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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debate still used now the Leighton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by News.

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Speaker 2: Talks ed B.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to podcast three hundred and eleven for November nineteen,

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. In last week's podcast, I may mention

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Speaker 3: of a question, will there always be an England? Silly question?

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Speaker 3: You might have thought, the country of magna carta that

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Speaker 3: gave the world liberal democracy and a whole lot more. Well,

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Speaker 3: there's an answer to that in this week's interview or

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Speaker 3: discussion with David Wilson. As in Lord David Wilson.

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Speaker 2: K C.

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Speaker 3: Described by fellow lawyers as one of the leading silks

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Speaker 3: of his generation. He has clients and judges eating out

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Speaker 3: of his hands and handles very difficult work with a

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Speaker 3: sense of humor. There's nothing he hasn't seen and take

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Speaker 3: me long to realize that he is a man of

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Speaker 3: integrity and principle, two characteristics that are widely missing across

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Speaker 3: the globe. And I couldn't help but think about the

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Speaker 3: current police scenario in this country and referring to a

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Speaker 3: headline by fran O'Sullivan full inquiry into police needed to

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Speaker 3: change old boys club culture, and I can only suggest

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Speaker 3: that they would gain certainly got nothing to lose through

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Speaker 3: listening to the discussion with Lord Wilson, as it seems

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Speaker 3: that we have a shortage of such advisories in this country.

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Speaker 3: Now at the back end of today's podcast, we pay

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Speaker 3: a little attention to education. Why well, there is a

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Speaker 3: letter in the mail room that inspired me to take

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Speaker 3: a little further after we'd finished the mail room, and

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Speaker 3: I want to quote you something not from the letter,

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Speaker 3: but it leads into it. Today we see many examples

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Speaker 3: of leftists supporting evil at the expense of good. Many

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Speaker 3: of our public schools promote degeneracy over virtue, and ignorance

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Speaker 3: over intelligence. Even some parents, who we expect would want

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Speaker 3: to protect their children sometimes support mutilating them over keeping

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Speaker 3: them whole. It's been said that if her liberal from

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Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties was brought forward to today, he'd be

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Speaker 3: considered a conservative, and if a liberal from today were

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Speaker 3: transported back to the nineteen sixties, he'd be considered a

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Speaker 3: dangerous lunatic. Many television shows from the early days of

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Speaker 3: the medium still heir today. I sometimes wonder if those characters,

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Speaker 3: if they were real, would say if they could read

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Speaker 3: today's headlines or listen to the likes of Rachel Meadow

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Speaker 3: h EMMISMBC. It turns out, however, that we just caught

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Speaker 3: a glimpse of how they might react. And interview with

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Speaker 3: one hundred year old World War II veteran from the

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Speaker 3: UK named Alec Penstone stirred emotions recently as he expressed

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Speaker 3: his disillusion with modern Britain. Now you may have seen this,

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Speaker 3: a lot of people did. During his appearance on Good

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Speaker 3: Morning Britain, Penstone poignantly reflected on his service in the

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Speaker 3: Royal Navy during the D Day Invasion, lamenting that the

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Speaker 3: freedoms for which he and his compatriots fought are no

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Speaker 3: longer evident in his country. What we fought for, he said,

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Speaker 3: what we fought for was our freedom. Even now the

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Speaker 3: country is worse than it was when I fought for it,

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Speaker 3: said this one hundred year old World War II veteran.

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Speaker 3: And when you align that comment with what's going on

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Speaker 3: in Britain today, even though some people argue are there's

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Speaker 3: no big deal no great problem. I think he spoke

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Speaker 3: the truth. Now after a short break David Wilson. Levericks

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Speaker 3: is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality.

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Speaker 3: Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin.

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Speaker 3: It's a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal

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Speaker 3: decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief and it

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Speaker 3: works in under an hour and lasts for over twenty

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Speaker 3: four hours. Lebrix is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose,

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Speaker 3: deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Lebrix is an

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Speaker 3: antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next

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Speaker 3: time you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into

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Speaker 3: the pharmacy and ask for Leverix l e v Rix

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Speaker 3: Levrix and always read the label. Takes directed and if

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Speaker 3: symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland David

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Speaker 3: Wolfson is one of the most sought after commercial silks

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Speaker 3: at the bar that in itself is a compliment that's

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Speaker 3: hard to beat. He attracts instructions in the most complex

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Speaker 3: and high value disputes and has been instructed in many

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Speaker 3: major banking and commercial disputes. His practice extends over a

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Speaker 3: broad range of commercial law, both in litigation and international arbitration.

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Speaker 3: Looking down the list of areas included in his scope

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Speaker 3: of practice indicates that David Wilson can talk on just

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Speaker 3: about anything. So maybe I should greet him a little

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Speaker 3: more formally and say, Lord Wolfson from Tredegar, welcome to

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Speaker 3: the Leyden Smith podcast.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's behind of you to invite me on. And

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Speaker 2: should I just say that the only person who regularly

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Speaker 2: calls me Lord Wilson is my bank manager, and that's

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Speaker 2: only when I'm over to Rawn. So can we stick

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Speaker 2: to David?

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Speaker 3: We can certainly stick to David. The place I want

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Speaker 3: to start really is with your position in politics, where

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Speaker 3: you were appointed by the Prime Minister Boris Johnson to

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Speaker 3: be what well.

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Speaker 2: I was appointed to be a Lord's Minister in the

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Speaker 2: Ministry of Justice. As you know, we have two houses

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Speaker 2: in Parliament, House of Commons House of Lords, and we

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Speaker 2: have ministers in each and the Justice minister in the

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Speaker 2: Lords had resigned a couple of months previously. They were

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Speaker 2: looking for a justice minister, and I was asked I

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Speaker 2: should say that I wasn't actually asked, in fact by Boris. Indeed,

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Speaker 2: I hardly met Boris during the whole time I was

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Speaker 2: a minister. But I was asked by the government to

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Speaker 2: join the government as a minister, and therefore that's how

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Speaker 2: I ended up in the House of Lords.

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Speaker 3: You're also a King's Council. Of course, the fact that

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Speaker 3: you had hardly any contact with the Prime Minister at

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Speaker 3: the time, was that a good thing or otherwise?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the reason they asked me was because

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Speaker 2: I had done a fair amount of work with Michael

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Speaker 2: Gove when he was a Secretary of State for Justice

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Speaker 2: and Lord Chancellor. I've got to know Michael. We'd work together,

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Speaker 2: we'd stayed in touch, and I think when they were

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Speaker 2: looking for a Justice minister, Michael suggested, I think, among

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Speaker 2: other people, that perhaps they should contact me. But it

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Speaker 2: was a bit of a surprise to be asked. Of course,

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Speaker 2: it meant I had to give up my practice, because

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Speaker 2: when you were a minister you can't do anything else.

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Speaker 2: So it meant giving up my practice at the bar

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Speaker 2: becoming a minister, and in the House of Lords. Most

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Speaker 2: ministers are unpaid, so it really meant giving up an

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Speaker 2: income as well. For several years and you did that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: maybe I'm mad. No, I'm not mad, because it's a

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Speaker 2: great honor to be asked, and I mean, thank god

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Speaker 2: I could afford to do it. And when an opportunity

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Speaker 2: like that comes along, you should take it. Few people

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Speaker 2: have that opportunity to be in government to I know

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Speaker 2: it sounds very grand, but I really believe in public service.

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Speaker 2: I and my family have, over the generations we've been

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Speaker 2: in the UK, benefited a lot from the UK, from

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Speaker 2: its democratic and stable political system, and in some ways

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Speaker 2: I looked on this as an opportunity to give back

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Speaker 2: and do my bit for public service as well.

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Speaker 3: Well. Now that you've mentioned your history to some degree,

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Speaker 3: let's expand on it just a little. Your great grandfather

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Speaker 3: was naturalized and converted his name into English from Hebrew

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Speaker 3: from Aaron, son of Wolf, and became Aaron Wilson. What

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Speaker 3: followed from there.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're right, I mean all of my great grandparents

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Speaker 2: were born in Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents were

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Speaker 2: born in the UK, and on my father's side, the

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Speaker 2: great grandfather Aaron that you refer to, he went to Tredega,

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Speaker 2: which is a town in South Wales from there they

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Speaker 2: moved to London. From there, my grandfather moved to Liverpool.

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Speaker 2: My father was born in Liverpool and I was born

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Speaker 2: in Liverpool. On my mother's side. My mother's family ended

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Speaker 2: up in Manchester, and of course, as you know, that's

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Speaker 2: only thirty miles from Liverpool. And my grandfather, my mother's father,

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Speaker 2: was a GP He had a practice in Heighton and

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Speaker 2: eventually he moved from Manchester to live in Liverpool, and

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Speaker 2: that's how we all ended up eventually in Liverpool, where

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Speaker 2: I was born.

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Speaker 3: How was Liverpool to grow up in in those days?

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Speaker 2: It was formative in many many ways. Perhaps it's only

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Speaker 2: now that I look back I realize just what in

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Speaker 2: effect living in Liverpool had on me. I'd say perhaps

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Speaker 2: in particular in two respect. First of all, when I

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Speaker 2: was growing up, Liverpool was very active politically. Liverpool was

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Speaker 2: taken over really by the Militant Tendency. Students of British

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Speaker 2: politics may remember. This was a hard left group that

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Speaker 2: really threatened to take over the Labor Party and was

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Speaker 2: eventually thrown out of the Labor Party and Liverpool City

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Speaker 2: Council was run by these hard left activists. So growing

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Speaker 2: up in Liverpool was to grow up in a political

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Speaker 2: atmosphere and looking back that I think influenced my own

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Speaker 2: political views. It also had a big effect on me

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Speaker 2: in my communal work. I'm a member of the Jewish community,

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Speaker 2: and the Jewish community in Liverpool was small, and that

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Speaker 2: had two effects. First of all, it meant that all

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Speaker 2: parts of the Jewish community had to work together because

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Speaker 2: it was so small, you couldn't split along denominational lines.

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Speaker 2: So meant that relations between, so to speak, the Jewish

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Speaker 2: and the non Jewish communities were very good because the

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Speaker 2: Jewish community was too small to be insular. The high

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Speaker 2: school I went to, in particular, was a Jewish school.

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Speaker 2: It was a faith based school, a state school, comprehensive,

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Speaker 2: not not selective on academic ability. But when I was there,

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Speaker 2: it was about sixty five percent Jewish thirty five percent

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Speaker 2: non Jewish. So again it taught you to be open

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Speaker 2: to interact with people from different backgrounds, to listen to

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Speaker 2: what people with different viewpoints had to say. Looking back now,

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Speaker 2: all of that was really formative for me. I only

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Speaker 2: appreciate it now looking back.

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Speaker 3: And recently I did an interview with a black American

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Speaker 3: who grew up in Montana, and I asked him if

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Speaker 3: if he had suffered any vigilante stuff, if you like,

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Speaker 3: and if it all, oh yes, and explain to me

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Speaker 3: how from the home they lived in had been plastered

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Speaker 3: with swastikas and whatever you at various times. None of this,

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Speaker 3: None of this affected him in a negative way. It

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Speaker 3: all added to his maturity, and he's only thirty two now,

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Speaker 3: to his maturity and the approach that he took to life.

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Speaker 3: So the question I'm asking to you is basically the same.

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Speaker 3: Did you ever suffer from assaults of any kind? As

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Speaker 3: you were growing up in Liverpool?

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Speaker 2: There were the occasional pushing and shoving, to be the

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Speaker 2: occasional shouted remark from a passing car. Of course, there

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Speaker 2: was graffiti sometimes on Jewish buildings. Tombstones sometimes were desecrated

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Speaker 2: in the way that tragically they have been in many communities.

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Speaker 2: But I don't want to overplay it. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: didn't live in fear. You're certainly right, and your previous interviewee,

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Speaker 2: if I may say, was certainly right. The response to

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Speaker 2: that sort of action is not to retreat within your community.

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Speaker 2: It's not to circle the wagon, so to speak. It's

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Speaker 2: to be even prouder of who you are and what

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Speaker 2: you are, to be unapologetic, unashamed, to wear your values

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Speaker 2: on your sleeve. I've always thought that antisemitism is not

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Speaker 2: only a problem for the Jewish community. Really, anti Semitism

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Speaker 2: is a problem for everybody. There is. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to make this interview too serious too quickly, but there is.

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Speaker 2: I would suggest an iron rule of history that any

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Speaker 2: society which tolerates anti Semitism is a society which is

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Speaker 2: suffering from a terminal disease. So just as anti black

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Speaker 2: racism is not only a problem for the Black community,

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Speaker 2: antisemitism is not only a problem for the Jewish community.

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Speaker 2: It's a problem for society in general.

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Speaker 3: I understand what you say, and I don't disagree with you.

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Speaker 3: Problem is, there are plenty of people who are growing

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Speaker 3: number at the moment who actually appreciate that fact from

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Speaker 3: their perspective, because it aids and abets them in the

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Speaker 3: what shall we call it, the chore that they have adopted.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to go any further with that at

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Speaker 3: the moment, because otherwise we're going to miss out on

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Speaker 3: some things that we should be covering. So let's return

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Speaker 3: to it when it becomes when it becomes apparent we should.

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Speaker 3: I want to make reference to your position that you

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Speaker 3: had with Boris, with Boris's government and the fact that

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Speaker 3: you resigned from it in twenty twenty two. How long

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Speaker 3: had you been in that position of that point, well.

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Speaker 2: I was appointed in December twenty twenty and then I

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Speaker 2: resigned in April twenty.

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Speaker 3: Two, so little over a year. Basically, the reason that

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Speaker 3: you resigned is a very fascinating one, and I enjoyed

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Speaker 3: digging around it into it. And if you don't mind,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to quote something of your letter of resignation.

