WEBVTT - Dougal Sutherland: Kids need awards as reinforcement 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.441 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks. 0:00:09.641 --> 0:00:17.121 By next day you get. 0:00:21.041 --> 0:00:49.681 Stanny Buddies Christmas, I give you the next Day Sandy Beach. 0:00:46.201 --> 0:00:48.681 And welcome back to the Weekend Collective. Ah, yes, a 0:00:48.721 --> 0:00:51.161 little bit of wham or just George Michael, I think 0:00:51.161 --> 0:00:55.241 it's wham Last Christmas? Last Christmas? Should I say I 0:00:55.281 --> 0:00:56.841 forgot it was a Christmas song? But of course it's 0:00:56.841 --> 0:01:01.521 got Christmas in the title. Anyway, I forgot. I didn't 0:01:01.521 --> 0:01:04.241 forget it was a Christmas song. I forgot of thinking 0:01:04.241 --> 0:01:05.841 of it when it as a song. When I was 0:01:05.881 --> 0:01:07.801 doing talk bag, I'm thinking what are the good Christmas songs? 0:01:07.801 --> 0:01:10.521 And somebody suggested Last Christmas. I was like, oh yeah, 0:01:10.521 --> 0:01:12.681 a little bit of wham. There we go. Anyway, Welcome 0:01:12.721 --> 0:01:16.161 to the Parents Squad. My guest is he's a psychologist 0:01:16.161 --> 0:01:19.081 at Umbrella Academy and his name is Dougal Sutherland and Google, 0:01:19.201 --> 0:01:19.921 good afternoon. 0:01:19.921 --> 0:01:23.041 How are you you're a term Umbrella well being, Umbrella 0:01:23.121 --> 0:01:28.321 Academy evil? Sorry, Umbrella Academy, I think is like an 0:01:28.401 --> 0:01:31.121 evil corporation in some video game. I believe. 0:01:31.601 --> 0:01:33.601 Oh well, okay, that's not us. 0:01:33.641 --> 0:01:36.281 I can tell you right now there's nothing evil there. 0:01:36.681 --> 0:01:37.361 I'm all good. 0:01:37.481 --> 0:01:39.841 I don't know where academy came from. But anyway, that umbrella, 0:01:40.401 --> 0:01:41.081 sorry about that. 0:01:41.601 --> 0:01:44.041 No, no, I'm going to look up what Umbrella Academy is. Now, 0:01:44.921 --> 0:01:47.201 it was a TV show. It's a TV show. 0:01:47.201 --> 0:01:50.081 Remember that. I think my producer had a senior moment 0:01:50.521 --> 0:01:54.041 and umbrella. She brought up some old memory. I'm going 0:01:54.041 --> 0:01:55.441 to dig into that in the break. I'm going to 0:01:55.481 --> 0:02:00.281 say what. Yeah, anyway, now, what's what's your website and 0:02:00.321 --> 0:02:01.961 your your address for people to get in touch and 0:02:01.961 --> 0:02:02.841 see the work that you do. 0:02:03.481 --> 0:02:05.881 That's a great umbrella dot dot z. 0:02:09.241 --> 0:02:16.281 Dot org dot z. So what we want to talk about? Look, 0:02:16.281 --> 0:02:20.361 it's it's interesting one, isn't it? The whole question, the 0:02:20.361 --> 0:02:24.961 whole question about rewarding kids and giving them a kids 0:02:25.361 --> 0:02:30.601 children awards for achievement and things. And as you will 0:02:30.681 --> 0:02:33.361 have seen that there's a story out about school prize 0:02:33.361 --> 0:02:36.761 givings and a question mark over whether these are good 0:02:36.841 --> 0:02:39.881 or bad for children. And there's that school of thought 0:02:39.921 --> 0:02:43.041 that you know, the well, there's a school of thought 0:02:43.081 --> 0:02:45.841 in both directions, and that somehow if you are not 0:02:46.361 --> 0:02:48.721 the kids who are not getting their award, the awards 0:02:49.281 --> 0:02:53.201 maybe dis disheartened or something, and it sends and anyway 0:02:54.041 --> 0:02:58.001 to me. Obviously, surprise givings have been something that have 0:02:58.081 --> 0:03:00.361 been around when I was at school, and I never 0:03:00.361 --> 0:03:02.561 gave them a second thought. Some kids got prizes and 0:03:02.721 --> 0:03:05.641 some didn't, and I didn't really care about it. But 0:03:05.761 --> 0:03:09.401 is there some sort of