Speaker 4: And in a way that's unsatisfactory because you really want

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Speaker 4: to know what's the most important factor, and you know,

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Speaker 4: a ranking of the factors, what's the thing we should

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Speaker 4: really focus on.

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Speaker 3: Is it, say, red tape?

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Speaker 4: And you know, David Seymour's are going to head up

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Speaker 4: a new Ministry of Regulation to try to cut that.

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Speaker 4: But is that the main issue or is it something else?

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Speaker 4: And I think the Productivity Commission failed because it never

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Speaker 4: really ranked that long list in order of most to

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Speaker 4: least important. So it is unsatisfactory that for that reason,

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Speaker 4: because you know, the experts have never definitively identified what

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Speaker 4: it is. And it's become also confused by the fact

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Speaker 4: that productivity has been slowing in other countries like the

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Speaker 4: United States and in Europe, that many of those countries

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Speaker 4: have been suffering a productivity slow down, and some of

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Speaker 4: them are pointing to issues like the aging population, they're

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Speaker 4: just not as sort of many young people who tend

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Speaker 4: to be more innovative than older people. So it's incredibly

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Speaker 4: hard to identify exactly what the cause is. My suspicion

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Speaker 4: in this country over the last ten or so years

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Speaker 4: is that we've drifted into not becoming a meritocracy and

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Speaker 4: the people, the students we have, the ones who work

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Speaker 4: hardest get the highest grades.

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Speaker 3: They're not getting the best jobs.

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Speaker 4: Other factors are coming into play, and certainly we know

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Speaker 4: if you try to run a nation where the best

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Speaker 4: people are not promoted to the top, productivity we know

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Speaker 4: for a fact in economics is really.

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Speaker 3: Going to suffer.

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Speaker 4: Market economies are built on rewarding effort and ability. And

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Speaker 4: so my sort of preferred suspect as to what's holding

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Speaker 4: us back is we have to get back to a

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Speaker 4: country where meritocracy is rewarded. And if you look at

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Speaker 4: the outstanding performance of our applet, how is the Olympic

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Speaker 4: team chosen? Is it chosen on sort of other factors

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Speaker 4: coming into play, on what kind of team that looks

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Speaker 4: nice that you want, or is it done on who

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Speaker 4: got that, who was the fastest, who was the fastest canoeist,

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Speaker 4: who was the quickest, who could jump the highest and

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Speaker 4: high jump.

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Speaker 3: No, they select.

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Speaker 4: The team on who was the best, the highest, the strongest.

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Speaker 4: They don't select it on other factors. And look at

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Speaker 4: what the Kiwi athletes did, one of the best performances

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Speaker 4: in the world. So I think, I think as a

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Speaker 4: country we respond to incentives, and I think, particularly over

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Speaker 4: the last six years, certainly labor virtually destroyed the idea

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Speaker 4: of meritocracy in the country. I think it's unforgivable what

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Speaker 4: they did in that respect.

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Speaker 3: We have to get back to rewarding merit. That's my view.

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Speaker 2: That's I'm not going to prove easy I feel, but

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Speaker 2: I very much appreciated you pointing out the dying off

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Speaker 2: of a certain class of the population. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to narrow it down, but just the dying off of

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Speaker 2: an attitude that came out of the Second World War.

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Speaker 2: If it wasn't there before, uh and and and stayed

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Speaker 2: for a long time, and then all of us, well,

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Speaker 2: not all of a sudden, but it seemed all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden you had a different approach from those who

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Speaker 2: were exiting school going on to wherever else they went

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Speaker 2: that lacked lacked an attitude now I can. I can

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Speaker 2: point to that in the in the industry or the

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Speaker 2: business that I've been in, when they've experienced people applying

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Speaker 2: for jobs and it's nights or weekends or a bit

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Speaker 2: of both or what no, no, no, no, I don't

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Speaker 2: work weekends. I don't work nights. I've got other things

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Speaker 2: to do. And this has been an attitude, and the minuture,

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Speaker 2: the minuture hear that it's really a case of I

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Speaker 2: want the corner office. Not did you have officers anymore

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Speaker 2: in broadcasting, but I want the corner office, and I

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Speaker 2: want at least three phones and a television and by

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Speaker 2: the way, while you're at it, get me a maid.

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Speaker 2: That's the attitude that.

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Speaker 4: Has entered the arena, and I think I think that's

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Speaker 4: why it's been very hard to identify it. You know,

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Speaker 4: if you're looking at statistics and numbers, it's very hard

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Speaker 4: to prove it when it's sort of a cultural change

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Speaker 4: in an attitude. But that's what my suspicion is. It

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Speaker 4: is that kind of attitude change you're changing or you're describing.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've heard, by the way, it was that

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Speaker 4: from the wife whose husband was the former chief executive

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Speaker 4: of Southern cross medical insurance, so they know all the

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Speaker 4: sort of doctors in the country. She said, there is

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Speaker 4: no doctor shortage in the country. That's all a myth. Apparently,

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Speaker 4: the talk is as you say that a large number

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Speaker 4: of medical school graduates now don't want to work.

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Speaker 3: Are you know five seven days a week.

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Speaker 4: My dad was a GP work seven days a week

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Speaker 4: for many years when I was growing up.

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Speaker 3: He was on call frequently in the weekends.

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Speaker 4: Apparently, she said, you know, a lot of graduates now

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Speaker 4: want to work Tuesday to Thursday. You know, have these

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Speaker 4: sort of hours of their choosing, and they're just as

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Speaker 4: an attitude, they don't want to work like the previous

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Speaker 4: generation did.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's another aspect to the medical side of things,

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Speaker 2: and that is the changes in well the attempted changes

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Speaker 2: in hospitals by boards of how doctors conduct themselves. And

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Speaker 2: I have to include, because I can't avoid it, the

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Speaker 2: racial aspects of it with and I've been shown numerous,

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Speaker 2: on numerous occasions examples of this where if you are

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Speaker 2: mari then you are entitled to first and more of

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Speaker 2: much of the health system. And there's no avoiding it.

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Speaker 2: And I said to one doctor, a very good specialist,

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Speaker 2: when he was actually showing me what he had to

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Speaker 2: deal with. I said, would you consider leaving the country

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Speaker 2: without breathing? He said yes. And that probably has led

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Speaker 2: to the belief, well contributed to the belief that we

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Speaker 2: have a shortage of doctors, and maybe we have a

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Speaker 2: shortage of specialists. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, the entire health system needs to be changed.

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Speaker 4: It's not a matter of just changing the person at

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Speaker 4: the top, like Lester Levy. The entire system has to

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Speaker 4: be changed. My preferred reform, which I don't think that

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Speaker 4: the NATS have got the guts to do, is to.

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Speaker 3: Keep the single payer structure that we have.

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Speaker 4: That as the government pays the bills universal health care,

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Speaker 4: so no one has to worry, but it negotiates prices

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Speaker 4: at the hospitals for all different procedures. Barmac already does

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Speaker 4: that with the private drug companies. The medical laboratories are private,

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Speaker 4: gps are private practices. So the government negotiates prices and

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Speaker 4: then anyone public or private can offer their services at

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Speaker 4: those prices. And if it turns out that over half

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Speaker 4: of the hill system that people prefer to go private,

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Speaker 4: and over half of it is private suppliers, and that's fantastic,

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Speaker 4: and the public hospitals maybe become smaller, or if the

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Speaker 4: public sector is able to outcompete the private that's great

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Speaker 4: as well. But we need massive influx of competition, probably

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Speaker 4: a huge expansion of private suppliers. Everyone's covered, and you

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Speaker 4: can choose whether you go public and private. But having

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Speaker 4: this system of a single payer, which is fine, but

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Speaker 4: also essentially single supplier that is the big public hospitals,

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Speaker 4: you get into all of this mess where the government's

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Speaker 4: policies on all sorts of matters, not just medical help,

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Speaker 4: but all sorts of ideology of the government creeps into

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Speaker 4: the supply side, and I think that needs to change.

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Speaker 2: I want to back up just a moment, when you

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Speaker 2: were mentioning the pandemic and the effect that it had

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Speaker 2: in the reaction to it on both the health and

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Speaker 2: economic front, what advice would you have because undoubtedly, well

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing that you won't ask for any advice, But

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Speaker 2: what advice would you have given the government if they

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Speaker 2: if they'd sorted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the government had their chosen advisors. I think

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Speaker 4: that led to Durn's downfall because she didn't.

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Speaker 3: Listen to a range of advice.

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Speaker 4: She just had the advisors who she loves, and she

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Speaker 4: listened to pretty much everything they had to say. So

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Speaker 4: this isn't with hindsight. By the way, Robertson accused some

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Speaker 4: of us who do commentary on this as just commenting

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Speaker 4: with the benefit of hindsight. At the time, I was

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Speaker 4: writing that on the blog in the papers that given

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Speaker 4: there was such an extraordinary large fiscal expansion of borrowing

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Speaker 4: financed by borrowing, it was unnecessary to do such a

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Speaker 4: large monetary expansion as well.

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Speaker 3: So at the time my view was that was a

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Speaker 3: major mistake. Of course, the.

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Speaker 4: Wage substy scheme, that sort of thing was all good.

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Speaker 4: But when you had the wage substy scheme in place,

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Speaker 4: why on top of that did you need to print

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Speaker 4: fifty billion bucks. So I think it's virtually criminal what

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Speaker 4: the Reserve Bank did. We already had one of the

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Speaker 4: world's largest fiscal expansions and to put on top of

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Speaker 4: that one of the world just monetary expansion.

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Speaker 3: So at the time, with all the limited power I have.

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Speaker 4: Which is doing things like your show, I was arguing

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Speaker 4: one should not do that monetary expansion.

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Speaker 3: What did it do? It blew up inflation.

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Speaker 4: And then the Reserve Bank governor said well, we have

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Speaker 4: to now engineer recession to get the inflation I created

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Speaker 4: back down again. He actually got that wrong as well.

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Speaker 4: He did an engineer recession. It looks like he's engineered

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Speaker 4: three recessions, and so he threw the country into a

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Speaker 4: cost of living crisis as people struggled to pay their mortgages.

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Speaker 4: So I think that was a fundamental mistake that was made.

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Speaker 2: Do you do shopping as in food.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Were you constantly aware of the increase in the bill

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Speaker 2: that you had to pay every time you went shopping?

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Speaker 4: Oh, of course, of course. I mean, you know, I

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Speaker 4: have three children, of course we can. It's just astronomical.

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Speaker 4: The ow food bill is probably you know, higher than

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Speaker 4: the average wage in the in the in the country.

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Speaker 3: It's just just phenomenal.

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Speaker 4: And you know that means, you know, to bring up

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Speaker 4: children now just to pay the groceries, both parents have

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Speaker 4: to work.

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Speaker 3: You can't.

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Speaker 4: You can't buy grocery bills in a million years in

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Speaker 4: this country with one parent working on the average wage,

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Speaker 4: you you can't. You can't afford food. So of course

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Speaker 4: that was a Now on that topic, can you believe

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Speaker 4: it that it's in the news every other day that

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Speaker 4: we have this duopoly with the supermarkets. So what did

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Speaker 4: Adarn do in her infinite wisdom during the lockdowns? He

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Speaker 4: granted the duopoly, the monopoly enshrined in law that no

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Speaker 4: one else in the country could sell food during the

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Speaker 4: locko downs, only the two super big supermarket chains chain.

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Speaker 3: So every small business.

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Speaker 4: And grosser got wiped out and that was the law

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Speaker 4: of the country. So that was another I think economic

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Speaker 4: policy where a Dern and Hipkins and Robertson enshrined the

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Speaker 4: power of monopolies in the economy. And I still don't

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Speaker 4: think we pulled out of that.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that that was just plain ignorance or

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Speaker 2: did that did that deploy some shall we say socialist approach?

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Speaker 4: Yes, I mean the ideology of socialism was there with

401
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Speaker 4: just command and control essentially it you know, it's called

402
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Speaker 4: an economics command and control regulations that every the idea

403
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Speaker 4: was we can sort everything out through by by command

404
00:26:07,933 --> 00:26:13,293
Speaker 4: and and I think in Dern's head the idea was, well,

405
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Speaker 4: we listened to Baker at Otago.

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Speaker 3: Because he said we should lock down.

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Speaker 4: The only practical way of doing that, we grant him

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Speaker 4: monopoly to the chains. And then, of course, gosh, if

409
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Speaker 4: the supermacher chains have made. If people like that have

410
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Speaker 4: made too much money because of our policy, well we'll

411
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Speaker 4: call David Parker and ask him with mister Pickeaty how

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Speaker 4: to design capital at wealth taxes in the country to

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Speaker 4: get the money back.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is just a.

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Speaker 4: Shambalaquay of conducting, conducting, you know, a country's management.

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Speaker 2: Well, shambolic and ignorant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to slip in here that I did

419
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Speaker 2: some economics, and I'm reluctant to do it because I

420
00:26:57,933 --> 00:27:01,253
Speaker 2: never finished anything. But I did some economics and my favorite,

421
00:27:01,373 --> 00:27:08,973
Speaker 2: my favorite class was comparative economic systems, and it set

422
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Speaker 2: me on a path that ended up with me being

423
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Speaker 2: in the Soviet Union as it still was in January

424
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Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty nine, and I saw firsthand and experience

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Speaker 2: firsthand as a guest of Navosity Press, all sorts of

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Speaker 2: aspects of life that we avoided, of course, But how

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Speaker 2: anybody with the history that socialism has, Marxism has, I

428
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Speaker 2: just don't know how anyone can be a part of it.

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Speaker 2: It's absurd. Now you want to take any issue with that.

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Speaker 4: No, we'll ask a Dern because she still wildly embraces it.

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Speaker 4: And of course the Labor Party is wildly embracing it.

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Speaker 4: So surprisingly, there was some very strong comments earlier this

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Speaker 4: week anti charter school comments.

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Speaker 3: By the late a shadow education.

435
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Speaker 4: Spokesperson, and it was sort of a vitriolic spewing of

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Speaker 4: invective on the idea that privately supplied anything that's privately

437
00:28:24,573 --> 00:28:28,373
Speaker 4: supplied was really a sort of horrible idea, and the idea,

438
00:28:28,893 --> 00:28:32,493
Speaker 4: even though charter schools are publicly funded, the idea that

439
00:28:32,533 --> 00:28:36,813
Speaker 4: private suppliers would run them was just went against everything

440
00:28:36,813 --> 00:28:40,973
Speaker 4: the Labor Party stood for, which is amazing to hear

441
00:28:41,013 --> 00:28:42,733
Speaker 4: that in twenty twenty four.

442
00:28:43,333 --> 00:28:48,653
Speaker 2: Think that you really think it's amazing, Well maybe not.