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Speaker 3: This is to Boris Johnson, to the Prime Minister. It

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Speaker 3: was a great honor to be invited to join your

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Speaker 3: government as a justice minister. In my maiden speech I

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Speaker 3: twice used the phrase justice and the rule of law.

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Speaker 3: Justice may often be a matter of courts and procedure,

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Speaker 3: but the rule of law is something else, a constitutional

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Speaker 3: principle which at its roots means that everyone in a state,

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Speaker 3: and indeed the state itself, is subject to the law.

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Speaker 3: Second paragraph is where it all falls into place. I

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Speaker 3: regret that recent disclosures lead to the inevitable conclusion that

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Speaker 3: there's was repeated rule breaking and breaches of the criminal

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Speaker 3: law in Downing Street. I have, again, with considerable regret,

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Speaker 3: come to the conclusion that the scale, context and nature

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Speaker 3: of those breaches mean that it would be inconsistent with

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Speaker 3: the rule of law for that conduct to pass with

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Speaker 3: constitutional impunity, especially when many in society complied with the

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Speaker 3: rules at great personal cost and others were fined or

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Speaker 3: prosecuted for similar and sometimes apparently more trivial offenses. It

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Speaker 3: is not just a question of what happened in Downing

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Speaker 3: Street or your own conduct. It is also, and perhaps

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Speaker 3: more so, the official response to what took place. As

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Speaker 3: we obviously do not share that view of these matters,

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Speaker 3: I must ask you to accept my resignation. Now. That

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Speaker 3: was targeted at Boris Johnson in no uncertain terms. How

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Speaker 3: did he respond to that?

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Speaker 2: Well, he sent me a very nice letter, thank King

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Speaker 2: B for bye service and accepting my resignation. He didn't

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Speaker 2: engage in a debate about the substantive points I've made in.

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Speaker 3: My letter, but you've got a lot of feedback on it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I did. I sometimes think that people only remember

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Speaker 2: my time in government for the manner in which I

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Speaker 2: left it. I did do a few things while I

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Speaker 2: was in government, but the point I was making in

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Speaker 2: my resignation letter was, I think a serious point. The

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Speaker 2: rule of law is fundamental, not just if you're a

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Speaker 2: justice minister, as I was, but frankly to everyone in society,

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Speaker 2: once you lose that principle, I e. That the law

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Speaker 2: is important, that respect for law is important, that law

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Speaker 2: makers especially need to try to obey the law, and

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Speaker 2: mustn't denigrate breaches of the law or say that they

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Speaker 2: don't matter. Without those principles, we stop being the sort

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Speaker 2: of society which I think we do want to live in.

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Speaker 3: Well, the main thing that came out of what I

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Speaker 3: read and how I interpreted it was that you established

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Speaker 3: yourself in no uncertain terms as a man of principle.

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Speaker 3: Has it caused you since any issues? And by that

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Speaker 3: I mean I mean along the lines of you found

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Speaker 3: yourself in a similar situation or something where you might

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Speaker 3: have taken a different fork in the road.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of you to say, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: don't mean to be you know, triggish or high for looting.

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Speaker 2: But I thought at that time it was a matter

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Speaker 2: of principle, and the response from number ten to the

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Speaker 2: breaches of the law was something which couldn't be condoned

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Speaker 2: and shouldn't just be passed over. As I made clear

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Speaker 2: in the letter, it wasn't so much the breaches of

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Speaker 2: the law themselves that was a problem. In other words,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't the holding of the parties which was really

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Speaker 2: the problem, although that was a lawful The real problem

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Speaker 2: the response to holding the parties I saying it doesn't matter,

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Speaker 2: it's not really important. That sort of dismissive approach to

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Speaker 2: breaches of the law, that is what threatens the rule

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Speaker 2: of law. I don't think it's had too much of

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Speaker 2: an effect on me or impact on me going forward.

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Speaker 2: You know, I try not to put myself in a

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Speaker 2: position where I need to reside from it. But I

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Speaker 2: think that what happened at that time was perhaps the

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Speaker 2: unique episode, and governments of all slides do generally try

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Speaker 2: to both obey the law and also to have respect

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Speaker 2: for the rule of law.

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Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't seem to have affected your progress, because

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Speaker 3: you are now in quite a different position. You've been

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Speaker 3: appointed just a short while ago. Was it not to

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Speaker 3: the equivalent position as the shadow but Justice Minister?

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Speaker 2: Not quite. I'm not the shadow Justice Minister. I'm the

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Speaker 2: shadow Attorney General.

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Speaker 3: Sorry.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we have law officers and we have

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Speaker 2: justice ministers. So I'm now a shadow law officer. So

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Speaker 2: I shadow the Attorney General and that means what. So

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Speaker 2: the Attorney General is the government's really chief legal advisor.

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Speaker 2: And what's quite unusual about the UK system it does

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Speaker 2: happen elsewhere as well, is that the Attorney General is

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Speaker 2: both a lawyer and a politician. So the Attorney General

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Speaker 2: sits either in the House of Commons or in the

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Speaker 2: House of Lords, and he or she heads up the

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Speaker 2: law officers, is ultimately responsible for the Crown Prosecution Service

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Speaker 2: and is, as I say, the government's main legal advisor.

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Speaker 2: So the Attorney General's advice will be sought by the

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Speaker 2: government when they are considering whether a particular course of

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Speaker 2: action is legal, what a particular treaty means, and things

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Speaker 2: like that. And the shadow attorney General, as the name implies,

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Speaker 2: I shadow. I monitor the work of the Attorney General,

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Speaker 2: and I do a similar job for the opposition. So

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Speaker 2: I work with the shadow Cabinet to try to make

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Speaker 2: sure that our policies are legal, that our policies don't

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Speaker 2: infringe any legal obligations, and I advise them on legal issues.

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Speaker 2: We may come on later. Recently, I did a very

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Speaker 2: long advice which was made public to the leader of

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Speaker 2: the Conservative Party about leaving the EU ping Convention of

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Speaker 2: Human Rights. So that's my role now as Shadow Attorney General.

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Speaker 3: So I presume that this is again an unpaid position. Oh, yes,

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Speaker 3: that means that you well, I understand also that you

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Speaker 3: are operating from chambers and working for yourself as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So when you're in opposition, unlike being a minister,

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Speaker 2: you can hold an alternative job, so to speak. So

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Speaker 2: I divide my time between my career at the bar

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Speaker 2: and I run a full legal practice, and on top

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Speaker 2: of that I have my role as Shadow Attorney General

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Speaker 2: and my parliamentary responsibilities. So really what that means is

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Speaker 2: I have zero free time. You know, I tend to

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Speaker 2: run a pretty packed diary.

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Speaker 3: You left out being harassed constantly for interviews.

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Speaker 2: That's a sole that's a sole joy in my life.

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Speaker 3: Right that leaves that leads me onto something something else

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Speaker 3: that I think is very pertinent. At this point. You

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Speaker 3: have three children, two of whom are in uniform. Your

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Speaker 3: son is living in Israel and he's a member of

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Speaker 3: the service, and he's in uniform, and you have a

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Speaker 3: daughter in London who is also in a different kind

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Speaker 3: of uniform, and you told this story, I think in

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Speaker 3: your in your first speech after your appointment to the

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Speaker 3: House of Lords. I wonder if you'd like to retell

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Speaker 3: it here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it wasn't my first speech after my appointment, but

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Speaker 2: I think it was the first speech after the atrocities

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Speaker 2: of the seventh of October. And the point I made

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Speaker 2: was that at that time I did have those two

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Speaker 2: children in uniform on a Saturday night, and I made

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Speaker 2: the point that I was more concerned about my daughter

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Speaker 2: going into central London on the Tube in her uniform,

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Speaker 2: which was a T shirt and jeans and a Magen

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Speaker 2: David a Star of David necklace. I was more concerned

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Speaker 2: that she might be subject to physical violence than I

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Speaker 2: was concerned about my son, who at that time was

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Speaker 2: in uniform in Israel. And yes, I think it's fair

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Speaker 2: to say that speech did get a fair amount of attention.

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Speaker 3: Did it bring you the wrong kind of attention?

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Speaker 2: I think you learn in politics that whatever you say,

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Speaker 2: you're going to have the nut jobs and the wackos

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Speaker 2: who will respond to you. If you get put off

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Speaker 2: by people being impolite, let's say to you on social media,

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Speaker 2: then you wouldn't say anything at all. The important thing

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Speaker 2: is just to say what you believe, and you do

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Speaker 2: need a bit of a thick skin or broad shoulders

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Speaker 2: in politics.

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Speaker 3: So on the subject of the Israeli military, which has

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Speaker 3: been very active of late, that opens up a very

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Speaker 3: broad horizon for discussion. So let me try and narrow

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Speaker 3: it down a little. Give me your take on the

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Speaker 3: situation as it is now in the Middle least in

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Speaker 3: the area that we're discussing, and what changes in London

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Speaker 3: might have been made since that story that was there

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Speaker 3: is now a couple of years old that you just told.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's no doubt that there is a direct correlation

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Speaker 2: and there always has been between attacks on Jews in

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Speaker 2: London and conflict in the Middle East. Whenever there's an

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Speaker 2: increase in conflict in the Middle East, there's also an

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Speaker 2: increase in anti Semitic attacks, anti Semitic speech, anti Semitic

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Speaker 2: marches in London. Those two, those two go together. It's

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Speaker 2: said that they go together. I often wish that the

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Speaker 2: debate on the Middle East was more nuanced in London

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Speaker 2: because when you actually talk to people in the Middle East,

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Speaker 2: as I have now done really all my life. You

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Speaker 2: realize that for the majority of the people in the

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Speaker 2: region itself, they see the complexities, they live with the complexities.

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Speaker 2: It's only people outside, or mainly people outside the region

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Speaker 2: who see it as black and white, who see it

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Speaker 2: in this Minietzschean view of one side is always right

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Speaker 2: and one side is always wrong. And that is such

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Speaker 2: a simplistic, childish, frankly unhelpful way to view what is

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Speaker 2: a very complex conflict.

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Speaker 3: But you've had plenty to say, I think, on the

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Speaker 3: situation as it has as it has rolled out over

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Speaker 3: the last few years. Am I wrong?

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Speaker 2: No, You're right. I have spoken out, and I've spoken

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Speaker 2: out really for two reasons. First of all, because as

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Speaker 2: a fairly prominent member of the Jewish community in the UK,

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Speaker 2: I felt a need to speak out. When you go

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Speaker 2: to a synagogue, for example, in the UK today, there

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Speaker 2: will be people in stab vests patrolling outside it. I

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Speaker 2: don't see people in stab vest patrolling outside my local churches.

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Speaker 2: When I get invited to a Jewish charity dinner, the

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Speaker 2: invitation will say something like Central London venue, I'm told

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Speaker 2: the location maybe a couple of days before, sometimes on

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Speaker 2: the day itself. Again, that doesn't apply to any other

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Speaker 2: events which I go to. Jewish schools generally don't have

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Speaker 2: glass in the windows. They have heavy duty plastic. Our

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Speaker 2: Jewish schools have an evacuation alarm when there's a fire,

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Speaker 2: and they have a separate evacuation alarm in case there's

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Speaker 2: an attack from outside. And our five and six year

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Speaker 2: olds have to learn the difference. They have to learn

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Speaker 2: the safest place in their classroom to lie down if

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Speaker 2: people might shoot through the window. This is becoming normalized

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Speaker 2: for the Jewish community in the UK and many Jewish

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Speaker 2: communities around the world. And so that's one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons why I speak out. And I also speak out

433
00:28:23,173 --> 00:28:27,133
Speaker 2: because I believe in working for peace in the Middle East.

434
00:28:27,173 --> 00:28:30,053
Speaker 2: I believe that for as long as I can remember,

435
00:28:30,373 --> 00:28:32,293
Speaker 2: and that's the other reason why I speak out on

436
00:28:32,333 --> 00:28:32,933
Speaker 2: this issue.

437
00:28:33,373 --> 00:28:36,653
Speaker 3: So many tangents to pick up. When do you think

438
00:28:36,733 --> 00:28:39,693
Speaker 3: the anti Semitism in England started?

439
00:28:40,253 --> 00:28:43,413
Speaker 2: Well, that is a big question. I mean, I'm tempted

440
00:28:43,453 --> 00:28:48,373
Speaker 2: to respond to remind you that the Jewish community was

441
00:28:49,293 --> 00:28:53,413
Speaker 2: expelled from Britain in twelve ninety so you might say

442
00:28:53,693 --> 00:28:56,133
Speaker 2: there is a deep history. I mean the truth is

443
00:28:56,733 --> 00:29:02,693
Speaker 2: anti Semitism is a shape shifter. It started off, if

444
00:29:02,733 --> 00:29:06,693
Speaker 2: you go back in history, as religious antisemitism based on

445
00:29:07,493 --> 00:29:13,413
Speaker 2: Jews having a differ religion. Then it morphed into antisemitism

446
00:29:13,493 --> 00:29:15,853
Speaker 2: based on race, which was a course at the heart

447
00:29:15,933 --> 00:29:22,493
Speaker 2: of the Nazi ideology. Now Jews are criticized and singled

448
00:29:22,533 --> 00:29:26,253
Speaker 2: out for what the Jewish state does, so it's based

449
00:29:26,293 --> 00:29:31,693
Speaker 2: on nationalism. So I'm tempted to say that antisemitism is

450
00:29:31,733 --> 00:29:36,933
Speaker 2: always present. Its form changes over time, but there's no

451
00:29:37,013 --> 00:29:41,413
Speaker 2: doubt that I would say since the election of Jeremy

452
00:29:41,413 --> 00:29:45,933
Speaker 2: Corbyn as Labor Leader and then seventh of October was

453
00:29:45,973 --> 00:29:50,533
Speaker 2: undoubted the catalyst. In these last five, six, seven, eight years,

454
00:29:51,013 --> 00:29:55,653
Speaker 2: there has been an explosion of antisemitism in the UK,

455
00:29:56,533 --> 00:30:00,893
Speaker 2: both in terms of the number of anti Semitic incidents

456
00:30:01,253 --> 00:30:05,133
Speaker 2: and also the type of incidents with which we are

457
00:30:05,173 --> 00:30:05,693
Speaker 2: now dealing.

