1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 2: I am Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Labor 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 2: leader Chris Hipkins has acknowledged he considered his future in 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 2: politics in the wake of his ex wife's allegations. She 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: made a series of claims in a now deleted private 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: social media post on Sunday, none of which alleges unlawful conduct. 8 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: Being a politician is one of the most public facing 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: roles in our society, but where should the line be 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: drawn between public and private life? Today on the Front Page, 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: political commentator Grant Duncan is with us. First off, Grant, 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: how do you think Chris Hipkins has handled this whole 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: situation thus far? 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: Well, I think he's handled as well as he could 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: be expect. This is clearly an emotionally difficult time for him, 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: and it's come as a bit of an unexpected bombshell. 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: The message that was put on Facebook by his ex wife, 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: he probably wasn't expecting. And so you know, if I 19 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: put myself in his shoes, I would not be feeling 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: good about it. And so, yeah, you know, with a 21 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: bit of empathy for him, I think, yeah, he's handled 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: it pretty well. He has said, for instance, that somewhere 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: that he had thought about standing down and so forth, 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: and that seems to me a pretty reasonable human thing 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: to say out loud, although politicians rarely admit to that 26 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: kind of weakness or vulnerability. He had a little bit 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: of a tearing up there and so forth. But there's 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: still some ways to go though. 29 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: I feel here, yeah, well, what do you think that 30 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: he should do next, or even labor should do next. 31 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: Well, it's very very tricky because you see the problem 32 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: that they face, Chelsea is that labor is heavily dependent 33 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: on women voters, and you know they're save if they're 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: thirty percent in a poll, thirty five percent of women 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: and twenty five percent of men will be supporting labor 36 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: and that's a big gap. So that gender gap and 37 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: party support is really significant at the moment. And you know, 38 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: there's a range of opinion out there, and obviously I 39 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: can't speak for other people's opinions, but there is a 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: range of opinions. So there are some people who will 41 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: strictly want to strictly separate private life and public office, 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: but in reality, in New Zealand, we don't do that. 43 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: We have seen people hounded out of office for often 44 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: quite minor private slip ups in private life. And I 45 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: think for example of Michael Woods and his privately owned 46 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: shares in Auckland International Airport that gotom removed from office 47 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: by Chris Hipkins when he was minister. So that was 48 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: a private matter that the minister hadn't tied it up 49 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: in his private life. He should have, he didn't do it, 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: So private life doesn't actually matter. Yeah, there's a long 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: way to go here, and I think I think generally 52 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: reporters journalists have been pretty respectful. Actually, you know, Hipkins 53 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: asked for privacy for his family. That's been respected. They 54 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: would put his easy going with him in the stand 55 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: up yesterday, I thought, realizing he was going through an 56 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: emotional time. But this is not over yet. And as 57 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: I say, I think a lot of a lot of 58 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: women voters in particular, really do see this personal stuff 59 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: as being political. They don't separate. They don't want to 60 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: separate out the concert or they don't want to see 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: the woman's voice being silenced by a powerful man, basically, 62 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: and they don't separate the personal and the public. And 63 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: certainly what the ex wife was doing in her Facebook 64 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: post was to draw direct direct comparison between private behavior 65 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: and public statements and policies and values. 66 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: Well, it is important, especially of a party leader and 67 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: a former prime minister and a hopeful prime minister again to. 68 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: Have a good character. 69 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: So I suppose that's where we, you know, look into 70 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: the private lives of these people and say, hey, this 71 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: is an actual you know. 72 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 3: We do care. Will this go away for him? 73 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: Do you think is this the end of him being 74 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: a labor leader? 75 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: I don't think it goes away in the sense that 76 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: is the sort of thing that many voters won't forget. 77 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, particularly, as I say, of those women 78 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: voters who may be, you know, thinking do I trust 79 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: this guy? Because a lot of voters are thinking about 80 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: trustworthiness and character, as you put it, and they're looking 81 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: at the leader and weighing up his merits and trustworthiness, promise, 82 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: keeping ethical behavior in private life. All of this matters 83 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: to many voters much more than others. And so no, 84 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 1: it's not over because you know that you can sweep 85 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: this under the carpet, but the doubt is now there 86 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: in people's minds and that doesn't go away. 87 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 3: Ari, how do you think the opposition parties have handled 88 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: this so. 89 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: Far pretty well in the sense that they, as far 90 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: as I can tell, have said nothing about it, and 91 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: they should say nothing about it. It would be really 92 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: inappropriate if any opposing party was to somehow even appear 93 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: to be trying to take advantage of this, and so 94 