443
00:28:49,493 --> 00:28:54,093
Speaker 4: I was surprised because that the only way out of

444
00:28:54,733 --> 00:28:58,173
Speaker 4: the mess of not just education but the health system

445
00:28:58,533 --> 00:29:02,773
Speaker 4: is that that kind of model of public funding which

446
00:29:02,853 --> 00:29:08,253
Speaker 4: ensures equity, that regardless whether you're or wealthy, whatever, everyone

447
00:29:08,453 --> 00:29:12,613
Speaker 4: can go to a charter school, or regardless of wealth,

448
00:29:12,653 --> 00:29:15,053
Speaker 4: you can go to any medical supplier of your choice.

449
00:29:15,773 --> 00:29:19,893
Speaker 4: But you, of course to have competition between public and

450
00:29:19,933 --> 00:29:22,893
Speaker 4: private suppliers is a great thing.

451
00:29:23,213 --> 00:29:25,773
Speaker 3: That competition is fantastic.

452
00:29:25,893 --> 00:29:29,493
Speaker 4: So to here Labor coming out anti competition.

453
00:29:29,573 --> 00:29:31,333
Speaker 3: I find unbelievable there.

454
00:29:32,133 --> 00:29:35,853
Speaker 2: Well, I follow the charter school game for the last

455
00:29:35,853 --> 00:29:39,373
Speaker 2: few years and done a number of interviews around it,

456
00:29:40,213 --> 00:29:43,973
Speaker 2: and it's to me it comes back to the to

457
00:29:44,053 --> 00:29:47,653
Speaker 2: the power of the teachers unions essentially.

458
00:29:48,133 --> 00:29:51,373
Speaker 4: Yes, And I mean what struck me was that labor

459
00:29:51,493 --> 00:29:57,173
Speaker 4: must really really want the education of young Maori to suffer.

460
00:29:57,293 --> 00:30:03,653
Speaker 4: Because President Obama in America, his words were he lauded

461
00:30:04,493 --> 00:30:06,893
Speaker 4: charter schools in America as a beacon of hope for

462
00:30:07,053 --> 00:30:10,933
Speaker 4: young Black americ and children. And they also were showing

463
00:30:11,413 --> 00:30:15,613
Speaker 4: great results for young Mari children because that model of

464
00:30:15,773 --> 00:30:20,773
Speaker 4: independence and you know, you can design the schools policies

465
00:30:21,213 --> 00:30:24,173
Speaker 4: with more freedom from the state was showing great results.

466
00:30:24,213 --> 00:30:27,493
Speaker 4: So it seems that some level labor really have it

467
00:30:27,573 --> 00:30:29,893
Speaker 4: in for the education of young Mari.

468
00:30:31,093 --> 00:30:34,413
Speaker 2: The subject of infrastructure has had a big play in

469
00:30:34,453 --> 00:30:36,893
Speaker 2: the last few weeks. It was brought home to me

470
00:30:37,693 --> 00:30:40,333
Speaker 2: when I was listening to the radio and heard commentary

471
00:30:40,373 --> 00:30:46,253
Speaker 2: with regard to the necessary machinery for infrastructure, and it's

472
00:30:46,453 --> 00:30:49,693
Speaker 2: basically all left. All the big stuff has left the

473
00:30:49,733 --> 00:30:53,093
Speaker 2: country and getting it back isn't going to be easy.

474
00:30:53,853 --> 00:30:57,013
Speaker 2: How much is that going to hinder the development of

475
00:30:57,373 --> 00:31:01,853
Speaker 2: well the comeback for this and any other government, let

476
00:31:01,853 --> 00:31:02,613
Speaker 2: alone the people.

477
00:31:04,853 --> 00:31:05,093
Speaker 3: Yeah.

478
00:31:05,173 --> 00:31:09,053
Speaker 4: Well, the infrastructure thing has rumbled on course for.

479
00:31:11,093 --> 00:31:12,053
Speaker 3: A long time.

480
00:31:13,573 --> 00:31:21,133
Speaker 4: The most important infrastructure is probably the ones of our cities. Surprisingly,

481
00:31:21,213 --> 00:31:26,133
Speaker 4: some infrastructure projects like highways can be more controversial.

482
00:31:26,453 --> 00:31:28,853
Speaker 3: In America, there's there's this.

483
00:31:28,773 --> 00:31:31,613
Speaker 4: Thing called the highway movement, and they want all these

484
00:31:31,693 --> 00:31:36,933
Speaker 4: interstate highways to be fantastic, and some urban economists have

485
00:31:37,053 --> 00:31:41,973
Speaker 4: been a bit critical of some of that focus. We

486
00:31:42,053 --> 00:31:44,613
Speaker 4: invited the world seating urban economist Ed Glazer out here

487
00:31:44,653 --> 00:31:48,253
Speaker 4: many years ago, and their priority is to get the

488
00:31:48,293 --> 00:31:53,293
Speaker 4: cities right, because the more you have magnificent highways leaving

489
00:31:53,333 --> 00:31:57,093
Speaker 4: the cities, that that can be responsible for sprawl, you know,

490
00:31:57,533 --> 00:31:58,973
Speaker 4: miles out of the cities.

491
00:31:59,053 --> 00:32:03,413
Speaker 3: It can encourage you know, less densification.

492
00:32:03,653 --> 00:32:07,213
Speaker 4: So I think on infrastructure it's you know, the cities

493
00:32:07,413 --> 00:32:08,213
Speaker 4: are vital.

494
00:32:08,693 --> 00:32:11,053
Speaker 3: You know, Auckland's going towards forty percent.

495
00:32:10,933 --> 00:32:17,053
Speaker 4: Of the country's population, and the infrastructure of cities like

496
00:32:17,133 --> 00:32:23,253
Speaker 4: Auckland Christis really has to be great to otherwise if

497
00:32:23,653 --> 00:32:26,973
Speaker 4: our big cities fail, the country will fail.

498
00:32:27,213 --> 00:32:32,173
Speaker 3: So yes, that's you know, that debate has rumbled on for.

499
00:32:32,213 --> 00:32:35,773
Speaker 4: Many years, and I mean, what can I do about it.

500
00:32:36,013 --> 00:32:39,293
Speaker 4: A decade ago we invited the world seeding urban economists.

501
00:32:39,333 --> 00:32:42,693
Speaker 4: He made all of these points, He met all the

502
00:32:42,733 --> 00:32:46,453
Speaker 4: people in government and the council. They ignored every piece

503
00:32:46,493 --> 00:32:50,093
Speaker 4: of advice he gave. He told them a decade ago,

504
00:32:50,213 --> 00:32:54,533
Speaker 4: you've got to introduce toll roads congestion charges. Now what

505
00:32:54,693 --> 00:32:57,653
Speaker 4: ten or twelve years have passed and they're still discussing

506
00:32:57,733 --> 00:33:00,613
Speaker 4: congestion charges and tolls.

507
00:33:00,893 --> 00:33:01,973
Speaker 3: I mean, what more can we do.

508
00:33:02,053 --> 00:33:04,693
Speaker 4: We invite the world's experts out, we sit them in

509
00:33:04,733 --> 00:33:09,813
Speaker 4: front of Labor and national prime ministers, we carry on

510
00:33:09,893 --> 00:33:12,653
Speaker 4: about infrastructure. I used to attend the meetings of the

511
00:33:13,133 --> 00:33:14,053
Speaker 4: NZET Initiative.

512
00:33:14,613 --> 00:33:15,293
Speaker 3: I lobbied.

513
00:33:15,333 --> 00:33:17,573
Speaker 4: I remember when John Key was Prime Minister for more

514
00:33:17,613 --> 00:33:20,493
Speaker 4: of the spending. They all shut me up. They said,

515
00:33:20,493 --> 00:33:22,373
Speaker 4: oh mate, what would you know that? You know, we're

516
00:33:22,413 --> 00:33:25,173
Speaker 4: rebuilding christ Church, so we don't have any money for Auckland.

517
00:33:25,533 --> 00:33:28,293
Speaker 4: I mean this, whether it's National or Labor, I'm just

518
00:33:28,373 --> 00:33:30,133
Speaker 4: I'm just tired of all this bull crap.

519
00:33:30,613 --> 00:33:33,373
Speaker 2: Does that encourage you to think about leaving the country.

520
00:33:34,173 --> 00:33:37,973
Speaker 4: Oh it doesn't. I think it's still a great place

521
00:33:38,133 --> 00:33:42,613
Speaker 4: to live. Look the irony of this country in terms

522
00:33:42,693 --> 00:33:47,893
Speaker 4: of leaving. There is a great almost paradox that we're

523
00:33:47,893 --> 00:33:51,973
Speaker 4: doing badly on productivity, but in terms of these quality

524
00:33:52,013 --> 00:33:56,813
Speaker 4: of life and disease, which I take quite seriously, how

525
00:33:56,893 --> 00:33:59,333
Speaker 4: sort of happy people are in countries. New Zealand has

526
00:33:59,333 --> 00:34:03,293
Speaker 4: typically been in the top ten Kiwi's rank is having

527
00:34:03,533 --> 00:34:08,973
Speaker 4: extremely high levels of overall quality of life, and you know,

528
00:34:09,053 --> 00:34:12,133
Speaker 4: thank god that's the case, even though financially we haven't

529
00:34:12,173 --> 00:34:15,533
Speaker 4: been doing great that the overall quality of life is

530
00:34:15,533 --> 00:34:20,613
Speaker 4: what keeps many of us here, and so I think

531
00:34:20,693 --> 00:34:23,413
Speaker 4: I think we still have a very powerful card to

532
00:34:23,533 --> 00:34:25,693
Speaker 4: play with that overall.

533
00:34:25,373 --> 00:34:26,533
Speaker 3: Quality of life.

534
00:34:26,093 --> 00:34:29,453
Speaker 4: And if and if our cities are made very you know,

535
00:34:29,693 --> 00:34:36,053
Speaker 4: edgy and diverse, livable, but also with great opportunities, they're

536
00:34:36,053 --> 00:34:40,893
Speaker 4: a real melting pot of innovation and hubs of entrepreneurship

537
00:34:40,933 --> 00:34:42,693
Speaker 4: that you know, if we can just get that mix

538
00:34:42,893 --> 00:34:47,253
Speaker 4: right with the lifestyle and the proximity to the beaches

539
00:34:47,293 --> 00:34:50,493
Speaker 4: and the mild climate, I mean, we still have extraordinary

540
00:34:50,613 --> 00:34:51,653
Speaker 4: natural assets.

541
00:34:51,853 --> 00:34:54,253
Speaker 3: So I think I think that is we still have

542
00:34:54,373 --> 00:34:55,173
Speaker 3: reason for hope.

543
00:34:56,973 --> 00:35:00,853
Speaker 2: Well, as somebody said recently, hope isn't the what's the

544
00:35:00,973 --> 00:35:04,813
Speaker 2: term hope? Hope is not a plan anyway, Just speaking

545
00:35:04,813 --> 00:35:08,133
Speaker 2: of people leaving the country. You must know because you

546
00:35:08,133 --> 00:35:13,773
Speaker 2: you teach, you must know the number of graduates who

547
00:35:13,853 --> 00:35:16,133
Speaker 2: are packing their bags and leaving the country.

548
00:35:17,773 --> 00:35:18,773
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's phenomenal.

549
00:35:18,813 --> 00:35:22,693
Speaker 4: I mean most of the ones who've done well typically

550
00:35:22,813 --> 00:35:25,573
Speaker 4: say they wouldn't apply for a job here in a

551
00:35:25,573 --> 00:35:26,733
Speaker 4: million years, so they're off.

552
00:35:27,493 --> 00:35:29,773
Speaker 3: There is an exodus at that level.

553
00:35:30,453 --> 00:35:32,613
Speaker 4: You know, it's not widely reported in the media sort

554
00:35:32,613 --> 00:35:34,813
Speaker 4: of what's driving part of that because it's not even

555
00:35:34,853 --> 00:35:38,893
Speaker 4: after people have finished training here. There's an unprecedented move

556
00:35:38,933 --> 00:35:44,053
Speaker 4: where people are leaving even after finishing up at school.

557
00:35:44,853 --> 00:35:47,933
Speaker 4: So it's not just posh private schools, but if you

558
00:35:48,013 --> 00:35:51,413
Speaker 4: look at from McLean's College and organ rang A Toto College,

559
00:35:51,973 --> 00:35:55,693
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of public and private schools, roughly the

560
00:35:55,733 --> 00:36:00,493
Speaker 4: top twenty students from when they're seven eighteen years old

561
00:36:00,893 --> 00:36:03,133
Speaker 4: are leaving the country at eighteen and that's a very

562
00:36:03,173 --> 00:36:08,373
Speaker 4: young age and they'll probably never come back. And so

563
00:36:08,613 --> 00:36:13,133
Speaker 4: the trend is for increasingly star performers at young ages

564
00:36:13,173 --> 00:36:13,453
Speaker 4: to go.

565
00:36:13,813 --> 00:36:15,253
Speaker 3: One of the reasons for that is.

566
00:36:15,253 --> 00:36:20,733
Speaker 4: I think in the name of egalitarianism, even if you

567
00:36:20,813 --> 00:36:24,493
Speaker 4: do amazingly at school here, it doesn't really help you

568
00:36:25,133 --> 00:36:28,693
Speaker 4: because you can be a star student. That everyone just

569
00:36:28,733 --> 00:36:33,133
Speaker 4: goes to the local training college, the local university. Everyone

570
00:36:33,213 --> 00:36:37,253
Speaker 4: just piles into Victoria or Otago Auckland. Whether you've been

571
00:36:37,333 --> 00:36:42,133
Speaker 4: top of your year or Ducks, whether you're a star athlete, whatever,

572
00:36:42,653 --> 00:36:44,813
Speaker 4: you all just go to the same place. The whole

573
00:36:44,813 --> 00:36:48,773
Speaker 4: point of working hard at school in nearly every country,

574
00:36:48,813 --> 00:36:52,093
Speaker 4: from China to India to England to France the United

575
00:36:52,133 --> 00:36:55,293
Speaker 4: States is it sets you up to go to an

576
00:36:55,333 --> 00:36:58,813
Speaker 4: amazing college. If you're a sports star in the US,

577
00:36:59,133 --> 00:37:03,853
Speaker 4: you get into Stanford, if you're an amazing swimmer. That's

578
00:37:03,973 --> 00:37:08,133
Speaker 4: the game. So that's what incentivizes people here. You bust

579
00:37:08,173 --> 00:37:11,013
Speaker 4: your US at school, you do great, and then in

580
00:37:11,053 --> 00:37:13,493
Speaker 4: the name of egoitarianism, oh, let's just.

581
00:37:14,933 --> 00:37:16,293
Speaker 3: Pretend that never happened.

582
00:37:16,413 --> 00:37:20,493
Speaker 4: Pretend you didn't become a sports star or an academic star.