458
00:30:06,453 --> 00:30:10,493
Speaker 3: Okay, ask that question. That was loaded slightly from my

459
00:30:10,573 --> 00:30:15,093
Speaker 3: perspective because I first came across the word program in

460
00:30:15,133 --> 00:30:19,053
Speaker 3: a comic on Ivanhoe back in the twelfth century, and

461
00:30:19,093 --> 00:30:24,053
Speaker 3: that was my first my first experience with what took

462
00:30:24,093 --> 00:30:29,293
Speaker 3: place there, obviously, and what has taken place since, and

463
00:30:29,333 --> 00:30:33,693
Speaker 3: I actually attribute to that comic my continued interest in

464
00:30:33,733 --> 00:30:34,413
Speaker 3: such matters.

465
00:30:35,053 --> 00:30:37,973
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean that this is a subject with a

466
00:30:38,053 --> 00:30:41,013
Speaker 2: very long history. You know, if you go to York,

467
00:30:41,853 --> 00:30:47,053
Speaker 2: you'll find Clifford Tower, where roughly what is it now,

468
00:30:47,093 --> 00:30:50,053
Speaker 2: eight hundred perhaps slightly more than eight hundred years ago,

469
00:30:50,453 --> 00:30:54,253
Speaker 2: Jews decided to commit suicide rather than fall into the

470
00:30:54,293 --> 00:30:58,773
Speaker 2: hands of the mob. If you go to Norwich Cathedral,

471
00:30:59,653 --> 00:31:07,093
Speaker 2: you'll find a stained glass window commemorating essentially a blood libel.

472
00:31:07,493 --> 00:31:11,333
Speaker 2: I mean the church now put in place a plaque

473
00:31:11,413 --> 00:31:16,933
Speaker 2: explaining the origin of the window, but it was part

474
00:31:17,013 --> 00:31:20,733
Speaker 2: of the and is part of the fabric of the cathedral.

475
00:31:20,813 --> 00:31:24,453
Speaker 2: So these things are all around us. But we should

476
00:31:24,453 --> 00:31:28,413
Speaker 2: never be We should never be hemmed in by our history.

477
00:31:28,813 --> 00:31:32,093
Speaker 2: We should know our history. We need to learn from

478
00:31:32,093 --> 00:31:37,173
Speaker 2: our history. I'm more concerned about what's happening today, and

479
00:31:37,253 --> 00:31:41,213
Speaker 2: I think what's happening today is that there's a discourse

480
00:31:41,253 --> 00:31:46,453
Speaker 2: which is being normalized. What used to be only thought,

481
00:31:46,813 --> 00:31:51,653
Speaker 2: perhaps fifteen years ago, is now said. What used to

482
00:31:51,653 --> 00:31:55,133
Speaker 2: be only said is now written. What used to be

483
00:31:55,173 --> 00:31:58,613
Speaker 2: written is now published, and it's published in places where

484
00:31:58,653 --> 00:32:04,453
Speaker 2: it's also read and it's entering the general discourse. That's

485
00:32:04,493 --> 00:32:08,013
Speaker 2: what I'm concerned about, that there's a change in the

486
00:32:08,053 --> 00:32:13,733
Speaker 2: way society is looking at this issue and is dealing

487
00:32:13,773 --> 00:32:19,973
Speaker 2: with or failing to deal with this issue.

488
00:32:20,173 --> 00:32:24,893
Speaker 3: In New Zealand we have demonstrations, there are people who

489
00:32:24,893 --> 00:32:29,333
Speaker 3: will demonstrate against anything or about anything, but they're there,

490
00:32:30,253 --> 00:32:34,013
Speaker 3: but nothing along the lines of what is being experienced

491
00:32:34,813 --> 00:32:39,453
Speaker 3: right now in Australia, specifically in Victoria, the State of Victoria,

492
00:32:39,653 --> 00:32:44,333
Speaker 3: and secondly in New South Wales where over the last

493
00:32:44,373 --> 00:32:50,493
Speaker 3: weekend there was a demonstration of Nazis outside the House

494
00:32:50,533 --> 00:32:54,533
Speaker 3: of Parliament in This is the State House of Parliament

495
00:32:54,933 --> 00:33:01,773
Speaker 3: in Macquarie Street in Sydney. The Victorians are subjected to, well,

496
00:33:01,813 --> 00:33:07,453
Speaker 3: they're subjected to the outcome the result of having, in

497
00:33:07,493 --> 00:33:15,253
Speaker 3: my opinion, of having not just tolerated, but ignored the

498
00:33:15,293 --> 00:33:19,253
Speaker 3: sort of leadership that Victoria had for quite some number

499
00:33:19,293 --> 00:33:23,893
Speaker 3: of years. And of course it exploded when it came

500
00:33:23,933 --> 00:33:27,253
Speaker 3: to when it came to COVID, New Zealand and Victoria,

501
00:33:27,893 --> 00:33:31,053
Speaker 3: just in case you're unaware, competed for the for the

502
00:33:31,093 --> 00:33:41,613
Speaker 3: most aggress aggressively suppressing societies in the world. And so sorry,

503
00:33:43,173 --> 00:33:46,133
Speaker 3: and so that that has now moved on. In fact,

504
00:33:46,133 --> 00:33:51,053
Speaker 3: the Daniel Andrews, who was the most incompetent but most

505
00:33:51,133 --> 00:34:00,253
Speaker 3: disastrous and i'd say wicked evil, even Premiere of Victoria

506
00:34:00,853 --> 00:34:03,373
Speaker 3: has moved on because he had to. But he's been

507
00:34:03,413 --> 00:34:09,213
Speaker 3: replaced by a female, and not that he's been replaced

508
00:34:09,253 --> 00:34:12,853
Speaker 3: by a woman who is arguably worse than he was

509
00:34:13,853 --> 00:34:18,013
Speaker 3: at this point of time. Why is it do you

510
00:34:18,133 --> 00:34:22,613
Speaker 3: think that Australia And you would know plenty about Australia

511
00:34:22,653 --> 00:34:25,613
Speaker 3: about it's about some of its history at least, and

512
00:34:25,893 --> 00:34:30,613
Speaker 3: the sort of country it is, or it was because

513
00:34:30,693 --> 00:34:35,053
Speaker 3: it was a country of freedom. I grew up there,

514
00:34:35,213 --> 00:34:37,573
Speaker 3: I was born there, and I grew up there in

515
00:34:37,613 --> 00:34:44,613
Speaker 3: Melbourne actually, which is now suffering terribly. And over a

516
00:34:44,613 --> 00:34:46,853
Speaker 3: period of years, I've asked the question of anyone who

517
00:34:46,933 --> 00:34:50,653
Speaker 3: I thought was worthy of responding to it, what is

518
00:34:50,693 --> 00:34:56,853
Speaker 3: going on? Why do you keep voting for this particular administration?

519
00:34:58,813 --> 00:35:01,413
Speaker 3: And most of them were shrugged their shoulders and say, oh, well,

520
00:35:01,413 --> 00:35:05,213
Speaker 3: what's the matter. It's you know, everything's okay. Well it isn't,

521
00:35:06,253 --> 00:35:08,293
Speaker 3: and it hasn't been for a long time. And that's

522
00:35:08,373 --> 00:35:11,733
Speaker 3: only one example from numerous countries and states all over

523
00:35:11,773 --> 00:35:17,613
Speaker 3: the world question, how did this come about? What happened

524
00:35:17,893 --> 00:35:20,973
Speaker 3: in Western civilization to turn this up?

525
00:35:23,493 --> 00:35:25,533
Speaker 2: Well, I think that again that's a very big question.

526
00:35:25,653 --> 00:35:28,773
Speaker 2: I think a short answer would focus on the fact

527
00:35:28,773 --> 00:35:34,133
Speaker 2: that perhaps we are not as muscular about defending our

528
00:35:34,173 --> 00:35:39,093
Speaker 2: own values very good way. Yeah, I mean, you know,

529
00:35:39,413 --> 00:35:45,733
Speaker 2: the values of free speech, of tolerance, of liberalism, of democracy.

530
00:35:46,693 --> 00:35:49,533
Speaker 2: History shows that those values had to be fought for.

531
00:35:50,413 --> 00:35:53,973
Speaker 2: Often they had to be dark to people died for them.

532
00:35:54,653 --> 00:36:00,373
Speaker 2: They don't just arise, and if you don't tend them carefully,

533
00:36:00,413 --> 00:36:03,653
Speaker 2: if you don't really look after them, and sometimes, as

534
00:36:03,693 --> 00:36:06,693
Speaker 2: I say, in a muscular fashion, you will lose them.

535
00:36:07,493 --> 00:36:12,653
Speaker 2: And I think there is a reluctant sometimes in Western

536
00:36:12,693 --> 00:36:19,053
Speaker 2: societies to be confident about our own values. I mean,

537
00:36:19,333 --> 00:36:23,013
Speaker 2: I see in my own family. It's very simple. In

538
00:36:23,053 --> 00:36:27,253
Speaker 2: my family, those of us who emigrated all those years

539
00:36:27,293 --> 00:36:32,613
Speaker 2: ago to the UK and somewhere to Canada survived and

540
00:36:32,653 --> 00:36:35,573
Speaker 2: those who didn't were all murdered. And they were all

541
00:36:35,693 --> 00:36:39,693
Speaker 2: murdered because they lived in countries where fascism and communism

542
00:36:39,773 --> 00:36:45,133
Speaker 2: swallowed them up. So we have to defend the values

543
00:36:45,173 --> 00:36:50,693
Speaker 2: we have, and that means sometimes being fairly muscular about it.

544
00:36:51,013 --> 00:36:56,453
Speaker 2: We shouldn't allow people to undermine our societies from within,

545
00:36:56,533 --> 00:36:59,933
Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be naive that there are such people

546
00:37:00,813 --> 00:37:05,253
Speaker 2: who do hate a lot of what Western societies stand

547
00:37:05,293 --> 00:37:08,533
Speaker 2: for and do try to undermine those societies.

548
00:37:08,973 --> 00:37:11,133
Speaker 3: How much is education got to do with it, as Sarah,

549
00:37:11,133 --> 00:37:14,413
Speaker 3: as you're concerned, all.

550
00:37:14,253 --> 00:37:16,773
Speaker 2: The education has got a lot to do with it.

551
00:37:18,533 --> 00:37:23,533
Speaker 2: And I believe very strongly that our schools should be

552
00:37:23,573 --> 00:37:26,333
Speaker 2: places where we teach I don't know what it's called

553
00:37:26,333 --> 00:37:28,493
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, but it used to be called in

554
00:37:28,533 --> 00:37:31,973
Speaker 2: the UK civics. Teach people what it means to be

555
00:37:32,013 --> 00:37:38,293
Speaker 2: a citizen, Teach people how our democratic institutions work, Teach

556
00:37:38,293 --> 00:37:41,453
Speaker 2: people the value of those institutions, and not to be

557
00:37:42,253 --> 00:37:45,333
Speaker 2: afraid of them. I mean, when it comes to the

558
00:37:45,413 --> 00:37:50,253
Speaker 2: ways in which societies are ordered, I don't believe that

559
00:37:50,493 --> 00:37:55,133
Speaker 2: all societies are equal. I don't believe that a society

560
00:37:55,253 --> 00:37:59,293
Speaker 2: run by a despot is equally as good as a

561
00:37:59,333 --> 00:38:03,613
Speaker 2: democratic society. I don't believe a society which is subject

562
00:38:03,693 --> 00:38:08,293
Speaker 2: to religious fundamentalism is equally as good as a democratic society.

563
00:38:08,453 --> 00:38:10,173
Speaker 2: I think we shouldn't be afraid of saying that.

564
00:38:12,253 --> 00:38:16,573
Speaker 3: Let me quote you from a short column. A civilization

565
00:38:16,693 --> 00:38:19,933
Speaker 3: is defined by its ability to discern truth from falsehood.

566
00:38:20,173 --> 00:38:23,013
Speaker 3: So what happens when every apparatus built for that purpose

567
00:38:23,053 --> 00:38:29,013
Speaker 3: is systematically dismantled. Brett Weinstein issues a stark warning, we're

568
00:38:29,013 --> 00:38:33,373
Speaker 3: living through a coordinated sabotage of our truth seeking institutions.

569
00:38:34,213 --> 00:38:37,413
Speaker 3: This is not a minor critique. It is a fundamental

570
00:38:37,413 --> 00:38:41,693
Speaker 3: attack on the very mechanisms of a functional society. And

571
00:38:41,773 --> 00:38:45,173
Speaker 3: he touches on the university system, once a beacon of knowledge,

572
00:38:45,173 --> 00:38:48,173
Speaker 3: now a source of unreliable research and curricula that teach

573
00:38:48,653 --> 00:38:54,373
Speaker 3: verifiably false concepts. As truth regulatory agencies, these bodies have

574
00:38:54,453 --> 00:38:57,533
Speaker 3: been inverted. Their purpose is no longer to protect citizens

575
00:38:57,573 --> 00:39:00,573
Speaker 3: from harm, but to protect the regulators and the system

576
00:39:00,693 --> 00:39:05,853
Speaker 3: from the citizens they're meant to serve. And scientific integrity,

577
00:39:06,213 --> 00:39:09,453
Speaker 3: we are left grappling in the dark on critical issues.