deeper sort of pearl clutching 0:03:09.441 --> 0:03:10.201 we can do on this? 0:03:14.081 --> 0:03:16.761 Yeah, it's it is a It is a vexed one, 0:03:16.801 --> 0:03:18.921 isn't it like on a bit like you? I think 0:03:19.041 --> 0:03:21.721 in the end of year prizegiving, the way I see 0:03:21.761 --> 0:03:26.441 it is meant to celebrate the big achievements of the year, 0:03:26.721 --> 0:03:29.281 and I reckon there is a time and a place for, 0:03:29.521 --> 0:03:32.041 you know, singling out people who've done well, whether that's 0:03:32.281 --> 0:03:36.801 academically or sporting or culturally, and that's I think. I 0:03:36.841 --> 0:03:39.241 think it's important that we celebrate that, that we recognize 0:03:39.241 --> 0:03:41.761 people that have done really, really really well, because they 0:03:41.841 --> 0:03:44.721 might not get it a lot otherwise. I think there's 0:03:44.721 --> 0:03:49.241 too a place for awarding kids or recognizing kids who participate, 0:03:49.281 --> 0:03:51.041 but that could I reckon that can be done during 0:03:51.081 --> 0:03:54.041 the year that the prize giving. The prize givings are 0:03:54.081 --> 0:03:56.041 sort of like the award it's a bit of the awards, 0:03:56.161 --> 0:03:58.321 the Academy awards. You don't say, well, everybody can get 0:03:58.361 --> 0:04:02.001 a can get an award, Academy award, can't they? It's like, no, 0:04:02.121 --> 0:04:04.041 there are some that we and we and I don't 0:04:04.041 --> 0:04:06.401 think we should shy away from celebrating that success. 0:04:07.721 --> 0:04:10.641 It's a bit like you know, the maybe there is 0:04:10.681 --> 0:04:14.841 a time when kids. It's like with sporting teams that, yeah, 0:04:15.121 --> 0:04:17.721 the kids catch up with this because you know, things 0:04:17.761 --> 0:04:21.241 like player of the week, and the kids are not dumb, 0:04:22.361 --> 0:04:24.761 and at some stage they become aware that there's a 0:04:24.761 --> 0:04:28.321 bit of a merry go round, that it's such and 0:04:28.361 --> 0:04:30.801 such as turn for player of the week. And as 0:04:30.801 --> 0:04:32.601 soon as you turn into that, you might as well 0:04:32.641 --> 0:04:36.561 not bother ya. I mean in the in the teams 0:04:36.561 --> 0:04:39.001 that I sort of was a parent at I think 0:04:39.001 --> 0:04:42.201 we try to. We may have got there may have 0:04:42.201 --> 0:04:44.601 been kids who got it more than once or more often, 0:04:44.681 --> 0:04:47.881 but and we would always look for a reason that 0:04:47.881 --> 0:04:50.041 that player had got it, so it would have a 0:04:50.081 --> 0:04:53.281 tangible way proving it. But kids are not dumb either, 0:04:53.441 --> 0:04:55.681 are they when it comes to I just got that 0:04:55.761 --> 0:04:56.921 because it was my team. 0:04:57.041 --> 0:05:00.681 Yeah, yeah, I like that kind of you know that 0:05:00.681 --> 0:05:03.081 that approach that you're talking about there around you know 0:05:03.121 --> 0:05:05.481 that there's got to be a reason, like, you know, 0:05:05.561 --> 0:05:09.841 especially you know, I think back I coached kid's cricket teams, 0:05:09.881 --> 0:05:12.321 and some of them, you know, they were I think 0:05:12.361 --> 0:05:15.121 my son started when he was about eight or something 0:05:15.121 --> 0:05:17.481 and played till he was in high school and so 0:05:17.601 --> 0:05:19.641 he got recently good. But you saw a whole lot 0:05:19.641 --> 0:05:23.721 of shapes and sizes and levels of ability and kids 0:05:24.241 --> 0:05:26.641 during that time, and some you know, couldn't catch a ball. 0:05:27.921 --> 0:05:30.681 But if they did manage to start catching a ball, 0:05:30.681 --> 0:05:33.441 that might be something worth celebrating and that, you know, 0:05:33.521 --> 0:05:37.161 but they'd be specifically picked out for that. Hey, you know, 0:05:37.241 --> 0:05:40.081 