583
00:37:21,173 --> 00:37:23,253
Speaker 4: You know, and if you did, it's probably because you're

584
00:37:23,253 --> 00:37:26,573
Speaker 4: from a privileged background, So screw you, and you can

585
00:37:26,653 --> 00:37:30,613
Speaker 4: all start the same at university again. Well that I

586
00:37:30,613 --> 00:37:35,013
Speaker 4: think that's creating a massive brain grain for the country

587
00:37:35,453 --> 00:37:39,413
Speaker 4: because these kids are you know, I think everyone knows

588
00:37:39,533 --> 00:37:42,853
Speaker 4: the truth. Now, these are the Ivy League schools in America.

589
00:37:42,933 --> 00:37:47,693
Speaker 4: Universities around the world are targeting our star athletes, our

590
00:37:47,733 --> 00:37:51,093
Speaker 4: star performances, and they're putting them on full scholarships. So

591
00:37:51,213 --> 00:37:53,813
Speaker 4: this isn't happening when they're older. This is happening at eighteen.

592
00:37:53,853 --> 00:37:56,133
Speaker 4: We're losing the cream of the country at eighteen years.

593
00:37:56,133 --> 00:38:00,653
Speaker 2: Well, are we losing many students to elite universities in

594
00:38:00,693 --> 00:38:02,813
Speaker 2: the States, Because I've got to carry, I've got it.

595
00:38:02,933 --> 00:38:03,973
Speaker 2: Are we losing many?

596
00:38:05,453 --> 00:38:09,533
Speaker 4: Well, I can tell you because the schools I see

597
00:38:09,653 --> 00:38:13,053
Speaker 4: are from a range of schools. Now, when they send

598
00:38:13,053 --> 00:38:17,973
Speaker 4: their reports, they list down the number of students who

599
00:38:18,293 --> 00:38:22,093
Speaker 4: are going to overseas universities, and off the top schools

600
00:38:22,093 --> 00:38:25,533
Speaker 4: in Auckland, you'll see roughly the top ten twenty students,

601
00:38:25,573 --> 00:38:27,933
Speaker 4: nearly all of them are going to overseas universities.

602
00:38:28,253 --> 00:38:31,813
Speaker 2: See, I've got to count you a little, and I'll

603
00:38:31,853 --> 00:38:36,733
Speaker 2: be interested in your reaction, because there is a change

604
00:38:37,173 --> 00:38:43,693
Speaker 2: in America that elite colleges are not worth going to. Now,

605
00:38:43,773 --> 00:38:46,613
Speaker 2: I was reading something just a few days ago, and

606
00:38:47,133 --> 00:38:51,333
Speaker 2: let me get this. Right to go to Yale, for instance,

607
00:38:52,093 --> 00:38:55,533
Speaker 2: which will cost you something like six hundred and something

608
00:38:55,573 --> 00:38:59,013
Speaker 2: on thousand dollars. Take that debt if you've got to

609
00:38:59,053 --> 00:39:04,253
Speaker 2: borrow the money, take that debt and work out how

610
00:39:04,333 --> 00:39:06,653
Speaker 2: much of your life is going to be spent repaying

611
00:39:06,693 --> 00:39:11,213
Speaker 2: that there is a there is a swing away is

612
00:39:11,253 --> 00:39:14,893
Speaker 2: what is what I'm suggesting from what I've seen in

613
00:39:14,933 --> 00:39:18,053
Speaker 2: the last few months, that the kids are kids and

614
00:39:18,093 --> 00:39:22,213
Speaker 2: their parents recognizing that the elite universities are now a

615
00:39:22,253 --> 00:39:26,933
Speaker 2: waste of money because of their DEI and and all

616
00:39:26,933 --> 00:39:28,133
Speaker 2: the other alphabet soups.

617
00:39:29,213 --> 00:39:33,373
Speaker 4: Well, the key we kids this top group, this elite group,

618
00:39:34,133 --> 00:39:36,413
Speaker 4: which you know, by the way, for a small country

619
00:39:36,613 --> 00:39:40,933
Speaker 4: like us, it's devastating. They're they're being offered full scholarships.

620
00:39:41,653 --> 00:39:46,973
Speaker 4: They're not paying anything. So if you're a top tennis player,

621
00:39:47,133 --> 00:39:51,613
Speaker 4: swimmer row, you know that they are coming out and

622
00:39:51,653 --> 00:39:55,173
Speaker 4: fully funding you. So I don't think many would turn

623
00:39:55,253 --> 00:39:57,853
Speaker 4: down a full you know, in fact, they've been given

624
00:39:57,893 --> 00:40:00,213
Speaker 4: six hundred thousand by the likes of Yale.

625
00:40:00,893 --> 00:40:02,733
Speaker 2: I wouldn't I would, I wouldn't argue with you on

626
00:40:02,773 --> 00:40:05,373
Speaker 2: that at all. It's it's just it's the home team

627
00:40:05,613 --> 00:40:09,933
Speaker 2: that seems to be seems to be reacting anyway.

628
00:40:10,133 --> 00:40:12,653
Speaker 4: By the way, by the way, a large group the

629
00:40:12,733 --> 00:40:18,013
Speaker 4: majority of piling into the Australian universities. So that's sort

630
00:40:18,013 --> 00:40:22,053
Speaker 4: of a well known fact. They're piling into Melbourne and Sydney.

631
00:40:22,493 --> 00:40:25,653
Speaker 4: Melbourne's got a world sort of roughly top.

632
00:40:25,453 --> 00:40:26,653
Speaker 3: Ten ranked university.

633
00:40:26,653 --> 00:40:28,493
Speaker 4: I don't know, it's sort of sixteenth in the world

634
00:40:28,573 --> 00:40:33,973
Speaker 4: or something, and they've become enormously attractive to Keew students.

635
00:40:33,973 --> 00:40:36,053
Speaker 4: I think Chris Suckson's daughter, he was in the paper

636
00:40:36,213 --> 00:40:40,653
Speaker 4: going to her graduation in Melbourne. That's a very large

637
00:40:40,693 --> 00:40:41,493
Speaker 4: part of the scene.

638
00:40:41,533 --> 00:40:48,613
Speaker 2: Now interesting because there was another little home event one

639
00:40:48,693 --> 00:40:51,253
Speaker 2: of my boys. We went in twenty ten. We went

640
00:40:51,293 --> 00:40:53,973
Speaker 2: to when he was some sort school. At the end,

641
00:40:54,733 --> 00:41:01,413
Speaker 2: we went to Melbourne, we did interviews, he was accepted

642
00:41:01,533 --> 00:41:06,173
Speaker 2: into law and he was accepted into the only house

643
00:41:07,293 --> 00:41:10,933
Speaker 2: that he wanted to stay in to live in color College.

644
00:41:11,453 --> 00:41:13,333
Speaker 2: And we weren't looked at it and it was it

645
00:41:13,373 --> 00:41:16,613
Speaker 2: was stunning. But in the end he decided to go

646
00:41:16,653 --> 00:41:17,333
Speaker 2: to a target.

647
00:41:18,333 --> 00:41:18,693
Speaker 3: Hmmm.

648
00:41:19,493 --> 00:41:20,853
Speaker 2: I think it had I think it had as much

649
00:41:20,893 --> 00:41:22,293
Speaker 2: to do with mates as.

650
00:41:23,053 --> 00:41:24,533
Speaker 4: He might have he might have made he might have

651
00:41:24,613 --> 00:41:28,333
Speaker 4: made a mistake. I mean, I call Otago the party university.

652
00:41:28,533 --> 00:41:31,893
Speaker 4: So I trust that wasn't his motive. No, I can,

653
00:41:32,093 --> 00:41:32,773
Speaker 4: I can.

654
00:41:32,773 --> 00:41:35,133
Speaker 2: Tell you it wasn't, but that doesn't mean he didn't

655
00:41:35,133 --> 00:41:39,493
Speaker 2: fringe on it. Look expanding some of the some of

656
00:41:39,533 --> 00:41:45,093
Speaker 2: the matters that we've already discussed. Infrastructure, for instance, the

657
00:41:45,133 --> 00:41:47,653
Speaker 2: state of the of the biggest city in the country

658
00:41:48,013 --> 00:41:53,333
Speaker 2: is still disastrous, still appalling. I've forgotten now how many

659
00:41:53,893 --> 00:41:58,093
Speaker 2: more years the underground is going to take. I've also

660
00:41:58,173 --> 00:42:01,293
Speaker 2: forgotten what the latest pricing is. All I know is that,

661
00:42:01,813 --> 00:42:05,253
Speaker 2: as expected from the beginning, it's blown out of all

662
00:42:05,333 --> 00:42:08,533
Speaker 2: proportioned to to what it was going to cost in

663
00:42:08,573 --> 00:42:13,733
Speaker 2: the first place. Anybody with any vision and experience watching

664
00:42:14,093 --> 00:42:17,773
Speaker 2: the cost of large scale infrastructure could have could have

665
00:42:17,813 --> 00:42:22,493
Speaker 2: told them that, but it has anyway. They're still in

666
00:42:22,533 --> 00:42:26,773
Speaker 2: a state of flux. They've ruined Queen Street, They've ruined

667
00:42:27,533 --> 00:42:31,373
Speaker 2: Custom Street and Key Street, They've they've screwed up just

668
00:42:31,413 --> 00:42:36,253
Speaker 2: about everything and wild there's been a bit of a

669
00:42:36,293 --> 00:42:41,733
Speaker 2: reprise for Smith and Coe. The big historic store is

670
00:42:41,773 --> 00:42:46,013
Speaker 2: no more and people are not even wanting to live

671
00:42:46,053 --> 00:42:48,653
Speaker 2: in the city now. So where does that Where does

672
00:42:48,693 --> 00:42:51,773
Speaker 2: that leave us with regard to our discussion, Let me

673
00:42:51,773 --> 00:42:57,653
Speaker 2: make a suggestion. Auckland Transport, which I've termed the biggest

674
00:42:57,653 --> 00:43:01,613
Speaker 2: example of the administrative state in this country has has

675
00:43:01,693 --> 00:43:07,293
Speaker 2: contributed to the wreck that Auckland CBD has become. And

676
00:43:07,333 --> 00:43:10,373
Speaker 2: they're still not over doing it. They still want more.

677
00:43:11,093 --> 00:43:16,333
Speaker 4: You see, yeah, look, you know it's it's it's just

678
00:43:16,453 --> 00:43:21,013
Speaker 4: leaves you speechless. The Empire State Building, by the way,

679
00:43:21,853 --> 00:43:24,693
Speaker 4: from before the spot that was in the nineteen twenties

680
00:43:24,693 --> 00:43:29,133
Speaker 4: in America, from before the site even the foundations were dug,

681
00:43:29,293 --> 00:43:30,613
Speaker 4: it was just flat land.

682
00:43:31,613 --> 00:43:33,213
Speaker 3: From the time the.

683
00:43:34,693 --> 00:43:37,653
Speaker 4: Starting date where the foundations were dug to the opening

684
00:43:37,973 --> 00:43:40,813
Speaker 4: of the Empire State Building is a completed building. Do

685
00:43:40,813 --> 00:43:43,293
Speaker 4: you know how that Take a guess how long was that?

686
00:43:45,493 --> 00:43:48,493
Speaker 4: Three years, fifteen months.

687
00:43:49,533 --> 00:43:51,213
Speaker 2: I knew it was now, but I didn't realize it

688
00:43:51,293 --> 00:43:51,653
Speaker 2: that quick.

689
00:43:51,813 --> 00:43:52,093
Speaker 3: Yeah.

690
00:43:52,253 --> 00:43:56,493
Speaker 4: So then you take a look at lovely, our lovely

691
00:43:56,533 --> 00:44:00,453
Speaker 4: Fletcher Building building up the Convention Center, which is about

692
00:44:00,493 --> 00:44:03,253
Speaker 4: one percent zero point one percent the size of the

693
00:44:03,253 --> 00:44:07,533
Speaker 4: Empire State Building coming up for what ten years, coming

694
00:44:07,613 --> 00:44:10,653
Speaker 4: up for ten years. Fletchers can't even put up a

695
00:44:10,773 --> 00:44:14,093
Speaker 4: tiny little building in ten years. And then they blame

696
00:44:14,133 --> 00:44:17,653
Speaker 4: a fire and everyone blames everyone, and it just descends

697
00:44:17,693 --> 00:44:20,893
Speaker 4: into the usual blame game of the leaky home crisis

698
00:44:20,933 --> 00:44:22,213
Speaker 4: and god knows what.

699
00:44:22,973 --> 00:44:25,533
Speaker 3: So it's a disgrace, isn't it.

700
00:44:25,573 --> 00:44:31,133
Speaker 4: And Auckland Transport, I mean, what an organization. Obviously in

701
00:44:31,173 --> 00:44:33,013
Speaker 4: its current form it should be disbanded.

702
00:44:33,053 --> 00:44:35,573
Speaker 3: The mirror is right via the whole board.

703
00:44:36,733 --> 00:44:40,653
Speaker 4: But the catch crow of the American Revolution was no

704
00:44:40,813 --> 00:44:42,653
Speaker 4: taxation without representation.

705
00:44:43,653 --> 00:44:45,013
Speaker 3: So where does it.

706
00:44:45,053 --> 00:44:48,773
Speaker 4: Augan Transport get its money from our taxes, but we're

707
00:44:48,773 --> 00:44:51,733
Speaker 4: not represented by it. It's not responsive to what the

708
00:44:51,813 --> 00:44:54,973
Speaker 4: people want. We all keepe its guts. It's got an

709
00:44:55,053 --> 00:44:59,013
Speaker 4: approval rating of like negative one hundred, and the whole

710
00:44:59,013 --> 00:45:02,613
Speaker 4: thing should go. So either it's put more directly under

711
00:45:02,613 --> 00:45:06,213
Speaker 4: the control, directly under the control of the mayor, the

712
00:45:06,213 --> 00:45:11,173
Speaker 4: council or the minister, and emergency action is taken. You know,

713
00:45:11,293 --> 00:45:17,053
Speaker 4: maybe there is some reason for optimism. Although people critique

714
00:45:17,373 --> 00:45:20,853
Speaker 4: Chrys Luxen for being a CEO and knowing more about

715
00:45:20,893 --> 00:45:23,573
Speaker 4: sort of management maybe than governing the country.

716
00:45:23,613 --> 00:45:25,453
Speaker 3: Maybe it's a good thing.

717
00:45:25,573 --> 00:45:28,253
Speaker 4: Maybe if he can go through all these organizations with

718
00:45:28,373 --> 00:45:32,093
Speaker 4: a fine tooth comb, get rid of the boards.

719
00:45:33,333 --> 00:45:35,973
Speaker 3: You know they've done that in the health end Z.

720
00:45:36,613 --> 00:45:38,693
Speaker 4: And he can look at the way all of these

721
00:45:38,693 --> 00:45:41,093
Speaker 4: things are running like divisions of a company, and he

722
00:45:41,133 --> 00:45:44,853
Speaker 4: can get things running more efficiently and the reporting lines changed.