578
00:39:09,893 --> 00:39:14,133
Speaker 3: Determining something as scientifically straightforward as the potential link between

579
00:39:14,613 --> 00:39:18,853
Speaker 3: mRNA vaccines and turbo cancers should be a matter of

580
00:39:18,853 --> 00:39:22,653
Speaker 3: transparent data. Instead, we are forced to rely on buried

581
00:39:22,693 --> 00:39:31,533
Speaker 3: anecdotes and studies designed to fail. One more line, this

582
00:39:31,693 --> 00:39:35,533
Speaker 3: is the realization of Renee de car that the very

583
00:39:35,653 --> 00:39:39,413
Speaker 3: foundations of what we believe to be factual cannot be trusted.

584
00:39:40,253 --> 00:39:41,493
Speaker 3: Are we able to rescue it?

585
00:39:42,253 --> 00:39:47,013
Speaker 2: Well, I'm an optimist. I always think things can be rescued,

586
00:39:47,773 --> 00:39:49,813
Speaker 2: and I do think all of this can be rescued.

587
00:39:50,533 --> 00:39:52,333
Speaker 2: I mean I should say I'm not sure I agree

588
00:39:52,533 --> 00:39:55,813
Speaker 2: with all of the points in that quote, but I

589
00:39:55,853 --> 00:40:00,933
Speaker 2: do agree. For example, when it comes to academia, it's clear,

590
00:40:01,013 --> 00:40:04,693
Speaker 2: certainly in the UK that there has been a significant

591
00:40:04,733 --> 00:40:09,893
Speaker 2: decline in the proportion of academics who would see themselves

592
00:40:09,973 --> 00:40:14,053
Speaker 2: as on the right, and a significant rise in academics

593
00:40:14,053 --> 00:40:16,973
Speaker 2: who see themselves as on the political left. And of

594
00:40:16,973 --> 00:40:20,453
Speaker 2: course the problem with that is that our universities ought

595
00:40:20,453 --> 00:40:25,773
Speaker 2: to be a place where all viewpoints can be explored, challenged,

596
00:40:26,733 --> 00:40:31,733
Speaker 2: up for debate. In the same way, I sometimes do

597
00:40:31,813 --> 00:40:36,333
Speaker 2: have a concern that it's a lot harder, for example,

598
00:40:36,493 --> 00:40:40,173
Speaker 2: to say certain things from a right wing perspective in

599
00:40:40,213 --> 00:40:44,373
Speaker 2: a university context than it is from a left wing perspective.

600
00:40:46,053 --> 00:40:49,053
Speaker 2: So this is part I think of what we were

601
00:40:49,093 --> 00:40:51,973
Speaker 2: talking about earlier, that we have to make sure that

602
00:40:52,053 --> 00:40:56,333
Speaker 2: all parts of our society, whether it's universities or regulators

603
00:40:56,933 --> 00:41:02,733
Speaker 2: or frankly anything else, all subscribed to and are part

604
00:41:02,813 --> 00:41:08,493
Speaker 2: of the overall ecology of our society, because if you

605
00:41:08,533 --> 00:41:12,453
Speaker 2: don't take active steps to protect it, you will lose it.

606
00:41:12,453 --> 00:41:15,133
Speaker 3: It brings me back to something that I said we'd

607
00:41:15,173 --> 00:41:20,053
Speaker 3: come to till later, and we're closing in on headquarters.

608
00:41:20,653 --> 00:41:24,813
Speaker 3: I brought back from England a few weeks ago a

609
00:41:24,893 --> 00:41:29,773
Speaker 3: book by Sam Friedman failed state why Britain doesn't work

610
00:41:30,333 --> 00:41:36,533
Speaker 3: and how we fix it. More recently, this was published

611
00:41:37,413 --> 00:41:40,893
Speaker 3: written by Rod Dreyer, and it's been published in a

612
00:41:40,933 --> 00:41:44,413
Speaker 3: couple of a couple of journals, particularly I think European

613
00:41:44,453 --> 00:41:48,333
Speaker 3: conservative will there always be in England. Most Americans are

614
00:41:48,373 --> 00:41:51,333
Speaker 3: angler files It's in our blood. Yes, our ancestors fought

615
00:41:51,333 --> 00:41:53,613
Speaker 3: a bloody revolution to free ourselves from the British crown.

616
00:41:53,653 --> 00:41:56,893
Speaker 3: But outside of the United Kingdom itself, you will find

617
00:41:56,973 --> 00:42:00,653
Speaker 3: no people more eager to swoon over British royalty than Americans.

618
00:42:01,213 --> 00:42:04,773
Speaker 3: More substantively, our love and admiration for the British has

619
00:42:04,853 --> 00:42:08,973
Speaker 3: to do with a heady mix of Churchill, Wilberforce, Tolkien,

620
00:42:09,813 --> 00:42:14,013
Speaker 3: Lennon and McCartney, and other extraordinary examples of courage, wisdom

621
00:42:14,133 --> 00:42:17,253
Speaker 3: and creativity. He quotes a few lines from the song

622
00:42:17,853 --> 00:42:20,613
Speaker 3: There'll always be in England, and then says it has

623
00:42:20,653 --> 00:42:25,653
Speaker 3: become possible now to doubt that sentimental claim, precisely because

624
00:42:25,653 --> 00:42:28,453
Speaker 3: England has ceased to mean much to its ruling class

625
00:42:29,053 --> 00:42:32,493
Speaker 3: and to many Englishmen. A friend who is a respected

626
00:42:32,533 --> 00:42:34,853
Speaker 3: member of the British establishment wrote to me last week

627
00:42:34,893 --> 00:42:37,973
Speaker 3: in despair. No sign it's going to get any better,

628
00:42:38,573 --> 00:42:40,413
Speaker 3: or that there is any way the country can come

629
00:42:40,453 --> 00:42:45,333
Speaker 3: back from this. We faced wars, recessions and pandemics for centuries,

630
00:42:45,773 --> 00:42:50,573
Speaker 3: but this is different. And then there was another one,

631
00:42:50,573 --> 00:42:53,813
Speaker 3: and this was the one that originally triggered me, written

632
00:42:53,853 --> 00:42:59,133
Speaker 3: by Christopher Caldwell, Will there always be in England? That headline,

633
00:42:59,173 --> 00:43:03,133
Speaker 3: if you like, is appearing in numerous places. Now are

634
00:43:03,133 --> 00:43:06,613
Speaker 3: they on track or is your optimism more correct?

635
00:43:07,213 --> 00:43:09,173
Speaker 2: I don't think thou on Tree in the sense that

636
00:43:09,333 --> 00:43:16,573
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm not apocalyptic about England. I think

637
00:43:16,573 --> 00:43:20,013
Speaker 2: there are significant threats to the United Kingdom in the

638
00:43:20,053 --> 00:43:24,933
Speaker 2: sense that Scotland wants to break away, and of course

639
00:43:25,253 --> 00:43:29,973
Speaker 2: there's always the bubbling issue of Northern Ireland. But I

640
00:43:30,053 --> 00:43:33,933
Speaker 2: do think there will always be an England. My concern

641
00:43:34,053 --> 00:43:36,653
Speaker 2: is what sort of England will it be? One of

642
00:43:36,693 --> 00:43:39,333
Speaker 2: the issues I think we have to face and we

643
00:43:39,413 --> 00:43:41,933
Speaker 2: have to deal with is that. And I'm not making

644
00:43:41,933 --> 00:43:44,453
Speaker 2: a party political point here. I think this is a

645
00:43:44,533 --> 00:43:49,333
Speaker 2: general point. There has been a significant decline in the

646
00:43:49,413 --> 00:43:53,293
Speaker 2: number and quality of people going into public service. Yes,

647
00:43:53,813 --> 00:43:56,053
Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say, and that I don't

648
00:43:56,133 --> 00:43:59,373
Speaker 2: mean to single out any party or any particular individuals,

649
00:44:00,133 --> 00:44:02,773
Speaker 2: but I think it's fair to say that the House

650
00:44:02,813 --> 00:44:06,053
Speaker 2: of Commons of say, twenty twenty five does not necessarily

651
00:44:06,693 --> 00:44:09,933
Speaker 2: measure up well when against the House of Commons of

652
00:44:10,573 --> 00:44:14,133
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five or nineteen forty five. And there are

653
00:44:14,173 --> 00:44:17,973
Speaker 2: deep reasons for that. Social media makes it unattractive to

654
00:44:18,013 --> 00:44:22,693
Speaker 2: go into public life. We probably don't pay MPs enough,

655
00:44:23,213 --> 00:44:26,373
Speaker 2: although of course there will be a huge outcry if

656
00:44:26,373 --> 00:44:30,333
Speaker 2: we sought to pay them anymore. We've developed a political

657
00:44:30,453 --> 00:44:36,093
Speaker 2: class where people become MPs not having had any experience

658
00:44:36,173 --> 00:44:39,013
Speaker 2: in what you might call the real world beforehand, and

659
00:44:39,293 --> 00:44:42,613
Speaker 2: all of these lead to a decline in the quality

660
00:44:42,653 --> 00:44:48,373
Speaker 2: of people in politics and the risk that a political

661
00:44:48,453 --> 00:44:51,693
Speaker 2: class talks to itself. I think the greatest threat to

662
00:44:51,733 --> 00:44:54,733
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom is a threat actually which I think

663
00:44:55,093 --> 00:45:01,813
Speaker 2: is faced by many democracies, which is disillusionment of people

664
00:45:01,893 --> 00:45:05,293
Speaker 2: walking away from the political process, of people thinking that

665
00:45:05,853 --> 00:45:09,653
Speaker 2: politics is irrelevant to their life lives and can't provide

666
00:45:09,693 --> 00:45:13,893
Speaker 2: the answers to their questions. Because once that gets a hold,

667
00:45:14,333 --> 00:45:17,413
Speaker 2: history teaches us that there's only one way out of it.

668
00:45:17,493 --> 00:45:19,133
Speaker 2: And the one way out of it is normally that

669
00:45:19,213 --> 00:45:25,173
Speaker 2: people go for extremists and fanatics and people who who

670
00:45:25,653 --> 00:45:30,133
Speaker 2: apply and promise simplistic solutions to complex problems, and that

671
00:45:30,333 --> 00:45:34,893
Speaker 2: is even more dangerous. So I often say to school

672
00:45:34,973 --> 00:45:37,973
Speaker 2: children when I go to speak at schools, or to

673
00:45:38,133 --> 00:45:40,573
Speaker 2: young people who might be voting for the first time,

674
00:45:41,133 --> 00:45:44,453
Speaker 2: I would rather you vote it for a party other

675
00:45:44,533 --> 00:45:48,053
Speaker 2: than mine than you just didn't bother to vote at all.

676
00:45:49,133 --> 00:45:52,133
Speaker 2: I think we need to engage people again in the

677
00:45:52,173 --> 00:45:55,813
Speaker 2: political process, to engage them again in the society in

678
00:45:55,853 --> 00:46:00,693
Speaker 2: which they live, because that's all part of maintaining our

679
00:46:00,813 --> 00:46:06,653
Speaker 2: values of having a united society, of having a civic

680
00:46:06,933 --> 00:46:10,813
Speaker 2: society and civic vere virtues which we all subscribe to

681
00:46:10,853 --> 00:46:13,173
Speaker 2: and which we all believe in. And that's ultimately the

682
00:46:13,213 --> 00:46:15,133
Speaker 2: way to create a swung and I would say a

683
00:46:15,173 --> 00:46:17,533
Speaker 2: successful society.

684
00:46:17,933 --> 00:46:21,693
Speaker 3: Speaking of successful or otherwise. Peter Tiel, the American billionaire,

685
00:46:21,773 --> 00:46:23,733
Speaker 3: has just done the last twenty four hours or so,

686
00:46:24,573 --> 00:46:29,893
Speaker 3: made some comment on the fact that free enterprise isn't

687
00:46:29,973 --> 00:46:34,613
Speaker 3: working for young people today, and on that basis, they're

688
00:46:34,653 --> 00:46:39,653
Speaker 3: responding to other trigger points that take them down the

689
00:46:39,733 --> 00:46:46,293
Speaker 3: road to well, in some cases self destruction. But demonstrations

690
00:46:46,333 --> 00:46:50,533
Speaker 3: and riots and demands, etc. Does that forward of the

691
00:46:50,573 --> 00:46:53,573
Speaker 3: same category as because I think it does the same

692
00:46:53,653 --> 00:46:56,893
Speaker 3: category but a different sector of what you just said

693
00:46:56,933 --> 00:47:01,813
Speaker 3: about people walking away from from politics because they don't

694
00:47:01,813 --> 00:47:03,213
Speaker 3: think it's relevant to them anymore.