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: it's really important that they just clam up about it 95 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: and say, no, we don't comment on this at all. 96 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: It would go down the dirty politics route, wouldn't it, 97 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: And that wouldn't be a good look. 98 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 3: That would backfire immediately in this day and age. 99 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the thing is you have to look ahead though, 100 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: to suppose, for instance, a scenario where next year Chris 101 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: Hopkins is Prime Minister and he's going to get asked 102 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: across the floor of House some difficult questions about matters 103 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: to do with family policy, with school lunches or something 104 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: like this, and do you know what I mean? Is 105 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: it just going to shake his confidence and make everyone 106 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: go hmmm, you know, And then the possibility that someone 107 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: and another party says something under parliamentary privilege and it's 108 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: all on again. 109 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: My kids are with my kids are with yours. 110 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, No, she's not in the country. 111 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: Do you accept that the situation could be damaging for labor? 112 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: I hope not. 113 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: Well. 114 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: Public scrutiny over the private lives of politicians really isn't 115 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: anything new, is it. 116 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 3: What are some that come to mind for you? 117 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: Was there? I think we need to look back to 118 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: the Don Brash incident, and I it's going back over 119 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: twenty years now, two thousand and five, when he was 120 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: the leader of the National Party and he was unsuccessful 121 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: in that two thousand and five election. There were a 122 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: number of scandals the Breath so called Brethren scandal for instance, 123 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: that were affecting National at that time. But certainly Don 124 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: Brash was pursued by media quite vigorously about former relationships 125 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: that he that he had had some time before that, 126 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: and there was no holds barred, you know, it was 127 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: treated as fair game by media and people. I think 128 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: the average New Zealander watching was thinking, yeah, this is 129 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: I do think this matters to my confidence in this 130 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: person as a leader. He has since fessed up those 131 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: about those past relationships, so the information about it now 132 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: is pretty public, but at the time, yes, it was. 133 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: It was a pylon onto Don Brash. Lenn Brown, the 134 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: former mayor of Auckland is another case. In this case, 135 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: it was an affair and it was outed by some 136 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: right wing political activists. There was you know, there was 137 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: a known affair. He was a married man. He did 138 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: have an affair. He used council resources in pursuit of 139 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: that affair, notoriously. But my point here really is that 140 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: that happened early on, that was outed early on in 141 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: his second term as mayor. By the end of his 142 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: three year that three year term, he was unelectable. People 143 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: had not forgotten, is my point, Okay, and many Auckland 144 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: is that I spoke to around the traps. Not everyone 145 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: thought it this way, I know, but many Auckland just said, look, 146 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: if his wife and family can't trust him, I can't 147 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: trust him. It was as simple as that for many people. 148 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: When I was looking back as well, I remember, you know, 149 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: the likes of Ian Lee Galloway. He had an inappropriate 150 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: relationship with the former staff You've got Andrew Falloon of 151 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: the National Party. He resigned after sending unsolicited images to 152 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: young women. 153 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: Dare I mention Colin Craig as well. 154 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: So are the stakes different do you think when these 155 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 2: kind of allegations and peering into somebody's personal life when 156 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 2: they are sexual or lurid or immoral in the eyes 157 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: of the public. 158 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: Yes, And of course different people have different morals here 159 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: about sexual conduct. And you know, keep in mind it's 160 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: not just the conservative end of the political spectrum that's 161 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: concerned about this. There's also on the left a strong 162 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 1: feminist point of view as well about powerful men having 163 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: relationships with younger women and or you know, dare i 164 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: mention the former Prince Andrew and so forth. But so, 165 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, this is something that's very prominent politically for people, 166 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: and they are concer earned about it. And so I 167 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: think that the argument that goes which is a reasonable argument, 168 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: you know that Okay, private lives do get messy sometimes. 169 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: Who can put their hand up and say I've never 170 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: had a problem. Maybe some people, but yeah, we all 171 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: understand that. But we and so we can tolerate that 172 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: up to a certain point, I think. And as I say, 173 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, New Zealanders will view this in different ways. 174 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: Some will be more concerned about the connection between the 175 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: private and the public than others. Others will want to 176 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: will be happy to compartmentalize and separate them. But yeah, 177 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: and with social media, of course that this is becoming 178 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: just so much more exposed, so much, so much more 179 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: easily exposed. That's part of the problem. 180 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: Where should the line be drawn, do you think, because 181 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: it's a different you know, it's different when say, a 182 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: man in a powerful position is having a relationship with 183 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: a younger staffer for example, versus you know, when Justice 184 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: minister crashes her car and after emotional distress from a breakup. 