you really improved in your fielding, which is great, and 0:05:40.081 --> 0:05:41.761 that's something to be celebrated as well. 0:05:42.881 --> 0:05:45.321 I think, yeah, but I think we had move of 0:05:45.361 --> 0:05:48.241 the day as well, because if somebody did something spectacular, 0:05:48.401 --> 0:05:50.041 went for something, even if it failed to be like 0:05:50.081 --> 0:05:52.561 your move of the day was you diving to try 0:05:52.561 --> 0:05:54.201 and catch that ball and they didn't make it, that 0:05:54.321 --> 0:05:56.841 was magnificent and they sort of go, yeah, it's cool. 0:05:56.881 --> 0:06:01.201 I really yeah. Yeah, Because there was a time when 0:06:01.761 --> 0:06:04.241 there was a school of thought, I don't know, who 0:06:04.561 --> 0:06:07.681 where it came from, but where it was almost viewed 0:06:07.681 --> 0:06:10.121 to be a cardinal sin to be selecting kids to 0:06:10.161 --> 0:06:12.561 be celebrated ahead of others and their achievements. 0:06:12.801 --> 0:06:13.641 Have we moved? 0:06:14.521 --> 0:06:16.601 I don't think that this is what the story is about. 0:06:16.601 --> 0:06:19.801 But there are things that you probably shouldn't be rewarding 0:06:19.881 --> 0:06:23.321 kids for. But my take on that would be if 0:06:23.361 --> 0:06:25.841 your child makes their bed and helps with the dishes, 0:06:26.161 --> 0:06:27.921 that's not something we you need a badge for it. 0:06:27.961 --> 0:06:30.921 There should be an intrinsic They should learn to do 0:06:31.201 --> 0:06:34.441 lots of things in life simply because hey, I did that. 0:06:34.561 --> 0:06:35.361 How cool is it? 0:06:36.601 --> 0:06:36.841 Yeah? 0:06:36.961 --> 0:06:40.161 Look, I think there's some truth in that. I think though, 0:06:40.201 --> 0:06:43.121 that sometimes when you're trying to get a behavior going 0:06:43.681 --> 0:06:46.361 that isn't there, I don't know, making it, let's say, 0:06:46.361 --> 0:06:50.481 making a bed just because you said that that rewarding 0:06:50.721 --> 0:06:54.001 and sort of in strict psychological terms, which is giving 0:06:54.041 --> 0:06:57.001 them something positive and making increasing the chances that they'll 0:06:57.041 --> 0:06:59.361 do it again. That probably is a useful thing, I think, 0:06:59.361 --> 0:07:01.281 And that's so you're not going to rward them forever. 0:07:01.641 --> 0:07:03.961 But if they don't want to do it, or if 0:07:04.001 --> 0:07:05.561 they don't know how to do it, they're not very 0:07:05.561 --> 0:07:09.921 good at doing it, then giving them something afterwards that 0:07:10.001 --> 0:07:13.601 makes the behavior more likely to occur. Again, that's a 0:07:13.641 --> 0:07:16.641 definition of a psychological definition of a reward. I think it's. 0:07:16.561 --> 0:07:22.961 Useful as opposed to here's a lolly or ye over substantial. 0:07:23.641 --> 0:07:26.561 Yeah, yeah, it's just it's just a recognition and you 0:07:26.601 --> 0:07:29.321 are trying to train a behavior. But I think that 0:07:29.441 --> 0:07:32.561 is different from like a prize giving or or an 0:07:32.601 --> 0:07:36.881 award for participation. Well yeah, one is you're trying to 0:07:36.881 --> 0:07:39.441 get more of a behavior, the other you're recognizing something 0:07:39.481 --> 0:07:42.881 about them. But yeah, I think, I think, I think, Look, yeah, 0:07:42.921 --> 0:07:44.921 going back to that price giving, I really think I 0:07:44.961 --> 0:07:48.841 remember I was I did pretty well at school academically, 0:07:48.841 --> 0:07:50.801 but our school was not the type of school that 0:07:50.881 --> 0:07:52.921 you celebrated being good academic. 0:07:54.041 --> 0:07:56.681 The awards and the price for Latin goes to doogle. 