695
00:47:05,373 --> 00:47:09,213
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it does. I think as a society

696
00:47:09,253 --> 00:47:11,453
Speaker 2: we need to recognize that at the moment, if you

697
00:47:11,533 --> 00:47:14,413
Speaker 2: leave university, for example, at the age of twenty two,

698
00:47:15,573 --> 00:47:19,613
Speaker 2: you're leaving university often with a lot of debt, with

699
00:47:19,733 --> 00:47:24,253
Speaker 2: a degree which in many cases is not actually that

700
00:47:24,373 --> 00:47:29,133
Speaker 2: valuable in the workplace. You're facing a job market which

701
00:47:29,173 --> 00:47:33,173
Speaker 2: is very tight. You're looking at a housing market where

702
00:47:33,173 --> 00:47:36,213
Speaker 2: we haven't built enough houses and you'll be renting for

703
00:47:36,253 --> 00:47:39,653
Speaker 2: a long time. And this is a real problem. I

704
00:47:39,693 --> 00:47:43,213
Speaker 2: mean it's not only a problem for the Conservative Party,

705
00:47:43,893 --> 00:47:46,973
Speaker 2: my party in the sense that if people don't have

706
00:47:47,053 --> 00:47:51,013
Speaker 2: assets to conserve, why will they vote Conservative? If I

707
00:47:51,013 --> 00:47:52,813
Speaker 2: can be a little bit flippant about it, but there

708
00:47:52,893 --> 00:47:55,333
Speaker 2: is a real point there. But it's a problem for

709
00:47:55,413 --> 00:48:01,093
Speaker 2: society generally, because we want all parts of society to

710
00:48:01,133 --> 00:48:05,453
Speaker 2: be fully engaged in society, and I think there is

711
00:48:05,733 --> 00:48:09,853
Speaker 2: a perception that there is a general rational divide in

712
00:48:09,933 --> 00:48:14,813
Speaker 2: our society, and that is dangerous. I think you see

713
00:48:14,813 --> 00:48:17,293
Speaker 2: it in the opinion polls. I mean, that's why when

714
00:48:17,333 --> 00:48:20,413
Speaker 2: you look at who says they'll vote for the more

715
00:48:20,453 --> 00:48:26,893
Speaker 2: extreme parties, younger people are disproportionately represented in the people

716
00:48:26,893 --> 00:48:28,693
Speaker 2: who will vote for some of those parties.

717
00:48:29,613 --> 00:48:32,173
Speaker 3: I think, finally, there's actually a couple more things I'd

718
00:48:32,213 --> 00:48:36,253
Speaker 3: like to touch on. One is Israel and take it

719
00:48:36,293 --> 00:48:40,093
Speaker 3: a step further. I think I'm right in suggesting that

720
00:48:40,253 --> 00:48:46,333
Speaker 3: you promote or believe a two state system is the answer.

721
00:48:47,213 --> 00:48:50,373
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I've always believed in what I call

722
00:48:50,413 --> 00:48:55,053
Speaker 2: a two state framework in the sense that ideally I

723
00:48:55,453 --> 00:49:00,373
Speaker 2: believe there should be a secure Israel and also a

724
00:49:00,573 --> 00:49:04,293
Speaker 2: Palestinian entity, and the nature of that is a matter

725
00:49:04,333 --> 00:49:07,813
Speaker 2: of negotiation, but I think at the moment that is

726
00:49:07,893 --> 00:49:12,373
Speaker 2: the best way to peace. Whether it's realistic in the

727
00:49:12,413 --> 00:49:15,533
Speaker 2: short term. After what happened on October the seventh is

728
00:49:15,533 --> 00:49:18,733
Speaker 2: a different question. But in the long term, I think

729
00:49:18,773 --> 00:49:22,453
Speaker 2: that's the most likely route to peace, together with a

730
00:49:22,573 --> 00:49:27,093
Speaker 2: large measure of involvement by the Arab countries in the

731
00:49:27,173 --> 00:49:30,213
Speaker 2: region and the Gulf countries. And that's why the Abraham

732
00:49:30,213 --> 00:49:34,133
Speaker 2: Accords are so important and really are a political game

733
00:49:34,253 --> 00:49:35,653
Speaker 2: changer in the region.

734
00:49:36,213 --> 00:49:41,053
Speaker 3: It bothers me that I'm trying to rephrase what I

735
00:49:41,173 --> 00:49:44,733
Speaker 3: would normally say, and I won't. I'll just say it.

736
00:49:44,733 --> 00:49:49,413
Speaker 3: It bothers me that people think that a Palestinian state

737
00:49:49,693 --> 00:49:54,533
Speaker 3: with a border with Israel would settle down to a

738
00:49:54,613 --> 00:49:58,813
Speaker 3: calm and the friendly future with the belief and the

739
00:49:58,853 --> 00:50:02,013
Speaker 3: behavior that we've witnessed over a lengthy period of time. Now,

740
00:50:02,293 --> 00:50:05,013
Speaker 3: it would only be a matter in my humble opinion,

741
00:50:06,253 --> 00:50:09,693
Speaker 3: before the repetition starts, as to what we've just experienced

742
00:50:09,973 --> 00:50:11,893
Speaker 3: or what has been experienced there.

743
00:50:13,733 --> 00:50:16,533
Speaker 2: Well, that's why I said that I think it's going

744
00:50:16,573 --> 00:50:19,453
Speaker 2: to be unlikely in the short term because what I

745
00:50:19,573 --> 00:50:24,053
Speaker 2: see in Israel, especially after October the seventh, is that

746
00:50:24,093 --> 00:50:28,853
Speaker 2: the Overton window has moved. People who used to vote

747
00:50:29,213 --> 00:50:32,693
Speaker 2: left on now voting centrist, people used to vote centrist

748
00:50:32,733 --> 00:50:34,853
Speaker 2: and now voting right, and people who used to vote

749
00:50:34,933 --> 00:50:39,093
Speaker 2: right and now voting extreme right, and you can understand

750
00:50:39,613 --> 00:50:44,293
Speaker 2: why that is, and certainly I'm not going to criticize them,

751
00:50:44,973 --> 00:50:48,613
Speaker 2: given the appalling nature of October the seventh, I mean,

752
00:50:48,653 --> 00:50:53,293
Speaker 2: it was the largest murder of Jews in a single

753
00:50:53,373 --> 00:50:58,173
Speaker 2: day since the Holocaust, So one can absolutely understand that

754
00:50:58,173 --> 00:51:02,853
Speaker 2: that's the reaction in Israel. And certainly there's no doubt

755
00:51:02,973 --> 00:51:09,093
Speaker 2: that the education system in the Palestinian authority, certainly in

756
00:51:09,453 --> 00:51:14,333
Speaker 2: Hamas run Gaza, of course, it needs to be radically overhauled,

757
00:51:14,373 --> 00:51:19,293
Speaker 2: and I, like others, am concerned about the at best

758
00:51:19,573 --> 00:51:25,853
Speaker 2: passive and naive role that UNRUH and other UN agencies

759
00:51:25,893 --> 00:51:28,413
Speaker 2: have played in that regard. When you look at some

760
00:51:28,493 --> 00:51:32,453
Speaker 2: of the Palestinian textbooks which are funded by these and

761
00:51:32,533 --> 00:51:37,173
Speaker 2: other international organizations, they are quite frankly appalling and contain

762
00:51:37,733 --> 00:51:43,053
Speaker 2: often direct incitement to violence and murder. With all of

763
00:51:43,093 --> 00:51:45,933
Speaker 2: that said, and without sounding like somebody who has his

764
00:51:46,053 --> 00:51:49,533
Speaker 2: head absolutely in the clouds, if you ask me, well,

765
00:51:50,933 --> 00:51:53,693
Speaker 2: if there is a solution, what is it, I do

766
00:51:53,813 --> 00:51:59,773
Speaker 2: continue to believe that ultimately that ultimately I hope that

767
00:51:59,933 --> 00:52:04,893
Speaker 2: leadership will arise on the Palestinian side which will be

768
00:52:04,933 --> 00:52:08,733
Speaker 2: able both to do a deal with Israel and also

769
00:52:08,853 --> 00:52:12,933
Speaker 2: to maintain order in their own territories. I mean, it's

770
00:52:12,933 --> 00:52:17,253
Speaker 2: a tragedy that yes Arafat refused the deal which was

771
00:52:17,293 --> 00:52:21,453
Speaker 2: offered to him at Camp David by Ehud Barak under

772
00:52:21,453 --> 00:52:25,613
Speaker 2: the presidency of Bill Clinton. And indeed, the history of

773
00:52:25,693 --> 00:52:29,293
Speaker 2: the Middle East has been of deals which have been refused,

774
00:52:29,933 --> 00:52:32,453
Speaker 2: only for people later to want that very deal which

775
00:52:32,493 --> 00:52:36,773
Speaker 2: before they'd said no to. So the history isn't good.

776
00:52:37,133 --> 00:52:39,773
Speaker 2: But as I said earlier, we shouldn't be trapped by

777
00:52:39,773 --> 00:52:41,813
Speaker 2: our history. We need to learn from our history, be

778
00:52:41,893 --> 00:52:45,173
Speaker 2: aware of our history. But we still need to move forward.

779
00:52:45,333 --> 00:52:50,173
Speaker 2: If I told you thirty years ago that there would

780
00:52:50,213 --> 00:52:56,493
Speaker 2: be a peace deal between Israel and the UAE, you

781
00:52:56,573 --> 00:53:00,813
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have believed me. You know, there aren't now,

782
00:53:01,213 --> 00:53:04,613
Speaker 2: as we read in the papers, serious moves to a

783
00:53:04,653 --> 00:53:08,613
Speaker 2: normalization deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Indeed, some people

784
00:53:08,613 --> 00:53:11,973
Speaker 2: say that's why Hamas launched the seventh of October attacks

785
00:53:11,973 --> 00:53:16,053
Speaker 2: in order to try and scuffer that normalization process. So

786
00:53:16,493 --> 00:53:20,453
Speaker 2: there are positive developments. There is now a peace treaty

787
00:53:20,453 --> 00:53:24,813
Speaker 2: between Israel and Egypt, Israel and Jordan. One reads that

788
00:53:24,853 --> 00:53:28,653
Speaker 2: there are even talks going on between Israel and Syria,

789
00:53:28,733 --> 00:53:32,853
Speaker 2: perhaps through intermediaries. So I am an optimist. I hope

790
00:53:32,853 --> 00:53:35,813
Speaker 2: I'm a realist as well. But I am optimistic because

791
00:53:35,893 --> 00:53:39,293
Speaker 2: ultimately we have to work for peace. Jews have been

792
00:53:39,333 --> 00:53:43,893
Speaker 2: praying for peace for more than three thousand jurors, and

793
00:53:44,133 --> 00:53:47,093
Speaker 2: now that there is an independent jurist state, we have

794
00:53:47,133 --> 00:53:50,173
Speaker 2: an opportunity to work for peace and not just pray

795
00:53:50,213 --> 00:53:50,653
Speaker 2: for peace.

796
00:53:51,973 --> 00:53:53,733
Speaker 3: I don't want to spend much more time on this,

797
00:53:53,853 --> 00:53:59,133
Speaker 3: but you mentioned unware, and therefore I am am forced

798
00:53:59,653 --> 00:54:05,933
Speaker 3: and obligated to raise this particular point. The person who

799
00:54:05,973 --> 00:54:08,853
Speaker 3: was in charge of unwar is an next New Zealand

800
00:54:08,853 --> 00:54:15,013
Speaker 3: Prime minister. She pooh poohs any criticism of unwar and

801
00:54:15,093 --> 00:54:19,853
Speaker 3: what pretty much and what has gone on at the

802
00:54:19,893 --> 00:54:26,293
Speaker 3: border and with regard to food supplies, etc. And suggests

803
00:54:27,013 --> 00:54:30,373
Speaker 3: that the Israelis are doing things that they shouldn't be

804
00:54:30,413 --> 00:54:36,053
Speaker 3: doing and not responding correctly when they're asked questions about it. Gosh,

805
00:54:36,053 --> 00:54:38,573
Speaker 3: I didn't know I could be that diplomatic. What would

806
00:54:38,653 --> 00:54:39,493
Speaker 3: you say to her?

807
00:54:40,773 --> 00:54:46,973
Speaker 2: I think if I can pinch Mandy Vice Davis's response

808
00:54:47,053 --> 00:54:51,253
Speaker 2: to counsel in the famous Perfumer case, well, she would

809
00:54:51,253 --> 00:54:55,333
Speaker 2: say that wouldn't she, But the facts speak for themselves.

810
00:54:55,813 --> 00:55:01,413
Speaker 2: It's not just the ANOIR employees who took part in

811
00:55:01,453 --> 00:55:07,813
Speaker 2: the October the seventh massacres. It's not only the schools

812
00:55:09,253 --> 00:55:14,693
Speaker 2: run which were teaching frankly horrific stuff. It's not only

813
00:55:14,733 --> 00:55:19,013
Speaker 2: that some of the hostages, as I understand, were held

814
00:55:19,053 --> 00:55:23,133
Speaker 2: by people who maintained positions in unwor I e. Garzan's

815
00:55:23,173 --> 00:55:27,213
Speaker 2: who are connected with UNWA. It's not only the case

816
00:55:27,333 --> 00:55:32,213
Speaker 2: that when the battles were being fought that there were

817
00:55:32,773 --> 00:55:38,453
Speaker 2: entrances to tunnels right in Unrah institutions. These were entrances

818
00:55:38,533 --> 00:55:45,933
Speaker 2: to Hamath terrorist tunnels. So I think one needs to

819
00:55:45,973 --> 00:55:51,693
Speaker 2: look at those what should I say, denials, excuses, apologies,

820
00:55:51,733 --> 00:55:56,213
Speaker 2: Well it's not an apology, perhaps excuses. One has to

821
00:55:56,253 --> 00:56:00,173
Speaker 2: take a fair pinch of salt. Of course, there are

822
00:56:00,213 --> 00:56:03,853
Speaker 2: good things that UNWA does. I mean, of course, every

823
00:56:03,893 --> 00:56:08,013
Speaker 2: institution does some good things. But I am concerned that

824
00:56:08,613 --> 00:56:13,693
Speaker 2: AUNOIR has become, so to speak, one sided in its approach.

825
00:56:14,813 --> 00:56:18,213
Speaker 2: And I'm not the only one who has serious concerns

826
00:56:18,253 --> 00:56:21,093
Speaker 2: about both its leadership and its operation.