723
00:45:45,813 --> 00:45:48,893
Speaker 4: Maybe you know, he could prove to be a very

724
00:45:48,893 --> 00:45:52,293
Speaker 4: good leader. Maybe that is what the country does need,

725
00:45:52,773 --> 00:45:57,853
Speaker 4: some you know, competent manager going through the shambles of

726
00:45:57,893 --> 00:46:01,053
Speaker 4: these organizations. If you look at the board of Auckland Transport,

727
00:46:01,573 --> 00:46:03,413
Speaker 4: a lot of them seem to be showing off saying

728
00:46:03,453 --> 00:46:06,293
Speaker 4: we're on the boards of ten other companies and directors.

729
00:46:06,333 --> 00:46:09,413
Speaker 3: I mean, what is this? What is this old style kei.

730
00:46:09,333 --> 00:46:13,133
Speaker 4: We game where you know, at cocktail parties and social

731
00:46:13,173 --> 00:46:15,973
Speaker 4: scenes you say, oh, I'm on the board of ten companies. Well,

732
00:46:15,973 --> 00:46:18,333
Speaker 4: obviously they don't have time for any one of them.

733
00:46:18,733 --> 00:46:22,013
Speaker 4: It's sort of a social game in this country to

734
00:46:22,093 --> 00:46:24,413
Speaker 4: be on these boards. And then you take twenty thirty

735
00:46:24,453 --> 00:46:26,893
Speaker 4: forty fifty thousand for each board, and when you multiply

736
00:46:26,973 --> 00:46:29,333
Speaker 4: it by ten boards, you're on five hundred thousand dollars

737
00:46:29,333 --> 00:46:32,213
Speaker 4: a year for doing nothing. So I think there needs

738
00:46:32,253 --> 00:46:35,573
Speaker 4: to be a really a real change in the way

739
00:46:36,053 --> 00:46:40,173
Speaker 4: that Fletcher's Boards, by the way, is no better Fletcher Buildings.

740
00:46:40,213 --> 00:46:42,573
Speaker 4: So there needs to be a change in the way

741
00:46:42,613 --> 00:46:45,573
Speaker 4: that the governance has done. And let's trust that Luxon

742
00:46:45,693 --> 00:46:49,133
Speaker 4: will take aim at all these places and sort them out.

743
00:46:49,133 --> 00:46:50,133
Speaker 3: In the next couple of years.

744
00:46:50,173 --> 00:46:52,253
Speaker 2: All right, off the back of people leaving the country,

745
00:46:52,293 --> 00:46:58,093
Speaker 2: have the have we got the intellect left behind who

746
00:46:58,133 --> 00:47:00,093
Speaker 2: can achieve the things that you're talking of.

747
00:47:01,813 --> 00:47:03,853
Speaker 4: Well, we've got to fall back on this fact that

748
00:47:03,933 --> 00:47:05,933
Speaker 4: we were in the top ten in the world in

749
00:47:06,093 --> 00:47:10,253
Speaker 4: quality of life, and so we've got that to back

750
00:47:10,333 --> 00:47:14,013
Speaker 4: us up. It's promoting I think, you know, in the

751
00:47:14,013 --> 00:47:15,253
Speaker 4: famous words of John F.

752
00:47:15,333 --> 00:47:17,213
Speaker 3: Kennedy, you know, a new generation.

753
00:47:17,413 --> 00:47:20,293
Speaker 4: We've got to take some risks and bets on the

754
00:47:20,413 --> 00:47:25,293
Speaker 4: new talent coming through and you know, put them in positions,

755
00:47:25,333 --> 00:47:28,933
Speaker 4: often of power, and get the best offer someone who

756
00:47:28,973 --> 00:47:32,133
Speaker 4: might be thinking of leaving the country the top position

757
00:47:32,413 --> 00:47:35,813
Speaker 4: to sort out these sorts of these sorts of places,

758
00:47:36,053 --> 00:47:40,453
Speaker 4: not the usual boring suspects of you know, there's a

759
00:47:40,533 --> 00:47:43,093
Speaker 4: chairman of one of New Zealand's largest public companies that

760
00:47:43,173 --> 00:47:45,293
Speaker 4: I bought a product from. I can't name his name

761
00:47:45,413 --> 00:47:48,453
Speaker 4: or you get sued, but it broke and they blame

762
00:47:48,533 --> 00:47:51,453
Speaker 4: me for it. And I went to cirk and after

763
00:47:51,493 --> 00:47:53,173
Speaker 4: a month or two I got in touch with the

764
00:47:53,293 --> 00:47:58,573
Speaker 4: chairman of this major public company and virtually he's actually uncontactable.

765
00:47:58,653 --> 00:48:01,253
Speaker 4: And then I discovered where he's living he's living in Wanaka,

766
00:48:01,373 --> 00:48:05,133
Speaker 4: for God's sake, skiing half the day, barting around. I mean,

767
00:48:05,453 --> 00:48:08,293
Speaker 4: is this the new Zealand? We want this old stuff

768
00:48:08,613 --> 00:48:11,813
Speaker 4: thing where you're on the boards of twenty companies, nothing's

769
00:48:11,893 --> 00:48:16,733
Speaker 4: running properly, you're basing yourself online and Wanaka there. I

770
00:48:16,773 --> 00:48:19,653
Speaker 4: think there does need an attitude and culture shift and

771
00:48:19,773 --> 00:48:22,893
Speaker 4: let's trust that Chris Hucksen will try to sort it out.

772
00:48:23,733 --> 00:48:26,973
Speaker 2: Watch this space very carefully. There's a couple of things

773
00:48:26,973 --> 00:48:28,893
Speaker 2: that I want to I want to spring on you

774
00:48:30,613 --> 00:48:33,493
Speaker 2: and if it's if it's not your field, then just

775
00:48:33,733 --> 00:48:36,733
Speaker 2: say so. But I'm first, first of all intrigued with

776
00:48:37,973 --> 00:48:41,133
Speaker 2: what your feelings might be about artificial intelligence.

777
00:48:43,653 --> 00:48:49,613
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, my feelings are that it is is probably

778
00:48:49,613 --> 00:48:52,093
Speaker 4: going to be a revolutionary technology. I'll tell you my

779
00:48:52,213 --> 00:48:57,253
Speaker 4: sources for this. I met about six or seven years

780
00:48:57,253 --> 00:49:00,493
Speaker 4: ago Shane leg who's a key we born in Rotarua,

781
00:49:01,733 --> 00:49:07,293
Speaker 4: who's in charge of Google's worldwide efforts to.

782
00:49:09,093 --> 00:49:10,653
Speaker 3: Advanced artificial intelligence.

783
00:49:10,773 --> 00:49:14,933
Speaker 4: And Shane Legg's company, deep Mind, was really the company

784
00:49:14,973 --> 00:49:18,693
Speaker 4: that started the AI revolution. So it's remarkable that we

785
00:49:18,813 --> 00:49:21,973
Speaker 4: have a kiwi. He sold that to Google one hundred

786
00:49:22,013 --> 00:49:25,333
Speaker 4: million pounds. It was backed by Peter Teal, who's a

787
00:49:25,333 --> 00:49:29,093
Speaker 4: New Zealand citizen. He was the first investor, so leg

788
00:49:29,173 --> 00:49:32,453
Speaker 4: is part of that musk sort of Teal group.

789
00:49:33,013 --> 00:49:35,333
Speaker 3: He's a classic case of a talented.

790
00:49:34,973 --> 00:49:39,733
Speaker 4: Kiwi who is not returning to the country and is

791
00:49:39,773 --> 00:49:44,773
Speaker 4: based in London. But obviously he's no fool, and he's

792
00:49:45,493 --> 00:49:50,293
Speaker 4: absolutely convinced that this is a revolutionary technology, which, ironically,

793
00:49:50,333 --> 00:49:53,493
Speaker 4: going back to your productivity issue, if it is a

794
00:49:53,533 --> 00:49:56,733
Speaker 4: lot of those issue issues could melt away to the

795
00:49:56,813 --> 00:50:01,653
Speaker 4: extent it transforms our lives. The other point of view,

796
00:50:01,653 --> 00:50:03,333
Speaker 4: there is a counterpoint of view. I have a friend

797
00:50:03,413 --> 00:50:05,933
Speaker 4: James Lowry, who was sort of another example of our

798
00:50:05,933 --> 00:50:08,813
Speaker 4: brain drain. He was ducks of his school all the

799
00:50:08,813 --> 00:50:11,933
Speaker 4: way through New Zealand and then he left. He lives

800
00:50:11,933 --> 00:50:16,133
Speaker 4: in New York, also working for Google, and I asked

801
00:50:16,173 --> 00:50:19,053
Speaker 4: him about this question because he comes out here a lot.

802
00:50:19,733 --> 00:50:22,493
Speaker 4: He was a bit more skeptical. He said that many

803
00:50:22,493 --> 00:50:24,973
Speaker 4: people are using it more as a toy. He used

804
00:50:24,973 --> 00:50:28,213
Speaker 4: the word toy to describe it, and it's still yet

805
00:50:28,253 --> 00:50:33,253
Speaker 4: to prove its sort of practical applicability. And I see

806
00:50:33,253 --> 00:50:35,893
Speaker 4: a certain resonance with what James Sarry is saying that.

807
00:50:36,013 --> 00:50:37,773
Speaker 4: You know, many people are saying, oh, isn't it cool

808
00:50:37,813 --> 00:50:41,013
Speaker 4: what AI can do? But it's a bit has that aspect.

809
00:50:41,173 --> 00:50:43,293
Speaker 4: Isn't it fun? It's like a game, It's like a toy.

810
00:50:44,013 --> 00:50:47,853
Speaker 4: So you know, you've got Shane leg and this other

811
00:50:47,893 --> 00:50:51,653
Speaker 4: point of view. But certainly it's a shame New Zealand

812
00:50:51,733 --> 00:50:55,253
Speaker 4: can't get more involved in this technology through people like

813
00:50:57,293 --> 00:51:00,413
Speaker 4: Shane and also Peter tal But of course the christ

814
00:51:00,493 --> 00:51:03,093
Speaker 4: Church Judge went and told Eel that she didn't want

815
00:51:03,133 --> 00:51:05,893
Speaker 4: to building houses in the South Island and to you know,

816
00:51:05,973 --> 00:51:09,053
Speaker 4: go jump in Lake Wanaka and you know what a

817
00:51:09,173 --> 00:51:11,973
Speaker 4: jerk he was for trying to build the most environmentally

818
00:51:11,973 --> 00:51:14,293
Speaker 4: friendly house in the South Island. So being a libertarian,

819
00:51:14,333 --> 00:51:17,053
Speaker 4: I don't think he'll spend much time here. So good

820
00:51:17,053 --> 00:51:20,213
Speaker 4: on the christ Church judge he decided to you know,

821
00:51:20,493 --> 00:51:21,373
Speaker 4: reject his house.

822
00:51:21,853 --> 00:51:26,333
Speaker 2: Well there's another matter we could have discussed. But activist

823
00:51:26,453 --> 00:51:33,693
Speaker 2: activist judges, I want to just counter you gently with

824
00:51:33,853 --> 00:51:37,813
Speaker 2: something I read this morning. We continually hear from globalists

825
00:51:37,813 --> 00:51:40,853
Speaker 2: at the World Economic Forum and other elitist institutions that

826
00:51:41,493 --> 00:51:46,293
Speaker 2: AI is the catalyst for the Fourth Industrial Revolution, a

827
00:51:46,373 --> 00:51:51,773
Speaker 2: technological singularity that will supposedly change every aspect of our society. Forever,

828
00:51:52,373 --> 00:51:54,733
Speaker 2: I keep waiting for the moment that AI does something

829
00:51:54,813 --> 00:51:57,733
Speaker 2: significant in terms of advancing human knowledge or making our

830
00:51:57,733 --> 00:52:01,573
Speaker 2: lives better. The moment never comes. In fact, the globalists

831
00:52:01,653 --> 00:52:05,893
Speaker 2: keep moving the goldpost for what AI really is. I

832
00:52:05,933 --> 00:52:12,213
Speaker 2: would note that the w EF zealots like Juvil Harari

833
00:52:13,133 --> 00:52:15,973
Speaker 2: talk about AI like it is the rise of an

834
00:52:16,013 --> 00:52:22,853
Speaker 2: all powerful deity. Yet Harari has also recently downplayed AI

835
00:52:23,053 --> 00:52:28,493
Speaker 2: as a sentient intelligence. He argues that it does not

836
00:52:28,693 --> 00:52:31,853
Speaker 2: need to achieve self awareness or consciousness in order to

837
00:52:31,853 --> 00:52:35,493
Speaker 2: be considered a super super being or living entity. He

838
00:52:35,573 --> 00:52:38,693
Speaker 2: even suggests that the popular image of a terminator like

839
00:52:38,773 --> 00:52:45,693
Speaker 2: AI with individual agency and desire is not a legitimate expectation.

840
00:52:46,373 --> 00:52:50,053
Speaker 2: In other words, AI as it stands today is nothing

841
00:52:50,093 --> 00:52:53,853
Speaker 2: more than a mindless algorithm, and thus it is not AI.

842
00:52:54,493 --> 00:52:59,453
Speaker 2: He goes on for a few pages, what do you think.

843
00:53:00,733 --> 00:53:06,053
Speaker 4: Well, there is a debate about this, of course going around,

844
00:53:07,053 --> 00:53:11,173
Speaker 4: and because it's so new, it is still a debate.

845
00:53:11,293 --> 00:53:14,413
Speaker 4: We don't of course, we don't know at least if

846
00:53:14,413 --> 00:53:17,093
Speaker 4: you fall back on we fall back on our economics.

847
00:53:17,453 --> 00:53:21,733
Speaker 4: It's not the first time there's been the possibility of

848
00:53:21,733 --> 00:53:24,973
Speaker 4: a huge change in technology, because one of the most

849
00:53:25,013 --> 00:53:29,213
Speaker 4: studied episodes in the subject of the Industrial Revolution in

850
00:53:29,253 --> 00:53:32,853
Speaker 4: England and you know, in the seventeenth eighteenth century, and

851
00:53:33,333 --> 00:53:38,893
Speaker 4: that did transform life, you know, so that the Industrial

852
00:53:38,933 --> 00:53:42,733
Speaker 4: Age is obviously a big part of our history. It

853
00:53:42,773 --> 00:53:47,253
Speaker 4: turned Britain into the world's leading superpower of its time.