0:07:58.921 --> 0:08:01.081 If only I think they dropped Latin by the time 0:08:01.121 --> 0:08:04.041 I got there, But no, our school was not. There 0:08:04.081 --> 0:08:06.801 was no culture of selling embracing that. And I think 0:08:06.841 --> 0:08:10.201 the only time I ever felt good about my school 0:08:10.241 --> 0:08:12.681 achievement was probably a prize giving once where I got 0:08:12.721 --> 0:08:16.001 a prize and people did clap and celebrate, and I 0:08:16.081 --> 0:08:18.761 was like, oh, okay, once in the year, I feel 0:08:18.761 --> 0:08:21.681 okay about doing well at school, which is a bit 0:08:21.681 --> 0:08:23.801 of a sad in diament on in my high school. 0:08:23.841 --> 0:08:26.401 But that's that's the way it was, and that was 0:08:26.481 --> 0:08:29.281 useful for me. I thought, yeah, I do get recognized 0:08:29.281 --> 0:08:33.601 at some level for doing this in front of. 0:08:33.601 --> 0:08:36.401 Everybody thattually interesting. I got the prize for history when 0:08:36.441 --> 0:08:39.001 I was fifteen, I think, or sixteen or seven. Maybe 0:08:39.001 --> 0:08:43.241 it was seventeen actually, and I don't remember remember feeling anything. 0:08:44.321 --> 0:08:47.121 I sort of like, I don't actually wonder if prizegivings 0:08:47.881 --> 0:08:51.521 are more for the parents in a way, because the 0:08:51.601 --> 0:08:53.481 kids sort of go, yeah, I got this, and they 0:08:53.521 --> 0:08:55.161 sort of wander up and they go cool. I mean, 0:08:55.201 --> 0:08:58.081 I've got a photo of my daughter's at the prize 0:08:58.081 --> 0:09:01.281 giving and they invite them up because they you know, 0:09:01.641 --> 0:09:05.481 it's at a school where they have blistering levels of sess. 0:09:06.961 --> 0:09:09.201 But there's a photo I took where they invite them 0:09:09.241 --> 0:09:11.721 ten up at a time and they're standing there and 0:09:11.761 --> 0:09:18.961 they all look so lum. And when my daughter, our 0:09:19.001 --> 0:09:22.121 daughter's got a couple of awards, and I was thinking, 0:09:22.321 --> 0:09:24.121 maybe the awards more for me, because we were just 0:09:24.161 --> 0:09:28.001 so proud proud of them. Who do you think the kids. 0:09:29.321 --> 0:09:31.361 I definitely think you get that sense of pride as 0:09:31.401 --> 0:09:33.921 a family member and as a parent, and there is 0:09:34.001 --> 0:09:36.481 some I think it and in many ways for kids 0:09:36.521 --> 0:09:40.681 that the awards are often a celebration of that the 0:09:40.761 --> 0:09:43.161 family in a sense, because you know your parents have 0:09:43.241 --> 0:09:48.121 invested a lot. But yes, I guess it's sometimes kids 0:09:48.161 --> 0:09:50.441 can feel a bit embarrassed. Oh my god, I don't 0:09:50.441 --> 0:09:51.801 really want to go with the rest of it in 0:09:51.801 --> 0:09:54.241 the front of the school, and then mom and dad 0:09:54.241 --> 0:09:56.961 are standing there clapping and jeering and the whole rest 0:09:56.961 --> 0:10:00.561 of it. So yeah, probably families getting parents get more 0:10:00.601 --> 0:10:03.441 out of it than than the kids do. I would 0:10:03.441 --> 0:10:04.561 imagine at times. 0:10:05.241 --> 0:10:10.281 We'd love your calls on this about how to get look, 0:10:10.881 --> 0:10:14.081 I don't know, I ask the obvious text question is 0:10:14.121 --> 0:10:17.921 like a prize givings helpful or harmful, But how do 0:10:18.081 --> 0:10:21.921 you get it right when it comes to celebrating success 0:10:22.681 --> 0:10:27.761 versus I don't I think participation awards are probably the 0:10:27.801 --> 0:10:29.801 worst prize you can give to a kid because they 0:10:29.841 --> 0:10:32.641 know they're just being given it for turning up. That 0:10:32.681 --> 0:10:36.001 would be my general rule on it. But I think 0:10:36.361 --> 0:10:38.401 the one that we used to sort of as kids. 0:10:38.961 --> 0:10:41.721 Poor scorn On was that the effort an improvement award? 