827
00:56:22,333 --> 00:56:26,533
Speaker 3: There are any number of British people who live here,

828
00:56:27,213 --> 00:56:31,013
Speaker 3: and many of them are very concerned about a themselves,

829
00:56:31,093 --> 00:56:33,853
Speaker 3: be their families who are still there, and I'm talking

830
00:56:33,893 --> 00:56:39,693
Speaker 3: about in England who are still there and what seems

831
00:56:39,733 --> 00:56:44,413
Speaker 3: to be taking place. It's my opinion that the greatest

832
00:56:44,613 --> 00:56:48,933
Speaker 3: problem confronting you in England is the number of immigrants

833
00:56:48,973 --> 00:56:51,693
Speaker 3: that are coming into the country. And when I say that,

834
00:56:51,773 --> 00:56:56,373
Speaker 3: I'm talking specifically illegal immigrants who are pouring into the

835
00:56:56,413 --> 00:57:01,293
Speaker 3: country now in boat loads, and what we see from

836
00:57:01,373 --> 00:57:04,653
Speaker 3: that is a lot of chaos and a lot of

837
00:57:04,693 --> 00:57:09,453
Speaker 3: agro and I think those who are pushing back on it, well,

838
00:57:09,973 --> 00:57:12,133
Speaker 3: even if I don't, even if we don't approve of

839
00:57:12,213 --> 00:57:14,613
Speaker 3: what they what they do or say, are on the

840
00:57:14,733 --> 00:57:17,813
Speaker 3: right are on the right train. And then of course

841
00:57:17,853 --> 00:57:22,053
Speaker 3: you could clip onto that the grooming, the grooming groups

842
00:57:22,053 --> 00:57:25,693
Speaker 3: that have taken up so much space of recent times,

843
00:57:26,293 --> 00:57:29,133
Speaker 3: as brief as you like, how do you respond.

844
00:57:29,093 --> 00:57:31,813
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I mean, you're absolutely right that

845
00:57:31,853 --> 00:57:35,453
Speaker 2: there's lots of British people living in New Zealand, and

846
00:57:35,493 --> 00:57:38,173
Speaker 2: I'm also delighted that there are lots of former Kiwis

847
00:57:38,693 --> 00:57:41,213
Speaker 2: who live in the UK and they contribute a lot

848
00:57:41,533 --> 00:57:43,293
Speaker 2: to the UK and it's great to have such a

849
00:57:43,373 --> 00:57:48,053
Speaker 2: vibrant the Kiwi community in the UK. Of course, immigration

850
00:57:48,533 --> 00:57:55,893
Speaker 2: is a real problem. It's both the number and the

851
00:57:55,973 --> 00:58:02,213
Speaker 2: rapidity of the immigration that we have which is the issue.

852
00:58:02,533 --> 00:58:06,253
Speaker 2: In other words, it's not just the absolute number, it's

853
00:58:06,533 --> 00:58:11,333
Speaker 2: how quickly they've The one point I think I disagree

854
00:58:11,373 --> 00:58:14,253
Speaker 2: with you on is just when you sort of imply

855
00:58:14,453 --> 00:58:18,213
Speaker 2: that the only or the main issue is illegal immigration.

856
00:58:18,893 --> 00:58:22,813
Speaker 2: I think illegal immigration is a real issue, but legal

857
00:58:22,853 --> 00:58:28,013
Speaker 2: immigration is also an issue. And of course legal immigration

858
00:58:28,413 --> 00:58:34,133
Speaker 2: runs at ten fifteen times sometimes the rate of illegal immigration.

859
00:58:34,933 --> 00:58:37,573
Speaker 2: And I think what people want and what we tried

860
00:58:37,613 --> 00:58:39,893
Speaker 2: to do when we were in office and we succeeded

861
00:58:40,253 --> 00:58:44,253
Speaker 2: to an extent and we failed to an extent, was

862
00:58:44,293 --> 00:58:49,333
Speaker 2: to put in place an immigration system which stops illegal

863
00:58:49,453 --> 00:58:57,573
Speaker 2: immigration and limits or curbs legal immigration. Now, of course

864
00:58:57,813 --> 00:58:59,853
Speaker 2: it's not just the numbers, as the second part of

865
00:58:59,893 --> 00:59:05,653
Speaker 2: your question showed up, it's also about integration. When people

866
00:59:05,693 --> 00:59:07,933
Speaker 2: have come into the UK, we need to make sure

867
00:59:07,973 --> 00:59:12,253
Speaker 2: that they're integrate into our society. It goes back to

868
00:59:12,253 --> 00:59:14,733
Speaker 2: one of the first things I talked about in this

869
00:59:15,293 --> 00:59:18,773
Speaker 2: conversation about growing up in Liverpool and the way that

870
00:59:18,813 --> 00:59:22,013
Speaker 2: the Jewish community in the non Jewish community were mixing

871
00:59:23,813 --> 00:59:26,093
Speaker 2: I think we need to make sure in our society

872
00:59:26,173 --> 00:59:31,733
Speaker 2: that we don't create areas where there is a monoculture

873
00:59:32,453 --> 00:59:38,373
Speaker 2: of people who whose background is not the UK, because

874
00:59:38,373 --> 00:59:42,693
Speaker 2: it's it's particularly important for the immigrant communities themselves to

875
00:59:42,853 --> 00:59:47,533
Speaker 2: integrate into the UK, as my family did and my

876
00:59:47,693 --> 00:59:53,293
Speaker 2: community has done. I mean, you talk about the grooming

877
00:59:53,333 --> 00:59:58,733
Speaker 2: gangs and that that certainly had an ethnic element to it.

878
00:59:59,373 --> 01:00:01,973
Speaker 2: I tend to call them rape gangs because that's what

879
01:00:02,093 --> 01:00:05,493
Speaker 2: it was. Grooming gangs actually is a bit of a euphemism.

880
01:00:05,533 --> 01:00:10,493
Speaker 2: They're really rape gangs. And there is belatedly an inquiry

881
01:00:10,573 --> 01:00:12,693
Speaker 2: being set up. I don't think it's actually been fully

882
01:00:12,733 --> 01:00:17,013
Speaker 2: set up yet into the issue. Of course, over and

883
01:00:17,053 --> 01:00:22,653
Speaker 2: above the appalling horrors which these girls suffered. One of

884
01:00:22,693 --> 01:00:29,373
Speaker 2: the terrible features about these rape gaps was that when

885
01:00:29,413 --> 01:00:34,813
Speaker 2: people talked about it, when people alerted the authorities to it,

886
01:00:35,933 --> 01:00:38,773
Speaker 2: many times they were shut down for fear of being

887
01:00:39,293 --> 01:00:44,053
Speaker 2: called racist. And I think it goes back to what

888
01:00:44,093 --> 01:00:49,453
Speaker 2: I was saying earlier. We need to have the confidence

889
01:00:50,613 --> 01:00:57,253
Speaker 2: to be muscular about defending our values and defending girls

890
01:00:57,293 --> 01:01:01,653
Speaker 2: from being raped ought not to be controversial, and nothing

891
01:01:01,693 --> 01:01:04,093
Speaker 2: ought to stand in the way of doing that and

892
01:01:04,133 --> 01:01:09,093
Speaker 2: certainly not false fears of being called racist. It's not

893
01:01:09,253 --> 01:01:13,933
Speaker 2: racist to defend and protect girls from being raped. And

894
01:01:14,093 --> 01:01:18,933
Speaker 2: I really hope that the inquiry, which has been too

895
01:01:19,013 --> 01:01:21,893
Speaker 2: long in the setting up, will get to the roots

896
01:01:21,933 --> 01:01:26,533
Speaker 2: and really show what happened and why for so long

897
01:01:27,493 --> 01:01:29,613
Speaker 2: there was silence where there should have been action.

898
01:01:30,733 --> 01:01:36,573
Speaker 3: Just finally, which country do you think is politically challenged

899
01:01:36,693 --> 01:01:40,653
Speaker 3: more at the moment? Britain or America?

900
01:01:41,773 --> 01:01:44,013
Speaker 2: Well? I think I in some ways, I would say

901
01:01:44,053 --> 01:01:49,533
Speaker 2: Britain because Britain does not have a conservative government, and

902
01:01:49,733 --> 01:01:52,933
Speaker 2: whenever Britain does not have a conservative government, in my mind,

903
01:01:52,973 --> 01:01:59,293
Speaker 2: it is necessarily politically challenged, so I would say Britain.

904
01:01:59,933 --> 01:02:06,173
Speaker 2: I mean, the American situation is extremely interesting. I don't

905
01:02:07,213 --> 01:02:11,453
Speaker 2: always agree with ever think that any American politician says,

906
01:02:12,093 --> 01:02:14,813
Speaker 2: but there can be no doubt that whether you agree

907
01:02:14,853 --> 01:02:17,693
Speaker 2: with him or you don't agree with him, President Trump

908
01:02:17,813 --> 01:02:20,733
Speaker 2: has done two things. First of all, he's changed the

909
01:02:20,973 --> 01:02:26,253
Speaker 2: terms of the debate within the United States, and secondly,

910
01:02:26,333 --> 01:02:29,493
Speaker 2: he does have this habit of actually doing what he

911
01:02:29,613 --> 01:02:32,813
Speaker 2: said he would do, and that's something which I think

912
01:02:32,893 --> 01:02:35,693
Speaker 2: many politicians could learn from.

913
01:02:35,693 --> 01:02:40,453
Speaker 3: Indeed, and on that rewarding note, let me say thank

914
01:02:40,493 --> 01:02:43,773
Speaker 3: you very much being a pleasure, and I've enjoyed it

915
01:02:44,493 --> 01:02:46,053
Speaker 3: and you're free.

916
01:02:46,933 --> 01:02:49,653
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much as well, and I look

917
01:02:49,693 --> 01:02:53,253
Speaker 2: forward to being back in New Zealand. I've done the Milford,

918
01:02:53,333 --> 01:02:58,413
Speaker 2: I've done the Abel Tasman and I'm looking forward to

919
01:02:58,453 --> 01:03:00,453
Speaker 2: the next big walk and.

920
01:03:00,493 --> 01:03:14,813
Speaker 3: I have it soon into the mail room for number

921
01:03:14,893 --> 01:03:18,733
Speaker 3: three hundred and eleven, the missus producer, how are you good?

922
01:03:18,773 --> 01:03:19,093
Speaker 4: Thank you?

923
01:03:19,213 --> 01:03:21,493
Speaker 3: Lateron you get tired of my asking.

924
01:03:21,173 --> 01:03:23,493
Speaker 4: That no I love it means you're caring?

925
01:03:25,173 --> 01:03:26,573
Speaker 2: Do you really think so?

926
01:03:27,653 --> 01:03:29,053
Speaker 4: I don't know if it sounds good?

927
01:03:29,213 --> 01:03:34,413
Speaker 3: Okay, So Stephen rose quip that a lot of people

928
01:03:34,533 --> 01:03:38,053
Speaker 3: on the left have suicidal empathy really struck a nerve

929
01:03:38,093 --> 01:03:40,893
Speaker 3: with me. The Adern years have conditioned New Zealand to

930
01:03:40,973 --> 01:03:46,493
Speaker 3: adopt a nationwide persona of empathetic poverty and pessimism. It's

931
01:03:46,533 --> 01:03:49,973
Speaker 3: already been over two years since her fee inditionally divisive

932
01:03:50,093 --> 01:03:53,573
Speaker 3: government last ran our country down to the ground, and

933
01:03:53,653 --> 01:03:57,413
Speaker 3: yet we continue to lose New Zealanders to Australia. Carl

934
01:03:57,413 --> 01:03:59,933
Speaker 3: Defrain and his wife recently spent several weeks in three

935
01:04:00,013 --> 01:04:04,613
Speaker 3: major Australian cities and found themselves quote struck by the

936
01:04:04,893 --> 01:04:10,773
Speaker 3: general impression of prosperity and optimism. It stood in stark

937
01:04:10,813 --> 01:04:15,533
Speaker 3: contrasts with out polarized, anxious, demoralized and bitchy home country.

938
01:04:15,653 --> 01:04:17,813
Speaker 3: That was a quote as well. Where did it all

939
01:04:17,853 --> 01:04:21,933
Speaker 3: go wrong? In his recent Spectator article entitled the Keyweed Diaspora,

940
01:04:22,373 --> 01:04:25,093
Speaker 3: he traced it back to around the second term of

941
01:04:25,173 --> 01:04:29,613
Speaker 3: the Jasindar aderrnled government from twenty twenty to twenty twenty three.

942
01:04:29,653 --> 01:04:34,333
Speaker 3: He summed it up perfectly again, quote those three years

943
01:04:34,413 --> 01:04:37,573
Speaker 3: now resemble a bad dream in which a toxic amalgam

944
01:04:37,613 --> 01:04:43,533
Speaker 3: of aggressive mari ethno nationalism, virulent transgender activism, and a

945
01:04:43,613 --> 01:04:46,653
Speaker 3: tax on free speech, all endorsed by Labor and its

946
01:04:46,693 --> 01:04:52,213
Speaker 3: Green Party enablers, placed unprecedented strain on the broad consensus

947
01:04:52,693 --> 01:04:56,653
Speaker 3: that has traditionally underpinned New Zealand public policy. It didn't

948
01:04:56,693 --> 01:05:00,973
Speaker 3: help that the news media, previously a broad church, agnostic

949
01:05:01,013 --> 01:05:03,573
Speaker 3: in its news coverage and open to a wide range

950
01:05:03,613 --> 01:05:08,733
Speaker 3: of opinion, jettisoned its commitment to editorial balance along with

951
01:05:08,773 --> 01:05:14,933
Speaker 3: its credibility, by functioning as uncritical cheerleaders for the radical

952
01:05:15,253 --> 01:05:17,453
Speaker 3: And then that word is off the bottom of the

953
01:05:17,613 --> 01:05:22,173
Speaker 3: oh the radical left in short, Adirn screwed more than

954
01:05:22,213 --> 01:05:26,573
Speaker 3: one generation of New Zealanders. Yet now polls indicate that

955
01:05:26,693 --> 01:05:29,373
Speaker 3: we might happily return Labor and the Greens back into

956
01:05:29,413 --> 01:05:32,253
Speaker 3: power and even accept a capital gains tax to boot.