854
00:53:47,373 --> 00:53:51,573
Speaker 4: That was really responsible for the British Empire. It had

855
00:53:51,613 --> 00:53:55,133
Speaker 4: the largest GDP in the world, and the steam engine

856
00:53:55,133 --> 00:53:59,973
Speaker 4: and all those inventions did transform a human life. So

857
00:54:00,093 --> 00:54:05,453
Speaker 4: these things do happen. And you know, if you listen

858
00:54:05,573 --> 00:54:08,933
Speaker 4: to I've listened to. My source is shape League, who

859
00:54:08,933 --> 00:54:12,133
Speaker 4: I spoke to a number of years ago, and he's

860
00:54:12,173 --> 00:54:18,253
Speaker 4: convinced it amounts to a revolution. He's absolutely convinced. And

861
00:54:18,293 --> 00:54:21,173
Speaker 4: he there's a book called Soulful Machines. I think on

862
00:54:21,213 --> 00:54:23,853
Speaker 4: the topic of what you were saying of can these machines.

863
00:54:23,453 --> 00:54:24,493
Speaker 3: Have a soul?

864
00:54:25,093 --> 00:54:27,573
Speaker 4: There is a I'll try to fall back on the

865
00:54:27,613 --> 00:54:32,933
Speaker 4: debate because heck, you know, it's not my field of expertise.

866
00:54:33,053 --> 00:54:36,453
Speaker 4: On specifically a bit more the economic consequences. There's a

867
00:54:36,533 --> 00:54:41,573
Speaker 4: chap that in America who is sort of the big

868
00:54:41,653 --> 00:54:46,173
Speaker 4: name economist works in this field of technological progress and change,

869
00:54:46,213 --> 00:54:52,653
Speaker 4: and a guy Darren as Moglin's. He says he's concerned

870
00:54:52,693 --> 00:54:55,053
Speaker 4: about AI because he said they seem to be designing

871
00:54:55,053 --> 00:54:59,773
Speaker 4: it to replicate what humans do. And he says, the

872
00:54:59,813 --> 00:55:03,213
Speaker 4: thing is technology should really be supporting what we do.

873
00:55:04,293 --> 00:55:08,493
Speaker 4: It should be making human life better and enabling human

874
00:55:08,613 --> 00:55:12,653
Speaker 4: to be more productive. And when humans work with machines

875
00:55:12,693 --> 00:55:15,453
Speaker 4: that make them more productive, that leads to higher wages

876
00:55:15,853 --> 00:55:19,973
Speaker 4: because your labor productivity goes up the more capital you're

877
00:55:20,013 --> 00:55:22,853
Speaker 4: working with. It enhances what you can do as a human.

878
00:55:23,493 --> 00:55:25,813
Speaker 4: And he doesn't like the idea that sort of the

879
00:55:25,853 --> 00:55:30,253
Speaker 4: AI people are trying to not complement what humans do,

880
00:55:30,333 --> 00:55:33,893
Speaker 4: but substitute for them, almost like say, you know, sucked in,

881
00:55:34,573 --> 00:55:38,893
Speaker 4: you're a human, but here this machine can talk better

882
00:55:38,933 --> 00:55:42,653
Speaker 4: than you, write better than you. And even the robots,

883
00:55:42,653 --> 00:55:44,293
Speaker 4: like the Terminator, they look like you.

884
00:55:44,853 --> 00:55:47,053
Speaker 3: And he's sort of a bit disturbed, like what's.

885
00:55:46,893 --> 00:55:51,213
Speaker 4: Going on where they're trying to copy and substitute for

886
00:55:51,333 --> 00:55:55,373
Speaker 4: what humans do, which could make more humans unemployed. We

887
00:55:55,453 --> 00:56:00,773
Speaker 4: asked another economist about eight years ago called Larry Popley

888
00:56:00,853 --> 00:56:04,893
Speaker 4: cough from America, and you may think it's a bit funny,

889
00:56:04,893 --> 00:56:11,693
Speaker 4: but he made this comment on what technology can do where.

890
00:56:10,133 --> 00:56:11,973
Speaker 3: By comparing humans with horses.

891
00:56:12,333 --> 00:56:15,333
Speaker 4: Apparently there were apparently one hundred years ago there was

892
00:56:15,373 --> 00:56:18,773
Speaker 4: something like a million working horses. No, I think tens

893
00:56:18,853 --> 00:56:22,013
Speaker 4: tens of millions of working horses in America. Now there

894
00:56:22,013 --> 00:56:25,253
Speaker 4: are only a few hundred thousand, because once they invented

895
00:56:25,253 --> 00:56:28,333
Speaker 4: the car and all these sort of technologies, there was

896
00:56:28,373 --> 00:56:29,613
Speaker 4: nothing for horses.

897
00:56:29,253 --> 00:56:30,053
Speaker 3: To do anymore.

898
00:56:30,133 --> 00:56:32,493
Speaker 4: So there's only a handful of horses in America that

899
00:56:32,573 --> 00:56:35,973
Speaker 4: are mainly race horses, and there's no other use for

900
00:56:36,053 --> 00:56:39,373
Speaker 4: a horse. And he threw up the side here that

901
00:56:39,533 --> 00:56:42,253
Speaker 4: maybe we could go the way of horses. So this

902
00:56:42,733 --> 00:56:45,333
Speaker 4: is subject to sort of wild debate and conjecture.

903
00:56:46,333 --> 00:56:50,573
Speaker 2: Then I think finally you mentioned the well, we mentioned

904
00:56:50,573 --> 00:56:52,613
Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank, and you mentioned the governor, et cetera.

905
00:56:53,253 --> 00:56:56,173
Speaker 2: I want to give you my take very briefly on

906
00:56:58,413 --> 00:57:03,053
Speaker 2: central bank digital currencies. And you'd be aware, of course

907
00:57:03,093 --> 00:57:07,693
Speaker 2: that the bank announced that it's goaling at for twenty thirty,

908
00:57:09,533 --> 00:57:12,813
Speaker 2: But don't worry about it. It'll be okay because it

909
00:57:12,813 --> 00:57:15,253
Speaker 2: will still be cash available and you'll still be running

910
00:57:15,253 --> 00:57:22,653
Speaker 2: in parallel. Now, anybody who believes that because the only

911
00:57:22,693 --> 00:57:27,053
Speaker 2: time we've heard that is after that crash a few

912
00:57:27,053 --> 00:57:32,973
Speaker 2: weeks back, and of course that provided a beautiful rebuttal

913
00:57:33,133 --> 00:57:39,653
Speaker 2: of getting forgetting a central bank digital currency that they

914
00:57:39,853 --> 00:57:43,533
Speaker 2: own and control, and therefore they will have control over

915
00:57:43,853 --> 00:57:46,253
Speaker 2: each and every one of our lives in the end.

916
00:57:47,413 --> 00:57:51,333
Speaker 2: Now that's my feeling. Freedom is the most important thing

917
00:57:51,653 --> 00:57:54,293
Speaker 2: in our lives. Without freedom, forget it. It's all over

918
00:57:54,653 --> 00:58:00,293
Speaker 2: in my opinion. And I don't trust Adrian Orr or

919
00:58:00,333 --> 00:58:03,493
Speaker 2: the next bloke to follow, or the bank itself in general,

920
00:58:03,653 --> 00:58:08,013
Speaker 2: or politicians not to utilize in particularly in cases of

921
00:58:08,053 --> 00:58:12,653
Speaker 2: a agency, the gradual and then sped up introduction of

922
00:58:12,693 --> 00:58:14,933
Speaker 2: a single currency that they control.

923
00:58:16,333 --> 00:58:19,693
Speaker 4: Your thoughts, Yeah, I'm a great fan of cash too,

924
00:58:19,773 --> 00:58:23,013
Speaker 4: I mean, like you, it's sort of highly disturbing the

925
00:58:23,693 --> 00:58:28,493
Speaker 4: idea that the government and my bank and the accountants

926
00:58:28,653 --> 00:58:31,373
Speaker 4: virtually know what time you go to the toilet each

927
00:58:31,413 --> 00:58:33,893
Speaker 4: day because they can trace that you've been to the

928
00:58:33,933 --> 00:58:37,733
Speaker 4: supermarket and bought some toilet paper, and every single thing

929
00:58:38,253 --> 00:58:41,133
Speaker 4: you do is listed on your godamn you know, set

930
00:58:41,173 --> 00:58:45,293
Speaker 4: of internet transactions. So essentially there's never been a greater

931
00:58:45,373 --> 00:58:50,213
Speaker 4: loss of privacy as you know, ever, because of this

932
00:58:50,413 --> 00:58:54,533
Speaker 4: tracking of of of all of our habits and and

933
00:58:54,573 --> 00:58:57,093
Speaker 4: that's the great sort of story of our age. The

934
00:58:57,133 --> 00:59:03,533
Speaker 4: internet companies have available unprecedented amounts of data and know

935
00:59:03,613 --> 00:59:06,893
Speaker 4: exactly what what what what we're up to. So you know,

936
00:59:07,373 --> 00:59:10,173
Speaker 4: those are my thoughts too. That ASH is very important.

937
00:59:10,173 --> 00:59:14,133
Speaker 4: The Reserve Bank has said that it reports maintaining ASH.

938
00:59:14,173 --> 00:59:18,373
Speaker 4: As you said, the digital currency is quite a techy

939
00:59:18,533 --> 00:59:23,573
Speaker 4: area in economics. Our trading banks West Pakay and z

940
00:59:24,613 --> 00:59:30,053
Speaker 4: already they have accounts at the Reserve Bank and they're

941
00:59:30,093 --> 00:59:33,373
Speaker 4: called the settlements accounts, and that essentially is a digital

942
00:59:33,413 --> 00:59:36,773
Speaker 4: currency for them. That's where they hold instead of physical

943
00:59:36,853 --> 00:59:40,053
Speaker 4: cash that they're given these accounts that they hold at

944
00:59:40,053 --> 00:59:43,013
Speaker 4: the central bank and the reserve banks. Proposing we can

945
00:59:43,173 --> 00:59:47,933
Speaker 4: essentially all old accounts like the trading banks directly.

946
00:59:48,013 --> 00:59:48,973
Speaker 3: At the reserve bank.

947
00:59:49,053 --> 00:59:52,493
Speaker 4: And maybe that has benefits because then where in set

948
00:59:52,493 --> 00:59:54,413
Speaker 4: our accounts at Westpac and Westpac.

949
00:59:54,093 --> 00:59:56,573
Speaker 3: Bankrupted, we're up that we could be up the creek.

950
00:59:57,173 --> 01:00:00,133
Speaker 4: But if our funds are held at the Reserve Bank,

951
01:00:00,653 --> 01:00:05,293
Speaker 4: it's safer. So but as you say, the risk is

952
01:00:05,973 --> 01:00:09,053
Speaker 4: if that proves to be wildly popular, maybe it is

953
01:00:09,093 --> 01:00:11,653
Speaker 4: a move that fear and fewer people actually sort of

954
01:00:11,693 --> 01:00:13,813
Speaker 4: even want to have cash, and then with so few

955
01:00:13,853 --> 01:00:18,493
Speaker 4: people paying with cash, it just does gradually disappear, So

956
01:00:18,573 --> 01:00:19,373
Speaker 4: that could happen.

957
01:00:20,413 --> 01:00:22,613
Speaker 2: I'm very pleased to say that I'm running into more

958
01:00:22,653 --> 01:00:26,333
Speaker 2: people who are saying I'm spending cash more than I

959
01:00:26,413 --> 01:00:29,813
Speaker 2: used to do because I don't want this coming my way.

960
01:00:30,493 --> 01:00:34,693
Speaker 4: It's interesting, Well, well, of course the banks, if there

961
01:00:34,773 --> 01:00:39,093
Speaker 4: is a conspiracy. Of course, the banks probably hate themselves

962
01:00:39,173 --> 01:00:45,013
Speaker 4: the idea of cash, because if all key we simply

963
01:00:45,053 --> 01:00:47,613
Speaker 4: went to the bank and took out they're spending money

964
01:00:47,613 --> 01:00:51,453
Speaker 4: for the week from their check account and just spent

965
01:00:51,493 --> 01:00:54,773
Speaker 4: the cash, they wouldn't be paying this godamn rip off

966
01:00:54,853 --> 01:00:58,853
Speaker 4: one or two percent of this payWave a scandal.

967
01:00:59,253 --> 01:01:02,333
Speaker 3: It's gripping the nation that they think it's.

968
01:01:02,173 --> 01:01:06,093
Speaker 4: Convenient that every time you flash your card you transfer

969
01:01:06,213 --> 01:01:07,613
Speaker 4: a chunk of your money.

970
01:01:07,293 --> 01:01:08,053
Speaker 3: To the banks.

971
01:01:08,493 --> 01:01:11,133
Speaker 4: Just love you paying with plastic and if you paid

972
01:01:11,213 --> 01:01:14,493
Speaker 4: with good old fashioned cash, should be saving a lot

973
01:01:14,493 --> 01:01:15,733
Speaker 4: of your money.

974
01:01:16,253 --> 01:01:20,573
Speaker 2: What a delightful idea, Robert. I've got to say, it's

975
01:01:20,573 --> 01:01:24,573
Speaker 2: been a very very pleasant period talking with you, and

976
01:01:25,053 --> 01:01:29,213
Speaker 2: maybe we'll do it again sometime. I can only imagine

977
01:01:29,533 --> 01:01:34,253
Speaker 2: that when when there is a worthwhile when there is

978
01:01:34,293 --> 01:01:40,973
Speaker 2: a worthwhile matter that deserves your attention. You'll say yes, yes,

979
01:01:41,093 --> 01:01:44,973
Speaker 2: of course I commit now, as long as you're not

980
01:01:45,013 --> 01:01:49,853
Speaker 2: committed there, yeah, committed here all right. I appreciate it

981
01:01:49,893 --> 01:01:51,493
Speaker 2: was very enjoyable and very informative.

982
01:01:51,533 --> 01:01:53,173
Speaker 3: Very good, Thank you. Thanks Robert.

983
01:02:11,493 --> 01:02:13,853
Speaker 2: Now into the mail room for podcast two hundred and

984
01:02:13,893 --> 01:02:15,853
Speaker 2: fifty one. Guess who's here, miss producer?

985
01:02:16,133 --> 01:02:16,413
Speaker 5: Late?

986
01:02:17,173 --> 01:02:17,893
Speaker 6: How the devil?

987
01:02:17,933 --> 01:02:18,173
Speaker 4: Are you?

988
01:02:18,533 --> 01:02:18,973
Speaker 3: Very good?

989
01:02:19,613 --> 01:02:22,853
Speaker 2: We record this at no particular time. It depends on when.

990
01:02:22,693 --> 01:02:25,333
Speaker 5: I can find five minutes out of my busy schedule.

991
01:02:25,493 --> 01:02:28,813
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, when we can coincide. Let's put it that way.

992
01:02:29,453 --> 01:02:33,213
Speaker 5: So, so it's mid afternoon on a beautiful sunny day.

993
01:02:34,573 --> 01:02:38,693
Speaker 2: Hold it z, missus producer. It's been a busy week actually,

994
01:02:39,053 --> 01:02:41,653
Speaker 2: so let's go. Why don't you you?

995
01:02:42,213 --> 01:02:46,653
Speaker 5: I shall late, and Daniel says, I have finally found

996
01:02:46,693 --> 01:02:50,093
Speaker 5: the time to listen to episode two fifty and just

997
01:02:50,173 --> 01:02:53,133
Speaker 5: finish your interview with Andrew Hollis. You made the suggestion

998
01:02:53,213 --> 01:02:55,573
Speaker 5: that someone might be happy to buy a few copies

999
01:02:55,613 --> 01:02:59,653
Speaker 5: of their books for interested schools. Well you can count

1000
01:02:59,653 --> 01:03:02,493
Speaker 5: me in for one thousand dollars contribution. Just let me

1001
01:03:02,533 --> 01:03:04,493
Speaker 5: know where to send it, or feel free to put

1002
01:03:04,493 --> 01:03:06,773
Speaker 5: me in touch with the school principle and I can

1003
01:03:06,813 --> 01:03:08,773
Speaker 5: place an order on their behalf.

1004
01:03:09,013 --> 01:03:09,893
Speaker 6: Is that nice of her?

1005
01:03:10,093 --> 01:03:11,293
Speaker 2: Isn't that really nice?

1006
01:03:11,853 --> 01:03:15,133
Speaker 5: Would be great, he says, to see schools finally take

1007
01:03:15,173 --> 01:03:18,933
Speaker 5: a critical thinking approach to climate change and many other subjects.

1008
01:03:19,653 --> 01:03:23,413
Speaker 5: Thanks for the suggestion and as always the compelling guests,

1009
01:03:23,613 --> 01:03:28,093
Speaker 5: and Daniel gives you his kind regards, and then he says, PS,

1010
01:03:28,093 --> 01:03:30,773
Speaker 5: if you ever do consider hanging up the microphone, and

1011
01:03:30,813 --> 01:03:33,533
Speaker 5: I hope you don't for a very long time, please

1012
01:03:33,613 --> 01:03:36,173
Speaker 5: consider bringing on a replacement to try and keep your

1013
01:03:36,213 --> 01:03:39,733
Speaker 5: podcast going. We can't afford to lose voices like yours.

1014
01:03:39,933 --> 01:03:41,053
Speaker 5: All power to you.

1015
01:03:41,533 --> 01:03:44,693
Speaker 2: Is that nice, Daniel. That's very generous of you on

1016
01:03:44,813 --> 01:03:47,813
Speaker 2: all fronts. Now, I'll let you into a little secret.

1017
01:03:48,893 --> 01:03:52,853
Speaker 2: We almost bankrupted you because what you just heard was

1018
01:03:52,933 --> 01:03:56,373
Speaker 2: the second take. Now we don't do that normally, but

1019
01:03:56,613 --> 01:03:59,733
Speaker 2: on this occasion we did because when missus producer read

1020
01:03:59,733 --> 01:04:02,253
Speaker 2: it first time, she committed you to one hundred.

1021
01:04:02,053 --> 01:04:07,213
Speaker 5: Thousand, Lake said, how much. That's very generous. So sorry

1022
01:04:07,213 --> 01:04:09,973
Speaker 5: about that, Daniel. Nearly nearly bankrupted.

1023
01:04:09,453 --> 01:04:15,973
Speaker 2: Jew So another along not dissimilar alliance from Craig. I

1024
01:04:16,013 --> 01:04:18,773
Speaker 2: am keenly listening to podcast two hundred and fifty with

1025
01:04:18,893 --> 01:04:22,173
Speaker 2: Andrew Hollis on climate change. Like Andrew, I see the

1026
01:04:22,173 --> 01:04:25,533
Speaker 2: bigger picture on the long term climate change fraud and

1027
01:04:25,773 --> 01:04:31,373
Speaker 2: conclude that if I cannot understand how stupid and gullible politicians, media, scientists,

1028
01:04:31,413 --> 01:04:35,293
Speaker 2: and corporates are, I simply do not understand the human condition.

1029
01:04:36,173 --> 01:04:39,573
Speaker 2: I found some enlightenment recently in a book that made

1030
01:04:39,573 --> 01:04:43,813
Speaker 2: me realize that the wholesale coercion of science is nothing new.

1031
01:04:44,493 --> 01:04:49,093
Speaker 2: The book is Hitler's Scientists by John Cornwall, published two

1032
01:04:49,093 --> 01:04:53,213
Speaker 2: thousand and three. Cornwell's book details science and politics in

1033
01:04:53,253 --> 01:04:57,453
Speaker 2: Germany and Europe from the late eighteen hundreds through until

1034
01:04:57,453 --> 01:05:01,493
Speaker 2: the end of World War II. I'm not naturally into

1035
01:05:01,493 --> 01:05:05,013
Speaker 2: the boring topics of physics, eugenics, and psychiatry, but I've

1036
01:05:05,013 --> 01:05:08,653
Speaker 2: found the book a fore telling revelation of our modern world.

1037
01:05:09,493 --> 01:05:13,133
Speaker 2: Those that refused to bow to the prevailing sentiments were

1038
01:05:13,173 --> 01:05:16,893
Speaker 2: ostracized and canceled. The lucky ones left their homeland for

1039
01:05:16,973 --> 01:05:20,893
Speaker 2: other continents Einstein, for example. It makes me realize that

1040
01:05:21,093 --> 01:05:26,493
Speaker 2: modern science has never been unbiased. It has always been

1041
01:05:26,573 --> 01:05:32,293
Speaker 2: based on money, politics, and ideology. We would it's modern science.

1042
01:05:32,293 --> 01:05:34,853
Speaker 2: He is talking about We would do well to take

1043
01:05:34,893 --> 01:05:38,813
Speaker 2: that into account when scientists revealed their decrees and then

1044
01:05:38,893 --> 01:05:43,133
Speaker 2: claim that the science is settled. Follow the money selling

1045
01:05:43,133 --> 01:05:47,773
Speaker 2: your scientific soul to pursue the almighty funding dollar and

1046
01:05:47,893 --> 01:05:52,293
Speaker 2: plumb university chairs is nothing new. Neither is cancel culture,

1047
01:05:52,373 --> 01:05:57,053
Speaker 2: media bias and racial ideology unique to our current scientific, corporate,

1048
01:05:57,093 --> 01:06:00,373
Speaker 2: and political situation in New Zealand. We would do well

1049
01:06:00,453 --> 01:06:05,373
Speaker 2: to look at history without cringing and observed where other civilizations,

1050
01:06:05,373 --> 01:06:09,813
Speaker 2: including pre war Germany, went wrong. Congratulations on fifty years

1051
01:06:09,853 --> 01:06:13,293
Speaker 2: of work. Unfortunately, I think your work and vital role

1052
01:06:13,453 --> 01:06:18,413
Speaker 2: is unfinished. Z I relax and enjoy the riots.

1053
01:06:18,893 --> 01:06:19,253
Speaker 6: I think.

1054
01:06:19,733 --> 01:06:22,173
Speaker 5: I think lateron you're up for another couple of years

1055
01:06:22,173 --> 01:06:25,413
Speaker 5: of this. So are you not so well? We're hoping

1056
01:06:25,453 --> 01:06:26,373
Speaker 5: that you'll continue on.

1057
01:06:26,573 --> 01:06:27,013
Speaker 2: Will see.

1058
01:06:27,973 --> 01:06:31,333
Speaker 5: Laton Christopher says, I enjoyed your interview with Brian Leyland

1059
01:06:31,373 --> 01:06:34,453
Speaker 5: in podcast two fifty and am delighted that you discussed

1060
01:06:34,573 --> 01:06:38,853
Speaker 5: nuclear power with him. During an earlier podcast. You suggested

1061
01:06:38,853 --> 01:06:42,013
Speaker 5: to him that New Zealanders weren't yet ready for nuclear power,

1062
01:06:42,093 --> 01:06:45,093
Speaker 5: and he said, wait until the lights go out. If

1063
01:06:45,733 --> 01:06:48,173
Speaker 5: not yet at that stage, we must be very close

1064
01:06:49,093 --> 01:06:53,733
Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty nine, Christopher says the Electricity Department had

1065
01:06:53,773 --> 01:06:56,773
Speaker 5: plans to build a nuclear power station at Oyster Point

1066
01:06:56,813 --> 01:07:00,013
Speaker 5: on the Kaipra Harbor, plans that were deferred because Maui

1067
01:07:00,093 --> 01:07:03,653
Speaker 5: gas became available. It will take us a decade to

1068
01:07:03,733 --> 01:07:06,773
Speaker 5: plan for and build a nuclear power station, so we

1069
01:07:06,893 --> 01:07:10,413
Speaker 5: must start now importing natural gas in the meantime and

1070
01:07:10,453 --> 01:07:14,733
Speaker 5: doing everything possible to stop the insanity of building more renewables.

1071
01:07:15,413 --> 01:07:18,333
Speaker 5: In addition to all their other issues, wind and solar

1072
01:07:18,373 --> 01:07:22,253
Speaker 5: farms are destroying the visual landscape and creating an enormous

1073
01:07:22,293 --> 01:07:26,573
Speaker 5: dismantling and disposal problem when they're short working lives end

1074
01:07:27,853 --> 01:07:30,333
Speaker 5: actually late. And I must just say, my daughters and

1075
01:07:30,373 --> 01:07:35,133
Speaker 5: I spent five days in costs and Greece a few

1076
01:07:35,133 --> 01:07:40,973
Speaker 5: weeks ago and lying on the beach looking up at

1077
01:07:41,013 --> 01:07:46,053
Speaker 5: the mountains behind us. There were wind turbines and it

1078
01:07:46,213 --> 01:07:51,013
Speaker 5: was quite the juxtaposition in views, really, you know, just

1079
01:07:51,053 --> 01:07:53,893
Speaker 5: to see these great, big things on top of these

1080
01:07:54,013 --> 01:07:58,573
Speaker 5: beautiful hills that had nothing else on them. Chris goes

1081
01:07:58,573 --> 01:08:01,653
Speaker 5: on to say you might enjoy the attached short essay

1082
01:08:01,693 --> 01:08:06,093
Speaker 5: by Professor Wade Allison, and he sends you that Professor

1083
01:08:06,133 --> 01:08:08,573
Speaker 5: Wade Allison is the name of the person, and it

1084
01:08:08,653 --> 01:08:11,373
Speaker 5: summarizes the energy situation succinctly.

1085
01:08:12,853 --> 01:08:16,933
Speaker 2: Christopher, very good, Christopher, I shall as soon as we've finished.

1086
01:08:17,813 --> 01:08:21,413
Speaker 2: I've just been reading one that I was really looking

1087
01:08:21,453 --> 01:08:23,213
Speaker 2: forward to reading. As I read it, I thought, I'm

1088
01:08:23,213 --> 01:08:25,493
Speaker 2: looking forward to reading this, and then I get to

1089
01:08:25,533 --> 01:08:30,133
Speaker 2: the bottom says, please don't read this out loud if

1090
01:08:30,133 --> 01:08:32,133
Speaker 2: you read this on air. Oh there you gay see

1091
01:08:32,133 --> 01:08:35,413
Speaker 2: he's given me enough or they have. If you read

1092
01:08:35,413 --> 01:08:39,213
Speaker 2: this on air, please don't mention my name. And there's

1093
01:08:39,213 --> 01:08:42,333
Speaker 2: me a reason I better sit on that for the

1094
01:08:42,333 --> 01:08:45,013
Speaker 2: moment because it looks like it might be easily identified

1095
01:08:45,053 --> 01:08:49,533
Speaker 2: by some Sorry, but I'm mean. I didn't mean to tease.

1096
01:08:49,613 --> 01:08:52,773
Speaker 2: It's just this is happening as we speak. That's all

1097
01:08:53,773 --> 01:08:57,613
Speaker 2: from Steve. Congratulations on the two hundred and fiftieth podcast.

1098
01:08:58,453 --> 01:09:01,413
Speaker 2: I hope this is doubled as the truth we hear

1099
01:09:01,493 --> 01:09:05,773
Speaker 2: weekly from your podcasts and guests is always enlightening and informative.

1100
01:09:06,293 --> 01:09:08,693
Speaker 2: I cannot tell you how pleasing it is to receive

1101
01:09:08,893 --> 01:09:11,493
Speaker 2: that sort of comment, because you know we do our

1102
01:09:11,533 --> 01:09:16,453
Speaker 2: best and there are plenty to try and disrupt us.

1103
01:09:16,933 --> 01:09:19,813
Speaker 5: Well, it's something that you just adore doing latent, isn't it?

1104
01:09:19,893 --> 01:09:22,333
Speaker 5: And you spend pretty much all your time on it,

1105
01:09:22,613 --> 01:09:24,773
Speaker 5: so it's definitely a labor of love.

1106
01:09:24,933 --> 01:09:28,973
Speaker 2: It's frustration exactly right. So where was I? Over the

1107
01:09:29,053 --> 01:09:31,973
Speaker 2: last weeks, the regular Mary have spouted their rubbish as

1108
01:09:31,973 --> 01:09:36,373
Speaker 2: they try to exert their race over the rights of others.

1109
01:09:37,453 --> 01:09:41,453
Speaker 2: The behavior of Mary party leader Packer and the way

1110
01:09:41,733 --> 01:09:44,933
Speaker 2: both speak would never be accepted if anyone else spoke

1111
01:09:45,173 --> 01:09:50,213
Speaker 2: such venomous hatred Right there? I feel If other New Zealanders,

1112
01:09:50,253 --> 01:09:53,693
Speaker 2: like myself with part Mary blood, feel like I do,

1113
01:09:53,933 --> 01:09:57,573
Speaker 2: then there is hope to stop this anti all New

1114
01:09:57,693 --> 01:10:01,533
Speaker 2: Zealander retric unless you are a Mariy radical. I'm sick

1115
01:10:01,573 --> 01:10:03,733
Speaker 2: and tired of the news which stirs the pod daily

1116
01:10:03,853 --> 01:10:08,253
Speaker 2: with Mary and spired stories of the continually perpetuated myth

1117
01:10:08,573 --> 01:10:12,333
Speaker 2: have hard done by poor Mary, oppressed since European arrival.

1118
01:10:12,973 --> 01:10:16,773
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be a revelation if these groups actually acknowledge

1119
01:10:16,813 --> 01:10:23,053
Speaker 2: the benefits they actually have like clothes, phones, TVs, vehicles, hospitals, roads,

1120
01:10:23,173 --> 01:10:26,893
Speaker 2: modern housing, power, real boats, and far too much to

1121
01:10:26,973 --> 01:10:31,013
Speaker 2: mention they were tribaled and engaged in slavery, conquest and

1122
01:10:31,333 --> 01:10:35,413
Speaker 2: killing and eating anything they could inclusive of other tribes members.

1123
01:10:36,053 --> 01:10:40,893
Speaker 2: They were lawless, yet blame everything on colonization, of which

1124
01:10:40,933 --> 01:10:46,653
Speaker 2: they gladly did to each other's tribes. These marry blame

1125
01:10:46,813 --> 01:10:50,613
Speaker 2: the past and blame the present, yet failed to own

1126
01:10:50,773 --> 01:10:54,613
Speaker 2: or take any responsibility. Marie lost my interest years ago.

1127
01:10:54,773 --> 01:10:58,173
Speaker 2: Winge moown grizzle fall on my deaf ears. They become

1128
01:10:58,253 --> 01:11:01,213
Speaker 2: white noise to me, Yes, what a great saying. And

1129
01:11:01,293 --> 01:11:03,413
Speaker 2: how I laugh at how they would cry, what a

1130
01:11:03,493 --> 01:11:06,733
Speaker 2: racist saying that is, as they just add to the

1131
01:11:06,773 --> 01:11:11,253
Speaker 2: white noise. I hear. See. That was a bit well complicated,

1132
01:11:11,653 --> 01:11:12,333
Speaker 2: but we got there.

1133
01:11:12,373 --> 01:11:12,853
Speaker 3: In the end.

1134
01:11:14,133 --> 01:11:17,133
Speaker 5: Lighton Bronwin says you mentioned several topics that you felt

1135
01:11:17,173 --> 01:11:21,013
Speaker 5: needed covering at the beginning of episode two fifty, including

1136
01:11:21,053 --> 01:11:24,453
Speaker 5: the New Zealand pandemic plan. I thought this short article

1137
01:11:24,453 --> 01:11:27,653
Speaker 5: from The Centrist might interest you and should you wish

1138
01:11:27,733 --> 01:11:30,813
Speaker 5: to do an interview on the topic. Kirsten Murphett seems

1139
01:11:30,813 --> 01:11:33,493
Speaker 5: to have her finger on the pulse and Bromin sends

1140
01:11:33,533 --> 01:11:38,893
Speaker 5: you that piece from Centris dot co dot zid, and

1141
01:11:38,933 --> 01:11:40,693
Speaker 5: then Brown goes on to say, I hope you might

1142
01:11:40,733 --> 01:11:43,813
Speaker 5: feel inspired to take on another year of podcasts when

1143
01:11:43,813 --> 01:11:46,973
Speaker 5: the contract comes up for renewal again as voices like

1144
01:11:47,053 --> 01:11:50,293
Speaker 5: yours are much needed. If not, what would happen? Would

1145
01:11:50,333 --> 01:11:53,213
Speaker 5: the podcast cease to exist or would someone else take

1146
01:11:53,293 --> 01:11:56,773
Speaker 5: up the contract? And finally says Bronwyn, I have a

1147
01:11:56,813 --> 01:11:59,413
Speaker 5: copy of your book beyond the microphone, which I would

1148
01:11:59,453 --> 01:12:02,653
Speaker 5: like to give to somebody who would appreciate it. Would

1149
01:12:02,693 --> 01:12:04,733
Speaker 5: you be willing to read this out and pass on

1150
01:12:04,733 --> 01:12:07,213
Speaker 5: my number to the first person to email you wanting

1151
01:12:07,213 --> 01:12:12,893
Speaker 5: it located Marlborough, free to a good home, to a local,

1152
01:12:13,093 --> 01:12:15,653
Speaker 5: or just cover postage if you love elsewhere.

1153
01:12:15,653 --> 01:12:18,013
Speaker 2: And that's from bromwyin generous.

1154
01:12:17,773 --> 01:12:20,133
Speaker 5: I take great delight, latent, don't ie, and whenever I'm

1155
01:12:20,133 --> 01:12:22,453
Speaker 5: in a hospice shop or a Red Cross shop and

1156
01:12:22,773 --> 01:12:24,973
Speaker 5: phoning you and telling you that there it is for

1157
01:12:25,053 --> 01:12:31,493
Speaker 5: two dollars inevitable, really well thumbed of course, of course.

1158
01:12:32,493 --> 01:12:36,213
Speaker 2: And finally from Liz, congratulations on your fifty years in

1159
01:12:36,253 --> 01:12:42,093
Speaker 2: broadcasting and Carolyn's thirty six working with you well, working

1160
01:12:42,133 --> 01:12:43,093
Speaker 2: is a loose word, isn't it?

1161
01:12:43,413 --> 01:12:44,053
Speaker 6: Settled down?

1162
01:12:45,013 --> 01:12:48,893
Speaker 2: Fifty years in business is also my goal. Next year

1163
01:12:48,933 --> 01:12:51,293
Speaker 2: the gold card will arrive and I am not as

1164
01:12:51,333 --> 01:12:54,173
Speaker 2: some of my friends are waiting by the letterbox for it.

1165
01:12:54,613 --> 01:12:58,373
Speaker 2: I relish every day that I'm still able to contribute

1166
01:12:58,493 --> 01:13:01,373
Speaker 2: to the company result. I don't have to do it.

1167
01:13:01,773 --> 01:13:05,293
Speaker 2: I am fortunate enough to get to do it. I

1168
01:13:05,333 --> 01:13:07,493
Speaker 2: hope that in four years time, when my fifty years

1169
01:13:07,573 --> 01:13:10,733
Speaker 2: rolls around, that I am still spending the early hours

1170
01:13:10,773 --> 01:13:16,853
Speaker 2: of my Saturday catching up on your podcasts. Best wishes, Liz, Liz,

1171
01:13:16,973 --> 01:13:18,973
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. I'll do a deal with you.

1172
01:13:19,733 --> 01:13:22,413
Speaker 2: If you want to listen, I'll post them. But it

1173
01:13:22,493 --> 01:13:25,453
Speaker 2: might be about the fourth time you've heard them all repeats.

1174
01:13:25,693 --> 01:13:27,133
Speaker 6: Yeah don't.

1175
01:13:27,373 --> 01:13:29,813
Speaker 5: You're not on your own because he's spending the early

1176
01:13:29,853 --> 01:13:31,733
Speaker 5: hours of his Saturday actually doing it.

1177
01:13:31,893 --> 01:13:34,293
Speaker 6: So think of that when you're listening.

1178
01:13:35,253 --> 01:13:37,333
Speaker 2: Now there is one more you want to read it?

1179
01:13:37,893 --> 01:13:38,093
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1180
01:13:38,133 --> 01:13:38,413
Speaker 6: Why not?

1181
01:13:40,373 --> 01:13:42,933
Speaker 5: Jin says I will not remember Jacinda Durn for her

1182
01:13:42,973 --> 01:13:46,653
Speaker 5: so called kindness, her performative donning of the hijabb nor

1183
01:13:46,693 --> 01:13:50,493
Speaker 5: her opportunistic use of COVID powers. But there are three

1184
01:13:50,493 --> 01:13:53,293
Speaker 5: things that will constantly remind me of Jacinda in twenty

1185
01:13:53,333 --> 01:13:58,813
Speaker 5: twenty four, power outages, power price increases, and enforced power cuts,

1186
01:13:59,693 --> 01:14:03,093
Speaker 5: amongst a plethora of other crises. Safe Welcome to Jacinder

1187
01:14:03,173 --> 01:14:06,973
Speaker 5: our Durn and Megan Woods remain unrepentant for single handedly

1188
01:14:07,093 --> 01:14:11,133
Speaker 5: causing our current crisis with their bloody call to ban

1189
01:14:11,333 --> 01:14:15,173
Speaker 5: offshore oil and gas exploration in New Zealand. Who would

1190
01:14:15,173 --> 01:14:19,573
Speaker 5: have thought that my generation's nuclear free moment in twenty

1191
01:14:19,733 --> 01:14:23,293
Speaker 5: eighteen would result in the next generation's lights out moment

1192
01:14:23,373 --> 01:14:27,413
Speaker 5: in twenty four I love Andrew Hollis quote that becoming

1193
01:14:27,453 --> 01:14:31,533
Speaker 5: a climate scientist now is detrimental to critical thinking. It's

1194
01:14:31,693 --> 01:14:35,413
Speaker 5: clear neither our Dern nor Woods have any critical thinking

1195
01:14:35,493 --> 01:14:39,013
Speaker 5: faculties when it comes to climate change. I was very

1196
01:14:39,053 --> 01:14:42,413
Speaker 5: surprised to learn from Andrew Hollis that New Zealand's vast

1197
01:14:42,573 --> 01:14:47,653
Speaker 5: grasslands are completely ignored in New Zealand's carbon counting. What

1198
01:14:47,853 --> 01:14:52,853
Speaker 5: kind of stupid science are our climate change policies based on? Meanwhile,

1199
01:14:52,973 --> 01:14:57,533
Speaker 5: the next generation of labor and green MPs continues to

1200
01:14:57,693 --> 01:15:01,253
Speaker 5: march to the same rhetorical beat that our deurn spouted

1201
01:15:01,253 --> 01:15:04,933
Speaker 5: for six whole years, with great dollops of racism thrown

1202
01:15:04,973 --> 01:15:09,093
Speaker 5: and from Depati MAUI, I mean, what kind of word salad?

1203
01:15:09,173 --> 01:15:09,373
Speaker 6: Hell?

1204
01:15:09,653 --> 01:15:13,653
Speaker 5: Is the word ethnicide that's been spouted by Debbie nari Wapaka.

1205
01:15:14,373 --> 01:15:17,333
Speaker 5: These inmates that are trying to run the asylum need

1206
01:15:17,373 --> 01:15:19,773
Speaker 5: to be locked up forever. Their idea is subject of

1207
01:15:19,853 --> 01:15:23,413
Speaker 5: philosophical hell for all eternity. If there's a time for

1208
01:15:23,493 --> 01:15:28,133
Speaker 5: vaccine mandates, it's now. It's time to vaccinate against these

1209
01:15:28,333 --> 01:15:32,573
Speaker 5: idea virus superspreaders once and for all. Oh, and I

1210
01:15:32,653 --> 01:15:36,333
Speaker 5: also want to heartily congratulate you later on five decades

1211
01:15:36,333 --> 01:15:40,653
Speaker 5: of broadcasting. You've been pretty much broadcasting ever since.

1212
01:15:40,493 --> 01:15:43,893
Speaker 6: I was born. What a milestone.

1213
01:15:44,053 --> 01:15:46,813
Speaker 5: I'm looking forward to your new book Between the Microphone

1214
01:15:46,853 --> 01:15:51,973
Speaker 5: and the Bridge us. There won't be one of those,

1215
01:15:52,053 --> 01:15:54,853
Speaker 5: Jen I can tell you thank you so much.

1216
01:15:54,933 --> 01:15:58,013
Speaker 6: That was That was exceptional, wasn't it.

1217
01:15:59,813 --> 01:16:03,813
Speaker 2: Yes, Senda will remind me of the Podium of truth,

1218
01:16:04,173 --> 01:16:07,533
Speaker 2: Karl Marx and the dentist. So as a producer, thank you,

1219
01:16:07,893 --> 01:16:11,533
Speaker 2: thank you, and I look forward to seeing you next week.

1220
01:16:11,573 --> 01:16:12,533
Speaker 6: Oh that'll be good.

1221
01:16:15,053 --> 01:16:15,213
Speaker 3: Oh.

1222
01:16:15,253 --> 01:16:17,973
Speaker 2: By the way, Leyton at news talks at me dot

1223
01:16:18,013 --> 01:16:20,333
Speaker 2: co dot ensaid or Carolyn, she hasn't had a letter

1224
01:16:20,373 --> 01:16:23,493
Speaker 2: for a while. She gets included Dear Layton, Carolyn, or

1225
01:16:23,493 --> 01:16:28,533
Speaker 2: dear mister and missus producer. It's nice included anyway, Layton,

1226
01:16:28,573 --> 01:16:30,333
Speaker 2: that news talks of me dot co dot and said,

1227
01:16:30,533 --> 01:16:33,573
Speaker 2: or Carolyn with a Y at Newstalks said, be somebody

1228
01:16:33,613 --> 01:16:35,133
Speaker 2: sent one in with a Y N.

1229
01:16:35,013 --> 01:16:37,853
Speaker 5: E yes, I get the odd one like that too.

1230
01:16:38,613 --> 01:16:39,493
Speaker 2: They got the Y.

1231
01:16:39,813 --> 01:16:44,773
Speaker 6: That's good. I applaud that. See you later, Thank you.

1232
01:16:53,813 --> 01:16:54,573
Speaker 3: Leighton Smith.

1233
01:16:55,813 --> 01:16:58,613
Speaker 2: Now in the mailroom, missus producer read a letter from

1234
01:16:58,733 --> 01:17:01,413
Speaker 2: Chris and at the end of it there was an

1235
01:17:01,413 --> 01:17:04,813
Speaker 2: inclusion and I said that I'd have a look at

1236
01:17:04,813 --> 01:17:07,453
Speaker 2: it soon as we finished, and I did, and it

1237
01:17:07,533 --> 01:17:10,213
Speaker 2: has led me to wish to share it with you

1238
01:17:10,613 --> 01:17:14,493
Speaker 2: because it slots in beautifully with some of the subject

1239
01:17:14,533 --> 01:17:19,613
Speaker 2: matter of this podcast. Productivity is something that we're hearing

1240
01:17:19,653 --> 01:17:21,813
Speaker 2: an awful lot about we have for years. I know

1241
01:17:21,893 --> 01:17:24,453
Speaker 2: it's been said already in the podcast, but it seems

1242
01:17:24,453 --> 01:17:28,013
Speaker 2: to be intensifying and with good cause. So this is

1243
01:17:28,053 --> 01:17:32,213
Speaker 2: written by Professor Emeritus and fellow of Keble College, Oxford.

1244
01:17:32,853 --> 01:17:38,453
Speaker 2: His name is Wade Allison, and it's entitled Energy for Productivity.

1245
01:17:39,213 --> 01:17:43,413
Speaker 2: Energy for Productivity means more than the words would suggest,

1246
01:17:43,893 --> 01:17:47,173
Speaker 2: and it goes like this, starting with a summary, If

1247
01:17:47,213 --> 01:17:51,493
Speaker 2: the productivity of nations is to increase despite aging and

1248
01:17:51,533 --> 01:17:56,653
Speaker 2: shrinking populations, a dynamic energy policy with generous provision for

1249
01:17:56,893 --> 01:18:03,013
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence is needed. The new sources should be energy intensive, controllable,

1250
01:18:03,173 --> 01:18:08,253
Speaker 2: available twenty four to seven, compact, safe, environmental, secure, reliable,

1251
01:18:08,613 --> 01:18:13,453
Speaker 2: and locatable where required. Sounds perfect, doesn't it. In the past,

1252
01:18:13,733 --> 01:18:18,773
Speaker 2: energy and productivity increases have accompanied revolutionary strides in understanding,

1253
01:18:19,253 --> 01:18:24,693
Speaker 2: culture and application. Growing public confidence in nuclear power and

1254
01:18:24,773 --> 01:18:29,333
Speaker 2: the demand of AI suggests that a new revolutionary energy

1255
01:18:29,373 --> 01:18:34,693
Speaker 2: expansion is imminent. In prehistory, humans learnt how to engage

1256
01:18:34,733 --> 01:18:37,933
Speaker 2: the energy of fire rather than to flee in fear.

1257
01:18:38,973 --> 01:18:41,613
Speaker 2: This gave them a level of productivity that distinguished them

1258
01:18:41,653 --> 01:18:46,533
Speaker 2: from other creatures. Nevertheless, life remained short and miserable, and

1259
01:18:46,613 --> 01:18:50,693
Speaker 2: a population low. Sources of fuel were restricted, and other

1260
01:18:50,773 --> 01:18:53,573
Speaker 2: forms of energy that humans learned to use were weather

1261
01:18:53,653 --> 01:19:00,733
Speaker 2: dependent and notoriously unreliable. The Industrial Revolution changed that the

1262
01:19:00,813 --> 01:19:05,253
Speaker 2: combustion of energy Dense fossil fuels powered engines able to

1263
01:19:05,333 --> 01:19:09,813
Speaker 2: convert heat energy into mechanical effort. The availability of this

1264
01:19:09,933 --> 01:19:14,253
Speaker 2: heat and work in quantity, on site and on demand

1265
01:19:14,493 --> 01:19:18,333
Speaker 2: transformed productivity and the quantity of human life. It took

1266
01:19:18,373 --> 01:19:20,933
Speaker 2: time for the benefits to be realized, but for two

1267
01:19:21,013 --> 01:19:24,933
Speaker 2: hundred years, political and economic activity has focused on access

1268
01:19:24,973 --> 01:19:29,453
Speaker 2: to these fuels and the engines that use them. Unfortunately,

1269
01:19:29,613 --> 01:19:32,693
Speaker 2: fire can be difficult to control. It can catch a

1270
01:19:32,773 --> 01:19:38,213
Speaker 2: light in a runaway process and even explode, and emissions

1271
01:19:38,253 --> 01:19:41,453
Speaker 2: not only of carbon dioxide, but of carbon soots and

1272
01:19:41,573 --> 01:19:45,933
Speaker 2: nitrogen oxides too, are discharged in vast quantities into the

1273
01:19:45,973 --> 01:19:49,853
Speaker 2: atmosphere and the oceans, where they accumulate over periods up

1274
01:19:49,893 --> 01:19:54,093
Speaker 2: to a century. So the international community has agreed that

1275
01:19:54,133 --> 01:19:59,253
Speaker 2: the combustion of fossil fuels should be curtailed soon, implicitly

1276
01:19:59,573 --> 01:20:03,013
Speaker 2: while maintaining the world economy. Hence the search for a

1277
01:20:03,133 --> 01:20:06,293
Speaker 2: cleaner fuel to support higher productivity in the medium and

1278
01:20:06,373 --> 01:20:12,773
Speaker 2: longer term, ideally hotter than fire, widely available, controllable and

1279
01:20:12,853 --> 01:20:17,613
Speaker 2: compact and safe. Surprisingly, there is a candidate solution to

1280
01:20:17,733 --> 01:20:21,893
Speaker 2: this wish list, one that Winston Churchill pointed out already

1281
01:20:22,413 --> 01:20:26,533
Speaker 2: ninety three years ago. Writing in the Strand magazine. He

1282
01:20:26,653 --> 01:20:31,813
Speaker 2: compared the productivity of human effort coal and nuclear energy.

1283
01:20:32,133 --> 01:20:34,493
Speaker 2: The coal a man can get in a day can

1284
01:20:34,573 --> 01:20:37,213
Speaker 2: easily do five hundred times as much work as a

1285
01:20:37,213 --> 01:20:41,453
Speaker 2: man himself, he wrote, nuclear energy is at least one

1286
01:20:41,613 --> 01:20:46,333
Speaker 2: million times more powerful. Still, the discovery and control of

1287
01:20:46,413 --> 01:20:50,173
Speaker 2: such sources of power would cause changes in human affairs

1288
01:20:50,613 --> 01:20:54,493
Speaker 2: incomparably greater than those produced by the steam engine four

1289
01:20:54,693 --> 01:20:58,653
Speaker 2: generations ago. Though nobody knew how to extract and control

1290
01:20:58,733 --> 01:21:03,293
Speaker 2: this millionfold energy, in nineteen thirty one, it is explained

1291
01:21:03,533 --> 01:21:07,333
Speaker 2: as a simple consequence of quantum physics, and already by

1292
01:21:07,413 --> 01:21:12,213
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four it was safely powering the submarine Nautilus. Unfortunately,

1293
01:21:12,253 --> 01:21:16,293
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty five nuclear energy had been used as

1294
01:21:16,333 --> 01:21:19,413
Speaker 2: a weapon, like for gunpowder and T and T earlier,

1295
01:21:19,853 --> 01:21:24,053
Speaker 2: the increase in destructive energy was received with fear, and

1296
01:21:24,133 --> 01:21:28,173
Speaker 2: then to the evident danger of blast and fire was

1297
01:21:28,213 --> 01:21:32,053
Speaker 2: added worries over the health effects of radiation. Without any

1298
01:21:32,093 --> 01:21:36,053
Speaker 2: knowledge to the contrary, this radiation scare story was socially

1299
01:21:36,093 --> 01:21:40,933
Speaker 2: devastating and rapidly demonized nuclear energy. This had the welcome

1300
01:21:41,013 --> 01:21:45,373
Speaker 2: effect of discouraging the deployment of nuclear weapons, so that

1301
01:21:45,653 --> 01:21:49,613
Speaker 2: none has been used since nineteen forty five. Nevertheless, the

1302
01:21:49,693 --> 01:21:53,573
Speaker 2: health threat from radiation on the scale feared is not

1303
01:21:53,693 --> 01:21:58,293
Speaker 2: confirmed by supporting evidence. If society had overcome this fear,

1304
01:21:58,573 --> 01:22:01,093
Speaker 2: as it did long ago, when the fear of fire

1305
01:22:01,173 --> 01:22:05,093
Speaker 2: threatened human advancement, the full benefit of nuclear energy might

1306
01:22:05,133 --> 01:22:07,853
Speaker 2: have been enjoyed for the past seventy years, but no

1307
01:22:07,893 --> 01:22:11,653
Speaker 2: attempt was made to explain and convince everyone that radiation

1308
01:22:11,813 --> 01:22:16,333
Speaker 2: and nuclear energy are more easily and safely controlled than fire,

1309
01:22:17,053 --> 01:22:22,173
Speaker 2: as can be done today. Instead, public apprehension was treated

1310
01:22:22,213 --> 01:22:27,853
Speaker 2: with regulations designed to minimize personal exposure to nuclear technology

1311
01:22:27,893 --> 01:22:32,213
Speaker 2: except for the life saving health benefits initiated by Maricuri.

1312
01:22:32,973 --> 01:22:37,653
Speaker 2: These regulations lack any sound scientific basis, an appeal to

1313
01:22:37,693 --> 01:22:42,773
Speaker 2: a philosophy of unqualified caution. Technically, they encourage over design

1314
01:22:42,973 --> 01:22:46,573
Speaker 2: and add hugely to the costs and delays of deploying

1315
01:22:46,653 --> 01:22:50,893
Speaker 2: nuclear power. Until recently, these artificial hurdles were still widely

1316
01:22:50,933 --> 01:22:54,813
Speaker 2: cited as reasons to discourage nuclear energy as a replacement

1317
01:22:54,893 --> 01:22:59,893
Speaker 2: for fossil fuels. Instead, the instinctive reaction was to revert

1318
01:23:00,053 --> 01:23:03,133
Speaker 2: to the weak and unreliable sources that depend on the

1319
01:23:03,133 --> 01:23:08,213
Speaker 2: weather and had proved inadequate before the Industrial Revolution, Deployed

1320
01:23:08,453 --> 01:23:13,213
Speaker 2: today with modern technology, their voracious appetite for land and

1321
01:23:13,293 --> 01:23:19,333
Speaker 2: resources adds to their unreliability and negative environmental impact. But

1322
01:23:19,373 --> 01:23:23,693
Speaker 2: the benefits of nuclear power for productivity that Churchill imagined remain,

1323
01:23:24,493 --> 01:23:30,533
Speaker 2: as do simple reassuring facts, as follows the evacuation zone

1324
01:23:30,613 --> 01:23:35,533
Speaker 2: at Chernobyl, far from being an uninhabitable desert, is thriving

1325
01:23:35,573 --> 01:23:39,533
Speaker 2: with wildlife. Nobody was hurt at all by the radiation

1326
01:23:39,733 --> 01:23:45,093
Speaker 2: released in the accidents of Fukushima and Three Mile Island. Overall,

1327
01:23:45,253 --> 01:23:49,333
Speaker 2: nuclear power has a better safety record than any other source.

1328
01:23:50,213 --> 01:23:54,773
Speaker 2: Healthy human tissue recovers from an exposure to radiation even

1329
01:23:54,813 --> 01:24:00,973
Speaker 2: after radiotherapy treatment, with forty thousand times the annual exposure

1330
01:24:01,213 --> 01:24:06,733
Speaker 2: set as safe by ultra cautious regulations. I do that again.

1331
01:24:07,173 --> 01:24:11,973
Speaker 2: Healthy human tissue recovers from an exposure to radiation even

1332
01:24:12,013 --> 01:24:17,293
Speaker 2: after radiotherapy treatment, with forty thousand times the annual exposure

1333
01:24:17,853 --> 01:24:22,813
Speaker 2: set as safe by ultra cautious regulations. Natural radiation in

1334
01:24:22,893 --> 01:24:26,013
Speaker 2: the environment varies by large factors from place to place

1335
01:24:26,053 --> 01:24:30,333
Speaker 2: around the world, with no adverse health effects for inhabitants.

1336
01:24:31,453 --> 01:24:34,933
Speaker 2: The world has deluded itself for the past seventy years

1337
01:24:35,173 --> 01:24:39,053
Speaker 2: that nuclear energy is especially dangerous. The reasons for its

1338
01:24:39,133 --> 01:24:43,613
Speaker 2: unexpected safety are well understood today, and the public view

1339
01:24:43,813 --> 01:24:48,733
Speaker 2: is gradually changing. Discussion about risks and safety in the environment,

1340
01:24:49,173 --> 01:24:53,173
Speaker 2: including that radiation does not multiply like infection or fire,

1341
01:24:53,733 --> 01:24:57,813
Speaker 2: is a matter for schools. The cultural shift will take

1342
01:24:57,853 --> 01:25:00,733
Speaker 2: a few years, but so also will the wider roll

1343
01:25:00,773 --> 01:25:05,133
Speaker 2: out of nuclear power. The advanced legislation enacted by President

1344
01:25:05,173 --> 01:25:10,293
Speaker 2: Biden on nine July, with Bipower and Support, brings a

1345
01:25:10,293 --> 01:25:15,733
Speaker 2: more open policy to nuclear development, deployment, and international engagement. Currently,

1346
01:25:15,813 --> 01:25:21,013
Speaker 2: nuclear technology offers many plant designs under development, all competing

1347
01:25:21,133 --> 01:25:24,933
Speaker 2: for permission to build, but held back until now by

1348
01:25:25,613 --> 01:25:29,973
Speaker 2: a risk averse culture. There is room, he concludes, there

1349
01:25:30,013 --> 01:25:34,133
Speaker 2: is room for considerable optimism that nuclear power will contribute

1350
01:25:34,173 --> 01:25:38,053
Speaker 2: a major uplift in future productivity, as it could have

1351
01:25:38,333 --> 01:25:42,653
Speaker 2: earlier if the world had not been scared. There's some

1352
01:25:42,773 --> 01:25:46,933
Speaker 2: inport from somebody who should be respected for their opinion.

1353
01:25:47,373 --> 01:25:52,533
Speaker 2: Wade Allison, Professor emeritus of Keppel College in Oxford, and

1354
01:25:53,213 --> 01:25:56,293
Speaker 2: I have a feeling that New Zealand will follow Australia

1355
01:25:56,973 --> 01:26:00,133
Speaker 2: and start to change its mind, if it hasn't already.

1356
01:26:00,573 --> 01:26:00,733
Speaker 3: Now.

1357
01:26:00,773 --> 01:26:03,893
Speaker 2: The outcasts in this discussion the course of the Greens,

1358
01:26:04,413 --> 01:26:06,693
Speaker 2: who no matter what you present them with as far

1359
01:26:06,733 --> 01:26:10,893
Speaker 2: as safety is concerned, what new developments are unveiled, they

1360
01:26:10,973 --> 01:26:14,933
Speaker 2: will stick to their guns, which is probably not which

1361
01:26:14,973 --> 01:26:17,213
Speaker 2: is probably not quite the right way to frame it,

1362
01:26:17,773 --> 01:26:21,173
Speaker 2: but it's probably time to drag out a wonderful old

1363
01:26:21,213 --> 01:26:24,453
Speaker 2: phrase that I haven't used for a long time, and

1364
01:26:24,493 --> 01:26:27,053
Speaker 2: that is that the Greens, if they had their way,

1365
01:26:27,573 --> 01:26:30,573
Speaker 2: would have us all living in caves and scrubbing ourselves

1366
01:26:30,653 --> 01:26:34,213
Speaker 2: in the creek with a rock, and that will knock

1367
01:26:34,293 --> 01:26:37,293
Speaker 2: us out for this week Podcast two hundred and fifty one.

1368
01:26:38,013 --> 01:26:40,373
Speaker 2: Don't forget if you'd like to comment on anything or

1369
01:26:40,653 --> 01:26:43,333
Speaker 2: suggest anything, if you are to write to us Latent

1370
01:26:43,413 --> 01:26:45,893
Speaker 2: at newstalks ab dot co dot ziit or Carolyn at

1371
01:26:45,893 --> 01:26:49,733
Speaker 2: newstalks ab dot co dot enz And as I repeat constantly,

1372
01:26:49,853 --> 01:26:55,773
Speaker 2: we do enjoy getting your input, so don't hesitate so

1373
01:26:55,893 --> 01:26:59,053
Speaker 2: that kicks us for touch and we shall be back

1374
01:26:59,253 --> 01:27:01,733
Speaker 2: very shortly with Podcast two hundred and fifty two. In

1375
01:27:01,813 --> 01:27:05,173
Speaker 2: the meantime, thank you as always for listening and we'll

1376
01:27:05,213 --> 01:27:05,693
Speaker 2: talk soon.

1377
01:27:08,413 --> 01:27:08,853
Speaker 3: M hmm.

1378
01:27:13,613 --> 01:27:17,293
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talk st B. Listen

1379
01:27:17,373 --> 01:27:20,333
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1380
01:27:20,453 --> 01:27:23,613
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.