0:10:41.721 --> 0:10:43.961 But I think these days actually the effort an improvement 0:10:43.961 --> 0:10:45.961 award is probably one of the most significant ones some 0:10:46.081 --> 0:10:48.921 kid who has turned around something. So we'd love your 0:10:48.921 --> 0:10:53.001 calls on this. On eight hundred eighty ten eighty. Do 0:10:53.081 --> 0:10:55.081 you love the prize givings or do you hate the 0:10:55.081 --> 0:10:57.881 fact that they single our excellence and the other kids 0:10:57.881 --> 0:11:01.161 who miss out it just contributes to their sense of 0:11:03.401 --> 0:11:07.081 something inadequacy or something I'm overplaying. I'm overstaining my hand 0:11:07.121 --> 0:11:09.001 on that. But what do you think? Do you like 0:11:09.081 --> 0:11:10.801 prize givings? Are they helpful or harmful? O eight one 0:11:10.841 --> 0:11:13.721 hundred eighty ten eighty text nine to nine till them. 0:11:13.761 --> 0:11:15.321 We'll take a break now and we'll come back with 0:11:15.321 --> 0:11:17.241 your calls if you like. I'd love to hear from you. 0:11:17.521 --> 0:11:19.881 It's eighteen past five news talks he'd be. 0:11:20.721 --> 0:11:23.841 He's saying on a song it is we go along, 0:11:24.841 --> 0:11:29.561 whilcome you glmbo on the name Well in Movado you 0:11:29.641 --> 0:11:34.641 can build a storemat and pretended he has passed round, 0:11:35.961 --> 0:11:39.601 He'll say, are you married? Will send no man, but 0:11:39.721 --> 0:11:43.121 you can do the job. When you're on town letter 0:11:44.601 --> 0:11:45.601 will inspire. 0:11:46.681 --> 0:11:49.681 Ah, Yes, this one's for you. Doogle google Sutherland from 0:11:49.841 --> 0:11:52.681 umbrella dot org. God end z it because I think 0:11:52.721 --> 0:11:54.841 you might have told Tyra and she's trying to make 0:11:54.921 --> 0:11:57.681 up for your company company name wrong. This is a 0:11:57.721 --> 0:12:00.801 bit of Dean Martin, a bit of Christmas. 0:12:01.121 --> 0:12:03.521 Yeah, lovely, isn't it? Classic classic Kroner. 0:12:03.841 --> 0:12:06.601 I like the old of Christmasy crooney stuff. 0:12:06.641 --> 0:12:09.521 It's just yea yeah, I do too. I've got this. 0:12:09.601 --> 0:12:12.921 I've got a cassette tape of a Frank Sinatra Christmas 0:12:12.961 --> 0:12:16.121 Special with Dean Martin coming on as well. It's it's 0:12:16.281 --> 0:12:18.681 it sounds like it's a recording of some sort of 0:12:19.041 --> 0:12:21.521 radio show that they did, but it was a it 0:12:21.521 --> 0:12:23.481 was a different time back then in the fifties. 0:12:23.721 --> 0:12:26.081 Funny thing is he was the one his his his 0:12:26.401 --> 0:12:28.161 sort of persona on stage was the one. He was 0:12:28.161 --> 0:12:30.521 always fond of a drink, but apparently he didn't drink 0:12:30.561 --> 0:12:34.481 very much, and it was Sinatra who drink like for sure. Yeah, 0:12:34.521 --> 0:12:37.721 so they turned the tables on that. Anyway, we're talking 0:12:37.721 --> 0:12:40.721 about prize givings, so let's take your calls on this. 0:12:40.841 --> 0:12:46.321 Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty Daytona. Hello, Hi there, Hello, 0:12:46.641 --> 0:12:47.401 how are you hi? 0:12:47.521 --> 0:12:49.121 Can Yeah, I'm good, Thank you. 0:12:50.401 --> 0:12:52.081 What would you like to share with us about the 0:12:52.241 --> 0:12:53.161 prize givings? 0:12:53.761 --> 0:12:57.481 Yeah, I won the most improved part of a prizegiving 0:12:57.561 --> 0:12:59.841 in high school and it was a bit embarrassing, but 0:12:59.921 --> 0:13:03.201 at the same time that he said that it's an improvement, 0:13:03.281 --> 0:13:04.761 like a something. 