957
01:05:32,893 --> 01:05:36,373
Speaker 3: Perhaps the best election campaign national act then New Zealand

958
01:05:36,413 --> 01:05:39,533
Speaker 3: first could run is to ship a free copy of

959
01:05:39,613 --> 01:05:43,533
Speaker 3: David Cohen's to Cinder the Untold Stories to every single

960
01:05:43,613 --> 01:05:47,693
Speaker 3: living New Zealander before the election next year. Lest we

961
01:05:47,853 --> 01:05:53,213
Speaker 3: forget pretty, that was pretty pretty accurate, actually.

962
01:05:53,533 --> 01:05:56,933
Speaker 4: Layton Eileen says, Laton, you are a brave man tackling

963
01:05:56,933 --> 01:05:59,893
Speaker 4: the subject of Charlie Kirk. But you've always been courageous

964
01:05:59,973 --> 01:06:04,893
Speaker 4: and diligent in your vocation New Zealand's best and brightest broadcaster.

965
01:06:05,733 --> 01:06:08,493
Speaker 4: In my view, Erica Kirk needs our prayers because she

966
01:06:08,533 --> 01:06:11,813
Speaker 4: is the victim of so much abuse and unfair conjecture.

967
01:06:12,493 --> 01:06:15,133
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk used to describe his wife as a Proverbs

968
01:06:15,173 --> 01:06:18,373
Speaker 4: thirty one woman because of her dedication to faith, family,

969
01:06:18,493 --> 01:06:21,933
Speaker 4: and civil rights. As a child, Erica Kirk used to

970
01:06:21,933 --> 01:06:25,333
Speaker 4: help her mother set up soup kitchens for the needy. Yes,

971
01:06:25,373 --> 01:06:27,693
Speaker 4: she is naturally beautiful, and this might be the reason

972
01:06:27,693 --> 01:06:30,253
Speaker 4: why the Green eyed monstans are so jealous of her.

973
01:06:31,133 --> 01:06:34,253
Speaker 4: Erica Kirk's worst detractors seemed to be women, and this

974
01:06:34,373 --> 01:06:37,213
Speaker 4: includes prominent women who seemed to delight in dragging her

975
01:06:37,293 --> 01:06:41,293
Speaker 4: name through the mud. Every person grieves differently and in

976
01:06:41,373 --> 01:06:45,173
Speaker 4: their own way. The individuals who are maligning her and

977
01:06:45,253 --> 01:06:48,813
Speaker 4: her family are making money from their gossip mongering and defamation.

978
01:06:49,853 --> 01:06:52,733
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk had a plethora of friends from all different

979
01:06:52,773 --> 01:06:56,133
Speaker 4: faiths and ethnic groups, and he always claimed that God

980
01:06:56,213 --> 01:06:59,613
Speaker 4: drew no distinction that were all his children as a

981
01:06:59,653 --> 01:07:02,773
Speaker 4: mart of her free speech. May Charlie Kirk rest in peace,

982
01:07:03,013 --> 01:07:05,973
Speaker 4: and God bless his long suffering wife as well.

983
01:07:06,293 --> 01:07:10,733
Speaker 3: Another good letter, Brian writes just a note to say

984
01:07:10,733 --> 01:07:13,573
Speaker 3: how much I enjoyed Tony Coleman's interview on your podcast

985
01:07:13,613 --> 01:07:17,533
Speaker 3: three o nine. Having been interested in all matters gold

986
01:07:17,653 --> 01:07:21,973
Speaker 3: since university days in South Africa for twenty five years

987
01:07:22,173 --> 01:07:24,693
Speaker 3: and in New Zealand for the last twenty six years,

988
01:07:25,453 --> 01:07:28,173
Speaker 3: that wide ranging interview on gold was the best I

989
01:07:28,173 --> 01:07:31,413
Speaker 3: have ever listened to. Tony has a depth and breadth of

990
01:07:31,573 --> 01:07:34,813
Speaker 3: knowledge and experience with gold that I have never come

991
01:07:34,853 --> 01:07:39,253
Speaker 3: across before, and I've been to mining and investment conferences

992
01:07:39,293 --> 01:07:43,453
Speaker 3: in Africa, USA, New Zealand and even Argentina. I have

993
01:07:43,533 --> 01:07:46,333
Speaker 3: also been fortunate to have met the famous Doug Casey

994
01:07:46,413 --> 01:07:49,413
Speaker 3: on several occasions in the USA, New Zealand and Argentina

995
01:07:49,733 --> 01:07:54,093
Speaker 3: with one on one discussions regarding mining, investment and gold.

996
01:07:54,693 --> 01:07:58,453
Speaker 3: But Tony Coleman has that unique knowledge and experience spanning

997
01:07:58,533 --> 01:08:04,213
Speaker 3: all aspects including gold's historic international monetary role and economics

998
01:08:04,253 --> 01:08:09,253
Speaker 3: and refinery aspects, mining of gold, and current concerns about

999
01:08:09,253 --> 01:08:13,133
Speaker 3: who actually has any gold reserves, etc. It was such

1000
01:08:13,133 --> 01:08:15,693
Speaker 3: an interesting discussion and I have forwarded it to all

1001
01:08:15,773 --> 01:08:19,533
Speaker 3: my friends who share interest in this topic. As an aside,

1002
01:08:19,573 --> 01:08:24,533
Speaker 3: Doug Casey and Matthew Smith, in their recent Doug Casey's

1003
01:08:24,653 --> 01:08:29,613
Speaker 3: take entitled Gold Fever The Future of Precious Metals about

1004
01:08:29,613 --> 01:08:32,373
Speaker 3: a month ago, mentioned if gold was to be re

1005
01:08:32,453 --> 01:08:35,573
Speaker 3: monetized again, the value would have to be in the

1006
01:08:35,693 --> 01:08:39,053
Speaker 3: range of you ready for this twenty thousand US to

1007
01:08:39,733 --> 01:08:44,893
Speaker 3: fifty thousand US dollars per ounce. Please let Tony Coleman

1008
01:08:44,973 --> 01:08:46,933
Speaker 3: know how much I loved his interview with you. On

1009
01:08:46,973 --> 01:08:49,133
Speaker 3: top of his clear knowledge, he is blessed with a

1010
01:08:49,173 --> 01:08:52,173
Speaker 3: communication style that is so rare these days, it would

1011
01:08:52,213 --> 01:08:54,373
Speaker 3: be great to have him on your show again as

1012
01:08:54,493 --> 01:08:56,973
Speaker 3: world economic difficulties continue.

1013
01:08:57,613 --> 01:09:01,453
Speaker 4: So Brian Layden Scott says, I'm a longtime listener and

1014
01:09:01,573 --> 01:09:04,933
Speaker 4: have appreciated your thoughtful commentary over the years, especially when

1015
01:09:04,933 --> 01:09:08,333
Speaker 4: you turn your attention to education. From time to time

1016
01:09:08,493 --> 01:09:11,333
Speaker 4: you highlight the direction New Zealand schooling has taken. So

1017
01:09:11,413 --> 01:09:13,733
Speaker 4: I thought you might be interested in an article I've

1018
01:09:13,813 --> 01:09:17,133
Speaker 4: just written. It's a response to the recent New Zealand

1019
01:09:17,213 --> 01:09:22,453
Speaker 4: Principles Federation complaints about the government's decision to remove Treaty

1020
01:09:22,453 --> 01:09:26,973
Speaker 4: of Waitangi responsibilities from school boards. I'm the principle of

1021
01:09:27,053 --> 01:09:32,013
Speaker 4: manikarw Christian School in Manueba, South Auckland, a small, independent

1022
01:09:32,173 --> 01:09:35,613
Speaker 4: year one to thirteen school that aims to provide an affordable,

1023
01:09:35,693 --> 01:09:40,413
Speaker 4: top quality Christian academic education. We added a high school

1024
01:09:40,453 --> 01:09:44,893
Speaker 4: to our flourishing primary in twenty fifteen and by twenty

1025
01:09:45,093 --> 01:09:48,813
Speaker 4: nineteen we had a full year nine to thirteen secondary department.

1026
01:09:49,813 --> 01:09:52,973
Speaker 4: Since then, in three of those years, one hundred percent

1027
01:09:53,013 --> 01:09:57,933
Speaker 4: of our graduating students have achieved university entrants, reflecting our

1028
01:09:57,973 --> 01:10:03,213
Speaker 4: commitment to academic excellence and character formation rather than ideology.

1029
01:10:04,293 --> 01:10:06,813
Speaker 4: It's hard to believe I know, but we achieve these

1030
01:10:06,893 --> 01:10:12,133
Speaker 4: results by actually folk focusing on educating children rather than

1031
01:10:12,213 --> 01:10:17,053
Speaker 4: woke social programming. And Scott has sent you his article

1032
01:10:17,133 --> 01:10:19,813
Speaker 4: latent and I presume that you might be able to

1033
01:10:19,813 --> 01:10:22,693
Speaker 4: find it if you're interested by going to the website

1034
01:10:22,773 --> 01:10:29,253
Speaker 4: dubdubdub dot Manekowchristian dot school dot nz. That's for Scott.

1035
01:10:29,293 --> 01:10:32,573
Speaker 3: Scott, very good, thank you, and I congratulate you on

1036
01:10:32,653 --> 01:10:38,013
Speaker 3: your run success with establishing a school primary and senior

1037
01:10:38,333 --> 01:10:41,573
Speaker 3: fabulous and I guess along as similar note, Rick writes,

1038
01:10:41,773 --> 01:10:44,053
Speaker 3: I have listened to all your podcasts since day one,

1039
01:10:44,253 --> 01:10:46,133
Speaker 3: and I thank you for that, but I have some

1040
01:10:46,253 --> 01:10:49,853
Speaker 3: issues with your latest guest. First, the person was a

1041
01:10:49,893 --> 01:10:54,173
Speaker 3: Catholic and he had a Catholic worldview on AI and

1042
01:10:54,253 --> 01:10:57,013
Speaker 3: other things. Well, at this point I'd say, well, so on.

1043
01:10:57,773 --> 01:11:02,293
Speaker 3: He was very articulate, but his foundation was wrong. AI

1044
01:11:02,653 --> 01:11:06,973
Speaker 3: is super dangerous, and the Bible clearly talks about the

1045
01:11:07,053 --> 01:11:13,293
Speaker 3: one world religion Catholic and one world economic system AI

1046
01:11:14,173 --> 01:11:18,173
Speaker 3: and a one world government. The world is primed. They

1047
01:11:18,213 --> 01:11:21,333
Speaker 3: have a leader to solve all our problems. The Bible

1048
01:11:21,373 --> 01:11:25,893
Speaker 3: calls him the Antichrist, and he uses AI. Revelation thirteen

1049
01:11:26,613 --> 01:11:30,253
Speaker 3: to cause this image of the beast to speak, etc.

1050
01:11:30,973 --> 01:11:34,453
Speaker 3: And cause everyone to worship him or be killed. Society

1051
01:11:34,493 --> 01:11:38,053
Speaker 3: has rejected God and believed the lie a world government

1052
01:11:38,373 --> 01:11:41,453
Speaker 3: the solution to climate change, which does not exist anyway,

1053
01:11:41,853 --> 01:11:44,653
Speaker 3: as you know. Regards Rick, Well, I've got to say

1054
01:11:44,693 --> 01:11:49,053
Speaker 3: there's a few long shots in there for most people anyway.

1055
01:11:49,773 --> 01:11:54,813
Speaker 3: But what he's saying is about revelation is not untrue.

1056
01:11:55,133 --> 01:11:59,413
Speaker 3: But I'll adopt the words of that previous email that

1057
01:11:59,413 --> 01:12:02,133
Speaker 3: that you read out and say, Rick, you're very brave

1058
01:12:02,213 --> 01:12:05,213
Speaker 3: to be taking well are you're doing it anonymously? Really,

1059
01:12:05,413 --> 01:12:06,533
Speaker 3: because there's a lot of ricks about.

1060
01:12:06,733 --> 01:12:09,733
Speaker 4: But anyway, thank you, says it was great to listen

1061
01:12:09,773 --> 01:12:11,893
Speaker 4: to Tony last week. I think there would be a couple

1062
01:12:11,933 --> 01:12:15,013
Speaker 4: of teachers of old who'd be scratching their heads after

1063
01:12:15,053 --> 01:12:18,693
Speaker 4: that chat, some of whom, if asked to put lists together,

1064
01:12:18,733 --> 01:12:21,693
Speaker 4: would have put Tony in the not likely to achieve list.

1065
01:12:22,213 --> 01:12:24,893
Speaker 4: He and I went to Scouts and in later years

1066
01:12:24,933 --> 01:12:28,613
Speaker 4: school too. I knew him well back then, the fearless prankster,

1067
01:12:29,333 --> 01:12:32,093
Speaker 4: not the slightest inkling of the pology has today, but

1068
01:12:32,173 --> 01:12:35,413
Speaker 4: the smart, astute Tony was always bubbling under the surface.

1069
01:12:35,813 --> 01:12:38,053
Speaker 4: Then I left New Zealand and fell out of touch.