185 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: There is all different ends of the spectrum here, and 186 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: the right for the public to know. 187 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: But where should that line be drawn? Maybe when children 188 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: are involved, but they're involved anyway. I mean, I'm sure 189 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: that Brown's children were affected. 190 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: Yep, absolutely they were, and so look, but generally I 191 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: think journalists are pretty responsible. They leave the children out 192 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: of it as much as possible, obviously, and so that's 193 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: just a standard ethical thing. Look, every scandal is uniquely 194 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: scandalous in its own way. It's its own story, and 195 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: so one has to use judgment. And I think generally 196 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: journalists in this country are not generally prying for personal 197 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: sort of dirt. It's usually only when it comes out, 198 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: and certainly in this case, it's the ex wife herself 199 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: who has put it out there. I mean, the journalists, 200 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: we're not digging and in fact, so far they've been 201 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: pretty gentle about the whole thing, really, you know, to 202 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: give you guys a bit of a compliment that our 203 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: journalists are pretty respectful and ethical about this. But yeah, 204 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: and it's a matter of judgment as to when a 205 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: situation has crossed the line that this does reach a 206 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: public interest level, and I think in this case it 207 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: did for two reasons. One, the affected person, the ex wife, 208 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: put it out there herself. There was no journalist digging in. 209 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: And secondly, she was making statements that related to public 210 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: policy and party values and so forth, so she made 211 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: a political statement. And now that it was although she 212 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: deleted that post, it is in the wild now on 213 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: social media, and so I think it does now reach 214 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: that public interest criterion and it is fair game for journalists. 215 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: But credit to the journalists, they haven't been repeating her 216 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: claims the batim. 217 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: And people may wonder why that is the case, where 218 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: they've seen it on readit or on the women's group 219 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: on Facebook. 220 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: They've seen the posts, they've read the claims. 221 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: But there are responsibilities in terms of you know, everyone's 222 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 2: innocent until proven guilty, and he hasn't been accused of 223 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: any illegal activity. 224 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: At least he absolutely so. And also there's, let's face it, 225 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: the fear of the defamation action. But probably I think 226 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: news media have been responsible and not repeating the claims verbatim, 227 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: partly because the person herself removed them from social media. 228 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: She must have done that for a reason. But members 229 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: of the public I think are sort of saying, why 230 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: are you covering this up? Why aren't you so it's 231 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: so difficult. It's a tricky point for media, there isn't it. 232 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: But I think generally, probably you've been making the right choice. 233 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 5: As regards his claim. Just play the claim one more 234 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 5: time for me, Glenn. The claim at the beginning of 235 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 5: yesterday's press conference was the time that. 236 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 4: I've been in politics, I've made a very conscious effort 237 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 4: to keep my private life private and to keep my 238 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 4: family out of the spotlight, particularly my children. You won't 239 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 4: find photos of my kids anywhere on social media. You 240 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 4: won't find me talking about them beyond generic references to 241 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 4: being a parent anywhere in public. 242 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 5: It's simply not true. I'm afraid to tell you the photos. Yes, 243 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 5: he's correct social media, I'm assume he's correct. I'm not 244 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 5: on social media. I don't care. My favorite thing to 245 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 5: do I reference Sir PM's private passions Welcome to My 246 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 5: Home Woman's Weekly of October twenty three. My favorite thing 247 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 5: to do with them is sitting down on the floor 248 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 5: with Lego for a couple of hours, and it goes on. 249 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 5: There are other references, so I think he's probably misled 250 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 5: us slightly. 251 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: Well. 252 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: I saw comparisons to Hepkin's comments about not talking generally 253 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: about his kids in the public sphere to some comments 254 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: he made, perhaps in a woman's magazine about them and 255 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: about being a father. 256 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: They were pretty generic, though, but the last they were there. 257 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: But politicians, especially in an election year, do need to 258 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: appeal to voters, and that most of the time does 259 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: mean a glossy photo shoot in your kitchen or in 260 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: your backyard with your kids or your dog or something. 261 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: So where does where is the line drawn in as 262 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: to how much a politician should or has to or 263 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: you know, has to divulge. 264 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the most outstanding example has to be to 265 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,239 Speaker 1: Sinda Adurn taking her baby into the UN General Assembly 266 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: for the whole world to see. And this was a baby, 267 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: an infant, you know, and everyone kind of got gooey 268 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: eyed about that. But you know, to someone extent, it's like, oh, okay, 269 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: you know that was a good thing to do, maybe 270 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: a cute thing to do. The baby was not able 271 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: to give consent. You know, if you're going to do 272 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: that kind of thing, you then have to be prepared 273 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: for the moments when it doesn't look so good, when 274 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: there's a slip up and suddenly you've involved the children. 275 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: So but to give you another example, I mean, you 276 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: can go to I think Christopher Luxen's website. On the 277 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: page on the National Party website, you'll find photographs often 278 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: with his family. That's fine because I think, you know, 279 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: we do want to see the real person to some extent, 280 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: don't we, And so really really tricky. So politicians are 281 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: constantly using the family or their good family record. And 282 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: Len Brown did this too, by the way, I'm a 283 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: good family man and all the rest of it. So 284 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: they do this when it suits them. But then if 285 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: you're going to complain when it blows up in your face, well, 286 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: you know. 287 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is kind of like a double standard. Hey, 288 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: when politicians use social media to connect with voters to 289 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,719 Speaker 2: humanize themselves, but then shut up shop when questions are 290 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 2: asked about their personal lives. 291 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't know, it's really really tricky, and I 292 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: think but you generally I would say media keep children 293 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: out of it, but the politicians themselves are pushing their 294 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: children forward when it suits them from infancy in some cases, 295 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: as we see, you know, if those children are sort 296 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: of like, you know, relatively grown up, like I think 297 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: mister Luxeon's are, you know, they're in a situation where 298 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: they know what's going on, they can they can consent 299 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 1: and all the rest of it, and they support their 300 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: dad fully, I'm sure. So, you know, I just sort 301 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: of think there's there's obviously a spectrum of judgment. Everyone 302 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: will see it differently. But if politicians are going to 303 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: live by the sword, they're also going to die by 304 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: the sword, and so if they and also I guess 305 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: it needs to be said it's context here in the 306 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: Hipkins case that he did ask clearly for privacy for 307 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: his family. I think from the moment that he became 308 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: labor leader, and that's right twenty twenty three, So he 309 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: did ask for that, and as far as I can see, 310 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: journalists really respected that. And so I think that's great. 311 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: But Unfortunately, we now know what we know. You know, 312 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: we can't unknow it, and it was put out there 313 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: by an affected party, so we have to deal with 314 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: that now it's now public knowledge effectively. 315 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: Do you think, given the level of scrutiny that politicians 316 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: have now and I know that they've always had this 317 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 2: level of scrutiny, but now I suppose it's intensified with 318 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 2: the introduction of social media, if the bar of social 319 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 2: responsibility and the responsibility to be a moral good person, 320 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: if those expectations are too high, do you think that 321 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: we're going to get to a point where people are 322 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: going to be like, I do not want to run 323 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: for office. I care about democracy, I care about changing 324 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 2: the country, but you know what, I don't want anyone 325 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: to see my Facebook posts from two thousand and eight. 326 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: It's a really good point you make, Chelsea, because what's 327 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: going to happen. You know, with the generation that's grown 328 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: up in social media, on social media, they're going to 329 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: reach office holding age soon, if not already, and so 330 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: people will trawl through their past. I think what's going 331 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: to happen, though, is people will just go h man, Okay, 332 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: I did that when I was young and another, do 333 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: you see what I mean. I think it'll create a 334 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: certain kind of toleration. But on the other hand, getting 335 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: back to what we just started there, certainly, I mean 336 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: I have from time to time thought for sort of 337 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: like half a minute about whether I would like to 338 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: be a politician or not. And one of the reasons, 339 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: certainly is that, No, I do not want my private 340 00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: life being scrutinized, thank you very much. And yeah, I 341 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,719 Speaker 1: just couldn't stand it. And so I'm a fairly private 342 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: person in a certain way, So no, I don't want that, 343 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: and I don't want to have to pretend I'm a 344 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: stand up guy who's you know, has a beautiful family 345 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: and all that kind of thing. So no, I the 346 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: scrutiny would be too much for me, And I would 347 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: totally understand if there are other people who feel the 348 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: same way. But social media has made it tougher. But 349 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: on the other hand, I wonder whether in the long run, 350 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: we'll all just have to forgive one another for embarrassing 351 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: posts on Instagram that have us doing something that doesn't 352 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: look very good. 353 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 2: Well, hopefully nobody trulls through ours. Grant that's right, Thanks 354 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: for joining. 355 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: Us, Hey, thank you, Chelsea, has been a pleasure. 356 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 357 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 358 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: at enzid Herald dot cod end z. The Front Page 359 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: is hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine. Dicky 360 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: is our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, 361 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 2: and our executive producer. 362 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: Is Jane Ye. 363 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: Follow the Front Page on the iheartapp or wherever you 364 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and join us next time for another 365 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: look beyond the headlines.