0:13:05.561 --> 0:13:08.881 It's true when you got it, what did you Were 0:13:08.921 --> 0:13:11.241 you surprised and were you were you thrilled or were 0:13:11.281 --> 0:13:12.481 you sort of did you sort of. 0:13:14.721 --> 0:13:18.241 Me my cohort, which it just seems like you're you're Yeah, 0:13:18.281 --> 0:13:19.881 it's just not it's kind of looked down. 0:13:21.881 --> 0:13:22.481 How long ago? 0:13:22.641 --> 0:13:22.801 Was that? 0:13:23.561 --> 0:13:28.121 Years ago? 0:13:29.081 --> 0:13:30.881 Okay? Well, and what do you think of it now 0:13:30.921 --> 0:13:32.481 when you look back, or would you would you want 0:13:32.561 --> 0:13:35.401 your family members of yours to get the most improved 0:13:35.441 --> 0:13:37.201 because it's actually pretty good prize when you think of it. 0:13:37.641 --> 0:13:40.641 Yeah, absolutely, I mean that's the means it's an improvement. 0:13:41.121 --> 0:13:42.361 You're stepping up a later. 0:13:42.961 --> 0:13:46.241 Good on it, Good on your thanks for that, Daytona. 0:13:46.521 --> 0:13:48.001 So it's a bit of a bit of a scratchy 0:13:48.081 --> 0:13:49.681 phone line. Then I think Google you might have had 0:13:49.721 --> 0:13:53.001 trouble hearing that that Daytona was saying when she got 0:13:53.041 --> 0:13:55.321 the most Improved awards, she sort of cringed a bit, 0:13:55.361 --> 0:13:57.121 but she's actually quite proud she got it. Looking back 0:13:57.161 --> 0:13:57.921 fifteen years later. 0:13:58.601 --> 0:14:00.681 Yeah, funny, that, isn't it that that when you look 0:14:00.721 --> 0:14:03.001 back on it, go, Actually that was and that's a 0:14:03.041 --> 0:14:05.521 good thing. I reckon, that's really good. You know that 0:14:05.641 --> 0:14:08.241 often in the moment, especially as teenagers, teenagers never like 0:14:08.321 --> 0:14:10.761 to be the center of attention, weirdly because they always 0:14:10.761 --> 0:14:12.321 like to be the center of attention at the same time, 0:14:12.401 --> 0:14:13.961 don't they. But if you put them up up on 0:14:14.081 --> 0:14:17.601 stages like no, no, but actually it does sink in. 0:14:17.801 --> 0:14:20.641 I think Daytona's example sort of showed that it sinks 0:14:20.681 --> 0:14:21.161 in later on. 0:14:21.521 --> 0:14:24.121 I wonder if it depends on the school and the 0:14:24.201 --> 0:14:27.921 sort of community I guess, but I think probably that 0:14:28.041 --> 0:14:30.081 when it came to prize giving, kids who got awards 0:14:30.121 --> 0:14:36.041 for sporting prowess did actually enjoy that. I think we 0:14:36.161 --> 0:14:39.521 are shifting a bit with the appreciating academic success, that 0:14:39.561 --> 0:14:39.881 aren't we. 0:14:40.561 --> 0:14:43.921 Yeah? I think so. My son when he was at school, 0:14:44.001 --> 0:14:46.121 he went to a fairly traditional sort of boys' school, 0:14:46.161 --> 0:14:48.681 and you know Verse fifteen and Blues for cricket, et 0:14:48.721 --> 0:14:51.681 cetera with a thing. But they were really pushing to 0:14:52.361 --> 0:14:55.881 recognize academic excellence and cultural excellence as well. And I 0:14:55.961 --> 0:14:59.041 think that was good because I think sporting always sort 0:14:59.041 --> 0:15:01.721 of gets it. But yeah, the wider and the broader 0:15:01.761 --> 0:15:03.801 you can make it. I think we're going to get better, 0:15:04.121 --> 0:15:06.481 better results if we're if we recognize lots of talents. 0:15:06.721 --> 0:15:09.281 Yeah, what is the I mean, what are the ways too? 0:15:10.721 --> 0:15:12.841 From a psychological point of view, I guess, or not 0:15:12.921 --> 0:15:14.521 from me, you know, just from a human to human 0:15:14.561 --> 0:15:18.401 point of view. But encouraging kids to actually, because there 0:15:18.401 --> 0:15:21.121 are some kids who are motivated by extrinsic things. They 0:15:21.201 --> 0:15:23.721 want to win the prize and they go healthful leather 0:15:23.801 --> 0:15:26.001 for that. I have a daughter who did say when 0:15:26.081 --> 0:15:28.161 she didn't get all the top of prize, she did well, 0:15:28.201 --> 0:15:32.601 but she saw some other girls getting better prizes. I 0:15:33.121 --> 0:15:35.321 actually said to my wife. I've already repeated myself from 0:15:35.361 --> 0:15:37.521 the panel here because I was telling my panelists about this, 0:15:37.601 --> 0:15:39.801 But I said to my wife on the way home, 0:15:39.841 --> 0:15:42.121 I said, I bet you such and such says that 0:15:42.201 --> 0:15:43.921 she might try a bit harder next year because she 0:15:44.361 --> 0:15:47.761 wants to win those prizes. And I was driving around 0:15:47.841 --> 0:15:49.321 and she was in the back seat. She goes, Daddy, 0:15:49.321 --> 0:15:52.121 I might try a bit harder next year's And I said, really, 0:15:52.161 --> 0:15:56.121 why is that? So she's motivated by both, you know, 0:15:56.641 --> 0:15:58.801 her own sense of satisfaction, but she does like the 0:15:58.881 --> 0:16:00.601 extrinsic Yeah. 0:16:00.641 --> 0:16:02.441 Look, I think I think sort of. There are different 0:16:02.521 --> 0:16:06.041 personality styles and there you know, some are really motivated 0:16:06.081 --> 0:16:09.121 by competition and that's great, and some aren't so much 0:16:09.441 --> 0:16:11.881 motivated by competition, and that it just won't quite have 0:16:12.041 --> 0:16:16.081 the same impact the horses for courses. I guess if 0:16:16.121 --> 0:16:18.841 your kid is motivated by that competition, that's probably great. 0:16:19.321 --> 0:16:21.241 They'll probably learn some good lessons along the way. And 0:16:21.281 --> 0:16:24.481 the fact that they can't win all the time, you know, 0:16:24.721 --> 0:16:27.241 they might be I had the experience of going to 0:16:27.681 --> 0:16:30.121 from school to UNI, and UNI is a whole different ballgame, 0:16:30.161 --> 0:16:31.561 and all of a sudden you go, oh, I'm not 0:16:31.921 --> 0:16:34.561 I'm a little fish in a big pool now. But 0:16:34.681 --> 0:16:37.281 that's okay, you can that's that's good learning as well. 0:16:37.401 --> 0:16:38.441 That's good learning. Well. 0:16:38.841 --> 0:16:41.001 I don't know what the stats show in terms of 0:16:41.041 --> 0:16:43.761 the people who become the biggest successes in life, but 0:16:43.881 --> 0:16:48.001 I have a suspicion that it's not necessarily the people 0:16:48.041 --> 0:16:51.401 who rock and roll at school who necessarily turn into 0:16:51.441 --> 0:16:53.561 the biggest successes. I would have thought, in fact, for 0:16:53.681 --> 0:16:56.561 kids who this is what This is why I think 0:16:56.601 --> 0:17:02.961 if you're a naturally talented, gifted child, that the the 0:17:03.081 --> 0:17:06.121 prizes that might flow when you actually haven't much if 0:17:06.161 --> 0:17:08.241 it don't necessarily serve you that well do they? 0:17:09.561 --> 0:17:12.201 Yeah? No, It goes back to your point around you 0:17:12.281 --> 0:17:14.881 know that the prizes for most improved or people that 0:17:14.961 --> 0:17:18.321 have developed the most, because that's rewarding some real hard 0:17:18.441 --> 0:17:20.441 graft there isn't it, rather than a sort of just 0:17:20.761 --> 0:17:24.201 oh I can do this naturally. Yeah? 0:17:24.961 --> 0:17:26.721 How what is the best way to I mean? And 0:17:27.121 --> 0:17:29.921 what this all really comes back to us. We all 0:17:29.961 --> 0:17:32.441 want our kids to do well. This is not about, 0:17:32.481 --> 0:17:34.521 for me, the final year of prize giving. It's about 0:17:34.561 --> 0:17:37.761 their journey through school and recognizing effort. But what do 0:17:37.841 --> 0:17:41.601 we know about the things that actually will motivate children 0:17:42.441 --> 0:17:45.281 to do their best and to enjoy success? 0:17:46.441 --> 0:17:46.681 Yeah? 0:17:47.921 --> 0:17:49.681 Well, I think the school So if we look at 0:17:49.681 --> 0:17:52.321 think about the school, school systems are moving and have 0:17:52.481 --> 0:17:55.161 been for quite a way now, moving away from that 0:17:55.321 --> 0:17:59.561 sort of final exam, the exam being the big thing, 0:17:59.681 --> 0:18:03.401 and there's lots of recognition throughout the year because there's 0:18:03.401 --> 0:18:06.161 lots of opportunities for people for kids to do work 0:18:06.241 --> 0:18:09.281 throughout the year, and university is definitely moving to that 0:18:09.361 --> 0:18:12.121 as well. So I think that is quite helpful for 0:18:12.201 --> 0:18:14.681 a number of kids who because it rewards that kind 0:18:14.681 --> 0:18:17.561 of continual effort rather than maybe a big push at 0:18:17.601 --> 0:18:20.761 the end. And I think that's probably useful for most 0:18:20.881 --> 0:18:23.561 kids really, that that you know, you could you could 0:18:23.641 --> 0:18:25.241 smash it towards the end of the year and get 0:18:25.281 --> 0:18:28.321 a big prize, but actually slow and steady wins the 0:18:28.401 --> 0:18:30.001 race and you're probably building up a whole lot better 0:18:30.041 --> 0:18:33.001 skills if you're awarded throughout the year just for small 0:18:33.081 --> 0:18:35.481 successes rather than waiting for one big one at the end. 0:18:35.641 --> 0:18:38.081 Is that something you really can make an influence influenced 0:18:38.161 --> 0:18:40.361 kids on because there's a part of me that wonders 0:18:40.401 --> 0:18:42.521 whether they are always going to be the ones who 0:18:42.521 --> 0:18:44.761 are slow and steady and do well and that's set, 0:18:45.241 --> 0:18:47.121 you know, that's set in their first few years of 0:18:47.201 --> 0:18:49.001 life really, and the ones who are always going to 0:18:49.001 --> 0:18:51.881 be the late ones who cram and you know, don't 0:18:51.881 --> 0:18:53.361 put the effort in, but then cram and Cram and 0:18:53.401 --> 0:18:55.681 Kram and Cram that's also a personality type. Can how 0:18:55.761 --> 0:18:58.161 much can you change the asse? 0:18:59.281 --> 0:19:01.801 Yeah? I think you can change those essentially. Sure. I 0:19:01.841 --> 0:19:04.041 think we have tendencies to be one or the other, 0:19:04.241 --> 0:19:07.441 you know, a crammer or a slow and steady throughout 0:19:07.481 --> 0:19:11.241 the year. But I think most people have got their 0:19:11.281 --> 0:19:13.681 ability to be changed and shaped a little bit. And 0:19:14.041 --> 0:19:16.161 you probably need to because you're going to go into 0:19:16.681 --> 0:19:18.441 a life and a workforce that you need to be 0:19:18.481 --> 0:19:22.721 a bit adaptable to. But it's definitely changeable. I think. 0:19:22.881 --> 0:19:27.561 I think very few traits psychologically are kind of set 0:19:27.681 --> 0:19:31.401 and fused from day one and can't be changed. Where 0:19:31.441 --> 0:19:33.761 we have lots of impact by what goes on around us, 0:19:33.801 --> 0:19:36.121 or we're impacted lots by what goes on around us. 0:19:36.401 --> 0:19:38.601 Do you remember what I used to motivate you? That's cool? 0:19:40.761 --> 0:19:42.441 I was. 0:19:43.681 --> 0:19:45.801 I think it was the intrinsic motivation of I did 0:19:45.881 --> 0:19:49.681 well on a on a exam, or not even exam, 0:19:49.761 --> 0:19:51.961 but you know, did well on an assignment, and and 0:19:52.761 --> 0:19:55.161 that was good for me because but because I was 0:19:55.201 --> 0:19:57.321 good at it anyway, it was sort of reinforced for 0:19:57.441 --> 0:20:00.601 me that this was something I was good at, and 0:20:01.401 --> 0:20:03.641 so but I did have to keep it quiet. I 0:20:03.681 --> 0:20:06.201 could share with my parents, but I did shit with 0:20:06.401 --> 0:20:10.161 my classmates. I would quickly look at my marking class 0:20:10.201 --> 0:20:11.961 and then quickly put it in my bag so that 0:20:12.041 --> 0:20:12.841 nobody else saw it. 0:20:13.161 --> 0:20:15.401 Really, Oh my goodness, you really were Did you get 0:20:15.401 --> 0:20:17.361