1070
01:12:38,653 --> 01:12:41,533
Speaker 4: I was acquainted with his father and knew his brothers

1071
01:12:41,613 --> 01:12:45,013
Speaker 4: Chris and Richard. Had never met Peter until my return

1072
01:12:45,093 --> 01:12:48,213
Speaker 4: to New Zealand in nineteen ninety five. I stopped him

1073
01:12:48,213 --> 01:12:50,893
Speaker 4: for coffee in a chat with Tony at their old premises.

1074
01:12:51,333 --> 01:12:53,933
Speaker 4: I thought, then this is the Tony who was hiding

1075
01:12:53,933 --> 01:12:56,653
Speaker 4: away in our teens time. I stopped by to see

1076
01:12:56,693 --> 01:12:59,853
Speaker 4: him again at the new shop, I think. And then

1077
01:12:59,933 --> 01:13:01,853
Speaker 4: Paul goes on to say thank you both for hosting

1078
01:13:01,893 --> 01:13:04,293
Speaker 4: a wonderful show, sharing some of your life with us,

1079
01:13:04,373 --> 01:13:07,053
Speaker 4: and of course having some interesting people to chat to

1080
01:13:07,253 --> 01:13:09,813
Speaker 4: on an array of hundred ideas.

1081
01:13:09,813 --> 01:13:13,253
Speaker 3: Got any interesting life from things you'd like to mention today?

1082
01:13:15,053 --> 01:13:17,693
Speaker 4: After having a bad fall last week, I'm quite glad

1083
01:13:17,693 --> 01:13:21,373
Speaker 4: to be alive. So that's my that's.

1084
01:13:21,133 --> 01:13:25,773
Speaker 3: My little you really want to share that, I don't mind.

1085
01:13:26,173 --> 01:13:26,813
Speaker 2: You don't mind.

1086
01:13:26,933 --> 01:13:31,453
Speaker 3: She did. She had a bad four and came out

1087
01:13:31,453 --> 01:13:35,253
Speaker 3: of it, according to the doctor, A very lucky woman.

1088
01:13:36,253 --> 01:13:38,093
Speaker 4: I don't want to see hospital again for a while.

1089
01:13:38,133 --> 01:13:41,293
Speaker 3: Thank you, you've been there a bit. Not for yourself though,

1090
01:13:41,813 --> 01:13:47,133
Speaker 3: now from Vincent. According to Must Read Stories at the weekend,

1091
01:13:47,173 --> 01:13:49,733
Speaker 3: there is a massive protest in Brazil to coincide with

1092
01:13:49,813 --> 01:13:54,853
Speaker 3: COP thirty. This supposed protest was to demand action on

1093
01:13:54,893 --> 01:13:58,813
Speaker 3: the climate crisis and to save the Amazon while others

1094
01:13:59,013 --> 01:14:03,413
Speaker 3: quote held a mock funeral procession for fossil fuels, dressed

1095
01:14:03,453 --> 01:14:06,293
Speaker 3: in black and pretending to be grieving widows as they

1096
01:14:06,333 --> 01:14:09,853
Speaker 3: carried three coffins marked with the words oil and gas.

1097
01:14:10,373 --> 01:14:13,293
Speaker 3: I can't help it be suspicious that the well choreographed

1098
01:14:13,373 --> 01:14:17,013
Speaker 3: disruption to the locals lives was likely planned by the

1099
01:14:17,093 --> 01:14:21,413
Speaker 3: climate change elites to highlight their annual gathering which has

1100
01:14:21,453 --> 01:14:24,893
Speaker 3: failed to solve the climate crisis thirty years on from

1101
01:14:24,893 --> 01:14:30,733
Speaker 3: its inception. It's extraordinary in it. How do people continue

1102
01:14:30,773 --> 01:14:34,373
Speaker 3: to be such suckers to seek that anything is ever

1103
01:14:34,413 --> 01:14:37,733
Speaker 3: going to come out of a cop after thirty years?

1104
01:14:38,013 --> 01:14:38,773
Speaker 3: What have they achieved?

1105
01:14:39,013 --> 01:14:40,653
Speaker 2: Nothing? Nothing?

1106
01:14:41,853 --> 01:14:44,853
Speaker 3: Of course, for good measure, a giant Palestidian flag and

1107
01:14:44,893 --> 01:14:48,413
Speaker 3: Free Palestine batterers appeared throughout the crowds. Or maybe they

1108
01:14:48,453 --> 01:14:52,853
Speaker 3: could invite the Palestidians across to the amazon A. The

1109
01:14:53,493 --> 01:14:56,333
Speaker 3: chance to take part in a march can't be missed. Obviously,

1110
01:14:56,653 --> 01:14:59,773
Speaker 3: most of the globe's population will be sucked in by

1111
01:14:59,813 --> 01:15:05,213
Speaker 3: this display. Perhaps the BBC covered it with all the facts.

1112
01:15:06,573 --> 01:15:09,293
Speaker 3: Thanks as always for another week of en excellent podcasting.

1113
01:15:09,533 --> 01:15:15,693
Speaker 3: Always appreciated. Regards Vincent and that will suffice. There was

1114
01:15:15,733 --> 01:15:19,253
Speaker 3: a couple more at least, but we shall save them

1115
01:15:19,253 --> 01:15:24,173
Speaker 3: for next week, missus producer, go and travel safely.

1116
01:15:24,413 --> 01:15:28,213
Speaker 4: Thank you later, step by step very slowly.

1117
01:15:29,053 --> 01:15:53,333
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot, See you next week. Now to take

1118
01:15:53,373 --> 01:15:55,493
Speaker 3: us out for one past three eleven, I wanted to

1119
01:15:56,093 --> 01:15:59,853
Speaker 3: introduce something else on the education field, and this follows

1120
01:15:59,893 --> 01:16:03,933
Speaker 3: on the letter from Scott Kennedy from the Manecow Christian School.

1121
01:16:04,573 --> 01:16:07,493
Speaker 3: And I'm not suggesting there's any connection to it at all.

1122
01:16:07,533 --> 01:16:10,333
Speaker 3: It's just that I read this this morning. It was

1123
01:16:10,373 --> 01:16:16,653
Speaker 3: published today and I thought it's worthy of inserting. You've

1124
01:16:17,013 --> 01:16:20,573
Speaker 3: possibly heard of Matthias Desmont, if not. He's the author

1125
01:16:20,613 --> 01:16:24,653
Speaker 3: of a book, The Psychology of Totalitarianism, and it has

1126
01:16:24,933 --> 01:16:28,453
Speaker 3: endorsements on the back from Robert Malone, from Peter McCullough,

1127
01:16:30,693 --> 01:16:34,173
Speaker 3: and then there is one at the bottom from Eric Clapton,

1128
01:16:35,013 --> 01:16:38,733
Speaker 3: and that's the only one I'm going to actually quote.

1129
01:16:39,213 --> 01:16:44,013
Speaker 3: Mattius Desmond's theory of mass formation hypnosis is great. Once

1130
01:16:44,333 --> 01:16:47,573
Speaker 3: I kind of started to look for it, I saw

1131
01:16:47,613 --> 01:16:50,093
Speaker 3: it everywhere. It's a bit like cars. You know, there's

1132
01:16:50,133 --> 01:16:51,733
Speaker 3: no red cars on the roads. I'll have a red

1133
01:16:51,773 --> 01:16:55,773
Speaker 3: car next thing. You know, the next week's red cars everywhere.

1134
01:16:56,013 --> 01:17:01,693
Speaker 3: Same principle anyway. From his article today, published the nineteenth

1135
01:17:01,693 --> 01:17:06,133
Speaker 3: of November, why schools make Us Dumber The celestial openness

1136
01:17:06,253 --> 01:17:09,213
Speaker 3: of the child's mind. Now it goes five K. I'm

1137
01:17:09,213 --> 01:17:12,573
Speaker 3: just going to read you a couple of quotes. But

1138
01:17:12,653 --> 01:17:16,053
Speaker 3: he's spending some time in the Himalayas, and I believe

1139
01:17:16,093 --> 01:17:18,093
Speaker 3: this is where he wrote this from, because he's talking

1140
01:17:18,093 --> 01:17:22,013
Speaker 3: about some young students who came up to him started

1141
01:17:22,053 --> 01:17:27,653
Speaker 3: asking him questions. Our education system has one merit. It

1142
01:17:27,773 --> 01:17:31,653
Speaker 3: indeed transfers a substantial amount of rational knowledge from generation

1143
01:17:31,813 --> 01:17:35,693
Speaker 3: to generation. But in general even the transmission of rational

1144
01:17:35,733 --> 01:17:39,573
Speaker 3: knowledge is increasingly under threat. Whoever focuses too much on

1145
01:17:39,653 --> 01:17:43,693
Speaker 3: a secondary matter in life eventually loses even that secondary matter.

1146
01:17:44,533 --> 01:17:49,413
Speaker 3: Education is producing more and more illiteracy. Neither writing nor

1147
01:17:49,493 --> 01:17:53,533
Speaker 3: reading reaches a reasonable level anymore, even among the highly educated.

1148
01:17:54,253 --> 01:17:58,533
Speaker 3: With artificial intelligence, that problem will in all likelihood become

1149
01:17:58,733 --> 01:18:03,573
Speaker 3: even more severe. There are already experts who apparently consider

1150
01:18:03,813 --> 01:18:08,693
Speaker 3: the greatest goal of education to be teaching students how

1151
01:18:08,733 --> 01:18:12,133
Speaker 3: to work with AI. Why should a human do what

1152
01:18:12,173 --> 01:18:16,413
Speaker 3: a machine can do? After all? Little further on, the

1153
01:18:16,453 --> 01:18:20,493
Speaker 3: great scholars of mass psychology and propaganda have repeatedly observed

1154
01:18:20,853 --> 01:18:24,853
Speaker 3: the higher the education level, the more easily people allow

1155
01:18:24,933 --> 01:18:28,853
Speaker 3: themselves to be deceived, the more susceptible they are to propaganda.

1156
01:18:29,653 --> 01:18:33,933
Speaker 3: Jacques Illull, perhaps the sharpest thinker in the field of propaganda,

1157
01:18:34,453 --> 01:18:39,533
Speaker 3: believe that formal schooling is ultimately a form of unconscious

1158
01:18:39,573 --> 01:18:43,773
Speaker 3: indoctrination that makes children vulnerable to the propaganda that they

1159
01:18:43,813 --> 01:18:48,333
Speaker 3: will encounter later in life. Two more paragraphs go by,

1160
01:18:48,453 --> 01:18:52,013
Speaker 3: and then we come to does there exist an education

1161
01:18:52,173 --> 01:18:56,933
Speaker 3: that is not in doctrination? Can one human teach another

1162
01:18:57,213 --> 01:19:01,733
Speaker 3: in Brackett's a child without indoctrinating him? Any education that

1163
01:19:01,773 --> 01:19:07,333
Speaker 3: sets rational knowledge as its ultimate goal is indoctrination and

1164
01:19:07,373 --> 01:19:10,653
Speaker 3: does the opposite of what it should do. Knowledge always

1165
01:19:10,693 --> 01:19:14,493
Speaker 3: belongs to a doctrine, to a system, But a good

1166
01:19:14,613 --> 01:19:18,493
Speaker 3: system is ultimately always aimed at abolishing itself and making

1167
01:19:18,493 --> 01:19:22,853
Speaker 3: itself unnecessary, like scaffolding that is dismantled once the building

1168
01:19:22,893 --> 01:19:28,453
Speaker 3: is complete. With the idealization of reason in Enlightenment culture,

1169
01:19:29,213 --> 01:19:32,933
Speaker 3: that was lost and the school system spread like a

1170
01:19:33,013 --> 01:19:36,453
Speaker 3: tumor and a tyranny. A child has essentially become a

1171
01:19:36,493 --> 01:19:40,853
Speaker 3: prisoner of the school bench. To place a being bursting

1172
01:19:40,933 --> 01:19:43,973
Speaker 3: with the energy of spring on a school bench for

1173
01:19:44,053 --> 01:19:46,533
Speaker 3: eight hours a day is something that we will one

1174
01:19:46,613 --> 01:19:52,453
Speaker 3: day look back on as a kind of mistreatment. Well

1175
01:19:52,653 --> 01:19:57,413
Speaker 3: there just outtakes from the substack piece that Madius Desmond

1176
01:19:57,413 --> 01:20:02,533
Speaker 3: has produced Why Schools make a stummer The celestial openness

1177
01:20:02,693 --> 01:20:06,973
Speaker 3: of the Child's mind, with twenty twenty five in numbers.

1178
01:20:07,213 --> 01:20:12,773
Speaker 3: Just before you want that again, twenty twenty five Why

1179
01:20:12,853 --> 01:20:16,813
Speaker 3: schools make us Dumber? The celestial openness of the child's mind.

1180
01:20:17,573 --> 01:20:20,133
Speaker 3: And that'll take us away for podcasts number three hundred

1181
01:20:20,173 --> 01:20:24,373
Speaker 3: and eleven. We shall return with three twelve, of course

1182
01:20:24,453 --> 01:20:28,053
Speaker 3: shortly in the interim. As always, if you'd like to

1183
01:20:28,093 --> 01:20:31,373
Speaker 3: write to us latent Newstalks at me dot co dot

1184
01:20:31,413 --> 01:20:34,653
Speaker 3: nz or Carolyn at Newstalks at me dot co dot nz.

1185
01:20:35,373 --> 01:20:38,973
Speaker 3: And again, as always, thank you for listening, and we

1186
01:20:39,013 --> 01:20:39,733
Speaker 3: shall talk said.

1187
01:20:48,253 --> 01:20:52,213
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from Newstalk st B. Listen live

1188
01:20:52,373 --> 01:20:55,093
Speaker 1: on air or online and keep our shows with you

1189
01:20:55,173 --> 01:20:58,173
Speaker 1: wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio